View Full Version : Best 4x4 for rural / remote living - UK
I was just thinking with some mates about daft things - like you sometimes do after alcohol - and the lottery question came up. I said I'd go and live somewhere remote in probably Scotland. I got a few comments about access in winter and all that which led me to wondering about vehicles. If you did live in more remote parts of Scotland but needed access by vehicle what standard 4x4 would be best? If I still had to do the odd motorway and A road journey to see relatives and the like I'm guessing the defender is not really that good.
My criteria I guess would be best in driving say in winter conditions and possibly on dodgy roads / tracks at other times. However a good on-road drive would also be needed. I've been in a defender struggling at 50mph before now so would want something better.
I met a guy who lived down the road that turns off at the Bridge of Orchy hotel who had a barbarian or other large 4x4 pickup and the winter before last (I met him before last winter so this was only a few months before I'd met him) he has 2 weeks stuck in with that vehicle. I reckon in those conditions nothing would have gotten out but in all but the worst what is a good all round 4x4.
Sorry if you think this a trivial and pointless question. I've always wondered if there is such a thing as a good offroader that is good on road too. I guess this pointless (and possibly alcohol induced) scenario is my way of getting that question answered.
Over to you!! :)
luckylee
16-11-2011, 17:43
if you speak to turbo girl on here, she is in the trade with these type's of vehicles, and could proberbly give you some advice, i will secong the g wagon, they are awsome.
markphelan
16-11-2011, 17:47
You need something with lots of clearance, and if a Mitsu pickup can't get through then most other vehicles will also struggle. The Defender would probably be best bet, but as you say not ideal for road use.
Probably better off with a cheap and cheerful 4x4 (Mitsubishi Pickup/Pajero/Pinin or old Discovery), and a normal car for the rest of the year.
tiger stacker
16-11-2011, 17:50
Am sure Clarkson, derided the latest G wagon a few weeks ago in the Sunday Times.
These do what it says on the tin and very cheap ,i still regret selling mine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eprmfvQfEDs
Mitsubishi Pajero was my fave.
Liam
some more here very capable scooby doo wagon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JtKUv65MZo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJB7Xqft588&feature=related
The white one was the same as the one i had.
Depends on your financial circumstances. If you don't want to pay much for a car, (say £2-3k), believe that most modern cars are pretty well made, and don't mind high-milers (if it's a big-engine with high-miles, it ain't a problem), don't discount the following 10 year-old motors:
- 4.0 V8 Range Rovers (the 1st gen Ford ones) - these are shockingly cheap.
- 4.0 V8 Landy Discovery (slow, but comfier than a Defender)
- Subaru Forester - basic, but good to drive on and off-road. I like the way these drive, especially with the petrol boxer-engines.
- Audi A6 Quattro - the estates are handy, and they're well made and well-specced. The later Allroads may be expensive to maintain, though, as they have a really sophisticated suspension-system.
All are capable on snow and mud. The Scooby and Audis are great drives, by car-standards. The Range Rover V8's thirsty. But it's luxurious and has proper off-road chops.
Would avoid imports, and anything that's obviously had a hard life (worn tow-bars are a good sign). Small engined Japanese 4x4s tend to be a bit fragile, and the interiors are nasty...
Hope that's useful. It's just an opinion - I've driven all the cars I mentioned.
forestwalker
16-11-2011, 19:27
If you win the lottery and want to say "snow? what snow?" then I suggest a BV206 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandvagn_206). Not as a daily driver unless you are insane, but also handy for getting where no other vehicles will go in the non-snow season. it is, probably, on my win-the-lottery list.
How about a Hagglund? Oops. Forestwalker beat me to it with a genuine model number.
TurboGirl
16-11-2011, 20:44
if you speak to turbo girl on here, she is in the trade with these type's of vehicles......i will secong the g wagon, they are awsome.
Paul, us midlanders are completely blown away by the exMoD G wagon one of the local guys had from Norway... absolutely FABULOUS equipment levels, buy one immediately- in fact, buy two, and sell us one.... XD
Seriously, Discoveries are brill on and off road and with the spares availability, they'd be my choice every time- try to get the TD5 as the 300TDI/ Disco 1 models have an awful rust trap in the rear door sills which ships water and rots out into the boot too. The early 3 doors avoided it but theres not many around now (I think some were the earlier 200TDI engine).
In the same size market, I'd agree that older rangerovers can be good buys but they went through a really unreliable stage with the P38 body electrics and the engines were a disaster- the old Buick block was bored out to 4.6 and the top hat cylinder liners often break loose, knackering the engine, overheating and the body electrics... entertaining isn't the word when it decides to lock you out and you have to stand by it in the precipitations while waiting for it to unlock for a nanosecond so you can hopefully grab the door kwik :( We're very prejudiced against the diesel 2.5 too, having had 2, both of which were complete engine disasters.
We've sold a few mitsubishi shoguns- avoid the pajero unless you have a freind with an exactly similar shogun cos you'll need their details to get any help from Mitsubishi on parts etc. They stand the test of time well, (EDIT- as does the Isuzu Trooper, although...) the injectors are like hens teeth and priced accordingly.
I'd avoid the double cab pick ups- they're a disaster handling on slippy roads, particulary when unladen. (actually it can be fun but you need good throttle control and a crash course in drifting ;) ) The Mitso L200 has a weak gearbox for heavy work and beware running the tank dry- it blows the fuel pump and they like to charge in kidneys!! Nissan Navaras before the engine change in 06 have a bad habit of chucking the third conrod with no warning so we don't touch them either. If you MUST have a double cab, Ford Ranger, although ours used to eat injectors too, but they're cheap :) There's a lot of thin panelling on them and we've seen some tatty examples but hey, if the price is right, huh?!
On a smaller scale, lots of folk LOVE their Suzukis, we've only traded a couple but they've been no prob apart from silly plastic bits breaking (they've not been offroaded much tho)- the freelanders are great too but avoid the petrols- 1.8 is the notorious K series engine and the 2.5 V6 is very prone to inlet manifold probs which can't be accessed and will set you back a good £500... and when the cambelts need changing, you're looking at a hefty £7-800+ bill... IF you can find someone willing to do it :( The diesels are fine tho, considering how many are sold, they're very reliable.
Sorry fer the 'War N Peace' reply but I loooovvvvves my work ;) and hey, good luck with getting to live up there!! Invite us all up to admire your pad, wontcha!!!
Toyota hilux 4wd unless you have a problem with parking space.
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
Unimog would be my choice if I had the pennies.
santaman2000
17-11-2011, 02:07
Well your scenario was "if I won the lottery) so it's a given that expense isn't any kind of barrier (neither in buying, fueling, nor maintaining/repairing) With that in mind I'd forego most of the mini trucks and only consider full size UNLESS your remote access property includes very narrow tracks.
1st choice = Humvee H1 (obviously as their now off the civilian market, you'd have to get an older one and either rebuild it or have it done but so what?)
2nd choice = Full size Ford F150 or 250 (if hauling a family you'll need the twin cab. Yes there's a learning curve to drive one with an empty bed but TBH that's true of ANY pick-up; including the all but obsolete singe cab)
3rd choice = either an older Jeep CJ7, CJ8, or a new or older Defender (again with the older models they'd have to be rebuilt but so what; after all, money's not an object)
IF narrow tracks ARE a probability then eliminate the full size pick-ups and go with choice 1 or 3.
In any case kit out the vehicle for strict off road use cause in your scenario on road use really isn't that important; they'll all do well enough on road for short trips. If said on road trip is any real distance then you'd want to either take the train or hire an on road vehicle (if you didn't already own a separate one) An alternative would be a second set of road tires for the primary vehicle.
Again, this choice reflects a complete disregard for costs as that wasn't part of your scenario.
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
17-11-2011, 02:39
There is only one. That is The Landrover Defender no other vehicle has its pedigree. It has prooven it's self all over the world in all conditions other 4x4 try to match it's performance off road and have a comfy inside If you want a modern comfy car with heated seats and a coffee maker for your latta then buy a Toyota or a Honda and if you get stuck you can always get a Landrover Defender to come along and pull you out.
santaman2000
17-11-2011, 04:09
There is only one. That is The Landrover Defender no other vehicle has its pedigree. It has prooven it's self all over the world in all conditions other 4x4 try to match it's performance off road...
