View Full Version : Alcohol Burner
This might seem to be yet another free plug for Outdoorcode, but I swear I'm not on commission. I've been using a trangia for over 30 years now on both backpacking and vehicle mounted trips, and overall I do swear by it (and often at it). I've just got the stainless steel Tatonka alcohol burner from Andrew, and it's a beauty! Fits the trangia set like the original burner, but with a greater capacity - about a third as much again, and easier to clean. Again, delivery was fast - Andrew got it in on the Monday, and I had it first post on Tuesday. I got the flame control accessory, and it seems to work better than the old trangia one. Seems to be good kit, and good price too. :)
Trangia's are jolly good things: though I prefer the smaller size and more compact fuel storage of a hexy stove, it must be said that stuff cooked on a trangia tastes nicer :)
lardbloke
25-09-2005, 10:29
I thought Tatonka just did bags, how wrong!!
Could you provide any piccz in action of the new burner and possibly a mnin review of the new burner against the trangia i.e. burning a pint of water in what time, how long the fuel lasts in comparison, dimensions of the burner???
Found a nice link, if anyone is interested in these items:
http://intranet.tatonka.com/infosys/infocgi/artinfoe.dll?4126
That looks like a useful bit of kit but I can't find it on the OC. site, does he have a shop or something?
No, Andrew'll order it for you from Tatonka.
The main question is what was the cost.
I had tried getting one of these earlier in the year and to get one imported from abroad the cost was prohibitive. Tatonka sell them for very little, but will not sell to individuals, "only businesses" was the curt reply from them.
The burner and additional flame control (for simmering) came to £10 incl p&p - but this might vary from day to day depending on the exchange rate. Best thing is to call Andrew and ask!
Thanks, he sent me a PM with the details:)
MagiKelly
26-09-2005, 15:52
Perfect timing. I was just about to buy a new burner as I wanted a clean one to use with the IMS. My current one still has lots of the dye in it.
I have actually ordered two. The price is still £10 each in case anyone is wondering. Also they are not in stock till next week as Andrew is just placing an order at the moment so if you are interested you may want to get your name down for one before he places the order. Otherwise you may have to wait a while for him to get another batch.
Adrian, can you confirm if the burner is the same diameter as the civilian Trangia? The reason I ask is that the civi trangia fits perfectly inside a steel mug I use as my brew kit.
Just want to give some feedback.
Yesterday I recieved two Tatonka burners and flame adjusters from Andrew at Outdoorcode. Nice bits of kit (shiny as well :D ). They have a larger resevoir than the Swedish Army ones they are replacing and are also lighter as well.
Burning with the flame adjuster is good although just like the Trangia one it's a bit fiddly to change once it's alight.
Pleased with the kit.
Moduser
MagiKelly
19-10-2005, 09:39
I got two as well. They work well and fit the clickstand as well. Only thing is because they are a bit deeper than the standard civi trangia it sits about 5mm higher in the clickstand. Not a problem.
Also they are fractionally wider than the civi trangia they do not fit in the steel mug I use as a brew kit but again this is not a problem as I will still use my trangia for this and keep the new ones for use with the clickstand and crusader mug.
Hi Magikelly,
When you say use with "Crusader mug" do mean the metal mug or the Crusader cooker?
I understaund that Andrew has more of these coming if anyone is interested.
MagiKelly
19-10-2005, 16:02
Hi Magikelly,
When you say use with "Crusader mug" do mean the metal mug or the Crusader cooker?
I understaund that Andrew has more of these coming if anyone is interested.
I mean the mug. I use it with the clickstand.
Thanks for that. Come to think of it there's not enough room in the cooker for a burner. :sulkoff:
I've looked at the Tatonka, and it interests me except for one thing:
It's stainless steel, and stainless steel is an absolutely horrific heat conductor. Meths dont' put out a lot of BTU's, and theres a reason why Trangia's are brass.
So how does it stack up against the original?
A.
Good question. I'll try and do a head to head at the weekend and post the results
Moduser
Bumblebee
24-10-2005, 14:26
I did some tests yesterday, and here are the results.
