View Full Version : Epi Pens
In case you come across one - the new style auto injectors are now starting to make it on to the scene.
Video about them here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjILFYPE3Uw).
Nice thing is - you don't get left with an exposed dirty sharp bit after you use it.
Leonidas
12-11-2011, 22:58
Greatly improved, would love to get one for the medi kit..
whats wrong with you all
12-11-2011, 23:43
Greatly improved, would love to get one for the medi kit..
how so? I'm just wondering, since if a person did need one, they would have it on their person.
bikething
13-11-2011, 00:11
how so? I'm just wondering, since if a person did need one, they would have it on their person.
Only if they knew they needed one... unless they've had a reaction before, they wouldn't know..
Very important not to stray in to prescribing something and administering a drug to someone that has not been prescribed by a Doc - unless you are suitably qualified to do so.
There is the obvious moral dilemma if you had one with you and someone experienced their first anaphalaxis.
It is important to get training in order to use EpiPens. There are courses out there that can certify practitioners to use the EpiPen. In the UK the Remote Emergency Care crowd have this in their curriculum at the REC 4 level.
Nice bit of kit with the safety needle.
Only if they knew they needed one... unless they've had a reaction before, they wouldn't know..
Are you qualified to diagnose a person in need then administer the epi pen?
I would hope that Bikething is qualified to recognise the condition - as he has been on one of our expedition med courses. If not - i haven't done my job properly ;-)
ECP courses cover this kind of thing at Level 2/3 - as it is pretty important.
I would hope that Bikething is qualified to recognise the condition - as he has been on one of our expedition med courses. If not - i haven't done my job properly ;-)
ECP courses cover this kind of thing at Level 2/3 - as it is pretty important.
But should he or you be carrying epi pens? Expedition maybe, UK...no IMHO. Know how to use one and use a patient/casualties own pen but don't carry your own and 'think' you are right to give it; potentially a very dangerous thing to do.
To the best of my knowledge, Bikething will not be carrying an epi-pen in the UK on a routine basis. The training that he received means that he should be more than capable of identifying the problem and administering to someone with a known condition / their own stash.
I carry one in the UK on a regular basis, but that comes down to training and what i do for a living. Overseas, I don't carry autoinjectors - I use the old fashioned route.
We do not teach you can carry an Edipen or any drug in the UK environment.
To carry an Epipen or any POM in the UK without a script is illegal. Whether you acquired it from a friend, abroad or stole it.
If you choose to carry a POM without a script you leave yourself open to prosecution.
On expedition abroad if you have the relevant training then you can carry and prescribe a POM. I would advise you get medical advise from the UK first and it is strongly advised that any POM's you do carry are sourced on a UK script and not bought over the counter in country. The reason being if something does go wrong there will be an investigation and possible legal tribunal.
All arguments over training, rights to carry and the rest aside there is one simple reason for not carrying an Epi Pen just in case;
cost
A pen has a usable life of around 6 months and they cost £30 plus.
Is it worth the hassle of sourcing pens and paying £60 to £100 a year for something you may never use? How many of us have come across severe anaphylaxis in a previously undiagnosed casualty, other than medical professionals and responders who go looking for this kind of thing :-) Even then, it's not exactly a day to day occurance.
Better save the cash and stock your kit with more useful bits that don't have a shelf life and high cost.
santaman2000
14-11-2011, 14:08
We do not teach you can carry an Edipen or any drug in the UK environment.
To carry an Epipen or any POM in the UK without a script is illegal. Whether you acquired it from a friend, abroad or stole it.
If you choose to carry a POM without a script you leave yourself open to prosecution.
On expedition abroad if you have the relevant training then you can carry and prescribe a POM...
I'd think that last statement is highly dependent on the laws of the host country.
If you are in a position to lead an expedition or to do medical cover for one then I would hope you would know the law. If you don't you have no right being in a position of responsibility.