Actually when the Jeep was designed (in the 1930s) the requirements had nothing to do with the Defender (which wouldn't be designed for about another 2 decades) Rather the requirements were based on the horse; it had to go anywhere a horse could go and carry 2 soldiers and their gear. The final design carry FOUR soldiers and their gear and could be made amphibious with a canvas tarp.
And about 2 decades later the whole Land Rover line was based on copying a Jeep owned by the founder of the Land Rover company.
sandbender
17-11-2011, 04:31
If your plan would be to live in some remote part of the highlands then a Defender (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Defender) should be your choice, if you have won the lottery then several Defenders, including an older one then you can take apart and fix yourself. And a really big shed with a workshop and lots of spares.
You can buy an E-Type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-type_Jaguar) for the road trip to visit relatives and keep it with a friend/neighbour/employee at your nearest decent road.
:)
70 Series Landcruiser... Job done....
If I'd won the lottery, I'd go for a Defender conversion with that campervan pod thing on the back! Can't remember the name, it pops in and out of my head, begins with an 'N' I think...
for now, I'll be sticking with my old '97 Disco (the rusty one, but it's ok now!)
Unimog would be my choice if I had the pennies.
Will they do the highway speeds the OP requires? That's why I didn't just barge in with "Pinzgauer!"
If we're talking serious money, Google "Fennek"
Defenders are OK but need locking diffs to be truly effective (& the 110/130 has lousy ground clearance due to the Salisbury diff).
If I'd won the lottery,
Ok if cash was not a problem I'd like a go with this puppy , drive it for a year then sell it and get something a little more sensible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5m2cKu0IU
Some interesting choices.
Someone said the big pick-ups don't drive too well on the roads without weight in the back. That's something my Dad told me when he had to take on a hilux after his defender had a missing window on the highways site he worked on. On new build highways they always have a large 4x4 budget for contractors, consultants and other engineers. These were always, exclusively defenders in the long wheelbase (double cab) ones and standard front seats and inwards seats in the back. Anyway the missing window meant the defender he had assigned wasn't safe on site so they gave him a hilux as the only thing available. He promptly collared the contractor and got him to arrange a digger to dump a hundredweight in the back and he said that worked a treat. It felt like a car on the road and still handled well off road. He got quite some serious off-roading done on new builds. If you think about it mud, steep inclines, cuttings with vertical sides and a 45 plus degree track up the face which runs with mud and water over the bonnets of a defender!! What fun for a kid like me on school hols going to work with me old man.
BTW I used to always thing there was no other 4x4 to compare with a defender as that was what highways builders use. It took my Dad finding out personally that defenders ain't the only game in town and probably not the best neither. Is that blasphemy??
It is amazing that so many people up here in the Highlands just go about their normal life in winter without four wheel drive, winter tyres can be a big help though.
If you are living very remotely, reliability is a major requirement, for the winter good ground clearance is a big help, along with suitable tyres.
Many Defenders (TD5's) have had starting problems up here when it's really cold, due to fuel waxing and the position of the pump/filter thingy (can't remember which but its positioned underneath the off-side rear quarter).
Diff locks, either factory fitted (Merc G Wagon, Toyota Land Cruisers, etc) or retro fitted, can be a real bonus.
I did have a modded 2001 Nissan Patrol, reliable with a rear diff lock, not as good as the older models though. I now have a Land Cruiser 80 Series, 4.2 td, 3 diff locks. Ultra reliable, brilliant off road and a great motorway/long distance cruiser. Half a turn on the the key and it starts first time every time, even as low as -20!
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w279/faebuie/010.jpg
The heavier vehicles do have a disadvatage in deep snow as I found out when in the Patrol, trying to follow a mate in a Jeep Wrangler who had just skipped across the top, I just sunk in. This was partly rectified when bigger tyres were fitted.
If I had the lottery money I would get my Land Cruiser out to the guys at Arctic Trucks (http://www.arctictrucks.com) and let them loose on it!
Silverback 1
17-11-2011, 12:42
Diahatsu Fourtrak is a good piece of kit if you can find a late one with low mileage.
Run one for 5 years including some pretty serious off roading when i lived in Scotland and was Deerstalking on a regular basis, took some right stick and was totally bulletproof,
it only let me down once in 5 years and that was with a flat battery and well into the minuses, wish i cold get another but it is not practical for me at the moment.
" the lottery question came up" I've told this tale before but I had the same chat with a mate of mine who's worked for LR for about thirty years. "What would you buy Tony, disco, defender or RR" answer "Toyota" His rationale is that LR can't break Toyota's, they drive 4X4's into the ground but the Toyota out lives them all. So, performance, price and reliability I too would go for a Toyota.
Tony drives a fully restored Austin Marina (restored it himself) so his judgement may be off a tad lol.
horse - if you won that much let some deliver stuff to you.
well as its a lottery win
then
a Overfinch (http://www.overfinch.com/) range rover for week day
a Bowler Wildcat (http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Nemesis_intro.htm)for play days
and a helicopter for when you get snowed in
ATB
Duncan
Anyone got views or experience of these ? ( I can't even say the name ..)
All the local cabbies drove them around a Bulgarian Ski resort and had zero issue with the snow and ice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYfmO4X4z_s
< I think this one may have been tricked out a little>
A mate of mine had one and loved it , man it could rust though
well as its a lottery win
then
a Overfinch (http://www.overfinch.com/) range rover for week day
a Bowler Wildcat (http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Nemesis_intro.htm)for play days
and a helicopter for when you get snowed in
ATB
Duncan
Overfinch have gone bust.
If in the UK i'd go for a Foers Ibex. custom built of course.
The Lord Poncho
17-11-2011, 16:08
Overfinch have gone bust.
This suggests otherwise.....
http://www.overfinch.com/available-stock
I'm still saving my dinner money for one....
went into Administration this month - selling stock off. Wilson Field are the adminstators.
Autobrokers of Leeds have bought the buissness etc
santaman2000
17-11-2011, 17:20
well as its a lottery win
then
a Overfinch (http://www.overfinch.com/) range rover for week day
a Bowler Wildcat (http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Nemesis_intro.htm)for play days
and a helicopter for when you get snowed in
ATB
Duncan
And for your REAL winter play days a snowmobile! www.youtube.com/watch?v=2s3hkM2tf0s
santaman2000
17-11-2011, 17:23
Some interesting choices.
Someone said the big pick-ups don't drive too well on the roads without weight in the back...
It's not so much that "they don't drive well" as it is that they just handle "differently. Once you're past the learning curve, it's really not a problem.
How about a bowler nemesis ? http://www.bowler-offroad.com/Nem_2009/Nemesis_intro.htm
Or a sportsmobile 4x4 van http://sportsmobile.com/4_4x4sports.html
Craig..........
santaman2000
17-11-2011, 17:33
Ok if cash was not a problem I'd like a go with this puppy , drive it for a year then sell it and get something a little more sensible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf5m2cKu0IU
If you're just looking for something to play with for a year (and have the money) then why not go all out and get one of these? www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XRntxoykZM
fast but dim
17-11-2011, 21:05
some good answers, and some terrible ones.
defenders are ok. pretty good offroad, but terrible ( comparatively) on it, with too reliabilty and build qualty issues.
if money were no option it's got to be the g wagen. better off road than almost anything else, super build quality, and good on road, and unique.
if i had to watch the pennies it'd be a late 80 series landcruiser. jap quality, 3 difflocks, awsome off road, and super luxurious on it.
look to Oz and south africa, where roads are bad, distances huge, and the consequences of a breakdown are serious, you won't see many landrovers.
I've had a Mitsubishi Delica (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/P5270011_Mitsubishi_Delica_Sup er_Exceed_(RLH).JPG/250px-P5270011_Mitsubishi_Delica_Sup er_Exceed_(RLH).JPG)for almost 2 years now and it hasn't done a thing wrong. Just had it's MOT today - £180 inc MOT and labour - needed a fog light bulb and a couple of parts on the axle replacing - it's 16 years old but still strong as ever and has a full low gearbox.
