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  1. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by santaman2000 View Post
    That more because combat deaths have been steadily going down for decades (better medical care in the field, better medical technology, better body armor, better overwhelming force against enemies, more use of remotely controlled combat vehicles/aircraft, etc.)

    As I said, YOUNG people commit suicide at inordinate rates (military and civilian) We've just raised a weak generation.
    Actually I read somewhere that contrary to popular belief the peak suicide rate is in middle age. Probably something on the BBC but hey if Alex Jones has not said it first, it can't be so.

  2. #182
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    Suicides Europe/UK (?)
    Highest: medical doctors
    Dental doctors
    Police officers
    Veterinarian doctors

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenThis View Post
    According to the review article you cited 4x more young military personnel commit suicide compared to the base population.
    It's almost as if the training given to the military (and one's ability to complete training) does not prevent the onset of mental illness/PTSD, but rather being in the military seems to exacerbate the potential for mental illness.
    An acquaintance of mine did 20 years in UK armed forces.
    He's a very calm, steady person. We've worked together on a few things.
    He talked about struggling for quite a few years when he came out of the forces. His feeling was that while in the forces, you are directed, you are part of a structure.

    Come out in to civilian life and suddenly there is no direction, you are rudderless. He really struggled with this.

    Feeling rudderless, directionless is a very common reason for depression leading to despair and suicide in young people. If people come out of the forces and are left feeling like these, then of course they will struggle.

    A day when you have a legitimate, practical reason to use an axe is a good day.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenThis View Post
    You seem to have missed my point, I was trying to show that even in the modern day military where combat deaths are relatively rare, and the incidence of traumatic events would also seemingly be rare, the number of suicides (incidents of mental illness) is still very high, especially given the position that those in the military are somehow mentally tougher than the general population. It was also to show that at least some those you accuse of faking are perhaps actually unwell.

    According to the review article you cited 4x more young military personnel commit suicide compared to the base population.
    It's almost as if the training given to the military (and one's ability to complete training) does not prevent the onset of mental illness/PTSD, but rather being in the military seems to exacerbate the potential for mental illness.

    As for a weak generation - I always find that kind of argument - coming as it usually does from the baby boom generation to be a little rich. It can be shown that your generation had it considerably easier than the current generation, but that might be more socio-economics and politics so perhaps should be avoided.
    No. I got your point. I just disagree with it. However your last statement concerning baby boomers (my generation) is absolutely correct. We were, and are, much weaker than our parents' generation. The next two generations after us are succedingly weaker still.

  5. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcharly View Post
    An acquaintance of mine did 20 years in UK armed forces.
    He's a very calm, steady person. We've worked together on a few things.
    He talked about struggling for quite a few years when he came out of the forces. His feeling was that while in the forces, you are directed, you are part of a structure.

    Come out in to civilian life and suddenly there is no direction, you are rudderless. He really struggled with this.

    Feeling rudderless, directionless is a very common reason for depression leading to despair and suicide in young people. If people come out of the forces and are left feeling like these, then of course they will struggle.
    There's a lot of truth in this (the military is a family and a way of life rather than a job) but it has nothing to do with mental illness.

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurentius View Post
    Actually I read somewhere that contrary to popular belief the peak suicide rate is in middle age. Probably something on the BBC but hey if Alex Jones has not said it first, it can't be so.
    I've also read that senior suicides are creeping up, but I haven't seen where anything has yet surpassed youth suicides.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenThis View Post
    Are you trolling or what?....[/QUOTE ]

    Yes, its what he does.
    No. Just stating truthfully my opinion. I won't apologize that they don't fit a European mold.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by santaman2000 View Post
    No. Just stating truthfully my opinion. I won't apologize that they don't fit a European mold.
    British mold.

    I struggled too upon leaving the army. Missed the structured life, the unit pride.
    Not cool stepping from an officer position to a being a student nobody trusts writing your name correctly on a piece of paper. Took me years to accept it.

    Still miss it, 35 years later.


    I

  9. #189

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    To troll, also known as trolling = to trail bait or a lure behind a boat in the hope that something rises from the deep and bites it!

    Someone who trolls is not "a troll". A troll is a creature from children's nursery rhymes that lives under bridges (or in caves) and is partial to a bit of goat.

    Modern net idiom is wrong, created as it was by the marginally literate teenage technophile, most of whom were unlikely to crawl out of their computer caves long enough to look at a lake, much less take interest in catching fish from it. . I would hope that here, at least, folk would know the difference.

    Now that I have got that bit of pedantry off my chest ....

    What are you lot like?!?