There is no country that would stop a trained expedition medic from treating a member of the expedition in country. Start treating the local population you might open yourself up to problems. It is however wise to check what drugs you wish to take with you are legal in that country as not all drugs available in the UK are legal in other countries. That also goes for drugs obtained in other countries that you may decide to bring back to the UK. Some drugs available in the states are illegal here, including some over the counter products.
An important thing to remember is 'ignorance of the law is not a valid defence'.
As someone who carries an epi pen (cleg bites) and has a permanent prescription so that when one dates out I have a fresh one to hand, I can categorically state that the only ones I've ever seen are 'Auto-Injector' and leave no exposed sharp end, and that the use by date has always been at least a year.
My present prescription is dated 10/03/11 and the exp date on the pen itself is 04-2012
The thought of managing to stay cool headed enough to stab myself with this one is bad enough, the thought that I would have to manage the co-ordination to effectively fill a syringe too, is not funny, especially since the likely symptoms include, "shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps and insome cases, loss of consciousness".
If it's of any help, my Doctors tell me that should I present at hospital with anaphylaxis then the epi pen is the last thing they would use. First response is anti histamine, not adrenaline. The very same anti histamines that are available in packs of seven in every poundstore in the land.
Hoping no one (me included) ever needs the pen, but it's rather reassuring (to me *and* to my family and friends) that it's available.
cheers,
Toddy
bikething
14-11-2011, 19:39
Are you qualified to diagnose a person in need then administer the epi pen?Yes. I’ve had training to recognise an anaphylactic reaction, and to use an EpiPen.
But should he or you be carrying epi pens? Expedition maybe, UK...no IMHO. There’s a reason why it’s called an “expedition” medical course. Some of us don’t restrict our travels to a 5-room tent with built in Jacuzzi on a Caravan club approved site :
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Bikething/borneo.jpg
Know how to use one and use a patient/casualties own pen but don't carry your own and 'think' you are right to give it; potentially a very dangerous thing to do.At £40 a pop with a 6 month shelf life I have no intention of carrying one myself in the UK (unless a doctor prescribes that I need one).
Still it's useful knowing how to use one on a casualty who is unable to use their own :p
bikething
14-11-2011, 19:44
... the only ones I've ever seen are 'Auto-Injector' and leave no exposed sharp end.. The pointy bit isn't exposed until after you have used it .. :)
......the pharmacist made a point of demonstrating to my husband with an out of date one, the point isn't accessible once the thumb pressure is released. It retracts.
cheers,
M
bikething
14-11-2011, 20:17
......the pharmacist made a point of demonstrating to my husband with an out of date one, the point isn't accessible once the thumb pressure is released. It retracts.
cheers,
MGuess there's different types out there - is "auto-injector" the brand name / manufacturer ? I thought it was just a generic description of the pen thingy.. a bit like "hoover" :)
If it's of any help, my Doctors tell me that should I present at hospital with anaphylaxis then the epi pen is the last thing they would use. First response is anti histamine, not adrenaline. The very same anti histamines that are available in packs of seven in every pound store in the land.
Toddy
Your doctor is correct Toddy (as one would expect). The adrenaline is used by casualties, first responders and sometime, A&E departments as the initial treatment to give time to administer anti histamine and give it time to start working. In an overseas expedition as a medic if you are going to carry adrenalin it is important to carry anti histamine too. Normally in the form of chlorpheniramine 4mg every 8 hours orally as stated in the included literature. In very bad cases it might be necessary to inject the first dose of chlorpheniramine from instructions a doctor has given you prior to your trip or much better over a sat phone whilst you are dealing with the casualty.
......the pharmacist made a point of demonstrating to my husband with an out of date one, the point isn't accessible once the thumb pressure is released. It retracts.
cheers,
M
I don't know what product this was but by saying thumb pressure suggests it was not an Epipen. The old style Epipens, which are still available in the UK, once fired left the needle exposed.
