View Full Version : Bush classes on BcUSA.
I'm sure a few of us cross the waters from time to time to check out our brothers and sisters forum, I have been reading their bush class (http://www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showpost.php?p=784401&postcount=1) forum more an more, Do you guys reckon it would work here? I like the idea, a collective and dedicated way of encouraging certain skill groups:cool:
Do you think it would work here?
Would you take part?
would you like to keep the same template as the BcUSA classes (http://www.bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27539)?
And to Tone, Admins and Mods, do you think it would work? has it been tried and problems found? would you be willing to work with it or would it add to much to the work load?
Many thanks chaps!
Southey.
John Fenna
18-09-2011, 14:24
I am currently doing my bushy trips to finish off my "Basic" - I think it is great and could well work over here!
I see that the "intermediate" has just been posted :) I am looking forward to that too!
i've seen them and would definantly try them. but i've not spent much time on the other site
i think the bushclass is a great idea on BCUSA, often spend time going thought peoples post to get ideas.
Like John I've done the required lessons and electives just got to do the outings for the Basic.
Really enjoyed participating , good fun and would be great to have something similar here too.
Pete.
man_of_tanith
18-09-2011, 23:00
personally i like the idea of a group online learning as it were
if it could be done here i dunno but i would give it a go if it does pan out
Seems like I can't view that section as it's private, and I'm not a member ... I think I get the idea and thought behind it, though if anyone could elaborate about this concept I'd really appreciate it :)
Mesquite
19-09-2011, 10:20
Seems like I can't view that section as it's private, and I'm not a member ... I think I get the idea and thought behind it, though if anyone could elaborate about this concept I'd really appreciate it :)
Join up... you know you want another bushcraft site to while your time away on when BcUK is slow :rolleyes: :lmao:
Looooooooooooong PM sent Johan!:)
man_of_tanith
19-09-2011, 17:50
get comfy johan
and give it some thought i think it could be a very good section for this site
No, I don't think it's a good idea.
I think it'd be all too easy for it to become, "more bushcraftier than thou"
I come on here to relax, to see what my friends are up to, to see something new to try, to read what others are doing at whatever season we're in.
Not to do scout type proficiency badges. Not to amass wee certificates.
Does one have to then do the little tests on every forum to carry visible proof of one's proficiency ? or do they get affixed to the avatar and carried around like the medals on a Russian general ?
What about folks who've done the courses with Backwoods, Woodsmoke, Forest Knights, Footsteps of Discovery ? Do they get to add their certificates to their running total too ?
For me, and a great many others, Bushcraft = chill the hell out asap :) I'd rather it stayed that way.
cheers,
Toddy
no there doesn't have to be any kind of certificate or tag afixed to it, just a kind of free teaching forum in a directed way, why would any other school certs have to be involved? you can still learn and relax at the same time cant you? why would you have to do tests on other forums?, i don't think it would be a one up man-ship thing and certainly not a craftier than though, just a way of focussing on core skill in a cost free way.:)
resnikov
19-09-2011, 19:23
I like the idea as it gives you a goal and maybe steps to help you achieve that goal. Looking at the BCUSA one i can do a few of the things it asks for and not others but it also shows some I had never thought of trying.
I think it'd be all too easy for it to become, "more bushcraftier than thou"
I do agree with this though, there should be no kind of certificate or tag just the warm glow in knowing that your skills are improving and you are learning something new.
John Fenna
19-09-2011, 19:37
I am doing the BCUSA basic course at the moment and finding it great fun - I am not worried about the cert at the end (though the badge will look good in my collection :) ) or being bushier than thou.
I am finding it a great way of revisiting some skills that I may have neglected for a while, learning a couple of new wrinkles and it is proving a good way of focusing on doing a bit more than "over-chilling" in the woods (read "doing nothing") - a bit like my volonteering to run a workshop at the Moot.
As a simple way for "newbies" to learn key skills to help them enjoy bushcraft without spending a fortune on courses - or even to encourage them to attend some courses if they get the bug :) - then I think they are beyond compare! Some folk like a bit of structure and the sence of completion that this kind of thing gives - I have coached lots of canoeists through the BCU star award scheme who have no intention of competeing in the olympics or becoming a canoe coach but who like the structure of the course (or at least the old courses - the new ones are awful!) and getting to complete a set of skills learning modules that can then be built on to achieve the proficiency they desire.
