View Full Version : Tree Felling (Ray Mears again!)
anthonyyy
11-11-2005, 16:00
" Mears’ tree-felling diagram contains a serious error: the undercut—it is named that for a reason—should go under the backcut. This keeps the tree butt from kicking back and hitting the faller, so it is not a trivial matter. Following Mears’ instructions could get you killed."
I am robbing this from another thread, but I thought it might be useful to separate this particular issue because if it is indeed a safety issue it is justified.
I wonder if anybody with good computer and drawing skills could explain what is meant in a way that an idiot like me could understand?
thanks
I'm sure Ray explained the importance of the undercut on one of the TV shows - maybe the publisher let an incorrect diagram through ...
Kane
I'm sure Ray explained the importance of the undercut on one of the TV shows - maybe the publisher let an incorrect diagram through ...
Kane
Yes he did explain the importance of the undercut when he felled a tree with that amazing swedish ski maker! :)
bambodoggy
11-11-2005, 16:32
..............
Helps a lot, Bam.
There's a lot of stuff on the net but it starts getting pretty technical. What's a 'Dutchman', for instance???? :confused:
Here's a good page describing a Dutchman (http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/dangers/dangers.html).
bambodoggy
11-11-2005, 16:57
..............
Lol.. it does get rather technical after a while and I've really only skimmed over it in my post.
Does that make a bit more sence? as I said I don't want to go into too mcu details as this isn't a Arborists site and I don't want people on here trying things because they've read what I've written! :eek:
Don't worry - I won't be trying this at home. I'm not a lumberjack, and i'm okay.... :)
Bambodoggy , Thank you for your insight into correctly felling a tree .
I appreciate your reasons for not going into great depth on the subject , but feel there are a few things i should confirm with you and explain to other members so as to prevent accidents if possible .
Firstly i learnt to fell a tree as a scout (which makes it all the more worrying!!)
I was taught to slope the bottom of the gob (as you call it) to aid the tree to fall in the right direction .
When a tree is nearly cut through but does not topple , we were told to push it !!
I am guessing that these are big no no's .
We never felled anything bigger than a 8 inch diameter silver birch but i think it still could have been dangerous .
Could you please give your oppinion on these points .
Cheers
Pumbaa
Haven't felled a tree for a few years, but...
Most trees have a desired direction which they going to fall, things like lean, weight, wind, or a slope. If didn't topple then possibility is that you've put the cuts in the wrong place. (Unless of course the natural direction is going to hit your greenhouse or something) If already made both cuts then use wedges or felling bars, to persuade it.
Just to add a couple of things you should consider -
1. Positioning of escape routes when tree felling
The escape routes are positioned at 45º to a line running from the centre ‘front’ of the tree (i.e. the direction of fall) to the centre ‘back’. This is statistically the safest angle of escape! Owing to the position of the felling cuts, the tree would normally fall straight forward or potentially anywhere within a 180º arc in front of the tree. However, should the final backcut be misplaced it is sometimes possible for the tree to go straight over backwards. The 45º escape routes therefore offer the most reliable areas of escape.
2. Beware the barbers chair.
Certain tree species are prone to splitting up the trunk violently and without warning as the felling cut is applied. The resulting ‘barbers chair’ happens so quickly it may be impossible to avoid and will almost certainly badly injure (or kill) the unfortunate person felling the tree. Species which readily split, such as Ash (Fraxinus excelsoir) are notorious for this trait; especially if leaning. The best protection is to be constantly aware of how the tree is reacting as you cut and not to place yourself directly behind the tree when cutting.
Although I have been fortunate never to have experienced this directly I have seen it happen - and it can happen in a flash.
I can only repeat Bambodoggy's very sound advice - if you want to fell trees properly get trained properly first.
Regards
Bob (also a trained Arborist!)
OldJimbo
11-11-2005, 22:09
Good information, Bam!
This is one of the best bits:
"Out of 6 on my course 4 failed....they failed because it's not easy to do safely!"