Setup:
Swedish army stainless steel mess kit was filled with 1 litre of cold water.
Both burners were filled to the max, ie filled until the meths level is approx 1 cm below the top.
Tests were done outdoors, but in a wind-free spot.
The mess kit lid was not used, so I could use a thermometer and to "torture" the burners a bit.
All kit was left until they had the same temperature as the surrounding air between tests.
Cost:
The Tatonka burner costs £10 inc simmering ring, for the army one it's tricky to say since they are rarely avaliable separately. Can be found for £1.50 now and then ;). Army burner wins, since you get an complete mess kit for less than the Tatonka burner.
Looks:
No question about it the Tatonka burner wins easily. It's SHINEY!
Time until the water was burning:
Both took 15 minutes to bring the water to 100 centigrades. The Tatonka burner started "jetting" immidiately but burned with a yellow flame, and generated a lot of soot! The army burner took it's time to start jetting but burned with a non-sooting big blue flame when it finally got going. Had the tests been done with both burners already at working temp the army burner would have won easily.
Conclusion:
Hard to say really, I didn't like the soot generated from the Tatonka burner but it comes with a simmering ring. I quess you have to decide yourself what's important.
MagiKelly
24-10-2005, 14:55
Funnily enough I did a similar test yesterday. I was using a standard Civi Trangia againstt he Tatainka. They were burning in a clickstand and heating 0.5l of water in a crusader mug with a lid on.
Both took 8 min and there was no noticable soot from either but I was burning IMS. I agree that the Tatonika seems to "gas ring " quicker but the civi trangia was not very far behind, a matter of 10 - 15 seconds or so.
One thing I did notice is that the Tatonia does cool down much quicker so you can pack away a lot sooner. Price wise a Civi trangia burner will cost you £10 generally so it is a draw on that front.
Magikelly/Bumblebee,
thanks for posting your tests, I didn't get round to doing the head to head at the weekend (wife had me fixing things around the house :( )
Bumblebee
24-10-2005, 15:05
... Tatainka ... Tatonika ... Tatonia ...
Itty nitty picky... You managed to miss-spell Tatonka (= buffalo in Sioux) in three different ways :)
I was using IMS as well so the sooting surprised me greatly!
/Tommy
Yes, the tatonka will cool down much faster, it's stainless steel, a horrible heat conductor. Brass on the other hand is excellent.
If you were to do a real test, you need to control for extraneous factors, and to use a thermometer. Therefore,
Go into your garage, a place with a still wind.
Fill each stove with an equal amount of meths.
Fill each stove's pot with an equal amount of water, and make sure the water is the same temperature.
Light each of the stoves simultaneously.
Time how long each stove takes to boil, and also check temperature jumps from time to time.
That's about the most accurate test you can do for a stove, IMHO.
Bumblebee
24-10-2005, 15:09
Go into your garage, a place with a still wind.
Fill each stove with an equal amount of meths.
Fill each stove's pot with an equal amount of water, and make sure the water is the same temperature.
Light each of the stoves simultaneously.
Time how long each stove takes to boil, and also check temperature jumps from time to time.
That's about the most accurate test you can do for a stove, IMHO.
Yup, did all that except I used our shed instead of a garage.
MagiKelly
24-10-2005, 15:15
And I did mine in the kitchen.
Also I thought if I spelled it differently each time one of them was bound to be correct :rolleyes:
And I did mine in the kitchen.
Also I thought if I spelled it differently each time one of them was bound to be correct :rolleyes:
Well i got them real old one plus the new trangia 12 oz boil 5 min. I got 3 of them jiffy heet ones all alum. boil time 3 min. 12 oz plus the jiffy no need pot stand its all in the box about 3 in sq. ok thats all i got to say for now
I'm still not sold on the Tatonka burner. Here's why:
I think I've said it twice in this thread already, stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor. In fact, Trangia quotes this on their webpage, that meths dont put out enought BTU's to cook properly with a stainless steel pot. And so they came up with duossal, which is cookware that is aluminum on the outside (aluminum is an amazing heat conducting metal, perhaps second to gold) and stainless steel on the inside of the pot for hygenic reasons.