From the other side of things; it's damned scary when my own body starts reacting and there's nothing I can do to stop it :sigh:
By the time I feel my heart fluttering like a bird trapped in my chest I reckon I need help; now! The bite on my throat that threatened my breathing though.....that was most unpleasant :(
I'm very glad, and grateful, that people take the time and trouble to suss out how to, why to, and when to, help, when either I can't, or someone else can't help themselves, either.
Mine is simply labelled, in the manufacturer's box...EpiPen, Auto-Injector 0.3mg, Adrenaline (Epinephrine) Solution for injection for intramuscular use. Delivers one sinle dose (0.3ml) of 0.3mg Adrenaline (Epinephrine). Injects medicine for Allergic Emergencies (Anaphylaxis)
This is my third one so it's not a new-new development, iimmc.
I live near water, lots of water, clegs are commonplace at some times of year. I do get bitten, I do react, but the antihistamines have so far been incredibly effective.
Don't underestimate a simple across the counter solution. I do find the effect is better with anti inflammatory (ibuprofen, again commonly available) too though.
I wouldn't risk foreign travel or camp without the EpiPen. My family and friends know I *always* have anti histamines with me, (spy capsule on my keyring, among other places) and those closest to me have all been shown the pen and given the instructions to read.
This wasn't just for my sake, but it helped reassure them too; that they knew what to do should there be an issue I couldn't deal with. Not fair to leave them worrying.
It's a bit of bu88er, but it's life; sod's law and all that.
The *really* scary bit is how many children are allergic to so many things nowadays :( not just someone like me who's been bitten so often that my body sees it coming now and over reacts.
cheers,
M
I haven't used it Adi; the pharmacist said that without pressure it would be into the leg and out again and safely inside the pen and it can't be reused.
The instructions say to hold it against the outer thigh for ten seconds.
It comes in a rather robust plastic tube that we're supposed to put the pen back into, put the bung back on, and hand the whole thing into the chemist or surgery when possible.
cheers,
M
The kids thing is frightening indeed. As is having your body doing something crazy.
From the work that I do at schools, an epipen bumbag used to be something that you could occasionally see - nowadays, it does not surprise me to see half a dozen kids out of a group of 30-40, plus another one on a TA or other member of staff - containing spares.
I often wonder if it is something more of a "just in case" thing with some kids, who have bad allergies that may not have been prescribed for a few years ago but now carry one "just in case the next time it is worse".
For those who do have them prescribed, it is good to know that you can log your pen with the epipen website and they will send you a reminder when it is time to get a new one.
Yes. I’ve had training to recognise an anaphylactic reaction, and to use an EpiPen.
There’s a reason why it’s called an “expedition” medical course. Some of us don’t restrict our travels to a 5-room tent with built in Jacuzzi on a Caravan club approved site :
http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Bikething/borneo.jpg
At £40 a pop with a 6 month shelf life I have no intention of carrying one myself in the UK (unless a doctor prescribes that I need one).
Still it's useful knowing how to use one on a casualty who is unable to use their own :p
Good to know. Lets keep things simple, doing a course is one thing, doing it for real is a totally different world. I was involved in dozens of cardiac arrests in Nursing and no matter how many times the shout went out, you ring goes tight and you have to make yourself think. Simple as simple can be is the order of the day in first aid situations.
PS I only have four bedrooms in the family tent :)
PPS got a porta potti in the summer sales :)
bikething
14-11-2011, 21:15
Good to know. Lets keep things simple, doing a course is one thing, doing it for real is a totally different world. Hopefully I'll never have to do it for real... but if i do, I think it's better to do the course, then do it for real
.. rather than the other way round :eek:
I was involved in dozens of cardiac arrests in Nursing and no matter how many times the shout went out, you ring goes tight and you have to make yourself think. Simple as simple can be is the order of the day in first aid situations.In the absence of a plentiful supply of real casualties (I'd like to keep it that way ;)) I'll have to make do with the occasional course to get my practice
PS I only have four bedrooms in the family tent :) that's more than I've got in the house! LOL
PPS got a porta potti in the summer sales :)I ain't lugging one o' them through the jungle :)
santaman2000
14-11-2011, 21:41
If you are in a position to lead an expedition or to do medical cover for one then I would hope you would know the law. If you don't you have no right being in a position of responsibility.
