Reasons for carrying a knife (in the UK).......

[JonnyP]

Following on from Stovies "So how does it affect you" thread, I thought I would ask, what reasons would you give to a policeman for carrying your knife ?
I nearly always have a knife with me, usually my leatherman wave, but if I was suddenly stopped in a street and a knife was found on me, I may not be able to come up with a convincing reason for carrying my knife and may have it taken off me. I am the last sort of person to use a knife on another person, but I find having a knife always useful. So do you have any good reasons I could use....................Jon

[leon-1]

When I am carrying a leatherman wave, it would probably be I am a computer engineer by trade and carry it for work purposes.

If it's when I am going out and about, then sorry officer, but I use it in the pursuit of my hobby (bushcraft), it is used for (long list).

As long as I am not going to a meet and he asks to look in my bag I should be okay.

[torjusg]

I don't know if such random inspections are considered okay and normal in the UK. But if it is, I would consider moving. You ARE living in a police state!

I can think of anything which answers your question though.

Torjus Gaaren

[jerv]

seriously who has been stopped and searched by the police whilst walking about mindng their own business?
we may live in a police state but at least the trains run on time......oh wait they don't!

[ArkAngel]

Fortunatley i have never been on the wrong end of the law (1 speeding ticket ommited!)
Like you Jon i used to carry the Victorinox version of your leatherman with me everywhere i went. It turned out to be useful in so many situations it would be impossible to list, but they ranged from removing the spark plugs in my friends defunct land rover to unplumbling a washing machine!
I must admit now however i have stopped carrying it unless i am out in the fields although the blade is under 3 inches. I just don't think that if i were stopped the 'just in case' defence would cut the mustard with the police although i would imagine i would get no more than a warning for a first offence so to speak.
Out in the fields would be a different story and telling any officer about your hobby and why you are carrying a knife would i have no doubt not concern them at all. Indeed the dog unit exercise their dogs in some of the fields near me and none of them have ever challenged me about wearing a knife when i have met them.

Having worked with the police a few years ago i would imagine that getting stopped and searched without reason would be highly unlikely. These days they have to fill out an "encounter" form if they stop you, the paperwork is immense for these situations and most officers i know most would not stop you unless they had VERY good reason to as it is in their words "just too much damn hassle"

[ilan]

why would you want to carry a knife over the limit ? a 3ins blade will be all you will need . when out camping etc i always make sure my camp knife is in the rucksack with the mess tin so it is in context .

[ArkAngel]

I hope i havn't been misunderstood there. Of course i have no interest in carrying a knife over 3" daily, the victorinox i used to carry was under 3". This is the magic length that has deemed to be a 'lawful' length to carry. My point was that even though my knife was under this length i have stopped carrying it as useful as it was as i was concerned that if stopped i could recieve a warning or confiscation of the knife as the 'just in case' excuse wouldn't be accepted.
As you rightly say my camp knife is 3.5" which is plenty long for all tasks and like you is either carried on it's neck sheath under my clothing out of view or in a side pocket of my rucksack.

[Stuart]

why would you want to carry a knife over the limit ? a 3ins blade will be all you will need.

You probably wouldn’t, but you might want to carry a sub 3" blade that locked open such as those on a leatherman.

Under British law a folding blade that locks is classed as a fixed blade and as such any length locking blade would be illegal without a food reason, no matter how small.

[wiggles]

i only carry a knife when out in the wilds and if i saw a copper id ask him what the hell he was doing there

wiggles

[ilan]

sorry but i thought you could carry a folding knife of 3ins blade without any reason . It would only be if you used it in a manor that was dangerous that the problem would arise. i think it was on british blades where a man was stopped with a folding knife with a 3/1/8 blade even tho he claimed it was to peel his apple he still got done . But the law does say that up to 3 ins is ok without reason . However the law is very fuzzy on what is a knife so as i understand it you could be done for having a 4ins nail in your pocket (metal tent peg ) without good reason ?

[BorderReiver]

Following on from Stovies "So how does it affect you" thread, I thought I would ask, what reasons would you give to a policeman for carrying your knife ?
I nearly always have a knife with me, usually my leatherman wave, but if I was suddenly stopped in a street and a knife was found on me, I may not be able to come up with a convincing reason for carrying my knife and may have it taken off me. I am the last sort of person to use a knife on another person, but I find having a knife always useful. So do you have any good reasons I could use....................Jon

If you don't have a good reason Jon,don't carry the knife.