    I reckon that much of the discord in this thread could have been avoided if people had taken more care to post their opinions as opinions, and not imply that their opinions were fact. Over and over the subtext message that I see is "I am just stating my opinion, I am entitled to it, as you are to yours...its just that yours is wrong!".



    Anyway. If you can't resist carrying on this slow motion train wreck of a thread, please avoid personal sniping, and anything more about religion or politics. Some posts have been over the line already.

    Regards.
    Chris

    Being lost is a state of mind, not a state of place.

    You can spend time, and you can spend money. Sometimes you can end up spending both, but you will never get anywhere without committing to spending at least one or the other....Sometimes money is cheaper than time.

  10. #190
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    Suicides Europe/UK (?)
    Highest: medical doctors
    Dental doctors
    Police officers
    Veterinarian doctors
    I understand that farmers also have a relatively high instance of suicide.

    The first four isn't totally unexpected. They are all potentially highly stressful occupations, where even the training is one of constant stress and the need to attain new skills, etc rapidly. There are social pressures from an often tiring and changing work schedule, and if your a doctor or a policeman, your going to see some pretty horrible stuff. Family life can be tough to maintain, in part because such jobs often end up being almost someones whole world - they end up 'married to the job'.

    There is also the pressure of social rank - you have a position that needs to be lived up to, and any slippage, for whatever reason, can seen as a dreadful blow, and therefore possibly a trigger.

    And there is one more thing - access to means. Doctors and dentists have access to drugs, and know how to use them. Same goes for vets, but they will also be required to put down animals, so they have extra stuff as well. Policeman might not have access to drugs/guns in the same way, but they know how people can die.

    Farmers? A stressful activity, often relatively self-contained, where your running in effect a business, and one where one bad year or a lost contract might mean the end. There was a report some years ago which also pointed out something else - if your running a family farm, your not just running a business, its a family livelihood perhaps going back generations - you dont want to be the one that loses the farm. And unlike most jobs or businesses, its one that is more likely to get passed down through the family, train at agricultural college, etc. Most of us dont think 'I'm not cut out to be an accountant, like my dad, and his dad, I'm letting down the family', etc. For a farmer, that might be very different. And there is access to shotguns, nasty chemicals, etc.

    Interesting posts about ex-forces people are how they cope. Again, there have been reports about how people cope in civvie street, and that loss of structure is often noted, and the social network that goes with it (ex-prisoners have the same problem, and find it difficult to cope). Loss of authority or status can be problematic, and alcohol can also be a problem - drink is often relatively cheap and available, and is socially acceptable (and has been since at least the time of Kipling). This has been regularly flagged http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...e-9350078.html , but you can find article from this year saying the same thing. And its not just the UK - the US military has similar problems https://www.drugabuse.gov/publicatio...se-in-military .

    Alcohol is also a way to deal with stress, and its long been pointed out that the Army doesn't deal with the PTSD as well as it should, and that also has an impact after people leave the forces. Add possible problems of depression due to leaving a structured life, and thats a dangerous situation for many.

    We need to get people to talk about their feelings more, be more open about mental health, better at dealing with it when its recognised, and offering people better support long term.

  11. #191
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    Farmers in UK had a hellish time after the Foot/mouth fiasco.
    I know that many commited suicide in the years after that.

    Yes, Doctors of all kinds have the means to a drug assisted suicide, but it is quite unusual they do. The normal ways ( hanging, shot,) are more common.

    5: Financial services
    6: Real estate agents
    7: Electricians
    8: Lawyers
    9: Farmers
    Last edited by Janne; 14-09-2017 at 22:52.

  12. #192
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    I sense that many or most of you are still working. You will remember this thread when you retire.
    For the very first time in your life, there is nobody rattling your cage or yanking on your chain.
    More or less, you get to decide what to do with your time. No cheapshots using SWMBO, either.

    I watched colleagues retire after I left. The job defined so many of them, they didn't know what to do next.
    They had avoided outside interests, hobbies or sports, they were totally lost. Not at all self-propelled.

    Hindsight still surprises me how many simply withered away, got sick, died or took their own lives.

    Think it over. That lack or loss of structure is coming when you retire. Make a plan and never stick to it.
    I had a list of things that I was going to do when I retired and not one of them has happened!
    I'm busy doing totally different things that I had never thought of. And I sleep well for it.

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janne View Post
    Suicides Europe/UK (?)
    Highest: medical doctors
    Dental doctors
    Police officers
    Veterinarian doctors
    I'm not sure where you found these statistics. This link would seem to suggest that in fact medical professionals have a low rate of suicide in the UK : https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...on-among-males

    I lost a friend to suicide this month. Ex-army, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. I don't think that they "couldn't cope" , I know that they had an illness; albeit a mental illness. If they had died of cancer, I wouldn't judge them for being weak. At the moment that they took that most terrible tragic action, their mind was impaired. They were not able to think rationally. They died of mental illness.