Strangely the cert and badge can even be presented at non related job interviews as proof of an ability to apply oneself to a learning program even if you are non academic ...fancy that :) - having fun can help you in real life as well :).
I will certainly be following the courses on BCUSA ... as well as trying out lots of other skills that folk post as Tutorials both here and there ... but then - I am one of those who enjoys structure and my certs file is replete with certs and badges for everything from computer programming to 1star canoe (flat water) - it was all fun - structured fun - but FUN!
No, I don't think it's a good idea.
I think it'd be all too easy for it to become, "more bushcraftier than thou"
I come on here to relax, to see what my friends are up to, to see something new to try, to read what others are doing at whatever season we're in.
Not to do scout type proficiency badges. Not to amass wee certificates.
Does one have to then do the little tests on every forum to carry visible proof of one's proficiency ? or do they get affixed to the avatar and carried around like the medals on a Russian general ?
What about folks who've done the courses with Backwoods, Woodsmoke, Forest Knights, Footsteps of Discovery ? Do they get to add their certificates to their running total too ?
For me, and a great many others, Bushcraft = chill the hell out asap :) I'd rather it stayed that way.
cheers,
Toddy
Exactly.:You_Rock_
I spent Sunday playing with fire in Holyrood park.....it was officially sanctioned, I was working for Historic Scotland's Ranger Service as part of Scottish Archaeology month.....in every way I could find evidence for use in the Iron Age, complete with a very wide range of tinder and kindling plants. Plants that I foraged for, or bartered with my friends for, in season, without any over exploitation of natural resources.
That's bushcraft :)
and I was joined by other members who came along to try, to show, to demo, too. That's bushcraft :D
The bcusa clearly talks of certificates of proficiency, John Fenna says he's finishing his basic and that the intermediate has been posted.....sorry, but that 'is' scout badges.
No offence to the scouts amongst us, I think you do a wonderful job, but I'm twenty five years past the time I want any involvement in scouting.
I don't have a military background, and I don't want one (again no offence intended, but military thinking does run to courses to be passed and wee patches to be worn)
I love the diversity of bushcrafting interests, the sheer range of abilities and environments, and I really wouldn't like to see that stiffled by some kind of social pressure on members to, 'Be all you can be!!!" and have the certificates (tags) to prove it. To fill some check list like Munro baggers who try to get through all of them, and do so seeing none. (The smart ones realise this and go back and do them all again, taking time to enjoy and relish each in it's own rich setting.)
Can't see how it can avoid the sleeveful of badges or the chest full of medal syndrome, tbh.
cheers,
Toddy
mrcairney
19-09-2011, 20:08
I think it's good they have the tutorials on the forum as knowledge is an amazing thing when it's accessible. It's also good that there doesn't *seem* to be the 'gung-ho' attitude evident in the 'student' postings either. In fact it's very laid back.
However, I don't feel the need for a badge either, but if someone wants to go through the lessons it couldn't hurt. I don't think we need a version here as it's already there; so if you wanna, have at it.
In real terms about as much good as NVQ 1 in cake decoration.
Well said Mary.
I think structured learning suits some people and getting badged can be part of that, but it's not for everyone.
The Army has a set method which is suited to the Army.
I teach Jujutsu and that has a progressive/structured approach, necessary for safety and learning by rote, though we don't take ourselves too seriously and humour is a large part of it too. Especially when I duff it up.
When I'm doing the cooking classes in the farm kitchen it's done in a fun but firm way because of the special needs aspect and also the burny burny, sharp things there.
I use BcUSA for all the diverse stuff on there, but like you I want to enjoy my bushcraft and country skills in a leisurely "Oh I never knew that/seen that done before" kind of way.
Bimbling bushcraft is the way for me.
