Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[Martyn]

cheers martyn. thanks for the reply. as i see it . it all comes down to the attitude of the officer other than a point of law. if 15000 scots fans turned up at say a world cup football match to support their own national team dressed in full scottish national dress and an officer that got up that day in a bad mood would arrest them all on the grounds of being tooled up. even though its not an offence to wear national dress and they havent actually committed an offence but because some officer "rightly assumes" they are all going to knife the opponents fans?how can he rightly assume when no criminal act has been committed.surely it should be unrightly assumes as there is no evidence of a crime or intent of a crime

Sorry, I disagree. I think if someone takes a knife to a football match (even as part of a national costume), then they are probably taking it as a weapon. I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that and I think an arrest for it is perfectly reasonable.

Think of it the other way, if the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and 20 people got stabbed, you'd probably be wanting to know why the hell they let them into a potentially violent and volatie situation with deadly weapons in full view.

If the cops let 1000 scotts into a footie match with knives in their socks and no one got stabbed, it'd be a blimmin miracle - regardless of whether or not they were wearing skirts.

[stotRE]

I carry a scramseax every day for religious reasons,if i die from an accident i want to go to Valhalla and not Hel.If i wasn't carrying my scramseax i dont think that Bragi would allow me in.

I,ve been stopped several times by the police but when i explain myself they smile and send me on my way.

Some may see me as bringing unneccesary attention to Asatru but this is what i believe and why should i dilute my religious beliefs to suit a society that has allowed its young total freedom from all responsibility.

They reap what they sow and now their knees are jerking.What next?

A knife ban?

That would be about as effective as the handgun ban

I'll burn my soapbox now.

Hail Odin!

[running bare]

ahh , but on the assumption that people wearing national or religious dress are going to commit offences then why have the exemptions in law? obviously the LAW does not percieve them to be a threat? so why should a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer come to assume that he knows better than the law he is paid to uphold? if that is the case every officer on the beat is a high court judge?

[monkey_pork]

A Sikh can carry a kirpan because his religion requires it of him

Now, I grant you I may have imagined this, but ... I'm sure I read somewhere of a discussion being had within the Sikh community about having a kirpan tattoo in an iron bearing ink, as this form may no less represent the meaning of the kirpan, than does a carried version, but one that doesn't raise any legal question.

My apologies if I have simply got that wrong, or it misrepresents the kirpan in anyway, but it seems to have stuck in my mind, and seems kinda relevant.

[Martyn]

ahh , but on the assumption that people wearing national or religious dress are going to commit offences then why have the exemptions in law? obviously the LAW does not percieve them to be a threat? so why should a LAW ENFORCEMENT officer come to assume that he knows better than the law he is paid to uphold? if that is the case every officer on the beat is a high court judge?

Because it's about context.

There are threatening and volatile contexts and there are passive and peacful ones.

The law says you can carry a knife in public, so long as the context is passive, peaceful and reasonable.

The law says you cannot carry a knife in volatile and potentially violent situations.

That seems reasonable to me.

You are surely not saying you would support a legal system that would allow 1000 scotts into a celtic v rangers match, openly carrying daggers in thier socks? I'm sorry, but I think any sane person would agree there absolutely has to be a law to stop that.

The law is structured as it is, because it would be utterly impossible for the law to draft a list of precise circumstances where knives are OK and where they are not. Instead, it says "cops, feel free to use your noodle, allow it where it's reasonable and arrest em where it isnt". The courts will make the final judgement as to whether or not the cops judgement was on the money and either set em free or bang em up. I actually think it's a pretty good system. At least I cant think of a better one.

[Martyn]

Now, I grant you I may have imagined this, but ... I'm sure I read somewhere of a discussion being had within the Sikh community about having a kirpan tattoo in an iron bearing ink, as this form may no less represent the meaning of the kirpan, than does a carried version, but one that doesn't raise any legal question.

My apologies if I have simply got that wrong, or it misrepresents the kirpan in anyway, but it seems to have stuck in my mind, and seems kinda relevant.

As I said in the post you have quoted, there is some debate as to what actually constitues a kirpan. Some Sikhs have argued that carrying a tiny, completely blunt - soft iron kirpan is OK, I can see the tatoo argument is along those lines. Some Sikhs say it must be sharp and functional. Untill the theological debate is settled, the legal one will continue to run.