There is no country that would stop a trained expedition medic from treating a member of the expedition in country. Start treating the local population you might open yourself up to problems...
It is however wise to check what drugs you wish to take with you are legal in that country as not all drugs available in the UK are legal in other countries. That also goes for drugs obtained in other countries that you may decide to bring back to the UK. Some drugs available in the states are illegal here, including some over the counter products...
On your 1st point; I agree. That was pretty much the same point I was making.
On your 2nd point; I'm not so sure. Here it's regulated by the individual states and I know of no state that has a separate standard of care for foreigners. However I suppose expeds here might be limited to less remote sites where the issue wouldn't come up.
On the 3rd point; again I agree, but I don't believe it's going to be an issue for Epi.
I haven't used it Adi; the pharmacist said that without pressure it would be into the leg and out again and safely inside the pen and it can't be reused.
The instructions say to hold it against the outer thigh for ten seconds.
It comes in a rather robust plastic tube that we're supposed to put the pen back into, put the bung back on, and hand the whole thing into the chemist or surgery when possible.
cheers,
M
I would suggest when this one runs out you get yourself an orange and you use it on the orange just so you know what it feels like to use one. Like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GYruyl9_j8
kiltedpict
14-11-2011, 22:18
I remember as a student nurse practicing on an orange! Brings back memories :)
As someone who carries an epi pen (cleg bites) and has a permanent prescription so that when one dates out I have a fresh one to hand, I can categorically state that the only ones I've ever seen are 'Auto-Injector' and leave no exposed sharp end, and that the use by date has always been at least a year.
My present prescription is dated 10/03/11 and the exp date on the pen itself is 04-2012
The thought of managing to stay cool headed enough to stab myself with this one is bad enough, the thought that I would have to manage the co-ordination to effectively fill a syringe too, is not funny, especially since the likely symptoms include, "shortness of breath, nausea, vomiting, stomach cramps and insome cases, loss of consciousness".
If it's of any help, my Doctors tell me that should I present at hospital with anaphylaxis then the epi pen is the last thing they would use. First response is anti histamine, not adrenaline. The very same anti histamines that are available in packs of seven in every poundstore in the land.
Hoping no one (me included) ever needs the pen, but it's rather reassuring (to me *and* to my family and friends) that it's available.
cheers,
Toddy
I have had to Epi myself and it is a terrifying experience. I have had two severe reactions and to this day we have no idea what caused them. The second one I used the Epi as we live about 40 minutes form the nearest hospital and ambulance service here is a joke. Staying cool enough to stab yourself is the hard part. My reaction started when I was sound asleep of all things. I suddenly woke up with that doom feeling and knew right away what was happening. I had the presence of mind to get my wedding ring off as the first time I swelled up so bad it was killing me. It looked like the metal staple between two sausages.
I made it downstairs and the world started to fade really fast. I sat down before I fell down and stabbed myself in the side of the leg. The effect is amazing. It's not like, "Wow everything is OK!" It's more like, "Wow, I'm still here!" (and I still really feel like crap) They do buy you some time but aren't really a treatment. If you do have to use one expect a really sore leg the day after. Maybe I was just really keyed up and aggressive with it but its like getting punched in the leg with a narrow baton tipped with a needle. I sincerely hope you never need one. Mac
I would carry one still but my spare is now out of date and I can't get them here in Brazil.
Thanks Adi, I might well try that :)
Pict, I really hope neither of us have to use the pens, but thank you for adding your experiences; I admit I have wondered just what it might feel like to both need and have administered the epipen.