Liam
I spent Sunday playing with fire in Holyrood park.....it was officially sanctioned, I was working for Historic Scotland's Ranger Service as part of Scottish Archaeology month.....in every way I could find evidence for use in the Iron Age, complete with a very wide range of tinder and kindling plants. Plants that I foraged for, or bartered with my friends for, in season, without any over exploitation of natural resources.That's bushcraft :) and I was joined by other members who came along to try, to show, to demo, too. That's bushcraft :D Careful Mary you're defining what is 'officially' undefinable....As for badges etc... BCUK is happy to give away patches, stickers, leather fobs with the BCUK logo that say hey I'm part of a clan or I belong....Having a patch that says I've completed an online course in 'bushcraft' ( what ever that is) is not overly onerous...There are a lot of things that would need ironing out and a few fish hooks for BCUK to resolve but it's not a bad idea per se...
In real terms about as much good as NVQ 1 in cake decoration.
I must have been off the day they taught that one... :D
Liam
John Fenna
19-09-2011, 20:23
I spent Sunday playing with fire in Holyrood park.....it was officially sanctioned, I was working for Historic Scotland's Ranger Service as part of Scottish Archaeology month.....in every way I could find evidence for use in the Iron Age, complete with a very wide range of tinder and kindling plants. Plants that I foraged for, or bartered with my friends for, in season, without any over exploitation of natural resources.
That's bushcraft :)
and I was joined by other members who came along to try, to show, to demo, too. That's bushcraft :D
The bcusa clearly talks of certificates of proficiency, John Fenna says he's finishing his basic and that the intermediate has been posted.....sorry, but that 'is' scout badges.
No offence to the scouts amongst us, I think you do a wonderful job, but I'm twenty five years past the time I want any involvement in scouting.
I don't have a military background, and I don't want one (again no offence intended, but military thinking does run to courses to be passed and wee patches to be worn)
I love the diversity of bushcrafting interests, the sheer range of abilities and environments, and I really wouldn't like to see that stiffled by some kind of social pressure on members to, 'Be all you can be!!!" and have the certificates (tags) to prove it. To fill some check list like Munro baggers who try to get through all of them, and do so seeing none. (The smart ones realise this and go back and do them all again, taking time to enjoy and relish each in it's own rich setting.)
Can't see how it can avoid the sleeveful of badges or the chest full of medal syndrome, tbh.
cheers,
Toddy
No argument at all :)
Bushcraft is a broad church and one persons fun is anothers CDO (a bit like OCD but you GOTTA have the letters in alphabetical order!)
I have fun playing on my own, with others, with structures, freeform and in large groupings like the Moot - as long as it is in the woods and I am having fun it is all good in my eyes! :)
Oh yeh - I was never a Scout - but I was a Scout Leader for 15 years so maybe that colours my thinking :D
John Fenna
19-09-2011, 20:25
In real terms about as much good as NVQ 1 in cake decoration.
Which would be great if your interests ran to cake decoration,and wanted a structured way of learning how to improve your skills!
:)
Careful Mary you're defining what is 'officially' undefinable....As for badges etc... BCUK is happy to give away patches, stickers, leather fobs with the BCUK logo that say hey I'm part of a clan or I belong....Having a patch that says I've completed an online course in 'bushcraft' ( what ever that is) is not overly onerous...There are a lot of things that would need ironing out and a few fish hooks for BCUK to resolve but it's not a bad idea per se...
Nah, I wouldn't do that; it's waaaay to wide a topic to be tied down like that.
Your own previous posts demonstrate that you do think 'certification' is not a bad thing, so I think your bias is as inherant as mine.
Sorry, I'm giggling here, an online course in bushcraft and badges for it :) It's like Blue Peter :D
When does the sticky backed plastic come out ?
Either spend time rambling, or with friends, or go and do a reputable course....but none of them award virtual medals do they ?
Each to their own, it's a very broad kirk, but tieing it down into "Need To Know before you can be, or call yourself or have others call you, a Real Bushcrafter :rolleyes: no, I don't think so :)
I know I've got a BcUK patch, somewhere....not quite sure where, (I get more use out of the wee torch), I do know where the carved leather one that says Toddy that Eric made for me is though :D
cheers,
M
Nah, I wouldn't do that; it's waaaay to wide a topic to be tied down like that.Your own previous posts demonstrate that you do think 'certification' is not a bad thing, so I think your bias is as inherant as mine.Agreed I am biased when it comes to having well structured and well assessed and moderated certification when you want to operate commercially.However an online course be it on BCUSA or BCUK aimed at Joe blogs who wants to learn against a set syllabus for his own benefit and knowledge is a long way from that TBH...I don't think I'd liken it to Blue Peter either....Fundamentally if it was there say in it's own sub forum folk would either take part or not and it likely would not impinge that much on the other activity on the site... If it was structured correctly and folks were happy with the concept it could become a revenue stream for BCUK to assist with the ongoing operating costs...