[Abbe Osram]

Following on from Stovies "So how does it affect you" thread, I thought I would ask, what reasons would you give to a policeman for carrying your knife ?
I nearly always have a knife with me, usually my leatherman wave, but if I was suddenly stopped in a street and a knife was found on me, I may not be able to come up with a convincing reason for carrying my knife and may have it taken off me. I am the last sort of person to use a knife on another person, but I find having a knife always useful. So do you have any good reasons I could use....................Jon

Think about it, here up in the north of Lappland where most guys have a knife dangling from their belt. They came up with the same law that you shall not have a knife in public places. When I go in the shopping center or gasolin station my knife is dangling from my belt and none said anything to me.

I dont care what the law is. But I would not have a knife on my belt in Stockholm or a big city either.

cheers
Abbe

[running bare]

section 1 of the offesive weapons act. This makes it illegal for you to carry any item for use as a weapon, or for intent to use as a weapon.

not trying to be obtuse or anything just pointing out the flaw of assumption here.how can a person prove that you INTEND to use any item as a weapon?im digressing from knives here. BUT how many people at a footie match carry keys,pens and newspapers/programs? how can any person say that they intend to use these items as weapons?seemingly everyday items, but remember the millwall brick made out of a newspaper? or the girl who killed her boyfriend i believe it was with her car keys?and no doubt the astute of you out there can see how a pen/pencil can be used as a weapon now just because you havet thought how to use these every day items as weapons doesnt mean that a police officer doesnt see them as such? now do you see where it comes down to the pc's attitude there is several items that you are all probably wearing except nudists that can be construde as " Any item for use or intent for use as a weapon" how can you prove you never intend to use said items as weapons? have the pc's and judges become mindreaders? scary thought but think about the uses for a while and surprise yourselves

[Martyn]

Think about it, here up in the north of Lappland where most guys have a knife dangling from their belt. They came up with the same law that you shall not have a knife in public places. When I go in the shopping center or gasolin station my knife is dangling from my belt and none said anything to me.

I dont care what the law is. But I would not have a knife on my belt in Stockholm or a big city either.

cheers
Abbe

Yeah, it's all about context Abbe. Actually, in the UK it would be legal to carry a knife up the hills, if they lived the kind of life they do in N Lappland, while at the same time illegal to carry in cities for no good reason. The UK law lets the cops choose what is reasonable and either let em go or arrest em accordingly. It's not a bad system.

I think the problem people have with it, is that it's all up to the individual cop as to what is reasonable and what isnt. If you get a cop who is having a bad hair day, you could fall foul of his bad mood. People see that as a bit too powerful. Though having said that, if the cop arrested someone unfairly, the courts would throw it out and the cop would get a good telling off.

[running bare]

where in uk law does it state it applies to towns and cities and not in the hills?

[Martyn]

section 1 of the offesive weapons act. This makes it illegal for you to carry any item for use as a weapon, or for intent to use as a weapon.

not trying to be obtuse or anything just pointing out the flaw of assumption here.how can a person prove that you INTEND to use any item as a weapon?

The cop doesnt prove it and isnt required to prove it. He just has to reasonably suspect it in order to arrest for it. It's then up to the courts to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Is it reasonable to arrest someone with a dagger at a football match? I think it is. Then it's up to the courts to decide. If the defendant can make a good argument, they might let him off. If he cant, they might lock him up.


Not sure where we are going with this really? You might not like the restrictions the law puts on you, but the law is reasonable.

[Abbe Osram]

Yeah, it's all about context Abbe. Actually, in the UK it would be legal to carry a knife up the hills, if they lived the kind of life they do in N Lappland, while at the same time illegal to carry in cities for no good reason. The UK law lets the cops choose what is reasonable and either let em go or arrest em accordingly. It's not a bad system.

I think the problem people have with it, is that it's all up to the individual cop as to what is reasonable and what isnt. If you get a cop who is having a bad hair day, you could fall foul of his bad mood. People see that as a bit too powerful. Though having said that, if the cop arrested someone unfairly, the courts would throw it out and the cop would get a good telling off.

Is sensible to me why would a town boy need a big knife on his belt?
I would respect that, after that mad guy in Berlin last night stabbing 30 people I understand they get a bit tense.

Cheers
Abbe

[Martyn]

where in uk law does it state it applies to towns and cities and not in the hills?

It doesnt state anything in UK law except context.

If the people in the hills lived like they do in northern lappland, by hunting and fishing and everyone needed a knife as part of their daily life, the law in the UK would (in fact does) see carrying one under those circumstances as reasonable ...and therefore legal.

In a city, you dont need to hunt and fish in order to feed yourself, or do anything that really requires a knife on a regular basis. So the law would see open carry in such a context as illegal.

It's exactly the same as carrying a knife for bushcraft in the woods is legal, but carrying one in Tesco's is illegal.