Snozz
Imagedude
17-11-2011, 22:56
I've got a Hilux and a Defender and have experience of Landcruisers, Patrols and Ford Explorers. The swb Defender 90 has by far the best off-road performance despite lacking cross-axle diff locks, however lack of diff locks is a pain on snow and ice. The Hilux has been the most reliable. The Patrol had the usual Nissan engine and drivetrain problems, these may have been sorted in later models. The Landcruiser had a major gearbox failure which is almost guaranteed on the auto boxes once they reach 7 years of age. The Explorer was better than expected. Briefly had access to a Merc M-class but these are little more than pimped 4x4 Vito vans. Would love a Toyota FJ but they are £45000+ and usually only available as a LHD import. I like G-Waggons but they only seem to make £85000 deluxe versions these days.
If I needed a 4x4 family car I'd take a long hard look at the Skoda Yeti 4x4.
http://photos.imageevent.com/imagedude/shed/large/IMG_0268.JPG
if you are on a budget tyre are the best way to go. [URL="http://www.nokiantyres.com/tyre?id=12091290&group=1.01&name=Nokian+Hakkapeliitta+7"], i have used this make be for and woow , couldn't stop me , i was driving a peugeot 306 1.9 td at the time and had to feed some horses up a ice track two times a day at -5 , it was fun, they were studded so had some grip on snow covered ice , ps i got them of a mate for free, but i have a different car, so i think i have to get my own set.
very nice on the landy porn
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
18-11-2011, 04:10
Every thing you say is true but thay no longer make the fantastic JEEP of WWII the one with the big white star on the hood If thay did I would buy one. The closest thing to WWII JEEP is a Landrover Defender The new jeeps are just not as good as the old go anywhere JEEP of the WWII. The Landrover was made for Farmer to use in the fields as there was a shortage of tractors after the war in the UK the first landys had a takeoff drive at the back for hay cutters and haybailers plow blades and harrows and all the other things a small Farm used/ Saying this the JEEP of WWII was the Farther of all good 4x4's
Actually when the Jeep was designed (in the 1930s) the requirements had nothing to do with the Defender (which wouldn't be designed for about another 2 decades) Rather the requirements were based on the horse; it had to go anywhere a horse could go and carry 2 soldiers and their gear. The final design carry FOUR soldiers and their gear and could be made amphibious with a canvas tarp.
And about 2 decades later the whole Land Rover line was based on copying a Jeep owned by the founder of the Land Rover company.
For the scenario the OP mentioned (excellent offroad performance, combined with good road manners and luxury saloon comfort), there are only 2 real choices - Range Rover and G Wagen. It's worth saying though, that anything can get stuck in snow and ice if it's running performance road tyres of the type usually seen on both the RR & GW. If you want to be sure of getting out of the highland snow, what you need is something with a ladder chassis, live axles, locking differentials, a 2" suspension lift, but most importantly, some big-ass knobbly tyres and a set of chains in the boot as well as sand ladders, a high lift jack and a winch!
For this reason, if money was no object, I'd be going for a customised Range Rover...
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=51 1992&stc=1&d=1270003357
Basically a fast, comfortable, warm, posh Defender.
But a RR with stock road tyres ...or anything with road tyres and....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K053KWIEcL8
...you're only marginally better off than a Ford Fiesta.
bilmo-p5
18-11-2011, 08:03
+1 your comments on tyres - they're your contact with reality.
...you're only marginally better off than a Ford Fiesta.
Disagree! Re. the vid, I'd say you'd be considerably better off in a Fiesta.
Agree with the tyre comment.
Winter driving is all about tyres. Of course four wheel drive helps a lot too. My family has a Volvo S60 with all-wheel drive and I've yet to get stuck in the winter. My dad pulled out a lorrey (only the front part, but it weighs 5 tonnes) with our Volvo. Even though we have the non-studded winter tyres it's still not a problem.
And I've seen tons and tons of normal two-wheel drive cars stuck in simple parking lots. So four wheel drive helps too.
Now if you try to drive with your fancy 4x4 with summer road tyres, then it's a different story.
Every thing you say is true but thay no longer make the fantastic JEEP of WWII the one with the big white star on the hood If thay did I would buy one. The closest thing to WWII JEEP is a Landrover Defender The new jeeps are just not as good as the old go anywhere JEEP of the WWII. The Landrover was made for Farmer to use in the fields as there was a shortage of tractors after the war in the UK the first landys had a takeoff drive at the back for hay cutters and haybailers plow blades and harrows and all the other things a small Farm used/ Saying this the JEEP of WWII was the Farther of all good 4x4's
When you say orginal Jeep - do you mean:
Willys Overland or the American Bantam? Or included the other "Jeeps" that saw WW2 service - Ford Pygmy or Willys MB
Or do you mean when Jeep became a trade mark of Willy in 1950 or subsequent buy outs in 1953 etc.. The trade mark of Jeep came about in 1950 following the establishing of the Civil Jeep (CJ) range in 1945(ish).
If you mean Jeep as a trade mark then the Chrysller Jeep Wrangler Unlimited is the direct descendant of the CJ (itself from the Willys MB) - except it has more than a 3 speed box and they have improved the ground clearance so it now doesn't keep bottoming out. Extra height also means the engine no longer tends to set fire to dry vegetation if driven through it.
The Wrangler is to the MB what like Land Rover S1 to the new Defender.
Oh Chrysller & Jeep are now part of Fiat.
The Wrangler is to the MB what....
They started well and finished well, it's everything in between that is the embarrassment. ;)
The only choice for wilderness traveL where you need reliability is the 70 series Landcrusier ( If you can get one) .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhU4syPICN4&feature=related
Definitely a 70 or 80 series Landcruiser..(before they all went to poshroaders), but for an old design car they are expensive second hand and unfortunatley the new ones are not imported officially into Europe. Check here though for a grey import: http://www.transauto.be/car/car.php?vehicle=219&lg=en Although most woul dbe hard to get road legal in the UK by the looks of it.
Its pretty hard to find a decent 4x4 these days... most are just not built to actually go off road.
I'm currently driving a lwb Nissan Terrano which is pretty capable offroad with decent rubber. It has a good engine and decent low ratio.
cheers
Gareth
Agree with the tyre comment.
Winter driving is all about tyres. Of course four wheel drive helps a lot too.
Absolutely. Pretty much any 4x4 with some kind of locking or traction control will do, so long as you have decent road clearance and proper mud/snow tyres. There is absolutely no point investing £80k in a flashy 4x4 if your are going to run slicks on it (unless you have a spare set of rims & tyres which you change with the seasons). I see so many 4x4's with 100% road tyres - even low profiles are common on them. Having a 4x4 wouldn't matter a jot if your tyres cant get enough purchase on at least one wheel. Tyre choice is by far the most important thing for winter driving - way more important than choice of vehicle.
Overfinch have gone bust.
Wow!
Still, they were notoriously unreliable
The Lord Poncho
18-11-2011, 12:45
went into Administration this month - selling stock off. Wilson Field are the adminstators.
Autobrokers of Leeds have bought the buissness etc
I stand corrected then. Disapointing!
most likely there will be new Overfinch vehicles --- pretty much the same but owned by a new company
treefrog
18-11-2011, 13:56
Depends how remote you want to live. This should get you anywhere :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqzXueZS9NI
mrcharly
18-11-2011, 15:44
One thing not mentioned so far; how narrow are the roads where you live?
If you have narrow roads with high banks, then you need a defender. It's incredibly narrow (we found we could park ours in spaces that small cars couldn't get into).
As for the motorway speeds; you can't have good off-road performance and (affordable) high-speed cruising. A landy with at turbo diesel, even an old one, will be happy at 60mph with mixed on/road tyres. High ground clearance, boxy shape and you have the aerodynamics of a breezeblock. Just drive a bit slower and take it easy. We did Peterhead (north of Aberdeen) to York with one stop for food with a landy full of kids and camping gear. The non-turbo diesel early landies were incredibly underpowered and would struggle to get any speed. Any model less than 18years old shouldn't suffer from this problem.
The non-turbo diesel early landies were incredibly underpowered and would struggle to get any speed. Any model less than 18years old shouldn't suffer from this problem.
It always makes me smile when I see Defenders criticised for being slow for exactly this reason, their experience is almost certainly of a very old model that has probably been worked half to death. My TD5 (2004 model) will do 0-60 in 11 seconds, hit 90 without breaking a sweat and tops out at about 100mph, it has central locking, electric windows, it doesnt leak - either oil out or water in and the heater works fine.