The minute you say, "in it's own sub forum", you're starting a clique.
A clique with the sub voce but still implicit belief that the members of the aforementioned clique are 'doing it properly' :rolleyes: therefore the rest aren't.
Since that is patently false, the premise fails.
As for it raising revenue ?? How ??
Full members and Makers pay fees that help support the site, are you suggesting that folks pay to sit on line qualifications issued by bcuk ?? Who would administer such a thing ? who would verify such a thing ? would it be worth the paper it'd be written on ? because no school in the land would accept such a 'qualification'.
The schools don't accept certificates from any other school as acceptable admission to higher level courses; any from this kind of set up would be even less highly regarded.
Besides, it's back to proscribing what is bushcraft, and since that differs from one end of the country to the other, from one season to every other, it'd be effectively hobbling it.
As for your commercial certification; I know a lot of folks who run schools, and do so with both incredible skill and ability, and damned few have certificates :) but that's part of the real health of the craft; it's sheer diversity.
I don't want to see it reduced and limited, constrained, to provide a 'curriculum'.
And as for a correct curriculum for us, or even for beginners :rolleyes: buy a good book, get to a meet up, go for a walk with your eyes open, and just keep learning :D
cheers,
Toddy
Perhaps sub forum is the wrong way of defining it...
But if you post say on the kit chatter section or on the edged tools sections regularly I that a clique??
Is having a full members only area a clique? Are we as full members a clique or just folks who enjoy the site and want to support it?
I don't know...
There might be several ways of making some revenue from an online course..
For example, at one end of the spectrum you could write the course, administer it, issue certification and charge for it.. At the other end of the spectrum you could produce and charge for one of those 'blue peter' badges folk might like to buy.
I'm sure there are lots of folk out there running commercial BC courses who are exceptionally skilled and competent in doing what they do. Likewise there may be folk out there running commercial BC courses who are not competent and have poor skills. The issue is how can you tell who is who??
Certification for commercial provision in the UK may or may not be required in the future.. Currently it's not. Anyhow I think we both agree following an on line syllabus for simple enjoyment and personal skills development is a long way from that and is really what were discussing...
Personally I don't see what harm it can do?
Back to the holier than thou bit. If there were no certification, no racking up the grades, no steps to 'bushcraft credentials', would we be having this discussion ?
Somehow I don't think the topic would have come up in this fashion.
Is full members a clique ? No, you pay your subs and you're in; we don't vet people for it, and while they are thanked, and appreciated :D for supporting the site, and allowed to sell on Members and Full Members Classifieds, etc., they aren't perceived as being better 'bushcrafters' than anyone else.
Define bushcraft ? Who among the online has that right ? It's too wide in it's scope, it's very laisse faire attitude is what genuinely appeals to most who participate :)
I certainly don't want it contained, constrained and certificated like a kid 'graduating' from nursery school.
Good bushcraft teachers gain reputation, and in doing so, high regard.
Heck of a lot of wannabe's with youtube experience out there though.
If something like this takes off then it'll end up needing a 'certificate' before we can pick brambles :rolleyes:
cheers,
M
Mary
I thought your point was if an online Bushcraft class sub forum thingy was set up it would become a clique... Yet in theory folk could come and go from it and take part if they wanted no one is forcing anyone to take part no clique has developed it's just currently a supposition that a clique might develop and things go Nuclear isn't it?
I agree 'bushcraft' is an expansive topic and difficult to define.. But there are what you might call 'core skills' that we like to discuss and post on, fire making might be one for example, shelter building might be another one it might be reasonable that these core skills could for the basis of any syllabus...When you think about it apart from the difference in delivery online module v attending a course. Would the syllabus fundamentally be any different for a basic bush course..????