It's usually said here that one of the first six hanging or leaning trees you drop will kill you, or if you learn enough and are lucky enough with those then you'll probably last through many more. I've seen lots of examples to show that to be pretty realistic.
Dropping trees is an art as well as a science so a few book diagrams don't quite match up..
bambodoggy
13-11-2005, 12:58
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I learnt how to fell trees after the 87 storm. The boss was up to his neck in work, gave me a chainsaw, said be careful and off you go. I was up a big oak trying to take down a tree that was leaning into it with no facemask etc, anyway I started sawing on this branch that was about 8 inches thick where I was making the cut and the rest of it was tangled up in the oak. I looked at the branch and thought that the weight of it would cause it to fall through all the other branches that it was tangled up in, so I started cutting the top and the saw pinched, which I thought was strange, got the saw out and got it stuck again, anyway I eventually got through and the branch, instead of falling, jumped up in the air and the end that I had just cut through landed on my foot. I was wearing trainers. I nearly fell out the tree with the pain, and on the way home I had to crunch the cars gears because I could not press the clutch pedal down. Still I learnt a big lesson .................Jon
Had a chat with my Dad about this over the weekend and thought you lot might be interested in his views on tree felling. He has experience of doing it because as a 14-year old he was a slave labourer working in a Soviet labour camp in Northern Russia cutting down trees for a (sort of) living - no, he was not a criminal, just a young Pole caught resisting the Russian invasion of his country when the Soviets and Nazis split Poland up between them. Anyway, his team's job was felling fir trees with a diameter of between one and 3 feet. The two-man saw was the primary tool, with the axe used to open and shape the cuts and for limbing the trunks once they were felled. Both cuts were at the same level and flat based; indeed, they had to cut as low as possible to maximise the amount of wood produced and the maximum height allowed for the stumps was 10cm (4 inches). Angled cuts were used if they wanted to direct the fall of the tree to avoid other trees, hang ups etc. The escape routes were out to the side to a distance of about 5 or 6 yards. Trees often sprang backwards when felled but he only remembers one man killed by being behind a tree when it fell.
The prisoners worked down to -40, when it was judged too cold for the guards to be out! :censored: Fires were built to burn unwanted branches and scrap wood (the women’s job) but were not used to warm the metal tools before use nor were the tools warmed in clothing etc. He never knew of any problems as a result of this and damage to the tools would have been a problem for both prisoners and the camp officials because of a reduced production rate.
Funnily enough, so safety equipment was provided,or enough food! :eek:
Ted W
I meant.... NO safety equipment....
I worked for CDF (California Department of Forestry) with a wildland firefighting crew. I used a husky chainsaw but saw or chain saw its all pretty simple. I learned four things that seem to be universal for cutting trees.
1. Always use the wedge and backcut to drop a tree. Its just faster, cleaner, and safer. Not only that but with this cut you really reduce the chance of pinching your blade. You get your blade pinched between the weight of a tree and its trunk and you're screwed. Even if you do get it out with a wedge or another saw theres a good chance it will have a good amount of damage.
2. If a tree is leaning one direction, its going to fall that direction. So place your wedge cut accordingly. Let gravity do its thing. (edit: That goes with slight leans as well)
3. Felling the tree is the easy part. Once the tree lies on its sides you cannot just start hacking off the limbs. You have to test the limbs for tension. Limbs supporting weight will be tense and youll be surprised what a limb as big as your wrist will support. I cannot explain what I mean exactly you have just have to see it but the best I can do is tell you to just make sure you do not hack off any load bearing branches. Save them for last when you dont risk the tree rolling and whacking you with its other limbs. (edit 2: Made a pic to explain heres the link http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=350518 )
4. While escape routes are a must you really need to keep your eye on the tree. Especially old trees. We once had to prune a 100 year old oak (huge tree) because its branches were to big for it to support and were a threat to anyone under the tree. When we lopped of a limb on one side the weight shifting shook the tree and caused another to crack and fall on the other side of the tree.
Other than that...that is it.