[ArkAngel]

I think in this day and age and especially with the current media exposure and recent events thats very sound advice

[Jackdaw]

The real check point here is whether they have justifiable grounds for searching you. I have just recently left the police and can tell you that they are not allowed to just stop and search you without justifiable grounds.

What this justifiable grounds could be is a matter of conjecture. But under Sect 1 of PACE you can only be searched if they actually believe that they will find whatever they are looking for on your person. This means that they must have had some intelligence to presume you will have a knife on you.

If you are arrested you will be searched no matter what the offence. This may lead them to include a further arrest of carry a conceled weapon or some other offence. The best thing to do is when asked, always tell them what you have on you. If they find it after asking you, you will more than likely be in bother. I would be most upset to have been lawfully searching someone and finding a knife after asking if you had anything like that on you.

You don't need a reason to carry a folding bladed knife that is 3 inches or less. You may be arrested if you are using it in an unlawful manner. For a blade over 3 inches, locking, full tang or otherwise, you will need a reasonable justification for carrying it. Peeling apples isn't reasonable unless you have a medical condition that prevents you from eating apple skin.

Most cases would need to go to a court of law for definition of what is reasonable justification. I carry a full tang blade longer than 3 inches, but it is always kept in a bergan, not easily accessible and I only carry it if I am out in the field. For most purposes, my Swiss Army Knife is suitable.

The law is there to protect the general public not punish the minority. It will inevitably lead to the conviction of normally law abiding people who have come up against these laws, but as some individuals insist on carrying knives and stabbing each other with them, we can expect a backlash on the rest of us.

One last thing......NEVER, EVER carry something that looks like it is for fighting as you will invaribly have it confiscated and may lead to prosecution. A lot of "Combat" knifes are now being peddled as "Hunting" knifes to get round recent legislation. Avoid these because if you are only using it to whittle a spoon, it can be argued that you could have done it with a Swiss Army Knife and that you didn't need that Rambo, 12" Saw-Topped, Full-Tang Gucci Model that you were using!

[ArkAngel]

So just to clarify Jackdaw If i were to carry my normal swiss army knife i would be ok, but to carry my multitool that locks (blade under 3 inches) i would need a reason?

[Wayland]

I make my living demonstrating and talking about the lives of our ancestors to schools and in museums all over Britain and on the continent too. At any time I may have one or two fixed blade knives, a scramseax (about the size of a goluk), two axes, two or three swords and a couple of spears in the van.

Add to this a SAK in my pocket and if I am stopped I look like a mobile armoury.

In transit to work I don’t worry too much, entering school premises I always carry paperwork showing the purpose of my visit, so no problem you might think.

Now we get to real life. Most days I leave before six in the morning. As a good neighbor I do not start packing my van at five because it is noisy lumping boxes of equipment and armour about at that time in the morning.

After a days work with 50 or 60 kids I do not particularly feel like emptying the van in the evening either. The end result is that the gear remains in the van between talks on occasion.

Being my only means of transport, that means it travels with me to places where I may not be working, for example, suppose I have finished a presentation to a school and make a detour to a supermarket intending to do some shopping before travelling home. I am now not engaged directly in my work, nor am I travelling directly to or from my work. Even worse, suppose I have two consecutive days work and decide not to unload and reload the van between these times. I have no other transport, so any other journey made in the evening, such as taking the dog to the park, would now constitute an offence without any real form of defence.

Keeping a low profile does not seem to be much help for me either. Perhaps it is because I often have to set out early or perhaps it is because I look like some kind of long haired, dope smoking hippy driving a shiny van (A Viking perhaps?..) I do get stopped regularly by the police.

I remain courteous and so far the searches to my van have been cursory, but sooner or later I’m likely to be found in possession of said equipment.

I usually carry a copy of my criminal records bureaux enhanced disclosure but that only proves I have no record so far.

I seem to be in a cleft stick here. My fate and that of my business hangs on the judgement of an officer out there that does not know me from Adam.

Even if these matters could be sorted out in court there is the impact to my business that such an arrest and court case could make.

Firstly I would be delayed from arriving at my customers premises. Since I would only be allowed one call (probably needed for a solicitor) I would be unable to inform them about this until too late.

Further to this, I dread to think what such an arrest would do to my ability to gain CRB. disclosure, which is very much a requirement for my working in schools with upwards of 6000 children a year.