Well I got a Blue Peter badge AND a Cracker Jack pencil so there:p
Well I got a Blue Peter badge AND a Cracker Jack pencil so there:p
You'd be from the Valerie Singleton era Wouldn't you Richard??
You'd be from the Valerie Singleton era Wouldn't you Richard??
Indeed I was, the sight of her gripping a squeezy bottle was enough to get my hormones flowing :)...Get down shep.
Hoho....And here's one I made earlier...
Indoorsout
20-09-2011, 05:24
So... what's wrong with those who want to do the course doing it on BCUSA? Is it really necessary to do another one here, or is that just a case of "they have one so we should too"?
I agree with Mary, it'll just create a hierarchy whether you want it to or not. You'll end up with people lording it because they've completed x, y & z. It's meaningless. Bushcraft is essentially Live Action Role Play anyway ....minus the dungeons and dragons, but what use are badges? Does the Australian aborigine need to have so many before he can make a fire or hunt 'guanas? Does the Inuit need to achieve a seal hunting badge or an igloo building badge? Is that what it really boils down to, badges?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx6TBrfCW54
If bushcraft is really just LARP'ing, status hunting and badge collection, then crack on, but you have to know you could also end up looking a bit of a nob with all your comedy badges. It reminds me of a porter I used to know who would join every organisation he could to collect the badge. He'd walk around with his tunic covered in em. If you asked him about em, he'd puff his chest out and proudly tell you what each one was for. He was a nice fella and harmless enough, but he did make himself look like a bit of a clown. Any badge you collect on an internet forum is completely worthless. Just be carefull how much chest-puffing you do off the back of 'em, or you'll fall foul of "Bill-the-porter-syndrome". ;)
Why would any one think there would be any thought of it being a qualification of any kind? yes there would be a structure to it, what's wrong with having a set of skills to learn and practise, we could change the name to camp class(no feather boas though! unless that's your thing then cool) can you explain why it would be a clique? if there isn't a badge, if there isn't a qual, if there's no need or pressure to take part, we have sub forums already why would one specifically for learning al of a sudden create a clique?:)
Can we please leave any talk of badges and qualifications out, it isn't really relevant to this kind of thing, and as for the worry of forming cliques what about the groups (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/group.php) small sections, focus on a subject, some you have to ask to join, do the people who chat in them treat any one else as lesser on here?:)
:)
Southey:)
John Fenna
20-09-2011, 08:22
I agree with Mary, it'll just create a hierarchy whether you want it to or not. You'll end up with people lording it because they've completed x, y & z. It's meaningless. Bushcraft is essentially Live Action Role Play anyway ....minus the dungeons and dragons, but what use are badges? Does the Australian aborigine need to have so many before he can make a fire or hunt 'guanas? Does the Inuit need to achieve a seal hunting badge or an igloo building badge? Is that what it really boils down to, badges?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gx6TBrfCW54
If bushcraft is really just LARP'ing, status hunting and badge collection, then crack on, but you have to know you could also end up looking a bit of a nob with all your comedy badges. It reminds me of a porter I used to know who would join every organisation he could to collect the badge. He'd walk around with his tunic covered in em. If you asked him about em, he'd puff his chest out and proudly tell you what each one was for. He was a nice fella and harmless enough, but he did make himself look like a bit of a clown. Any badge you collect on an internet forum is completely worthless. Just be carefull how much chest-puffing you do off the back of 'em, or you'll fall foul of "Bill-the-porter-syndrome". ;)
I will never look at someone wearing a Woodlore badge in the same light ever again!
Wow!
All badge wearers are chest-puffin nob clowns?
Who-ed a thought it!
Puts Baden Powel in his place for sure!
Puts Baden Powel in his place for sure!That's Baden Powel owner of the Porthmadog badge company.. Rather than Baden Powell founder of the international Scouting movement??
John Fenna
20-09-2011, 09:04
That's Baden Powel owner of the Porthmadog badge company.. Rather than Baden Powell founder of the international Scouting movement??
Aye thats the chap!
My typrwixter cint spall!
You know the only folks who benefit when a hobby or skill set is listed/ certificated and regulated ?