    Z
    "Ne męg werig mod wyrde wišstondan ne se hreo hyge helpe gefremman."

  14. #194
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    my condolences Sir

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    From www.mentalhealthdaily.com. Top 11 professions with highest suicide rates.

    I just did a random search.

    My condoleances, may your friend get rest and peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zingmo View Post
    I'm not sure where you found these statistics. This link would seem to suggest that in fact medical professionals have a low rate of suicide in the UK : https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulat...on-among-males

    I lost a friend to suicide this month. Ex-army, but I'm not sure how relevant that is. I don't think that they "couldn't cope" , I know that they had an illness; albeit a mental illness. If they had died of cancer, I wouldn't judge them for being weak. At the moment that they took that most terrible tragic action, their mind was impaired. They were not able to think rationally. They died of mental illness.


    Z

  16. #196
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    Ah yes. Your article is based on figures from NIOSH, that is from the US. It actually states "Oddly enough, contrasting evidence has emerged in countries like Britain that indicates the opposite trend to be true: occupations requiring lower skill tend to carry increased rates of suicide."

    Maybe you should move back!

    Z
    "Ne męg werig mod wyrde wišstondan ne se hreo hyge helpe gefremman."

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    It is strange how people behave differently in different countries.
    In Sweden Dentists and other doctors are close to the top.

    I guess maybe the way statistics are done is what makes the difference?
    Also how they interpret the death.
    Many single traffic accidents are suicides. Or ayttempts of one.

    Yes, in Sweden (at least) doctors do use drugs.

    I checked the official Swedish statistics.

    Also in Sweden the recommendations in a mass casualty situation is similar to the Uk one. Get away or hide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zingmo View Post
    Ah yes. Your article is based on figures from NIOSH, that is from the US. It actually states "Oddly enough, contrasting evidence has emerged in countries like Britain that indicates the opposite trend to be true: occupations requiring lower skill tend to carry increased rates of suicide."

    Maybe you should move back!

    Z

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    Quote Originally Posted by C_Claycomb View Post
    To troll, also known as trolling = to trail bait or a lure behind a boat in the hope that something rises from the deep and bites it!

    Someone who trolls is not "a troll". A troll is a creature from children's nursery rhymes that lives under bridges (or in caves) and is partial to a bit of goat.

    Modern net idiom is wrong, created as it was by the marginally literate teenage technophile, most of whom were unlikely to crawl out of their computer caves long enough to look at a lake, much less take interest in catching fish from it. . I would hope that here, at least, folk would know the difference.

    Now that I have got that bit of pedantry off my chest ....

    What are you lot like?!?

    I reckon that much of the discord in this thread could have been avoided if people had taken more care to post their opinions as opinions, and not imply that their opinions were fact. Over and over the subtext message that I see is "I am just stating my opinion, I am entitled to it, as you are to yours...its just that yours is wrong!".
    Thats wrong.The internet troll is the same as the old hill troll, or bridge troll. Quite often people say "Dont feed the troll", ie dont respond to an obvious wind up attempt.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    The above report states this quite clearly.
    The fishing reference is another way of looking at it, but clearly wrong, no doubts about it.

    If you can provide proof otherwise, ill certainly pretend ive looked at it.

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    I find it upsetting where the English speaking people have taken a mythological Scandinavian creature and use it in a negative meaning.

    You guys should invent a new word.

  20. #200
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    Yeah, Janne, they did. No shortage of them.

    Called a "Walt." Here, just somebody who is all hat and no cattle.

  21. #201
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    Shakespeare: All talk and no action.
    ?


  22. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robson Valley View Post
    I sense that many or most of you are still working. You will remember this thread when you retire.
    For the very first time in your life, there is nobody rattling your cage or yanking on your chain.
    More or less, you get to decide what to do with your time. No cheapshots using SWMBO, either.

    I watched colleagues retire after I left. The job defined so many of them, they didn't know what to do next.
    They had avoided outside interests, hobbies or sports, they were totally lost. Not at all self-propelled.

    Hindsight still surprises me how many simply withered away, got sick, died or took their own lives.

    Think it over. That lack or loss of structure is coming when you retire. Make a plan and never stick to it.
    I had a list of things that I was going to do when I retired and not one of them has happened!
    I'm busy doing totally different things that I had never thought of. And I sleep well for it.
    I would say for sure that redundancy in his fifties killed my dad. Yes he died from natural causes if that is what you can call a heart attack, but I have no doubt it was the way his life fell apart after losing his job, never having been out of work for long, that added to stress and led him to drink even more than he did before. My brother was retired through ill health at the same age, but I think his story will be different, he is single to start with so no marriage to break up, and he seems to have no end of things to fill his time. Just so long as he does not go anywhere near the DWP he will be fine, though heaven knows what he is living on.