And so my feeling is that a stainless steel meth burner won't do the trick as well as brass. Of course, that shiny new Trangia burner that a person buys the previous year is obviously dark and corroded by now. :lmao:
Now, your test is as all very good and well, but I won't be completely sold on the Tatonka burner until I see some real-world use.
The Fall season is upon us, and winter will be coming soon. Perhaps you could do a winter bushcraft exercise and let us know how it works out? A shed is one thing, but below freezing temperatues and howling winds at altitude are another.
And then can you answer a question for me? Will Trangia/Tatonka burners melt a pot of snow in the wintertime? Or is meth's low BTU output only good for 3 season backpacking?
Cheers mate!
Adam
capacious
06-03-2006, 12:19
Well addyb, in case you were still having sleepless nights over this, I thought I'd answer your questions.
I went out in deepest darkest february and tested all the burners as well as I could.
All meths burners melted snow, and oddly enough, the tatonka did it first by quite a margin. I guess this may be because stainless steel gains heat as fast as it loses it.
I think I've said it twice in this thread already, stainless steel is a very poor heat conductor. In fact, Trangia quotes this on their webpage, that meths dont put out enought BTU's to cook properly with a stainless steel pot. And so they came up with duossal, which is cookware that is aluminum on the outside (aluminum is an amazing heat conducting metal, perhaps second to gold) and stainless steel on the inside of the pot for hygenic reasons.
I was cooking in a Tatonka kettle and a crusader cup, both stainless steel, and both worked just fine with the meths burners. I've never used anything but stainless steel as cookware, so I can't say that they are better or worse than any other, but they certainly worked for me.
If you consider the prices of all three burners, £10 for the tatonka with flame adjuster, £13.50 for the civi trangia with flame adjuster and £10 for the swedish army trangia with a whole cookset and windshield, then I would say that if you were on a tight budget go for the Army Trangia. Otherwise, you can get whatever suits you.
The differences in performance are so utterly miniscule that you would have to be the most anal person in existence to moan about having to wait an extra 3 seconds for your boiled water.
I will be sticking with the Totonka, partly because it cools down faster, and partly because I lost my trangia burner :cussing:
And also, meths burners are fantastic at low temperatures - it is one of trangias selling points. Below freezing, gas burners become ludicrously inefficient. The only other option is petrol stoves, which are bulky, heavy, and if you accidentally spill fuel on the lit burner :aargh4: you'd be pretty knackered.
In the 'real world', the differences that set one above another in a lab test have no meaning.
If you want a meths burner, but fancy something different to what the crowds have, then tatonka is for you.
If you want great after sales service then trangia are far better.
If you just want to cook some breakfast, then get whatever the hell you like.
Jake.
If youre going to be doing some cooking on the fire you cant beat the flexibility of the Swedish army kit, though they are pretty slow when used with the burner.
I think the windhsield/stove support/pot have more effect on cooking times than the burner. For lightweight, efficiency and value I like this set up, one with civvy burner one with army burner, add a lightweight pot of your choice
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/trangias.jpg
they weigh next to nothing, pack to nothing and with an MSR foil windshield they boil a pint in under 5 minutes, they also cost me nothing to make and Ive designed them so that I can slip a nitelight underneath to preheat the burner in ultra quick time. Ive tested them with a 20L pot on top so theyre pretty tough as well.
LOL and Ive just noticed the smaller one of the two is assembled inside out, the potstands should be pointing the other way, not that it matters particularly :o
Ive edited this post to say it brings a pint to the boil in under 5 minutes, not as previously stated under 4 minutes, thats in a approx 2.5L stainless steel whistling kettle with the burner already up to temp, ambient temp in the garden 6 degC and water temp started off at approx 7.5 deg. Tested using regular blue meths and the swedish army burner.
They look excellent Jason. Which burner is which?
MagiKelly
06-03-2006, 13:22
You wouldn't happen to have a spare one of those that you wanted rid of Jason? :)
They look excellent Jason. Which burner is which?
