Adder - Vipera berus

[xairbourne]

The British adder.

I have never seen an adder while out on my travels, has anyone had much to do with these e.g.

ever been bitten?

What’s the best thing to do if you are bit? something to put in your kit bag just in-case you or one of your party has a run in.

Thanks

[leon-1]

Hi mate, not something I know a great deal about (all I know about snake bites is really to rest, reassure, immobilise and evacuate).

I would imagine that would be the process to look for as it is what you do with any other snake. Your best bet would probably be to check it out through the British Medical Journal.

[jdlenton]

Leon I'd be inclined to do the same a small trip to the nearest A&E to make sure. looking at this it looks like insect stings cause more fatalitiees than adder bites in the UK.

James

[leon-1]

I have just had a bit of a check online (googled) and come up with a couple of sites that you may find interesting first is the British Medical Journal and the second is the NHS Online, I hope that one of them provides the answer that you are looking for.

[jdlenton]

coor that BMJ article is an eye opener! not as trivial as i first thought especially for the young.

James

[bloodline]

I f you leave an adder a way to get out they just move off peacefully but if you antagonise them they will strike and repeatedly its mostly dogs that get bitten when they come across them and fancy abit of sport. Watch them from a few feet but never try and handle them or disturb them

[bushtuckerman]

I just about remeber when my younger brother was about 3 he found a young adder among some bracken (a favoured haunt) and decided to follow it, which made the rest of the party pretty nervous when we noticed! But no harm was done and i see it as quite unlikely to be attacked by one unless you want to be, and even then they appear pretty shy...as, actually, they rarely appear at all. As goes treatment, i don't really know without proper mod-style research but i've heard about touniquettes being used for snake bites? not sure how good an idea, as they themselves are pretty dangerous.

[Templar]

Hi all,
Comming from a country with the top ten most dangerous snakes in the world I feel I should post the right way to treat a venomous snake bite.

Taken from "Australian First Aid, The authorized manual of the Australian St John ambulance service."

1. DRABC
2. KEEP CASUALTY AT REST.
3. REASSURE VICTIM
4. IMMEDIATLY apply a pressure bandage (15cm wide compression bandage)

Start at the bit site and bandage DOWN the limb first to the extremity, not too tight or you will completely cut off the blood flow! (bad juju that..)
Then UP the limb to the groin or armpit.
(generaly you will need 2 bandages to go all the way..)
Splint the limb, do not remove either the splints or bandage once applied, monitor pulse and breathing and apply CPR / EAR if required.
NEVER WASH THE BITE SITE, NEVER CUT OR EXCISE THE BITTEN AREA, NEVER TRY TO SUCK OUT THE VENOM, NEVER APPLY ANY CONSTRICTIVE BANDAGE OR TORNIQUET.
Get victim to medical aid as soon as you can.

This has been paraphrased a little to save room.
Also when you apply the bandage mark the bite site on the outside of the bandage, so the Medics or Doc can just cut the piece of bandage out of the way to assess the bite site.
This is the current Internationaly approved method for treating snake and spider bite.

I hope this is helpful to you all, I routinely carry 2x crepe bandages with me at all times out in the bush for this reason.

a note on bandageing, keep your turns neat so that it is comfortable for the victim.... (Whoa, flash backs to my teaching days with Search and Rescue)


As always
Karl.

[xairbourne]

Some good info there i just brought the matter up as a just in-case it ever happens.
Cheers

[Naruska]

When I was a child, living in the tropics my parents disposed of some 100 various serpents durig the first 6 months...most of them deadly. My dad did this by using a hammer, wooden clogs, and finally with a supple tree branch. Then they decide to give up and started shipping them to various zoos in Finland...

The strike distance of serpents, is some 1/3 of their body length on the average...black mambas and cobras exempted...

1.) never handle a "dead" snake... It`s probably not dead....this is experience talking
2,) if bitten, don`t panic...They don`t necessarily inject venom...
3.) Immobilise, identify and get medical aid. Most antidotes induce anaphylatcic shock...which may kill you, even if the snake doesn`t...
4.) A friend of mine got pecked by an adder and had his whole arm turn "Bob Marley" (pitch black) for a couple of weeks...it probably won`t kill you, but it will make you very sick.
5.) adder poison is bloody painful, because it destroys tissue. It will not kill you though, unless you`re a small child, elderly or suffer from a serious ailment...

Marko

[leon-1]

5.) adder poison is bloody painful, because it destroys tissue. It will not kill you though, unless you`re a small child, elderly or suffer from a serious ailment...

Marko

Thanks Marko, I didn't realise that all adders had venom which is a cytotoxin, I did know that Puff Adders have it though and I had thought that the death adder had a neuro toxin.

[bushtuckerman]

NEVER APPLY ANY CONSTRICTIVE BANDAGE OR TORNIQUET.

...maybe i heard that you shouldn't...minor detail...

[-Switch-]

Thanks Marko, I didn't realise that all adders had venom which is a cytotoxin, I did know that Puff Adders have it though and I had thought that the death adder had a neuro toxin.