I recorded this on my iphone...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX1g9fwvPJg
It's not a ferrari, but it's no steam roller either and I even get Lady Gaga on the radio. :D
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 16:06
...There is absolutely no point investing £80k in a flashy 4x4 if your are going to run slicks on it (unless you have a spare set of rims & tyres which you change with the seasons)...
Actually that's not a bad idea if you have the storage space. Those same mud/snow tires are as useless in deep sand as the slicks are in mud/snow.
Actually that's not a bad idea if you have the storage space. Those same mud/snow tires are as useless in deep sand as the slicks are in mud/snow.
Not if you have bead locking rims and a compressor. Drop the pressure down to about 12 psi and you're good to go even on the dunes. But you are probably thinking about them on a hummer. Big difference when your vehicle is twice the weight. Lots of examples of Landies pulling hummers out of the sand in the ME. It's not the tyres that are the problem in that case.
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 16:18
One thing not mentioned so far; how narrow are the roads where you live?
If you have narrow roads with high banks, then you need a defender. It's incredibly narrow (we found we could park ours in spaces that small cars couldn't get into)...
I haven't checked all the way back along the thread but I think I did ask this earlier when discussing full size vs mini pick-ups; and you're quite right. In the "money is no object" scenario that would be the only consideration preventing me from buying and rebuilding a second hand Humvee H1. BTW when originally designing the Humvee the designers were given a limit on width; it had to be able to fit in any rail tunnel in Europe. Apart from that, they were allowed to make it as wide as need be for better stability than the Jeep it replaced.
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 16:22
Not if you have bead locking rims and a compressor. Drop the pressure down to about 12 psi and you're good to go even on the dunes. But you are probably thinking about them on a hummer. Big difference when your vehicle is twice the weight. Lots of examples of Landies pulling hummers out of the sand in the ME. It's not the tyres that are the problem in that case.
No, I'm thinking of my old Cherokee. Even dropping the pressure isn't enough here. It works true enough but if 50% + of your driving is in said sand (and most off-roading in Northwest Florida is) then it just makes more sense to go ahead and get the right tires for it.
And your absolutely right that the heavier vehicles aren't the right choice for sand.
I haven't checked all the way back along the thread but I think I did ask this earlier when discussing full size vs mini pick-ups; and you're quite right. In the "money is no object" scenario that would be the only consideration preventing me from buying and rebuilding a second hand Humvee H1. BTW when originally designing the Humvee the designers were given a limit on width; it had to be able to fit in any rail tunnel in Europe. Apart from that, they were allowed to make it as wide as need be for better stability than the Jeep it replaced.
I thought the wheelbase was specifically designed so it rode in the tank tracks of the M1 Abrams for safety reasons?
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 16:33
Not according to the documentaries.
No, I'm thinking of my old Cherokee. Even dropping the pressure isn't enough here. It works true enough but if 50% + of your driving is in said sand (and most off-roading in Northwest Florida is) then it just makes more sense to go ahead and get the right tires for it.
And your absolutely right that the heavier vehicles aren't the right choice for sand.
I agree with you, that you should match your vehicle to the environment. The hummer is useless in the UK as the vast majority of our rural areas have been land managed since the Romans were here and they didn't cut tracks and build roads and walls with hummers in mind. Many of the farm gates and breaks in walls and such in the UK are a standard cart width. The Defender was designed to go through them. We also have lots of sharp bends and hairpins in our roads too, which makes life hard for bigger vehicles. With a kerb weight of 2.25 tons, 12 seats and a towing capacity of 3.5 tons, it's not a "mini" pick up.
With regard to mud/snow tyres, they are well suited to a country with a noticeable lack of sand dunes and 200+ days of rain a year (when it's not snowing). Scotland being the wettest/snowiest bit.
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 17:45
Didn't say the Defenders were mini pick-ups; but fortunately for them, they do have the same general profile and footprint which allows them access to narrow lanes.
Didn't say the Defenders were mini pick-ups; but fortunately for them, they do have the same general profile and footprint which allows them access to narrow lanes.
Nothing fortunate about it, they were designed as flat sided boxes, to maximise internal capacity and still fit through the narrow gaps. That makes em useful in counties that have had extensive land management for the last 2000 years or so. What is fortunate, is that the Romans were obsessive about standardising things, including the wheelbase of a cart - and applied it throughout the Roman empire. The Saxons and every civilisation since, just went with what the Romans had already built - until you fellas decided a carriageway should be a hummers width. :D
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 19:46
...What is fortunate, is that the Romans were obsessive about standardising things, including the wheelbase of a cart - and applied it throughout the Roman empire...
There was an interesting documentary about that on Modern Marvels (and elsewhere that I cain't recall at the moment) It stated that the first carts were standardized basically to the width of a horses rear (the horse being the draft animal pulling said cart) That width continued to be the standard width right on into mining and became the width of the rails bearing the ore carts out of the mines (also horse drawn) From there to today's modern railways which then became the standard for modern highways.
It seemed logical enough but I was/am skeptical as it didn't allow for the transition from the first railways (narrow gauge) to the modern width.
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 19:49
...The Saxons and every civilisation since, just went with what the Romans had already built - until you fellas decided a carriageway should be a hummers width. :D
LOL. Our highway width (12 feet per lane) hasn't changed for over 3/4 century (long before the Hummer) It's actually based on the width of semi-trailers and commercial traffic.
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
18-11-2011, 20:17
I have not a clue what you are talking about I am not up on foreign cars I was talking about the jeep used by US troops in WWII the green open top with the big white star on the hood. that was a fantastic 4x4 and when I am talking about a landy I only mean the Defender not range rovers as thay are a girls car mums taking there kids to school in ect' If you buy a posh car you will never offroad it as you will be frightend you might scratch it and the spars cost an arm and a leg. Defenders look better with age like a fine wine dents, scratches, and mud. I am not sure that I like the new Defender with the TD5 engine as the 300 series engine I think was the best that landrover ever made. It all depends on what you want a comfy road car or a good offroader.
When you say orginal Jeep - do you mean:
Willys Overland or the American Bantam? Or included the other "Jeeps" that saw WW2 service - Ford Pygmy or Willys MB
Or do you mean when Jeep became a trade mark of Willy in 1950 or subsequent buy outs in 1953 etc.. The trade mark of Jeep came about in 1950 following the establishing of the Civil Jeep (CJ) range in 1945(ish).
If you mean Jeep as a trade mark then the Chrysller Jeep Wrangler Unlimited is the direct descendant of the CJ (itself from the Willys MB) - except it has more than a 3 speed box and they have improved the ground clearance so it now doesn't keep bottoming out. Extra height also means the engine no longer tends to set fire to dry vegetation if driven through it.
The Wrangler is to the MB what like Land Rover S1 to the new Defender.
Oh Chrysller & Jeep are now part of Fiat.
pastymuncher
18-11-2011, 21:09
Well you did say money no object.
Who cares about the fuel cost
The green one (MAZ) in the background with the accommodation trailer not the little yellow thing
http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2011/05/20/Mc%20C%2010.jpg
or this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b4/MAZ-537_missile_transporter.JPG
I've had a Mitsubishi Delica (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/P5270011_Mitsubishi_Delica_Sup er_Exceed_(RLH).JPG/250px-P5270011_Mitsubishi_Delica_Sup er_Exceed_(RLH).JPG)for almost 2 years now and it hasn't done a thing wrong. Just had it's MOT today - £180 inc MOT and labour - needed a fog light bulb and a couple of parts on the axle replacing - it's 16 years old but still strong as ever and has a full low gearbox.
Snozz
Great car when it works - genuinely all weather. Turbo kicks in hard for over-taking, which is really useful for Highland trunk roads. It's a 4x4, it's a luxo barge, it's a van, it's a camper. With decent HT tyres it laughs at snow, ice, mud, sand or standing water. It's the most versatile car I've ever owned. Fabulous, when it works.
It's been nothing but trouble. I've never had to do so much work on an engine. I'm selling it and getting a Defender. I've lived in one of the most remote parts of the Highlands, and the Defender really is king. Will cruise happily at 60mph all day long which is the legal limit for the vast majority of highland roads, and will equal any other 4x4 on the rough. Most importantly, the whole vehicle is designed to come apart simply and easily. There is a wealth of expertise in this country, and indeed across the world, on how to maintain and repair the Defender. Parts are a fraction of the cost of Japanese stuff. It truly is a sustainable vehicle, because it can be kept on the road for decades.