Of course the resulting media coverage of “Sword wielding maniac arrested at Tesco’s” would destroy any remaining reputation I had left. You can imagine the tabloids caring very little that said sword was never wielded and in fact remained firmly locked away in the car park.

This may all sound a little paranoid but that reflects my growing concern about my legal position.

I'm afraid seeing the growing media coverage of "knife related incidents" and the political reactions to it makes me very nervous indeed.

[sam_acw]

..........to cut things?

[Martyn]

Following on from Stovies "So how does it affect you" thread, I thought I would ask, what reasons would you give to a policeman for carrying your knife ?
I nearly always have a knife with me, usually my leatherman wave, but if I was suddenly stopped in a street and a knife was found on me, I may not be able to come up with a convincing reason for carrying my knife and may have it taken off me. I am the last sort of person to use a knife on another person, but I find having a knife always useful. So do you have any good reasons I could use....................Jon

This is an often asked question on BritishBlades Jon, so much so that we lock threads that ask it. The reason for that is simple.

What you are asking for, is a universal get out of gail free card, that is none specific to time, place or person. A magic "reason" that you can pull out if the eventuality arises. You are asking for a way to duck the law (that's one of the reasons we close such threads on BB).

The reality is, there simply isnt one (that's the other reason we close such threads).

The legislation is clear "good reason" means just that. That means a task or job that you are doing that requires you to have a knife about your person at that time and place. If you actually have such a tast to do, then you dont need to worry about excuses because you have a reason for having the knife. If you dont have such a task any and all excuses you can come up with will be plainly transparent as an excuse and wont count for anything to either a police officer or a magistrate. In spite of your protests, you will be arrested and convicted of posession of a bladed article, contrary to s139 of the 1988 criminal justice act. Your excuse absolutely will not work, it wont convince anyone. The only thing that will work, is a plainly genuine use for the knife ...and they dont need embelishment, they are plainly genuine.

Bottom line, if you have a fixed blade or lock knife about your person and you dont have a job at hand that demands its use, you are breaking the law and there is nothing you can say that will get you off.

[Martyn]

I don't know if such random inspections are considered okay and normal in the UK. But if it is, I would consider moving. You ARE living in a police state!

I can think of anything which answers your question though.

Torjus Gaaren

Police cannot stop and search anyone without just cause. They are legally obliged to have a legal reason to stop you. If they suspect you of something illegal, they need to provide sufficient evidence in court to support that suspicion. They cannot simply stop people and search them, just because they feel like it. Random stop & searches do not happen, it would be illegal.

[Martyn]

So just to clarify Jackdaw If i were to carry my normal swiss army knife i would be ok, but to carry my multitool that locks (blade under 3 inches) i would need a reason?

Exactly right.

The thing is, if you have a reason, then you have one and you are fine, if you dont ...well then you dont. You simply cant invent one on the spot. There simply isnt a thin air excuse that washes. If there was, the law would probably get re-written to exclude it.

It's actually a very clever piece of law. It allows police the freedom to make a judgement about you based on context and it allows the public an almost unlimited set of genuinely reasonable circumstances.

The cop asks you why you are carruying the knife, if your answer sounds reasonable, he lets you go, if it sounds like BS you get arrested and then you need to convice a court. If you actually do have a good reason, then it WILL sound reasonable, if you dont, then whatever you come up with, WILL sound like BS. It's practically a foolproof way of making "just bec ause" knife carry illegal.

[Martyn]

I seem to be in a cleft stick here. My fate and that of my business hangs on the judgement of an officer out there that does not know me from Adam.

Even if these matters could be sorted out in court there is the impact to my business that such an arrest and court case could make.

Firstly I would be delayed from arriving at my customers premises. Since I would only be allowed one call (probably needed for a solicitor) I would be unable to inform them about this until too late.

Further to this, I dread to think what such an arrest would do to my ability to gain CRB. disclosure, which is very much a requirement for my working in schools with upwards of 6000 children a year.

Of course the resulting media coverage of “Sword wielding maniac arrested at Tesco’s” would destroy any remaining reputation I had left. You can imagine the tabloids caring very little that said sword was never wielded and in fact remained firmly locked away in the car park.

This may all sound a little paranoid but that reflects my growing concern about my legal position.

You are well briefed on the law Wayland and you understand your predicament well. I'm pretty sure you also realise that your only safe legal position is to empty your van after each trip to and from work.