Leon,
The Death Adder isn't an adder at all or even a type of viper. It's a cobra, native to Australasia.
No Vipers exist in Australasia, and the Death Adder evolved from the Cobra family to fill their ecological niche.
I don't know much at all about venoms and toxins but maybe this would go some way to explain the different type of venom?

[Templar]

...maybe i heard that you shouldn't...minor detail...

No problem mate, but it is a very common mistake that people make, as is the "old" cut and suck method seen often in old western movies.

Just a note on venom, it is mostly moved through the body by the Lymphatic system and not the blood stream as is commonly thought, that is why you use the compression type bandage, you are not trying to stop the blood flow, but actualy slow down the movement of lymph so that the body can deal with it in much smaller amounts, 'coz basicly you cant completely stop the movement of venom without killing the limb, having said that if you were unlucky enough to get a strike to some where close to an artery you are going to be in alot of trouble because the lymph will be drawn into the blood stream and you cant realy cut off the flow enough, remembering you dont want to kill the limb just slow down the up take by the body..

also, the reason you dont want to wash the biten area is for two main reasons:
1/ the bitten area is swabed but your medical specialest to get the right anti venom match.
2/ snake bites are not "injecting" venom, except for some members of the Cobra family, so most venom from the strike will be on the skin, by washing the bite you can envenomate the victim even more.

Cut and suck is out because of the above reasons too, also if you happen to have a small cut or sore, you can envenomate yourself too.

Just a side note for those who are interested, the venom from a Gabon viper can be "tasted" with no ill effects, in fact it is quite sweet, because once it comes into contact with the air it starts to break down, but dont try this at home kids!! It will still kill you if you have any open wounds in or around your mouth..

Venom in and of itself is actually made up of protine, basic amino acids, some work in the human body the same as if you were to inject blood of a differant type to your own, it will form a clot and cause the blood around it to congeil because the body sees it as a foriegn body, like a virus, so it is actualy your body that kills you, others cause Necrosis, because it is designed to start breaking down the prey of the snake to aid digestion, and some are neurotoxic, as they attack the nervous system to imobilize the prey of the snake so it dosent run off and the prey will then die of suffocation..

I hope this is of use and interest to you.
Cheers... Karl

[Naruska]

Thanks Marko, I didn't realise that all adders had venom which is a cytotoxin, I did know that Puff Adders have it though and I had thought that the death adder had a neuro toxin.

Snakes basically have three different types of venom:
1.) the type which destroys tissue (aids them with digestion/ as with spiders and scorpions). Adders,vipers...The puff adder and gaboon viper are especially dangerous, due to the fact that they are fat,chubby and short reptiles equipped with enormously long fangs... being well camoflaged, you are likely to step on them before they are able to escape...
2.) toxins which affect the central nervous system, causing eg paralysis and death. Cobras, black mambas...The black mamba is notorious for a "vindictive nature"...don`t tease them
3.) toxins which affect the bloodstream and internal organs. Boomslang (afrikaans for tree snake....). The only cure being blood transfusions...untreated, the toxin will turn your organs to jelly, within a period of a few days...

Non-venomous species can also inflict painful bites...(infection).

Most antivenins are "almost as dangerous as the initial snakebite...". In order to administer the proper cure, the culprit should be identified. Antivenins should only be administered in hospital conditions, due to the possible side effects...Some serious snakebites require amputations etc...

cutting and sucking snakebites is about as effective as giving artificial resuscitation according to early 1900`s procedures...ie. pumping legs up and down, and cranking arms back and forth... Instead of one victim, you might end up with two...

Marko

[ianmaxwell]

Its good to see a subject very close to my heart coming up on the forum.
One of my favourite activities was catching snakes and selling them to the snake park for venom collection. I have caught many southern African snakes but would always pass on Mambas,puff adders and on one very special occassion a rare gaboon viper. I have also taken several bites including ones with envenomation and those without.
I noticed that bites varied mostly from scratches to what might appear like a bite from a mouse. I carried anti-venom but was more scared to use it because of a needle phobia and never needed it.
Over the years I have come across all sorts of new theories including shock the site using elephant control fences to other rubs and treatments. I have been with someone who took a hit from a puff -adder and the best thing is to go straight to hospital as quickly as you can, whilst treating for shock. They survived just fine but a lot of the flesh around the wound died.They are likely to go into shock even without envenomation.
I have seen a cow die of puff adder bite on the udder, some people believe that the puff adders drink cows milk at night and this one was stood on accidently by the cow. The bite wound had swollen and split the udders.
In the bush I feel much more secure wearing a high boot, with snake guards.Most bites are on the lower leg and calf muscle. I have stood on snake at night and it sunk its teeth nicely into just above the heel of the boot.
Another good piece of kit for the bush is my trusted tracking stick which I have used on several occassions to move snakes with

[bushtuckerman]

Thanks Templar, I learnt a lot there

I also want to be the first to mention that crazy Aussie crock catcha', just for the snake of it...I wonder if he catches them too...

re. stepping on snakes, didn't Ray mention in an extreme survival episode something about stepping on the fallen wood rather than in between the branches, so that you could be relatively sure you weren't going to be caught by one that way?