I have not a clue what you are talking about I am not up on foreign cars I was talking about the jeep used by US troops in WWII the green open top with the big white star on the hood. that was a fantastic 4x4 and when I am talking about a landy I only mean the Defender not range rovers as thay are a girls car mums taking there kids to school in ect' If you buy a posh car you will never offroad it as you will be frightend you might scratch it and the spars cost an arm and a leg. Defenders look better with age like a fine wine dents, scratches, and mud. I am not sure that I like the new Defender with the TD5 engine as the 300 series engine I think was the best that landrover ever made. It all depends on what you want a comfy road car or a good offroader.
The Jeep - green with white star as seen in films was a number of vehicles mostly Willys MB or Ford Pygmy. The Willy-Overland and American Bantam where the only cars that where designed for the original design competition.
Compared to newer cars - even to a Suzuki SJ - they where all pretty rubbish off road. Not much ground clearance, limited articulation, weak under powered engines, badly gear - with 3 speed manual box. The where better light 4x4 about at the time
New Ranger Rovers are good off road and I know several people that regularly take me Discoverys off road as workhorse around the Dales. The Disco is as good as the Defender off road and in some areas better and it will pull a trailer better - the 3l TDV6 engine have more torque than the 2.4l Puma. And then there is the TDV8 4.4l from the Ranger Rover. I know of a couple of Defenders that have had that engine transplant - really does pull like a train.
The Defender hasn't had the TD5 since 2007 - when the Ford Puma engine was introduced.
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 23:04
I have not a clue what you are talking about I am not up on foreign cars I was talking about the jeep used by US troops in WWII the green open top with the big white star on the hood...
What he means is that there were several different versions of the Jeep in WWII made under contract by several different companies (Just the same way that the "Colt" 45 carried by US troops wasn't always made by Colt. All of them had the white star on the hood (but not all of them were green; some were blue or grey if owned by the Navy) but who cares about the paint job if you're talking about off roading?
santaman2000
18-11-2011, 23:18
...when I am talking about a landy I only mean the Defender not range rovers as thay are a girls car mums taking there kids to school in ect' If you buy a posh car you will never offroad it as you will be frightend you might scratch it and the spars cost an arm and a leg...
I know a few dozen cowboys, a few hundred farmers, and another hundred hunters (OK it's actually a few hundred people who do some combination of all 3 things) who think anything smaller than a full size pick-up (smaller includes Jeeps and Landys) is a girlie vehicle; real men only drive pick-ups in their eyes. I don't know a single one of then who babys his vehicle. They're all pretty well used and abused in the woods, desert, and mountains.
BTW if you want to do some serious 4 wheeling try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-gtmFLOrak
this is quite cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE0zixHwp3A&feature=related
I know a few dozen cowboys, a few hundred farmers, and another hundred hunters (OK it's actually a few hundred people who do some combination of all 3 things) who think anything smaller than a full size pick-up (smaller includes Jeeps and Landys) is a girlie vehicle; real men only drive pick-ups in their eyes. I don't know a single one of then who babys his vehicle. They're all pretty well used and abused in the woods, desert, and mountains.
BTW if you want to do some serious 4 wheeling try this www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-gtmFLOrak
Nothing less than a 350 and a dually !
Craig..........
The Defender hasn't had the TD5 since 2007 - when the Ford Puma engine was introduced.
...you mean when the Ford engine was forced on Land Rover due to changes in the Euro emission regs, which cut short the TD5 project well before it's time. The TD5 is more powerful and far more tunable than the "lumpy bonnet" Ford engine.
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 06:34
Nothing less than a 350 and a dually !
Craig..........
LOL. Lots of those about (in 4WD as well) but TBH they're too heavy for serious 4 wheelers; more for pulling heavy loads on poor roads or muddy fields.
pastymuncher
19-11-2011, 09:10
A few, more modern, vehicles here.
They make Yank pick-ups/ hummers look like toys
http://www.okbvts.ru/img/_big_foto/6_1_big.jpg
http://www.okbvts.ru/img/_big_foto/5_1_big.jpg
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 15:06
Yes they do by you don't see several hundred thousand of those vehicles on or off road. I do like them though. LOL And there are 4WD commercial trucks here as well (again, just not in large numbers) used by the power companies and such to perform maintenance in remote areas.
pastymuncher
19-11-2011, 15:14
The orange one is a Ural and there are thousands of them going off road on a daily basis in the former eastern block countries.
Far better than land rovers or Jap trucks.
p.s I own a Land Lover Discovery 1, so know Land Rover limitations and pitfalls.
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 15:22
The orange one is a Ural and there are thousands of them going off road on a daily basis in the former eastern block countries.
Far better than land rovers or Jap trucks.
p.s I own a Land Lover Discovery 1, so know Land Rover limitations and pitfalls.
Sorry I just re-read my post. I meant to say "hundreds of thousands" not "hundreds." I'll edit that now but I didn't want said edit to look like I was undermining your post.
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
19-11-2011, 17:18
I can see that people feel very strongly about the hole 4x4 issue every one has there favourite and stands by it. I see no one has a Unimog I hear that thay are realy good offroad. if you have to move a forest that is. not much use if all you have is two gundogs to move.A bit big for day to day use. I love my landy had the same one for 10 years now it is a ( P redg ) 147,000 miles on the clock can not waight till it is 25 years old no more roadtax to pay. It has never let me down no matter the weather. so I am very biased on the hole 4x4 issue
some older Unimogs ie 411 are smaller than Land Rovers.
Pity they don't make a modern diesel version of the 4x4 Bedford Rascal / Suzuki Carry.
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 20:31
I can see that people feel very strongly about the hole 4x4 issue every one has there favourite and stands by it. I see no one has a Unimog I hear that thay are realy good offroad. if you have to move a forest that is. not much use if all you have is two gundogs to move.A bit big for day to day use. I love my landy had the same one for 10 years now it is a ( P redg ) 147,000 miles on the clock can not waight till it is 25 years old no more roadtax to pay. It has never let me down no matter the weather. so I am very biased on the hole 4x4 issue
Maybe with gundogs (if you mean bird dogs) but most deer hunters here use full size pick-ups (2WD or 4WD) with a kennel built into the bed for their deer dogs. And they're still the most common vehicle for everyday use. Almost half of ALL vehicles sold for private use in the US are pick-ups (with the majority of those being full sized)
BillyBlade
19-11-2011, 20:35
I can see that people feel very strongly about the hole 4x4 issue every one has there favourite and stands by it. I see no one has a Unimog I hear that thay are realy good offroad. if you have to move a forest that is. not much use if all you have is two gundogs to move.A bit big for day to day use. I love my landy had the same one for 10 years now it is a ( P redg ) 147,000 miles on the clock can not waight till it is 25 years old no more roadtax to pay. It has never let me down no matter the weather. so I am very biased on the hole 4x4 issue
Sorry to burst that bubble brother, but that was one of the first things fat gordy binned when he came into power in 97. The 'rolling 25' is no more.
Your car has to be registered before the 1st January 1973 to qualify. No exceptions.
My track car (although I keep it road legal) is 21 years old. It'd be nice to have it road fund exempt, but sadly, not going to happen, so I feel your pain.
Imagedude
19-11-2011, 20:44
This'd be my choice
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/carreviews/firstdrives/255838/lada_niva.html
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
19-11-2011, 21:10
Oooo no not just burst my bubble I was realy realy looking forward to it. I already hate Gorden Brown did you know that he lost more money than the houseing bubble and the banking bubble added together when he ordered the bank of England in 2006 or 2007 to sell 6 tones of ower gold reserve when world gold prices was at there lowest for 30 years and only mounths later gold prices went through the roof thay think he cost the tax payer £900.000.000 in lost revenue. the man needs hanging
bilmo-p5
19-11-2011, 21:23
Think I'll stick with this ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/Ian/General2/Serious1.jpg
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
19-11-2011, 21:50
If you are talking about the US. Pickup are as American as apple pie but in the UK not so popular as it rains a lot more and we would have to have a hardtop on all the time. plus I hear thay are big CC's 5 and 6 lt engines I know you have cheep fuel over there. $3.43 a gallon in the UK it would cost us $8.88 a gallon( £1.41 UK fuel price a litter = $2.22 x4 = $8.88 there are 4 litters to the gallon )So US pickups would cost to much to run in the UK My landy dose 30 mlies to the gallon and that is poor in the UK most people get between 35-45 miles per gallon out of there cars. How much dose a US pickup do to the Gallon on average? It costs me £40.00 for a quarter of a tank of fuel that's $68.18 and it lasts me about 13 days then back for more. God I wish I owend B.P. I would buy Alaska and then ban cars for the peace and quiet.