    Me? well suicidal thoughts are ok so long as you do not act on them. All hell broke lose recently when I accidentally told the truth to the mental health crisis team, you see they go into a right panic if you mention the S word, all I wanted was a little help dealing with my psychotic neighbour, that is my world, right bonkers it is, and I think I am entitled to say that without offending anybody because I have a long history of depression going back to the 1980s.

  23. #203
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    Terrible to watch people come unravelled. But it never fails to amaze me how much work has been replaced by robotics.
    95% of people are aware of only 5% of jobs. Lost it? Get some aptitude testing done. Lots of it. Talk it out.
    There 's every chance that some new and strange work is just what you can do.

    I've worked with a few people who really did have to reinvent themselves to keep a job.
    The retraining was hard to watch but they brought it off.

    I get discouraged but I don't think I ever get depressed, really.
    Right now, I'm happy to watch my grapes getting ready for harvest in the next 10 days.

    There are always far too many grouse and geese and turkeys which need to be shot and eaten.

  24. #204
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    We are truly going Off Topic, but what the heck......

    My view on suicide is maybe different from most Western Culture people. I do not see it as a sin, or something to be ashamed off. I have a more Eastern view.

    Mental problems are (still) a huge stigma. So wrong. Everybody is OK talking about their Erectile problems, but nobody wants to talka bout their mind.

    I have mental problems on my fathers side. A couple of suicides in the past. I believe that was why my dad became a Psychiatrist then 'just for fun' he took a psychology degree when he retired.

    I strongly believe our Mind can cause problems with our Body. Psychosomatic problems are now a large research subject.

    My army buddy, that broke down and had to quit, almost did a S. Only our winter survival training saved him.
    I took him in and me and my wife helped him rebuild his mental health.
    His breaking straw was that a long term ( 10 years +) GF left him.

  25. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trig View Post
    Thats wrong.The internet troll is the same as the old hill troll, or bridge troll. Quite often people say "Dont feed the troll", ie dont respond to an obvious wind up attempt.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    The above report states this quite clearly.
    The fishing reference is another way of looking at it, but clearly wrong, no doubts about it.

    If you can provide proof otherwise, ill certainly pretend ive looked at it.
    You are welcome to ignore this reference and my logic.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/troll

    saying "don't feed trolls" is simply an extension of people having misinterpreted the original meaning of the word. Consider what the person "trolling" an Internet forum does, they cruise around dropping provocative or enticing comments in order to bait a rise out of someone. One would do better to say that one should not rise to the bait, that the person is obviously trolling for reactions.

    none of the descriptions of trolls relating to ugly cave dwellers bears much relation to what people do on the Internet, posting rubbish to annoy and provoke others.

    the problem with urban dictionary definitions is that they describe how words are (miss)used today, they have no interest in whether, why or how those words have been twisted over time. They are good for decoding what is meant today, but that's about it.
    Chris

    Being lost is a state of mind, not a state of place.

    You can spend time, and you can spend money. Sometimes you can end up spending both, but you will never get anywhere without committing to spending at least one or the other....Sometimes money is cheaper than time.

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    Is 'being a Devils Advocate' count as 'being a troll' ?

  27. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janne View Post
    Is 'being a Devils Advocate' count as 'being a troll' ?
    Probably, this is teh interwebs after all.

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    if it is it is quite strange, as it is an established way to promote fruitful discussion. The Vatican does it quite a lot in determining if a person is worthy of being upgraded in the Christian version of the Samsara.

  29. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by Janne View Post
    if it is it is quite strange, as it is an established way to promote fruitful discussion. The Vatican does it quite a lot in determining if a person is worthy of being upgraded in the Christian version of the Samsara.
    Topic drift whatever but I have no clue what "Samsara" is but I do know this, that the term "Devils Advocate" does come from the Vatican, that whenever a Saint was promoted according to the rules about miracles and what have you, there was a priest appointed to put the counter argument from the Devil's point of view as it were, hence the term arose.

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    Samsara is the Hindu 'wheel of life'. Where your actions determine what happens next.
    Not entirely similar of course as the Hindu religion is more refined over the millenia, but the Christian idea is kind of similar. Really bad boy - goes to Hell. Bad boy - Purgatory. Good boy - heaven.
    Not sure what happens to those Hell dwelling souls at the day of Resurrection though. I missed that lesson at Confirmation teaching I think.

    The whole idea is to make people behave decently towards each other.
    Last edited by Janne; 15-09-2017 at 22:35.

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