Have you looked at the research results from the American military testing of 'out of date' pharmaceuticals ?
Makes for very interesting reading. Apart from nitroglycerine heart medicines, insulin, liquid anti biotics and certain water purification tablets, virtually all pharmaceuticals are thoroughly effective beyond their supposed 'expiry' dates. Apparantly dispensing chemists routinely put the date at a year from date they re-packaged or sold the drugs, regardless of the manufacturer's own expiry dates.
The research has literally saved the American military millions of dollars with no loss of efficacy of the medicines.
cheers,
Toddy
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 00:12
True Toddy but as epinephrine and insulin are both hormones, I suspect they might expire on a similar schedule to one another. Just a guess though. At any rate since epinephrine is used for emergencies would you really want to depend on it? At at the same time, if all you had was an expired one, what are your choices?
Much my point tbh, especially if they aren't available in Brazil. Tbh if experience showed my reaction to be so dire I think I'd try to source and import if necessary.
Storage can be critical with them though; high temperatures in particular seem to be very detrimental to the contents of the pen.
cheers,
M
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 02:16
Yeah, temperature is the problem for my diabetic meds also. Not on insulin but I was injecting Byetta for years until last week when I was switched to Victoza (also injected) Supposedly no need to refrigerate but the listed temp range (40ish up to 86F) isn't realistic in the outdoors here in Summer. An insulated lunch bag with a cold pack works for a day trip but after that I'm S.O.L.
"Have you looked at the research results from the American military testing of 'out of date' pharmaceuticals ?"
Interesting point. There were thousands of morphine ampoules recovered from a WW2 ship wreck and the drug was still perfect, some of the morphine issued to troops in the Falklands was packed in WW2 as well. I cleared out an old first aid kit last year, one I'd taken to the 2006 bushmoot and there was a Ventolin inhaler dated 2007 and my lad used it when he ran out/lost his one weekend...worked and did the job. I'm not advocating relying on out of date drugs but it makes you think how many are wasted. Don't know if it still happens but the NHS used to send out of date antibiotics to third world countries.
Have you looked at the research results from the American military testing of 'out of date' pharmaceuticals ?
Makes for very interesting reading. Apart from nitroglycerine heart medicines, insulin, liquid anti biotics and certain water purification tablets, virtually all pharmaceuticals are thoroughly effective beyond their supposed 'expiry' dates. Apparantly dispensing chemists routinely put the date at a year from date they re-packaged or sold the drugs, regardless of the manufacturer's own expiry dates.
The research has literally saved the American military millions of dollars with no loss of efficacy of the medicines.
cheers,
Toddy
Can anyone provide a link for this please? I've heard of the report but I think its been pulled down from most websites due to pharma-Industrial pressure. I 'd be interested in reading it if anyone can stick an active link up.
thanks
I do need to get a new pair of Epi-pens. I still have the expired one. As noted they are not cheap, I do need a prescription, and they are only available to me in the US. So for me all the planets have to align. Most of the time I go back the US it is for six months to a year and I keep telling myself that I'll get a new pair of epi's at the end of my stay so they won't expire so soon after I get back home.
"Have you looked at the research results from the American military testing of 'out of date' pharmaceuticals ?"
Interesting point. There were thousands of morphine ampoules recovered from a WW2 ship wreck and the drug was still perfect, some of the morphine issued to troops in the Falklands was packed in WW2 as well. I cleared out an old first aid kit last year, one I'd taken to the 2006 bushmoot and there was a Ventolin inhaler dated 2007 and my lad used it when he ran out/lost his one weekend...worked and did the job. I'm not advocating relying on out of date drugs but it makes you think how many are wasted. Don't know if it still happens but the NHS used to send out of date antibiotics to third world countries.
Just been to the docs to have my inhalers renewed, both were 18 months out of date and if it wasnt for the missus spotting the date i would still be using them :rolleyes:
On your 2nd point; I'm not so sure. Here it's regulated by the individual states and I know of no state that has a separate standard of care for foreigners. However I suppose expeds here might be limited to less remote sites where the issue wouldn't come up.