Fallow Way
26-11-2005, 19:39
"All I would say is that if it doesn't go with a small push then you need to cut more or you have your cuts in the wrong place on a leaning or weighted tree."
have to argue with you there. There are specific proportions you should be keeping to. If you have worked to those proportions set out by the NPTC and other proffessional bodies and the tree doesnt go you dont cut it a little more where the hinge is concerned.
Freak - 100 year old oak??? does your part of the world hunt out and kill all oaks and a 100 year old one is one that slipped throught the net? lol the saying goes "it takes an oak 200 years to grow, 200 years to live and 200 years to die" :-) just teasing
The tree is still alive. We just pruned off the branches that were sagging under their own weight waiting for a good gust to drop them on someones head.
bambodoggy
27-11-2005, 09:02
..............
Fallow Way
27-11-2005, 21:57
I have been a Forestry Instructor and obviosuly trained more than a few in tree felling through NPTC. The hinge of a tree should never go below 10% of the diameter.
Leave about an inch?
so a 5"diameter tree, you leave about an inch? a 40ich diameter tree, you leave about an inch??? If it is relative to the size of the tree, it isnt about an inch.
Please please please dont ask if i would be suggesting something as idiotic as you ask in your post. (are you suggesting that if the tree doesn't go over with a little push that you wonder off leaving it how it is while you find another tree to fell? :eek: )
Wedges are at everyones fingertips, gluts.
If there really are no other options open to you once you have done all the correct techniques, then you have stupidly tackeled a tree way beyond your ability with the tools available to you. If you do not have chainsaws, winches and the like with you (and i cant see many sticking that in the rucksack :-) ) then you do not tackle a tree that you can not physically move yourself
Cliff Osenton
28-11-2005, 08:51
Yes there are alot of mistakes in Rays books, I believe this is not his fault but the lack of people now trained in axe work, the last axeman retired 30 years ago. I picked up many techniques from the last of them years ago. I tried to contact Ray a few years ago but had no reply, the offer is still open to pass on safe techniques.
Safety with axes is often underrated, I have used both chainsaws and axes for many years, axes are by far the most dangerous. Think of a 3.5 kg block of razor sharp steel coming at your foot at 100mph.
I often think of axe work as a competition where the last one to hit his foot wins!! its that bad, few can use an axe safely, a good axe can cut through 3 inchs - 75mm in one cut. Its a good idea when working in woods with an axe, to carry a good knife so when you chop your foot off you can make a crutch to walk home (sick but true)
Axe technique differs from chain saw technique by setting the hinge further back, then putting the back-cut in with a left-handed cut (never cross hands), change hands = change feet position. I'm not going into detail but I have put in an article to Tony on axe/knife safety, if OK I may do one on axe technique.
I look forward to reading that, thanks Cliff
swamp donkey
28-11-2005, 22:42
Now is this undercut in propotion or will another inch do? Mind you I might have to move my feet and I'm not sure I can do all the back cut left handed!
licence? There cant be more than 5 metres cubed in this one can there ?
Lets just go down the pub and leave it til tommorrow!
Cliff Osenton
01-12-2005, 14:41
Great picture, shows it all. Note the man on the left is working left handed, this normally earned extra pay. Also how the are both small men with small double bit axes say 3.5 lb. Note the felling knotch (call it what you like) is set half way back not 25% max in as with chainsaws. Also the cross cut is a bit small, I have felled 18inch dia oaks this way a few years ago, hard work. You joke about the felling knotch should be another inch in, one of the problems with axe felling large trees is its easy to under cut with a few swings cutting the hinge in half, your safety is the skill in setting the hinge. Also the hardest part if setting big knotches by axe is the last part in the centre to get a straight line across the hinge, known as the 'tree within the tree', when using 7lb axes horizontally its very tiring especially left handed working on one knee to get a low cut. Its very rewarding when the tree goes the right way.
Best tree felling quote ever, Q - which way will this tree go? A - I don't know, Q - surely with your experience you do?. A - no because :cool: I haven't chopped 'this' tree down before.
bambodoggy
13-12-2005, 12:16
I have now updated all of my posts on this thread to how they clearly should read.