Scanker, the one on the left of the pic is the trangia, the bigger one on the right is the army burner.
The design is not really mine though, Ive based them on pictures Ive seeen of the no longer produced Westwind, with a few tweaks. Those two are stainless but you could make them out of any sheet metal of sufficient strength. The only thing to watch is that they hug the burner tightly, if you get the dimensions wrong they could end up being a bit rattly and wobbly.
You wouldn't happen to have a spare one of those that you wanted rid of Jason? :)
Ive made a few to give to mates John but cutting stainless sheet by hand in any quantity can get a bit tedious and painful :rolleyes: so no spares Im afraid, but they are pretty easy to make if you have some tin snips and a couple of hours. Motorbikeman has a copy of my plans for both of them that he's supposed to be scanning and hosting somewhere :rolleyes: I could post out paper templates though if anybody wants a set.
Or you can always spend a small fortune on the prettier and more complicated clickstand to do exactly the same job ;)
This is what they look like dissasembled, army burner on the right and a complete kit with trangia burner, stand, windshield and a very small pot in the bag.
http://www.jasonbhall.freeserve.co.uk/stands.jpg
capacious
06-03-2006, 15:44
Has anyone got a link to this clickstand which is mentioned rather alot?
I'm looking for something to use with a meths burner but without having to lug around a full trangia for 300 miles.
Jake.
http://www.clikstand.com/
Well here is one kind that i make for mine cost less its 1/16 x1-1/4 alum. get it at the hardware store about 4 ft long make a cross put slots to fit my two cents it must touch the ridge
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/tan.jpg
Well here is one kind that i make for mine cost less its 1/16 x1-1/4 alum. get it at the hardware store about 4 ft long make a cross put slots to fit my two cents it must touch the ridge
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/tan.jpg
Ooops, your picture looks a bit small, I cant make anything out?
capacious
07-03-2006, 11:26
Thanks. oops56, have you got a bigger picture?
Thanks,
Jake.
I've looked at the Tatonka, and it interests me except for one thing:
It's stainless steel, and stainless steel is an absolutely horrific heat conductor. Meths dont' put out a lot of BTU's, and theres a reason why Trangia's are brass.
So how does it stack up against the original?
A.
The original is quite a bit better IMO in several ways. I found the original quicker tyo heat up and burned with a hotter flame and I found the seal and screw on cap of the original to be better. Just my opinion of course, others may differ.
MagiKelly
07-03-2006, 11:53
The original is quite a bit better IMO in several ways. I found the original quicker tyo heat up and burned with a hotter flame and I found the seal and screw on cap of the original to be better. Just my opinion of course, others may differ.
I tried the steel one for a few trips but always felt it was slower. I have no evidence to this effect but it just seemed that way so I switched back to the civi version.
I tried the steel one for a few trips but always felt it was slower. I have no evidence to this effect but it just seemed that way so I switched back to the civi version.
Same here really John, no evidence, I just felt the civvi burner was better.
Could someone just clarify the difference between the army burner and the civi burner? I got the Swedish Army kit after seeing one at the Kent meet, I really like it but it's a bit bulky just making a cuppa whilst out walking (which is why I've got my eye on the Trangia mini or the clikstand...)
Thanks,
Hellz
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=3080
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=3080
Perfect, ta :D
Think I'm gonna be getting a mini! :rolleyes:
Hellz
Well here is one kind that i make for mine cost less its 1/16 x1-1/4 alum. get it at the hardware store about 4 ft long make a cross put slots to fit my two cents it must touch the ridge
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/tan.jpg
Oh I like it! Very neat and clever idea, thats even simpler than mine! I will definately be trying that. Only snag I see is maybe slight lack stability and inability to use a simmer ring?
ok got the pic bigger
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d52/oops62/xts.jpg
(which is why I've got my eye on the Trangia mini or the clikstand...)
Had to pop to the post office to post a parcel and 'accidentally' fell into field and trek on the way back to work... ;)
Got myself a Trangia Mini, I will report in due course :D
Hellz