The definition of expedition medicine is more than 4 hours from professional medical care.
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 14:34
The definition of expedition medicine is more than 4 hours from professional medical care.
Difficult to imagine. I can certainly imagine many places (even here) that are more than 4 hours from professional medical care BUT...If a group were truly called an "expedition" then one would think that a foray to such a place would include a properly equipped medical "professional."
More than 4 hrs to medical care can cover many areas in the UK. Even in well travelled areas such as the Brecon Beacons it can take a MR team many hours to reach a casualty.
Once you take into account delays in altering the MR incident controller (sometimes a surprisingly long time, you've got to love Police PolSARs!), paging the team, mobilising and driving to the roadhead/RV just getting to the area can take a couple of hours. Then even if you know the casualty location it may take a few hours to walk in with medical equipment, especially if the weather is bad and an Air Ambulance or RAF heli isn't an option. If it is a search before rescue then in a worst case scenario you could be talking tens of hours before a drugs pack is on site. With that sort of delay an Epi pen very well may be pointless by the time help gets there.
I'd say carrying an Epi pen is an expensive and often pointless exercise in the UK for the "non-professional". The chances of someone developing a reaction without prior indicators (eg. family history) is pretty low. Most people will never have a severe reaction so why carry one. Using the "just in case" argument you can justify carrying lots of shiney kit you'll never use. It may be fun also pointless.
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 17:37
Agreed, there are definitely places where medical care is beyond 4 hours (especially if you factor in the search time) I suppose what I was/am struggling with here is the definition of an expedition; it just seems to me that, as stated, a qualified and equipped medical professional would be a member of such a group. If you do have such a member then obviously you're carrying your professional medical care along with you and therefore cain't be 4 hours from it.
All that said, when I take my family into the deep woods (or sometimes not so deep) my preferred choice of meds are OTC anti-histamines and anti-itch creams. Granted, none of us have any known allergies; none that anything I could carry would help anyway (I don't count my daughter's Celiac condition nor her Crohn's Disease as allergies) I suspect the best thing I could carry for her on deep trips (and need to get one) is a personal EPRB.
Agreed, there are definitely places where medical care is beyond 4 hours (especially if you factor in the search time) I suppose what I was/am struggling with here is the definition of an expedition; it just seems to me that, as stated, a qualified and equipped medical professional would be a member of such a group. If you do have such a member then obviously you're carrying your professional medical care along with you and therefore cannot be 4 hours from it.
All that said, when I take my family into the deep woods (or sometimes not so deep) my preferred choice of meds are OTC anti-histamines and anti-itch creams. Granted, none of us have any known allergies; none that anything I could carry would help anyway (I don't count my daughter's Celiac condition nor her Crohn's Disease as allergies) I suspect the best thing I could carry for her on deep trips (and need to get one) is a personal EPRB.
I believe it is called Wilderness First Aid in the States. Laws are different world wide so courses from one county might be different to those in another country but most are recognised worldwide. Expedition medicine in the UK is more like advanced first aid really although the courses go up in complexity. The first two courses are aimed at UK trips into the hills and just touch on some advanced skills to provide a slightly higher level of life support. The second two courses are aimed at foreign travellers and goes into a higher level of life support, some drug use and IV therapy (although IV has to be taught by a medical health professional with the relevant qualification). Then there is a 5th course for Health professionals. You can also go on to do PHTLS and ATLS if you are really that way inclined although doing these courses it is still advisable to do the 5th course.
If you are on a large money trip that can afford a doctor they will still want Expedition medics/first aiders on the team because the doctor often needs help or stays back at base camp.
Why would you do one of these courses? Well if you work with and take kids into the wilds then you need the qualification. But most people that do courses do them because they want a slightly higher knowledge for when they go on holidays or on trips into the hills for their friends and family, many people who take part in adventure sports also come on the courses.