[Templar]

Thanks Templar, I learnt a lot there

I also want to be the first to mention that crazy Aussie crock catcha', just for the snake of it...I wonder if he catches them too...

re. stepping on snakes, didn't Ray mention in an extreme survival episode something about stepping on the fallen wood rather than in between the branches, so that you could be relatively sure you weren't going to be caught by one that way?

Yeah mate,
When walking through the "Bush" Its best to step up onto fallen logs then step out away from it , not a good idea to just step over fallen timber, you can get nasty suprises that way, not just snakes, but holes, animal traps, sleeping homeless people in the dark....

In regards to Mr Steve Eirwin, yes he dose catch snakes too, and yes he really dose carry on like that too... It can be a little embaressing to be near him as a fellow Aussie, but he is very passionate about wildlife and the bush, his wildlife park is just a couple of hours north of where I live and is one of the best places to learn about the Australian native wildlife and its habitat, I dont know him personally but have been to his park a number of times with my G/F and he dose alot of the talks when he is there...

glad to share the wealth in my head..
Karl.

ps. for those who are interested I found this site which gives good colour pics of the Amphibian and reptile spiecies (Herpitology) of Europe, so you cant positively identify a snake if you see one.. /www.herp.it/

its good to have access to places like this and to study the pics from time to time, so you can have an idea of the Snake types indiginous to your area... Know thy Enemy as it where...

[Oakleaf]

I have to ( with genuine shame ) state that snakes give me the heebies. Past the phobia, I can see them as fascinating creatures and part of the whole cycle of life.

I lived close to Cannock Chase for many years and would encounter Adders there on a weekly basis. Certain areas are move heavily populated than others - I wont detail which as those genuinely interested will readily figure it/ know.

Frequent contact on warm days was a rapidly vanishing tail heading into the heather. Aside my irrational fears, main cause for concern was my extremely playful retriever - nose hot wired to paws. He was into everything and I was aware of the high risk of venom to canis moronis!

As echoed by knowledgable people here, most snakes - Adders ( uk ) specifically are shy and retiring. They don t want aggro. Their venom is a feeding tool. The slightest of care will ensure you will likely never even see one.

However, April and May can present danger times. Often days are warm - prompting activity, but the nights can be very cold. First thing in the morning the snakes seek out sun spots and lay out to accumulate heat. Until up to temperature they are very sluggish and reluctant to move. Where they would normally slip away, they will lay still and hope you pass by.

These tend to be the times of year when most strikes happen - and we are talking very very few. The snake doesnt move and unnoticed it gets trodden on or approached just too closely.

So just be extra aware when in Adder territory if you are on the move on early on bright mornings following a chill night.

Hope helps - otherwise thank you to all the previous posters - learnt a great deal...

still got the heebies though!

[Fire Ferret]

When I saw the link I thought that I might have something to add but my fellow Aussie Templar beat me to it

We get drilled with this at school and SES training (State Emergency Services) if you happen to do it.

Snake bite treatment is always good to know, who knows where you will be traveling...


Cheers

[dave750gixer]

A few years ago I bought a house in rural Fife. It had a large overgrown garden (well small wooded hill really). I started to clear it up including the piles of flood deposited branches in the lee of the tree trunks. Both my dogs were then bitten (i presume by an adder), one envenomated, one not. The envenomated bite was very swollen and painfull but healed ok, no long term effects as far as I could tell.

At that point I stopped clearing up that area. If the snake wanted to be left alone that was fine by me. Never did manage to spot it. Always thought that a sign warning potential burglars "no tresspassing-beware of the venemous snakes" would be cool

[Arvensis]

I believe most bites happen by them being picked up! or as others have mentioned, being trampled on. They are so fascinating to watch in the wild here's a pic of one from a local site:

Mark

[dave750gixer]

I believe most bites happen by them being picked up! or as others have mentioned, being trampled on.

Mark

Forgot to say earlier that both dogs were bitten on the inside "thigh" of rear leg. I presumed they had been running around as usual and trampled over the poor snake.

[snock]

We have a golf course not 100yds away from us, and Adders are numerous on there.
I found one which had been sliced and diced by some of the greenkeepers mowing plant.
My wife saw 5 in one go when she was out walking the dog. They hissed and made her and the dog jump!

[hilltop]

seen 2, one at devizes trapped under a kevlar helmet by a couple of lads from 4 para , other one was sunning its self on a big bit of granite near foxhouse peak district,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,gave them a wide birth inboth cases, lol,

[Nyanja]

lilelihood on being bitten is extremely slim, Adders will tend to disappear pretty quickly. Mountain biked passed one on Saturday in Northumberland - sunbathing on a forest track - it just sloped off as I watched it, first one I've seen this year!

Nyanja