There is no legal way round that.

I'm afraid it boils down being simply part of your job. Lots of jobs have strict legal requirements. It's a PITA no question, but if you ignore it, as you rightly say (& even though there may be a good chance of you BS'ing your way out of it) you are taking chances with your livelyhood.

[Martyn]

..........to cut things?

That would get you arrested, your knife confiscated and you an appointment with a magistrate ...oh and up to 2 years holiday, paid for by the Queen. How kind.

[monkey_pork]

I make my living demonstrating and talking about the lives of our ancestors to schools and in museums all over Britain and on the continent too.

This may all sound a little paranoid but that reflects my growing concern about my legal position.

I'm afraid seeing the growing media coverage of "knife related incidents" and the political reactions to it makes me very nervous indeed.

Which is entirely fair enough in the circumstances I'd say, but I'm sure there is stuff you can do to minimise the risk tho'

Is the sharp gear secure within the vehicle ? If so you can at least begin to show due care etc, as it's not being waved about, or on show. The vehicle is always secure if you are not with it too I'd assume.

Do you carry other non-weapon materials to 'back-up' your story ?
I bet you do ...

Could you carry a print of your website, plus some thank you letters from schools or similar stuff (any newspaper cuttings) along with your driving documents, which will help reinforce your legitimate purpose.

I'm no lawyer, but one could imagine it would be rather punative if, on the way home from a demonstration you nipped into the supermarket for something, and your given defense fell foul of not actually being on your way to, or from a demonstration - after all, where does the line between detour and 'other purpose' come into play anyway ?

I can understand your point, as I often have farming tools, such as billhooks and the like in the car if I'm on the way to and from work - but that said last night I went for fuel with my stuff in the car, but I have to say that I didn't actually think about it, as I had other related stuff to explain it. I had all my other tools, my wellies & my overalls ... Now, I guess I could have put all that stuff together to lend weight to why I had some big sharp tools in the in the car, but then I think the emphasis on proof shifts off me a bit I think.

Context is key I guess, if I was out in town on an evening out and tried to carry this stuff, I'd expect trouble, but coming home from work ... much less so.

Good luck tho.

[Edit for spelling - grr !]

[Martyn]

I can understand your point, as I often have farming tools, such as billhooks and the like in the car if I'm on the way to and from work - but that said last night I went for fuel with my stuff in the car, but I have to say that I didn't actually think about it, as I had other related stuff to explain it. I had all my other tools, my wellies & my overalls ... Now, I guess I could have put all that stuff together to lend weight to why I had some big sharp tools in the in the car, but then I think the emphasis on proof shifts off me a bit I think.

You see a detour to refuel or pick up a pint of milk sounds reasonable to me, it probably would do to a police officer and it probably would do to a magistrate. Although you can never be certain, I would say the above is quite legal.

What is worrying Wayland (I know cos we've discussed this on BB), is those times when he's got home, has about 2 and a half tons of swords and armour in his van and is too tierd to empty it. Then goes out for milk. That's when it becomes illegal. He's factually not taking the kit to and from work, it's not a detour so he no longer has a reasonable excuse. It would require some clever talking (and some fibbing) to get off with it.

No matter how you try to jiggle the facts, leaving stuff in his van is illegal to the letter of the law if he uses the van for anything not work related.

[running bare]

can you clarify the law as regards carrying a knife as part of national dress or religious reasons and if this is just cause can you tell me which religion has just cause and for what reason a religion requires a knife? thanks tom

[jamesoconnor]

i am all for the stop and search campaigns by the police, as hopefully this will deter people carrying knives for their main reason which is to harm someone else. we as hobbyists practising bushcraft have a legitimate reason to carry a knife, especially if it is explained to them how much some of these knives cost and also handmade. i dont expect any of us to have a knife on us if it were not to and from where we carry out our hoddy etc.
i have been the victim of knife crime, and i would not wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. if the police were to stop just one person from doing what happened to me through stop and search etc then i would be happy. i was stabbed in the neck 5mm from my jugular vein the knife then dragged over my throat and up to my bottom lip missing my windpipe by a fraction. and all this from sitting in my car reading a book on bushcraft of all things whilst waiting to go and collect my wife from the doctors. he just opens the door and does what he's done to me . this knife weilding person has not been caught. we all have an excuse for carrying a knife as its legitimate, theses people are the one's that do not.

regards
james

[Martyn]

can you clarify the law as regards carrying a knife as part if national dress or religious reasons please martyn thanks tom

Certainly mate, you can.