I made the point earlier, epi pens are really there to give time during normal day to day life and don't have much use in remote locations unless you carry POM strength antihistamines but if you have been proscribed Epipen the POM drugs should not be an issue as you would normally be on a script for them too I believe. And if not if you were to speak to your GP I would have thought they would happy to prescribe you a suitable script if you were doing something out of the ordinary.
Nigel Am I hear what you are saying about PolSAR but I think it is important for any SAR team to build a good relationship with its PolSAR officers. Once they have the respect for the team the team will be deployed a lot faster and more often, especially as the teams improve their standards.
So by definition standing in line at the government medicine clinic here is considered expedition medicine... learn something new every day.
So by definition standing in line at the government medicine clinic here is considered expedition medicine... learn something new every day.
LOL yeap. That is why its time and not distance. If over 4 hours from definitive care then you can start treating people. lol
Nigel Am I hear what you are saying about PolSAR but I think it is important for any SAR team to build a good relationship with its PolSAR officers. Once they have the respect for the team the team will be deployed a lot faster and more often, especially as the teams improve their standards.
We have a couple of PolSARs in the team. Joking aside they're not that bad :-) It's not their fault that at times the communication within the Police service and with other agencies can be a bit confused. Something for us to all work on and improve.
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 22:44
I believe it is called Wilderness First Aid in the States...
If you are on a large money trip that can afford a doctor they will still want Expedition medics/first aiders on the team...
Why would you do one of these courses? Well if you work with and take kids into the wilds then you need the qualification...
...if you have been proscribed Epipen the POM drugs should not be an issue as you would normally be on a script for them too I believe. And if not if you were to speak to your GP I would have thought they would happy to prescribe you a suitable script if you were doing something out of the ordinary...
On your 1st point, We only have one level of 1st aid here. It's the general course taught by either the Red Cross or a commercial company teaching industrial 1st aid to satisfy OSHA requirements. Either of them are based on the premise of, "stabilize and call 911." Additional courses are for 1st responders (cops, firemen, EMTs, etc. that might be responding to an emergency) They are progressively more advanced but they too are based on stabilize for transport. There are some courses taught for wilderness type situations but generally they're not certified or accredited in any way.
On your 2nd point I expect you're right about a Dr. remaining in base camp but I suppose I was vague about what I was considering to be a medical "professional." I was including EMTs (Emergency Medical Technicians) and Paramedics in my estimation of "professional."
On your 3rd point, the only requirement here for taking kids (medical requirement) is the same as for caring for them in an urban day care center. Namely basic 1st aid & CPR certification; although I expect for liability purposes you'd want something more (preferably a good evac plan) I suppose I'm being presumptuous in this statement as I don't know the law in every state but I believe it's generally consistent.
On your 4th point I agree completely.
On your 1st point, We only have one level of 1st aid here.
Really? What are these courses then? http://www.remotemedical.com/wilderness-medicine-training#!&ea_c=Training-Education-Group
Really? What are these courses then? http://www.remotemedical.com/wilderness-medicine-training#!&ea_c=Training-Education-Group
I meant to add this Quote... "is recognized world-wide by groups such as the American Mountain Guides Association, the Association of Canadian Mountain Guides, the US Government, as well as major outdoor programs."
santaman2000
15-11-2011, 23:34
Adi those courses are nothing more than a commercial organization teaching for profit. I haven't taken them so I have no idea if they are actually any good or not. The fact that they are recognized by such organizations as The American Mountain Guides Assn, The Assn of Canadian Mountain Guides, etc. means nothing because none of these organizations are recognized either. The statement that they are recognized by the US government is equally meaningless as medical certification here is done by the individual states and the federal government has no authority beyond approving drugs (the FDA) and whatever medicine is practiced in the military (even that must fall within state guidelines)
In short, that ad is a misleading commercial solicitation bordering on an outright falsehood.