The ones who administer the certification.
There is no need for any sub forums to pactice firelighting, shelterbuilding, navigation or campfire cooking, just add a thread in the relevant forum.
Or is that not 'special' enough ?
In an over paper qualificationed world bushcraft is a refreshing breath of fresh air, without overweaning 'better thans'.
A friend gave an very pertinant analogy on another forum; he said that now there are deerstalking certificates, and that almost without exception the enthusiasts are recreational stalkers with very little practical experience. They are now in the situation where stalkers of over forty years experience are being 'assessed' by paper-qualified individuals of very limited experience.
Ah but, there's money to be made from administering courses when your reputation isn't good enough to make a living from students or the job.
No, I don't want to see this set up become the norm, and comparing a woodlore course, with it's hands on personal experience, to an on line tick box is hardly a resonable comparison......or would you let someone pass your BCU courses sitting in a boat in their bathtub and taking short videos of their strokes, John ?
Off to spend the day spinning and dyeing in public......and the old ladies who taught me would be birling in their graves at the thought that this skillset might become 'certificated' too.
But some eejit will try it sooner or later :sigh:
cheers,
M
Any in put from the other Mods,Members, Admins?
John Fenna
20-09-2011, 09:26
You know the only folks who benefit when a hobby or skill set is listed/ certificated and regulated ?
The ones who administer the certification.
There is no need for any sub forums to pactice firelighting, shelterbuilding, navigation or campfire cooking, just add a thread in the relevant forum.
Or is that not 'special' enough ?
In an over paper qualificationed world bushcraft is a refreshing breath of fresh air, without overweaning 'better thans'.
A friend gave an very pertinant analogy on another forum; he said that now there are deerstalking certificates, and that almost without exception the enthusiasts are recreational stalkers with very little practical experience. They are now in the situation where stalkers of over forty years experience are being 'assessed' by paper-qualified individuals of very limited experience.
Ah but, there's money to be made from administering courses when your reputation isn't good enough to make a living from students or the job.
No, I don't want to see this set up become the norm, and comparing a woodlore course, with it's hands on personal experience, to an on line tick box is hardly a resonable comparison......or would you let someone pass your BCU courses sitting in a boat in their bathtub and taking short videos of their strokes, John ?
Off to spend the day spinning and dyeing in public......and the old ladies who taught me would be birling in their graves at the thought that this skillset might become 'certificated' too.
But some eejit will try it sooner or later :sigh:
cheers,
M
I quite see where you are coming from Mary...
Personally I am treating the classes as a bit of fun - but can see that some would get over serious about the quals aspect.
As to tarring all "distance learning" as hopeless box ticking - well the Open University has a good rep as do several other distance learning set ups...
At Mencap our "fire awareness" training - designed to help us save lives, our "food Handling" cert and several other professionally recognised certs are all done as distance learning either on paper or on line.
Off to have fun in the woods today myself :)
Any in put from the other Mods,Members, Admins?
Sorry that sounded wrong, and not how I meant it at all
Any more input from the Mod, Members, Admins?:)
I will never look at someone wearing a Woodlore badge in the same light ever again!I'll be looking in the same light I always have done. It's not the achievement, it's the need to establish status.
Wow!
All badge wearers are chest-puffin nob clowns?Depends on the badge John. If it's the VC, then no, obviously. If it's a bushcraft badge earned off an internet forum, then yes, they probably are. Sorry.
Who-ed a thought it!
Puts Baden Powel in his place for sure!Well, if the badge fits. :D
Sorry that sounded wrong, and not how I meant it at all
Any more input from the Mod, Members, Admins?:)
That's better :nana:
We're looking into it from different angles, weighing pro's and con's, it's place on BCUK, whether or not if it's something that adds to the site, etc.
Personally I can see it having a place on BCUK, though in an altered version. Though decision making is up to the Boss, all I do is advice him - as I've already done.
Bushcrafter, patience you must have ;)
Hahahaha, I seem to have varying levels of tact skill depending on coffee levels, sorry chaps!:)
bushwacker bob
20-09-2011, 21:49
I thought bushcraft was largely subjective. I find the thought of going to the woods with a stove or hobo stove, abhorent and not really bushcrafty, although for many its the only way to go. If you have a permission, you can have a fire and the fun is how you choose to light it. lighter,matches, ferro rod, flint and steel, bowdrill, hand drill, plough or piston.