I'm sorry if people lost the infomation I posted but I was quite clearly in the wrong to have tried to help with answering questions for people.
In future please direct all forestry questions to "Fallow Way", as he's been a forestry instructor for over 15 years!
All the best,
Bam. :D
Abbe Osram
13-12-2005, 12:49
Yes there are alot of mistakes in Rays books, I believe this is not his fault but the lack of people now trained in axe work, the last axeman retired 30 years ago. I picked up many techniques from the last of them years ago. I tried to contact Ray a few years ago but had no reply, the offer is still open to pass on safe techniques.
Safety with axes is often underrated, I have used both chainsaws and axes for many years, axes are by far the most dangerous. Think of a 3.5 kg block of razor sharp steel coming at your foot at 100mph.
I often think of axe work as a competition where the last one to hit his foot wins!! its that bad, few can use an axe safely, a good axe can cut through 3 inchs - 75mm in one cut. Its a good idea when working in woods with an axe, to carry a good knife so when you chop your foot off you can make a crutch to walk home (sick but true)
Axe technique differs from chain saw technique by setting the hinge further back, then putting the back-cut in with a left-handed cut (never cross hands), change hands = change feet position. I'm not going into detail but I have put in an article to Tony on axe/knife safety, if OK I may do one on axe technique.
Yes please mate, it would be great to learn from you.
I would like to share with you guys something new I heard a week ago.
Which I didn't know as dangerous but the guy I was talking too has over 20 years forest experience. He went to the woods to help two young guys cleaning up an area of trees which had been turned over from strong winds.
He found the guys sitting behind the roots of a tree lying on the ground.
They cut of the roots end to work later on the rest, sitting there behind the roots having a fire for a coffee. The old men told me that he was shocked to see the kids sitting in the shelter of the roots having a fire.
I said way? Using the roots end with all the earth hanging down as a windbreak having a fire behind. And then he told me what was new to me:
A tree being bend down by the wind has parts of the roots still intact in the ground they are bend like the string on a bow. When we cut of the tree leaving the root stump there and having a fire behind it, the warmth makes the ground soft and the whole stump can flip back on the guys sitting behind. He told me that again and again people are getting hurt if they do it. I first thought he was pulling my leg but my wife who is from Finnish Lapland knew about this too and told me that she heard of people getting killed or hurt that way.
For me it was news, I am sure it will help some of you.
yours
Abbe
Bam, I know which tree surgeon I would hire ;)
Fallow Way
13-12-2005, 15:01
Why is there is this closing of ranks and attitude when all i have done is given information which is well known and shared by countless upon countless of other foresters.
I am always well prepared to take on new information and try desperatly hard to be good at my job. Ask Cliff if i havent already been in contact to learn what I can from him.
If you dont agree with what I say then fine, stick by your guns but dont be childish please. You didnt seem to mind my view some time ago when you were specifically asking my advice.
Cliff i would also be really interested to read the article you are proposing!
also, this thread is getting silly!
anthonyyy asked a serious quesion let not drag it off topic!
I have now updated all of my posts on this thread to how they clearly should read.
I'm sorry if people lost the infomation I posted but I was quite clearly in the wrong to have tried to help with answering questions for people.
In future please direct all forestry questions to "Fallow Way", as he's been a forestry instructor for over 15 years!
All the best,
Bam. :D
That's a little petulant Bam, dont you think?
Retro-editing your posts in such a way, completely changes the context of the conversation and is an abuse of your post editing priveliges.
I know absolutely nothing about tree felling, but it strikes me that this conversation could have been handled with a little more maturity from a couple of people, regardless of who is right and who is wrong.
bambodoggy
13-12-2005, 16:43
Yep, maybe you're right Martyn. Still, it's done now and I'm happy to let things lay as they are.
No hard feelings from me :)
Bam. :D
Yep, maybe you're right Martyn. Still, it's done now and I'm happy to let things lay as they are.