A scott can carry a sgian dubh in public as part of full highland dress. A Sikh can carry a kirpan because his religion requires it of him (though there is some debate as to what exactly constitutes a kirpan).

This does not make them immune from arrest though.

There is more than one law which applies to the carry of knives. The one that a policeman would most likely arrest you under, is section 1 of the 1953 prevention of crime act. This makes it illegal for you to carry any item for use as a weapon, or for intent to use as a weapon.

So, for example a Scott in highland dress at a football match, would almost certainly get arrested for having a Sgian Dubh in his sock, because it's reasonable for a cop to think he was togged up and going tooled. He would get arrested for carrying an offensive weapon.

Same for the Sikh.

The same law actually applies to otherwise legal knives, like SAK's etc and football matches. So dont think just because your knife is under 3" and doesnt lock, you can take it to the pub or footie match.

[running bare]

cheers martyn. thanks for the reply. as i see it . it all comes down to the attitude of the officer other than a point of law. if 15000 scots fans turned up at say a world cup football match to support their own national team dressed in full scottish national dress and an officer that got up that day in a bad mood would arrest them all on the grounds of being tooled up. even though its not an offence to wear national dress and they havent actually committed an offence but because some officer "rightly assumes" they are all going to knife the opponents fans?how can he rightly assume when no criminal act has been committed.surely it should be unrightly assumes as there is no evidence of a crime or intent of a crime

[Martyn]

i am all for the stop and search campaigns by the police, as hopefully this will deter people carrying knives for their main reason which is to harm someone else. we as hobbyists practising bushcraft have a legitimate reason to carry a knife, especially if it is explained to them how much some of these knives cost and also handmade. i dont expect any of us to have a knife on us if it were not to and from where we carry out our hoddy etc.
i have been the victim of knife crime, and i would not wish what happened to me on my worst enemy. if the police were to stop just one person from doing what happened to me through stop and search etc then i would be happy. i was stabbed in the neck 5mm from my jugular vein the knife then dragged over my throat and up to my bottom lip missing my windpipe by a fraction. and all this from sitting in my car reading a book on bushcraft of all things whilst waiting to go and collect my wife from the doctors. he just opens the door and does what he's done to me . this knife weilding person has not been caught. we all have an excuse for carrying a knife as its legitimate, theses people are the one's that do not.

regards
james

Indeed James.

A nasty and unpleasant story. I hope they catch him and throw away the key. Sadly, I fear they wont.

That's the whole issues really. It's not that knives are bad, they are just tools. It's that people are bad. Any legislation should deal with why people would do something like this. It should address the problems within our society that allow this to happen in the first place and how to properly punish those who do it. There is no deterrent any more, prison, while not a hotel, isnt nearly as grim as it should be. Kids dont fear arrest or punishment, so they do what they want. There in no threat that hangs over people, that will keep the evil and chaotic element in line - untill such a time that they see why they should be responsible, contributors. None of this gets addressed, because it's too ingrained and too complex. Instead, we have a knife amnesty, which does nothing but let the governement off the hook.

[ilan]

I would also think you would have to prove a history for the religon/ national dress Thus if you were arrested you could not claim to be a jedi knight or whatever .Think in todays climate its just not worth the risk i will not carry any knife in a sheath on my belt , it stays hidden in my mess kit unless i wont if for a specific job . I do carry a sheeps foot bladed folding knife , with spike with a max blade length of 2 3/4 ins . Just as an aside a 24 year old died just 100 yards from were i work at 10 AM on a tuesday morning following a knife attack . The police will be looking to make a few examples .

[running bare]

I would also think you would have to prove a history for the religon/ national dress Thus if you were arrested you could not claim to be a jedi knight or whatever .Think in todays climate its just not worth the risk i will not carry any knife in a sheath on my belt , it stays hidden in my mess kit unless i wont if for a specific job . I do carry a sheeps foot bladed folding knife , with spike with a max blade length of 2 3/4 ins . Just as an aside a 24 year old died just 100 yards from were i work at 10 AM on a tuesday morning following a knife attack . The police will be looking to make a few examples .

not to mention the special wpc who was knifed to death outside her own home with a kitchen knife........that she took outside to use against a person outside of her property