If I had a badge telling me I was a bushcraft fire starter, the temptation would be to think I had mastered the fire and would not be so bothered about learning new methods, perfecting the skills I already possess or even continuing to think outside the box to try to improve on things that haven't been improved for millenia.
I was awarded a badge on two occasions for teaching scouts bushcraft skills. I think it means I am already a better skilled bushcrafter than those who dont have the badges.
Anyone who wants to be a better bushcrafter can PM me and I'll send you the badges.:D
I have been doing the online lessons and doing my outings over on BCUSA. As for the content of the lessons, I was taught all of those items in Scouts as a child, so nothing new for me. I am not interested in the badge or certificate. I have boxes of badges from Scouting for events, training and camps. As for the certificate, I think most participating understand it as nothing more than something showing they have completed all of the lessons and outings. In my opinion, no one is trying to create a bushcrafting "qualification" course in the same vein as some of the threads I have read here about PAWGI, ML and other award schemes. It is an very informal setup over on BCUSA and nothing more than outdoor recreation. Now, if it were some university or community college offering this, then I would be worried!
As for the Bushclass lessons, it has given me wonderful reminders of my childhood, doing these skills as a young Scout. So for me very pleasant. The tree ID lesson has got me out brushing up on ID and learning far more than just what was simply required in the brief lesson. So, a personal motivational point to learn even more. As for the outings, I think they are there simply to get folks outdoors. I have seen folks post outings with family members, other folks who are out for the first time in a while and folks using meetups for their outings. Getting people out doing outdoors stuff is a good thing. I don't see the lessons in any way as trying to define "bushcraft". As Southey has stated, just some core skills being shown. If you want to study the history and traditions of natural dyes for natural textiles, make fire with a hand drill or sit under a parachute and get drunk off the local drink, if that is how you define bushcraft in your own mind, then that is fine with me. I'm just glad to see folks outdoors and having fun!
Gordy
As for the certificate, I think most participating understand it as nothing more than something showing they have completed all of the lessons and outings. Show to who? For what purpose? Surely, if they have completed them, they know they have completed them? They dont need a certificate to remind themselves, ...unless they are completely bereft of a memory - but they could just jot it down and stick it on the fridge with a magnet if early onset Alzheimer's was an issue. It's like showing your passport when you go for a pint, just to prove to yourself you are old enough to drink it.
As for the Bushclass lessons.....
I take your point and I agree, why not. But i wonder at the value of an outdoor pursuit and set of practical skills being taught via a laptop. Sounds a bit like chainsaw certification via email. I'm not sure there is much more benefit than watching some youtube videos and then getting a certificate to show to your mum, to prove you've watched the whole series and now you're a bushcraft expert. Seriously, what value do they have, aside from forum bragging rights?
I think if they were offered without the certification, so the only motive for doing them was your own personal growth, then they could be a good thing. It's the certificate I have issue with. It's too easy to google you way through stuff like this (and heaven knows aren't there enough google experts already?), which makes the certificate worthless, aside from the obvious problems of teaching a practical skill over the internet. You could teach an engineer every nut, bolt and system of an aircraft, but that doesn't mean he can fly a plane. You can't read experience.
the engineer wouldn't be flying the plain any how:p
the bushclasses are a great way of showing what and the way you do things for others to learn, i dont see it as a course, more of a central place to look for ideas and insiration.
everything on the bushclasses could be done in seperate threads but then they would get lost amonst all the other threads. Works well as a knoweldge base.
So... what's wrong with those who want to do the course doing it on BCUSA? Is it really necessary to do another one here, or is that just a case of "they have one so we should too"?
That's kind of how I look at it. I participate on BCUSA but haven't done the bushclass but it is very popular over there and lots of people are having fun with it. The guy administrating it, Terry Barney, is a very experienced instructor who has very graciously volunteered to run it. It is good in the sense that people are motivated to develop skills in areas they they may not naturally gravitate to. It is very easy to do the majority of our bushcrafting online and not get out or get our blades dull. Bushcraft is a hand's-on activity and it is good to see people doing more with it.