It's all about context.

It's a moot point, because we dont have that culture here. I was just using it as an illustration for Abbe.

[running bare]

im just pointing outthat its assumption of an officer without proof and the term any item and as has been shown any item on you everyday can be classed as a weapon. you could be talking with a person and gesticulating with a pen in your hand that you have been using to do a crossword and an officer at a distance thinks that you could use it as a weapon , your arrested,go to court possibly loose your job and livelyhood on the assumption of a officer. how can you prove otherwise? just because you didnt use it doesnt mean that it couldnt be used,

just pointing out the pitfalls of knee jerk laws. that have not been thought out.has it stopped or cut down on the crimes ?no.

[Martyn]

im just pointing outthat its assumption of an officer without proof and the term any item and as has been shown any item on you everyday can be classed as a weapon. you could be talking with a person and gesticulating with a pen in your hand that you have been using to do a crossword and an officer at a distance thinks that you could use it as a weapon , your arrested,go to court possibly loose your job and livelyhood on the assumption of a officer. how can you prove otherwise? just because you didnt use it doesnt mean that it couldnt be used,

just pointing out the pitfalls of knee jerk laws. that have not been thought out.has it stopped or cut down on the crimes ?no.

Well if you take a dagger to a footie match, maybe you deserve to loose your job for "felony stupid" as the 'mercans say. Equally, a lock knife in a nightclub will get you a Darwin award. People need to be smarter than that.

I've never heard of somone getting arrested for gesticulating with a pen, let alone being convicted for it. But yes, it's up to a police officer to make a judgement about you and your behaviour and yes, they could be wrong.

No police officer needs proof of any crime, murder, theft, whatever in order to make an arrest, they just need reasonable suspicion. They dont need to prove intent, they just need to suspect it ...and they could be wrong.

running bare, I think you are just raging against the machine. I think I've done a good job of explaining the law in a pretty concise way. If you are determined to rant, then there is little point in me trying to explain anything. Fundamentally, these laws take control away from you as an individual, supposedly for the better interests of society as a whole. There is nothing anyone can do to change that.

[ilan]

unfortunatly we have to live with those knee jerk laws . What is a knife ? a sharp or pointed object ? how sharp ect at the end of the day you have to convince 12 people of your innocence irespective of the arresting police .

[ilan]

[It's exactly the same as carrying a knife for bushcraft in the woods is legal, but carrying one in Tesco's is illegal.
Just out of intrest is it legal to carry a knife on ones person on public land / what good cause have you ? for you should not cut wild plants or trees etc

[bogflogger]

It might be worth pointing out, that people have been sucessfully prosecuted under the Offensive Weapons Legislation, for using items such as Carrots, Turnips and even a polystyrene cup of hot coffee.

It is all about context and intent.

If you are behaving responsibly and conforming with Section 139 of the CJA, then you have all the Good Reason you require to carry your bushcraft knives/axe- even on Public Transport.

[falcon]

[It's exactly the same as carrying a knife for bushcraft in the woods is legal, but carrying one in Tesco's is illegal.
Just out of intrest is it legal to carry a knife on ones person on public land / what good cause have you ? for you should not cut wild plants or trees etc

Surely these problems can be overcome with careful thought ?.........on public footpaths on the hill or anywhere else remotely "public", a knife should be kept safely tucked away in a rucksack. After choosing a campsite......in all likelihood far from the madding crowd, the knife can safely be brought out and put to its intended use.

[running bare]

you got me wrong im not raging against the machine. just the fact that laws can be contradictory and as we have all assumed they are aimed at knives but as pointed out any item covers a multitude of things. some quite innocent ,everyday items and as i say it boils down to the guy on the beat ,and his perseption of a person

[JonnyP]

Wow.........I leave the computer for a wee while and..............Thanks for all your responces.
I work as a builder and need a knife often, but why do you need it in a pouch on your belt, says the officer, if I cannot think of a good reason quickly and convincingly, I am arrested.
I am a bushcrafter and I have a pukko on my belt, while in the woods, when I cross a footpath, where I bump into an off duty officer walking his dog, who incidentely, has just had a row with the Mrs and then spots my knife. If I cannot come up with a good reason for carrying it, arrested again.
I am no good in situations like that. If someone challanged me, I would make goldfish impersinations at them. Yes Martyn you are right I am looking for a get out of jail free card, but more than that, I started this thread to ask for any reasons that people may of used when confronted by the law, so that I could have a bit more experience and confidence, when (if ever) approached by the law myself.
I am glad I started this thread though as I have learnt a lot from it, and I thank you all................Jon

[stotRE]

you got me wrong im not raging against the machine. just the fact that laws can be contradictory and as we have all assumed they are aimed at knives but as pointed out any item covers a multitude of things. some quite innocent ,everyday items and as i say it boils down to the guy on the beat ,and his perseption of a person

Exactly,if your as high as a kite and waving a knife around the police will most likely spray you with CS and take you down.