No hard feelings from me :)
Bam. :D
Fair enough Bam. :)
Though I have taken the liberty of editing your edited posts to be a little more neutral. :)
bambodoggy
13-12-2005, 16:58
Though I have taken the liberty of editing your edited posts to be a little more neutral. :)
No problem at all Martyn, please do whatever you think best for the good of the site.
Thanks,
Bam. :)
I do me best mate. :D
Move along folks, nothing to see here. :)
swamp donkey
13-12-2005, 18:46
Well Chaps!
I find it interesting the directions that we go in when we try to put practical tasks onto paper either by writing or drawing. The fact is,Is that whats in a book is only guidance at best , I have a large collection of books stretching back to the 1840's . If we take the front cut for example, the depth required is given as 25%, 30% or a bit out of the front with no dutchman . (with no real difference between axe, saw or chain saw).
So there is no real need to change what one says. In different parts of the world things are done differently , I have been told that if you have to kneel your are doing it wrong , that back hand cutting is dangerous and walking around the other side and carrying on normal hand is safer etc .All from very expericenced tree fellers. I can find with ease, pictures of the back cut being directly in line with the bottom of the front cut etc.
If you take the picture I posted. In fact it does not tell us much at all, only that the two chaps were happy to stand in front of it to have their pictures taken with the tools they were using(if in fact it was them in the first place). You could surmise that they are tall by reading that the tree was 13 foot in diameter and guessing at their axe handle lengths or short as has been mentioned . I once had the privalaged to meet a Norwegian Tree Feller who had only felled Pine trees and was not prepared to fell an oak with out guidance because he knew nothing about them, As he had never felled one and was happy to admit it.
The key is that they all learnt on the job and got the feel, used the safe system of work that was past down and only got hurt if they ignored their training because of a lost of concentration/ distraction caused by greed, tiredness , drink etc etc etc.
Me I got lucky a few weeks ago and was able to cut a 21" spruce, completly by axe as part of a demonstration. I used a 4lb axe because I dont like 7lbs ones.
Monday we will be cutting it up on a woodmizer.
BorderReiver
13-12-2005, 19:39
Here's a good page describing a Dutchman (http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/logging/manual/felling/cuts/dangers/dangers.html).
Interesting link Led,thankyou.
Roving Rich
22-12-2005, 15:36
Well my Dads tree surgeon friend was Killed last weekend. He had over 40 years experience of working with trees and still made a fatal mistake.
I am not sure of the details, suffice to say that a branch landed on him, either from the tree he was felling or one of its neighbors.
He suffered a serious cut to the head and a broken neck, he never regained consciousness but died 48 hours later in hospital.
He was a kind and generous man who insisted on kitting me out with all the appropriate safety gear when i started my very brief carer in forestry. May he rest in peace.
It seems to me no one will ever know everything about tree felling, there are lots of people with lots of experience and the wisest are cautious and humble.
All advice here is given freely. You may disagree but you only pay if you do not heed it.
Regards
Rich
:cool:
Sorry to hear of your loss, I lost a friend too recently in a hunting accident.
It's worth remembering that however prepared we may be, nature is an unforgiving force at times.
Dudley Cook: keeping warm with an axe.
I got my self this book to learn about using an axe. It describes in a clear and simple way how to handle wood axe and saw, being efficient and staying alive.
I got it through my local bookstore after having found out about it on the bck page of the little booklet GB is adding to their axes. It cost me €22,-.
If you, like me, are an untuited amateur in working with axes get it, read it and stay in one piece.
Fallow Way
25-12-2005, 12:24
An unfortunate reminder Roving Rich. It is a dangerous enough task as it is, even when someone as experienced, skilled and safety conscious as your Father’s friend, which is why everyone taking on these kinds of tasks should make every effort to tap into the most up to date research and best practice being established by others in the field to limit the ever present risk no matter how simple the task seems.
As involved in the area of tree felling as I am, I am always enthralled when new advice is passed on to peers I look up to and respect as superior, who have in turn been either involved in researching or taken on the new advice.