Maybe with gundogs (if you mean bird dogs) but most deer hunters here use full size pick-ups (2WD or 4WD) with a kennel built into the bed for their deer dogs. And they're still the most common vehicle for everyday use. Almost half of ALL vehicles sold for private use in the US are pick-ups (with the majority of those being full sized)
Mesquite
19-11-2011, 22:04
If you are talking about the US. Pickup are as American as apple pie but in the UK not so popular as it rains a lot more and we would have to have a hardtop on all the time. plus I hear thay are big CC's 5 and 6 lt engines I know you have cheep fuel over there. $3.43 a gallon in the UK it would cost us $8.88 a gallon( £1.41 UK fuel price a litter = $2.22 x4 = $8.88 there are 4 litters to the gallon )So US pickups would cost to much to run in the UK My landy dose 30 mlies to the gallon and that is poor in the UK most people get between 35-45 miles per gallon out of there cars. How much dose a US pickup do to the Gallon on average?
Your sums are a bit wrong there PB... the US gallon is actually 20% smaller than a UK gallon and there's approximately 4.55 litres to a UK gallon and 3.78 litres to a US gallon so your landie would do even less miles to a US gallon.
Makes a change for the americans not to have something bigger than the British :rolleyes::lmao:
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 22:07
If you are talking about the US. Pickup are as American as apple pie but in the UK not so popular as it rains a lot more and we would have to have a hardtop on all the time...
plus I hear thay are big CC's 5 and 6 lt engines I know you have cheep fuel over there. $3.43 a gallon in the UK it would cost us $8.88 a gallon( £1.41 UK fuel price a litter = $2.22 x4 = $8.88 there are 4 litters to the gallon )So US pickups would cost to much to run in the UK My landy dose 30 mlies to the gallon and that is poor in the UK most people get between 35-45 miles per gallon out of there cars. How much dose a US pickup do to the Gallon on average?
On the 1st point, hardshell covers are popular here too. www.americancampershells.com
On your second point, mine gets about 12-16 MPG with American gallon (that would be about 15-22 MPG with Imperial gallons) The bigger diesel engines get about 50% better though (so it would be about 22-33 MPG with a bigger diesel measured in Imperial gallons) I believe the newer ones that shut down 4 cylinders (half the cylinders) at highway speeds do a bit better still.
Of course mileage is dependent upon the load among other things so a fully loaded truck (or one pulling a trailer) would suffer more.
santaman2000
19-11-2011, 22:11
Your sums are a bit wrong there PB... the US gallon is actually 20% smaller than a UK gallon...
Or another way to look at it: the Imperial (UK) gallon is 25% larger than the US gallon.
Just been looking for a new motor on ebay and i spotted this very interesting discovery.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/landrover-discovery-130-4x4-camper-motorhome-overland-expedition-/110774540622?pt=UK_Campers_Car avans_Motorhomes&hash=item19caad594e
Craig............
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
19-11-2011, 22:32
That is beautiful realy beautiful landy
Think I'll stick with this ...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v374/Ian/General2/Serious1.jpg
Ex-member PaganBushcraft
19-11-2011, 22:43
Did not know that very interesting. Do you know why yours is smaller as I thought that a gallon was a gallon but I stand corrected This is why I joined a forum in the first place as you find out new things all the time. Filling in the blanks in my knowledge is my number one favourite thing to do weather it is in bushcraft or anything else.
BillyBlade
20-11-2011, 01:52
Just been looking for a new motor on ebay and i spotted this very interesting discovery.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/landrover-discovery-130-4x4-camper-motorhome-overland-expedition-/110774540622?pt=UK_Campers_Car avans_Motorhomes&hash=item19caad594e
Craig............
£25,000!!!! For a 12 year old cut and shut with no sign of an engineers report!?
They seriously need to put down the crack pipe.
santaman2000
20-11-2011, 01:54
@ PaganBushcraft:
It starts out the same (with the teaspoon) and remains the same through the tablespoon and the ounce. But when we get to the cup, an American cup is only 8 ounces vs an Imperial cup being 10 ounces. After that they retain the same progression (2 cups per pint, 2 pints per quart, and 4 quarts per gallon) but obviously each successive measure is smaller here because of the base difference of the cup. I really don't have any idea why the difference though.
That's also why our GI canteens are smaller than the British ones (our quart is smaller)
That's also why our GI canteens are smaller than the British ones (our quart is smaller)
The "cup" as a unit of measurement is hardly ever used here - never has been really. We used to use pints, half pints etc. Our canteen is a 1 litre canteen, which is only a little bigger than a US quart (1 US Quart = 943 mls). Fluids are traded in litres here and have been for a long time. People talk about mpg, but it's nostalgia, you cant buy a gallon of anything from anywhere - with the singular exception of beer, which by law must be sold in imperial measures. We resisted metrication, but it's inevitable. The US will go metric too eventually. It doesnt make sense in a global market to have multiple units for weights and measures and the metric system is much simpler and more logical. You get used to it eventually.
santaman2000
21-11-2011, 06:57
The "cup" as a unit of measurement is hardly ever used here - never has been really. We used to use pints, half pints etc. Our canteen is a 1 litre canteen, which is only a little bigger than a US quart (1 US Quart = 943 mls). Fluids are traded in litres here and have been for a long time. People talk about mpg, but it's nostalgia, you cant buy a gallon of anything from anywhere - with the singular exception of beer, which by law must be sold in imperial measures. We resisted metrication, but it's inevitable. The US will go metric too eventually. It doesnt make sense in a global market to have multiple units for weights and measures and the metric system is much simpler and more logical. You get used to it eventually.
Yeah, even back in the mid to late 1980s when I was stationed there petrol was sold by the liter. I remember beer and cider being sold by the pint or half pint as well.
I know your current canteen is 1 liter but I thought I had gathered from other threads here that the older ones (58 pattern, i.e.) were an Imperial quart?
Oddly you're the reason we're NOT on the metric system. Originally the first congress back in 1787 wanted to adopt the metric system but as Great Britain was still our primary trading partner, they opted to stay on the Imperial system. As I said though, I don't know why or when the drift to the smaller cup (half pint) occurred. And BTW I did see a few cookbooks over there using the cup as a measurement.
Even though we're technically NOT metric there are some items here that are sold only in metric. Soft drinks (Coke, Pepsi, etc) still come in 12 ounce cans or (20 ounce bottles which are relatively recent) but the larger sizes are only come in 2 liter sized bottles. Spirits have long ago gone metric. Electric motors are an eclectic mix; sometimes you'll find them rated in watts and sometimes in horsepower.
Yeah, even back in the mid to late 1980s when I was stationed there petrol was sold by the liter. I remember beer and cider being sold by the pint or half pint as well.
I know your current canteen is 1 liter but I thought I had gathered from other threads here that the older ones (58 pattern, i.e.) were an Imperial quart?
Oddly you're the reason we're NOT on the metric system. Originally the first congress back in 1787 wanted to adopt the metric system but as Great Britain was still our primary trading partner, they opted to stay on the Imperial system. As I said though, I don't know why or when the drift to the smaller cup (half pint) occurred. And BTW I did see a few cookbooks over there using the cup as a measurement.
Even though we're technically NOT metric there are some items here that are sold only in metric. Soft drinks (Coke, Pepsi, etc) still come in 12 ounce cans or (20 ounce bottles which are relatively recent) but the larger sizes are only come in 2 liter sized bottles. Spirits have long ago gone metric. Electric motors are an eclectic mix; sometimes you'll find them rated in watts and sometimes in horsepower.
I think 1965 we started to "go metric" but it's far from complete yet. Some things have been in place for a long time, I dont think anyone uses or even thinks of temperature in Fahrenheit any more and it's definitely much more logical to have the freezing point of pure water at sea level set at 0 degrees and the boiling point set at 100 degrees. But some things, like the "pint of beer" are so culturally engrained, I dont know what it would take to move it over. I think probably the next big change for us will be changing our road speed limits over to kph from mph.