The police usually stop and search people who are known too them i.e. scroates (criminals.

[bogflogger]

Jon, have a look at the Law Forum over on British Blades, that should answer all of your questions.

[Wayland]

The police usually stop and search people who are known too them i.e. scroates (criminals.

And Vikings with long hair apparently.

[Martyn]

Wow.........I leave the computer for a wee while and..............Thanks for all your responces.
I work as a builder and need a knife often, but why do you need it in a pouch on your belt, says the officer, if I cannot think of a good reason quickly and convincingly, I am arrested.
I am a bushcrafter and I have a pukko on my belt, while in the woods, when I cross a footpath, where I bump into an off duty officer walking his dog, who incidentely, has just had a row with the Mrs and then spots my knife. If I cannot come up with a good reason for carrying it, arrested again.
I am no good in situations like that. If someone challanged me, I would make goldfish impersinations at them. Yes Martyn you are right I am looking for a get out of jail free card, but more than that, I started this thread to ask for any reasons that people may of used when confronted by the law, so that I could have a bit more experience and confidence, when (if ever) approached by the law myself.
I am glad I started this thread though as I have learnt a lot from it, and I thank you all................Jon

It's dead simple Jon.

First of all, remember that a police officer needs a good reason to suspect you are a criminal before they stop you. They cant just search you because they feel like it.

Then remember, if you actually are using the knife for something, work or whatever. You probably have a good reason. Tell the cop and all will be well.

If you dont have a reason for having the knife, then dont carry one. It's illegal.

Or, carry one that is allowed by law, a sub 3" folding knife that doesnt lock.

Lastly, be sensible. Never carry any knife into volatile and risky situations or large public gatherings, such as pubs, nightclubs, football matches etc. Such situations increase your likelyhood of being arrested for posession of an offensive weapon, regardless of how long the blade is, or whether or not it has a lock.

Do all that and you should have nothing to worry about.

But if you ignore that and want to carry a lock knife or fixed blade, just because you feel like it and wherever you feel like it ...well you are on your own. You are choosing to break the law and you must take your chances. There are no convenient excuses. Cops are not thick, they will see straight through some half-baked excuse and arrest you regardless. If you fail to convince the court, you'll be looking at 2 years. Your choice.

My advice? Carry a knife when you have a good need for one, leave it at home when you dont. If you cant think of a good reason, then you havent got one.

Basically that's the law. Whether or not you choose to abide by it, is up to you. On the whole, I think most of it is sensible. The only part I have any real problems with is the Harris ruling regarding lock knives.

[Martyn]

And Vikings with long hair apparently.

Yeah, that too. People (all people, not just cops) make all sorts of generalisations about skin colour, hair length, clothing, accent, tattoos etc. But that is a different argument.

businessmen wear suits to look the part. It probably shouldnt be, but you can minimise attention by adjusting your appearance. You may not want to of course, and in a fair world you shouldnt have to, but it is an option and it's not a fair world.

[stotRE]

And Vikings with long hair apparently.

Speaking from experience?

[British Red]

Stu,

Judging from Waylands website - yup .

"Hey officer - I can't fit me chopper in your amnesty bin"



Sorry Wayland - as a bloke whose hair used to make yours look like a crewcut I know where you are coming from mate . Try getting a gold Amex card - that really freaks em out in shops (only got one to mess with their heads - fun though)

Red

[British Red]

Yeah, that too. People (all people, not just cops) make all sorts of generalisations about skin colour, hair length, clothing, accent, tattoos etc. But that is a different argument.

businessmen wear suits to look the part. It probably shouldnt be, but you can minimise attention by adjusting your appearance. You may not want to of course, and in a fair world you shouldnt have to, but it is an option and it's not a fair world.

Or of course you could stand up to bigots (or in the case of Rosa Parkes sit down to them)

Is it nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take up arms, and by opposing, end them?

Red

[Martyn]

Or of course you could stand up to bigots (or in the case of Rosa Parkes sit down to them)

Is it nobler to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or to take up arms, and by opposing, end them?

Red

...you could, but if you do, best not to be carrying a knife illegally eh? Unless you want to carry your noble stand through to an appearance in court.