£25,000!!!! For a 12 year old cut and shut with no sign of an engineers report!?
They seriously need to put down the crack pipe.
Yeah, it is a bit optimistic isn't it - you could buy an Airstream caravan for that.
And BTW I did see a few cookbooks over there using the cup as a measurement.
Old cookbooks and recipes are probably the only place you'll see it in the UK. It exists, it was just never commonly used outside of measuring ingredients for cakes and such. Same with a quart, it exists here, but you'll almost never hear the term used and in most shops, if you asked for a quart of something, they'd look at you like you were from Mars. Asking for two pints gets the required amount. It's just expressions. :D
The '58 pattern bottle and mug is the current issue and is I believe, 1 litre for the bottle and 500mls for the mug, which is only a few mls larger than your 1 US pint mug and 1 US quart canteen (which I vastly prefer BTW). Although 1960 (the '58 pat webbing was introduced in '60) was a bit early for us, it was probably standardised at a litre to comply with NATO or possibly in anticipation of our looming metrication in '65.
I'm not certain, but I think you'd have to go back to the '44 webbing to find a UK "pint" water bottle, though I dunno what the capacity actually was.
British Red
21-11-2011, 13:26
I dont think anyone uses or even thinks of temperature in Fahrenheit any more
I do - and my parents (who are still alive!). A nice warm summers day is 70, 60 is cool 80 is warm. Normal body temperature is 98.4 :)
I also think in feet and inches (a six foot tall man makes sense to me), stone, pounds (a bag of sugar is still a two pound bag to me) and ounces ( a quarter of sherbert lemons please :)). Distances are in miles, yards etc.
Certainly still think about a four pint or two pint jug of milk (whatever the packet says), I think a supermarket sized bag of spuds is a 5lb bag, my jerry cans are five gallons.
Some US measurements don't work for me though - a bottle of scotch is a bottle not a "fifth".
I can think in metric liquids, I really struggle with weights and distances though - I still mentally convert.
I'm probably the last generation that will think like that - my daughter doesn't and she is in her twenties.
And I do have a set of measuring cups - graduated in cups - but they are solely for cooking as you say!
santaman2000
21-11-2011, 14:09
...Some US measurements don't work for me though - a bottle of scotch is a bottle not a "fifth".
LOL. before metrification a "fifth" referred to the size of the bottle.
They came in: half pints, pints (both shaped as hip flasks), fifths (1 fifth of a gallon), and quarts.
Now they are metric: 250 mL, 500mL (still in the old hip flask shape), 750 mL (close to a fifth), 1 liter; and now a big 1.75 liter.
santaman2000
21-11-2011, 14:25
Old cookbooks and recipes are probably the only place you'll see it in the UK. It exists, it was just never commonly used outside of measuring ingredients for cakes and such...
Same with a quart, it exists here, but you'll almost never hear the term used and in most shops, if you asked for a quart of something, they'd look at you like you were from Mars. Asking for two pints gets the required amount. It's just expressions. :D
I don't think I've ever seen the cup used here either outside of cooking or food measurement.
It's ironic that when I was growing up you could go to the grocery store and certain fresh deli items that they dished into tubs upon order (such as potato salad, cole slaw, etc.) were ordered by pints or quarts. Now they're ordered by the pound. I can look at a container of a given size (whether it be a pint or 500 mL) and tell about how many people it will feed, but I have absolutely no idea how big a container holds a pound (or half pound, or whatever) of potato salad.
Quarts were (and are) the common measure for automotive fluids/lubricants (other than fuel) such as oil, transmission (gearbox) fluid, power steering fluid, brake fluid, etc. (That should bring us back to 4WD vehicles) :) Seems like we've strayed a bit.
British Red
21-11-2011, 14:26
Yep, but here we have bottles, half bottles and quarter bottles. You can buy a litre though. Which is a litre! A bottle is 750ml but you would ask for "a half bottle" not 375ml :)
Its like bores. A 12 bore makes sense - it isn't a 12 gauge - there is no guage in any system of measurement that it corresponsds to. Although why a .410 is a .410 I don't know - maybe it didn't exist in black powder days?
British Red
21-11-2011, 14:27
Ooops back to engines - they are measured in metric (e.g. a 3 litre engine!)
Ooops back to engines - they are measured in metric (e.g. a 3 litre engine!)
...and have been for a long time. I cant personally recall engine sizes being measured in any other way. I remember my dad having a Rover P5 made sometime in the 50's and it had a 3 "litre" engine.
forestwalker
21-11-2011, 17:03
I don't know why or when the drift to the smaller cup (half pint) occurred. And BTW I did see a few cookbooks over there using the cup as a measurement.
IIRC you guys are still using an older gallon (the old wine gallon?), while the UK modernized at some point to a different gallon.
Perhaps when we sold goods to the US, back in the day, we told them they were buying a gallon, and we were actually short changing them? ;)
santaman2000
21-11-2011, 23:10
...and have been for a long time. I cant personally recall engine sizes being measured in any other way. I remember my dad having a Rover P5 made sometime in the 50's and it had a 3 "litre" engine.
Don't know when you switched over there but they used to be measured in cubic inch displacement. Over here the switch was in the late 70s or so.
santaman2000
21-11-2011, 23:11
Perhaps when we sold goods to the US, back in the day, we told them they were buying a gallon, and we were actually short changing them? ;)
LOL. Possibly so. But as I said the pint here is only 16 ounces as well.
"Best 4x4 for rural / remote living - UK"
http://babyanimalz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/baby-donkey-mom.jpg
I was told (possibly apocryphally) that the reason the US pint is smaller than the UK pint is down to the fact that one of our kings wanted to tax the colonials more but they wouldn't have it. So he kept the tax the same but shrank the size of the beer pint.
Re cubic inches vs litres for engines, aviation engines are still generally referred to in cu inches. Ours has an 0-320 which is 320 cu inches, i.e. just over 5 litres.
Imagedude
22-11-2011, 13:37
I'm tempted by this
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/images/rrjeep_lrg7.jpg
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/4x4defender90_used/used4x4defender90RRJEEP.htm
santaman2000
22-11-2011, 13:59
I was told (possibly apocryphally) that the reason the US pint is smaller than the UK pint is down to the fact that one of our kings wanted to tax the colonials more but they wouldn't have it. So he kept the tax the same but shrank the size of the beer pint...
Kinda like the manufactures have been doing to packaged goods for the last 15-20 years. Goods that used to come in 1 pound bags (like coffee grounds and packaged bacon) are now 12 ounces and where a case of Coke (or beer for that matter) used to be 4 six packs (24 cans) now it's only 20 cans. But in all cases the price remained the same (or rose)
fredster
22-11-2011, 14:18
...can't break Toyota's, they drive 4X4's into the ground but the Toyota out lives them all. So, performance, price and reliability I too would go for a Toyota...
Wise words. have had a few mates with Defender's, massively problematic. I remember once in Land Rover Owner mag I read the line "and what would any day out in a Landy be without a mechanical issue to deal with" - 'nuff said!
Hilux the whole way. Unbreakable, with car like comfort levels.
TurboGirl
22-11-2011, 15:13
[QUOTE=Imagedude;996752]
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/images/rrjeep_lrg7.jpg
I'm sorry but to me, it looks like a very short hearse!
Rod Paradise
22-11-2011, 16:17
I'm tempted by this
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/images/rrjeep_lrg7.jpg
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/4x4defender90_used/used4x4defender90RRJEEP.htm
I seem to remember seeing that for sale months ago when browsing off-roaders - they might take a lower offer....
BillyBlade
22-11-2011, 18:37
[QUOTE=Imagedude;996752]
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/images/rrjeep_lrg7.jpg
I'm sorry but to me, it looks like a very short hearse!
Agreed. RReading (see what I did there) the spec sheet it's a bit more 'pimp' than 'mud' anyways.
I'm tempted by this
http://www.neneoverland.co.uk/4x4defender90_used/used4x4defender90RRJEEP.htm
Each to his own I suppose.
On the subject of 4x4 overland vehicles, I gave this a lot of idle thought some time back. I like hardcore offroaders, but the reality is that you just dont need them 99.99% of the time and when you consider the cost, maintenance, fuel economy and upkeep of something like a Unimog, it's a bonkers option. Seriously, how likely is it that you will ever take a camper van rock-crawling? Consider how tall they are too? You'd be taking branches off trees and grinding under bridges all over, with some seriously limited access in towns and the like. That's not a good brief for a camper, even one that needs to be rugged. Also vehicles like Defenders and Land Cruisers, while excellent offroaders and good cars generally, are just way too small to "live in".
There is a solution though, I give you the Mercedes Vario 4x4....
http://www.planetbenz.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/options/c0de9_mercedes-benz-vario-motors-into-the-future.jpg
All wheel drive, traction control, ABS, good ground clearance, ladder chassis, live axles etc. There are about 80 model variations to choose from, but this one is the double cab chassis back.
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-656624-1-1385322-1-0-0-0-0-0-11702-656174-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html
Give it a suspension lift, some mud tyres, a bit of armour and put a custom back on it and I think it'd be perfect. Lot cheaper than a Unimog too.
luckylee
22-11-2011, 19:39
On the subject of 4x4 overland vehicles, I gave this a lot of idle thought some time back. I like hardcore offroaders, but the reality is that you just dont need them 99.99% of the time and when you consider the cost, maintenance, fuel economy and upkeep of something like a Unimog, it's a bonkers option. Seriously, how likely is it that you will ever take a camper van rock-crawling? Consider how tall they are too? You'd be taking branches off trees and grinding under bridges all over, with some seriously limited access in towns and the like. That's not a good brief for a camper, even one that needs to be rugged. Also vehicles like Defenders and Land Cruisers, while excellent offroaders and good cars generally, are just way too small to "live in".
There is a solution though, I give you the Mercedes Vario 4x4....
http://www.planetbenz.com/wp-content/plugins/wp-o-matic/options/c0de9_mercedes-benz-vario-motors-into-the-future.jpg
All wheel drive, traction control, ABS, good ground clearance, ladder chassis, live axles etc. There are about 80 model variations to choose from, but this one is the double cab chassis back.
http://media.daimler.com/dcmedia/0-921-656624-1-1385322-1-0-0-0-0-0-11702-656174-0-1-0-0-0-0-0.html
Give it a suspension lift, some mud tyres, a bit of armour and put a custom back on it and I think it'd be perfect. Lot cheaper than a Unimog too.
martyn mate, loving that.
best overland wagon.... Toyota Hiace AWD.
You don't need a tricked up comp spec vehicle for dirt roads. Look at what the locals drive around the world. Africa & Asia the Hiace is the workhorse of choice.
Imagedude
22-11-2011, 20:25
[QUOTE=TurboGirl;996810]
Agreed. RReading (see what I did there) the spec sheet it's a bit more 'pimp' than 'mud' anyways.
Agreed, but with a V8, ARB lockers, short wheeelbase and an auto box there isn't an unmodified Landie that could keep up with it in the mire.
Agreed, but with a V8, ARB lockers, short wheeelbase and an auto box there isn't an unmodified Landie that could keep up with it in the mire.
its just a modified landy... well range rover with a fibre glass body on it. so yes there is no unmodified landy that can keep up with a modified one in the mire.
My dad spent a year driving to Bangladesh and back in the 60's. Spent about a year out there, mostly in India. He drove a Land Rover Series IIA 109 van. He only engaged 4x4 a couple of times. He had boards across the rear benches with a mattress on top and slept in the back if he needed to. All the gear was stashed underneath
I met another guy in London who drove a 2CV to India and back, twice. Bit too hard core for me - but the principle of a low cost, utilitarian car with soft springs is a sound one.
The high energy approach is seductive, but a big flash vehicle becomes a paranoia inducing target, shouts about your comparatively vast wealth, uses huge amounts of fuel, and being complex is more likely to break down. All that self sufficient luxury is also in danger of insulating you from the environment and it's people. Be shame to travel all that way and realise you'd missed out on the adventure.
http://www.filterfeeder.eu/filter_feeder/File_Hosting_files/IMG_0005_1.jpg
TurboGirl
22-11-2011, 23:53
Oh, ye baleful spirits of the woods, how the heck did my name become associated with desire for a black munchin jeep-hearse in the quote on comment #128?! I got a professional image to maintain! arrrggghhhHHHHHHH!!!!!!
Oh, ye baleful spirits of the woods, how the heck did my name become associated with desire for a black munchin jeep-hearse in the quote on comment #128?! I got a professional image to maintain! arrrggghhhHHHHHHH!!!!!!
LOL !! you must of seen the light ! LOL !
Laurentius
22-11-2011, 23:57
Mitsubishi Pajero was my fave.
Liam
I'd have to agree, for a combination of on road comfort and off road ability they take some beating.
BillyBlade
23-11-2011, 14:24
[QUOTE=Imagedude;997040]
its just a modified landy... well range rover with a fibre glass body on it. so yes there is no unmodified landy that can keep up with a modified one in the mire.
Oi, sort that quote out above Lou please!
I never posted that, it was Imagedude!
And for the record, if you stick all that kit on a landy, it's going to go the same place as the jeep, so I'm really not getting the point your (imagedude) trying to make?
TurboGirl
23-11-2011, 21:43
There does seem to be a most unfortunate glitch in the quotation software on this thread :)
pastymuncher
25-11-2011, 10:38
How about building your own vehicle, complete with woodburner?
http://englishrussia.com/2010/02/03/russian-self-made-hummer/
What a beast that is , love it
TurboGirl
25-11-2011, 15:29
Loving the 3rd pic down... looks like a health and safety warning about why NOT to put a woodburner in a vehicle... the situations they've got that vehicle into are amazing!
Wish there was more info around on Janie Oliver's 'Cock In Cider' Bedford MK... love that vehicle and heard its available to hire B)
I picked up a decent Audi A6 Quattro estate the other day. Tow-bar, boot-liner for the dog, 100k, FSH, cams done last service, £1,500. Leather interior, 4-zone climate-control. Low ground-clearance, but good enough for 99% road-work, 1% snow, ice, mud. Not for proper off-road use, but it runs nice, and is a genuinely useful AWD car.
Quite quick, too, with a 2.4l V6.
But I'd still recommend the standard 2litre Scooby Forester.
TurboGirl
27-11-2011, 09:18
That sounds a great deal, Jeffz :) As most of the rest of us have become embrioled in pure fantasy, my offering is a 6x6 Ural campervan on the delightfully random Fleabay :) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Expedition-Motorhome-Campervan-6x6-events-Ural-4320-Diesel-/300617172253?pt=UK_Campers_Car avans_Motorhomes&hash=item45fe2e051d#ht_4967wt_ 932
That sounds a great deal, Jeffz :) As most of the rest of us have become embrioled in pure fantasy, my offering is a 6x6 Ural campervan on the delightfully random Fleabay :) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Expedition-Motorhome-Campervan-6x6-events-Ural-4320-Diesel-/300617172253?pt=UK_Campers_Car avans_Motorhomes&hash=item45fe2e051d#ht_4967wt_ 932
Possibly a bit too far into fantasy land - 13 tons unladen puts it definitely into "need a new licence to drive it" category and the 10.8 litre engine should be good for about 4 or 5 mpg. At roughly £1.25 per mile in fuel alone, it's not really the economists choice! :D
Good value if you like to spend all day running over zombies, and still be able to make a nice cappuccino afterwards in the back of the van :D
santaman2000
28-11-2011, 22:16
Sounds like a day well spent.
British Red
28-11-2011, 22:31
Now if you want a cheap vehicle, a buddy of mine just picked up a Mog for sub £3k. No tax needed, no MoT needed, about £20 a year to tax. Engine is sound as is the cab. 3pl needs a little work and he needs to make a rear body as the Hi-ab he chopped in for scrap (and got £200 of his money back). Pretty cheap utility vehicle to have around methinks - wants a stonking trailer to go with it (which he is sorting)
I'm thinking of getting a 2.4D Hilux Pickup next year. Does about 30 to the gallon on long runs and you can fit a dozen mujahideen, janjaweeds or somalian pirates in the back!
If that's the case, I'd recommend an AugustaWestland Super Lynx. Bit pricey, but will bypass most rugged-terrain issues very swiftly.