As for developing a hierarchy of who's who on the site I haven't gotten that vibe at all over there. I just see people happy with themselves for doing all the lessons and others happy for them for getting more involved. Recently there was a thread over there titled "confessions of a bushcrafter" in which everybody was owning up to the things they don't do well. Many of the bush classes address those skills. It's there, it's free, it's fun and it gets people involved. Even if we are two peoples separated by a common language, bushcraft is universal and I haven't seen anything on there that y'all can't do in the UK.
Show to who? For what purpose? Surely, if they have completed them, they know they have completed them? They dont need a certificate to remind themselves, ...unless they are completely bereft of a memory - but they could just jot it down and stick it on the fridge with a magnet if early onset Alzheimer's was an issue. It's like showing your passport when you go for a pint, just to prove to yourself you are old enough to drink it.
I think you are putting too much into the "certification" part of the certificate. It is nothing more than saying you finished the lessons & outings, nothing else. That and fifty cents might get you a pot to p*ss in. Nowhere, other than with a few members of that forum, will it show that you have completed the lessons. It is simply for fun and possibly forum bragging rights.
I take your point and I agree, why not. But i wonder at the value of an outdoor pursuit and set of practical skills being taught via a laptop. Sounds a bit like chainsaw certification via email. I'm not sure there is much more benefit than watching some youtube videos and then getting a certificate to show to your mum, to prove you've watched the whole series and now you're a bushcraft expert.
Friend, as I am showing gray in my hair, lots have changed since I left uni and the educators are constantly telling me that learning methods have changed and how individuals learn is evolving. With that said, here in the States, you can earn Bachelors and Masters degrees without ever stepping foot on a "real live" campus. My barber told me that his daughter dropped out of uni because she was not being challenged by her traditional university education and has completed her Master of Science in Mathematics online (it is accredited by the very same organization that accredits the "bricks and mortar" part of the very same university). I can do one better than the online chainsaw certification! I am a volunteer Hunter Ed instructor for Virginia. Due to the new "trend" in online education, in part by the educators themselves, I have had to recieve training in how to administer the final exam, to candidates that have had all of their Hunter Education training online. The Virginia General Assembly has authorized, by law, that online "distance learning" will meet the State's Hunter Education requirements. For these candidates we do an "in person" firearms handling assessment, in addition to the normal written exam.
Gordy
Aye, maybe I'm being too reactionary, but something that is essentially a simple outdoor hobby, for me requires no tests or certification. I learn what I want, practice what I want and take from it as much or as little as I want. I have enough certificates to complete IRL. But I can see the fun value in the courses and I suppose it is a motivator.
I think I'd rather see suggestions :)
Can you do this ? and have a neat 1 to 5 list of things, fair enough if it's all in one topic, but it has to be relevant to the area in which the person lives or relaxes and the season that it's done.
And whosoever sets the challenge has to do it first and post their efforts in the opening thread :D
Like the, 'without any tools with you can you make a firebow, cordage, spindle, hearth and tinder set up?'
or without using anything but natural materials can you get yourself a safe drink from ground water?
to tie a hobby, a relaxation like bushcraft into some kind of structured syllabus though...no, totally agin the ethos, imo.
cheers,
Toddy
Aye, maybe I'm being too reactionary, but something that is essentially a simple outdoor hobby, for me requires no tests or certification. I learn what I want, practice what I want and take from it as much or as little as I want. I have enough certificates to complete IRL. But I can see the fun value in the courses and I suppose it is a motivator.
Your last sentence is all I see in it, Not any way of certification for a qual, no need for badges, not defining Bushcraft, just fun:)
santaman2000
21-09-2011, 14:07
...to tie a hobby, a relaxation like bushcraft into some kind of structured syllabus though...no, totally agin the ethos, imo.
cheers,
Toddy
That's the real beauty of the system. There is no real structure; it's all self paced as I understand it.
santaman2000
21-09-2011, 14:11
...a bit like chainsaw certification via email...
LOL. A chainsaw certificate? Martyn I was a logger in my mid teens and some of my family still log. No one would ever believe that such a thing as a chainsaw certificate actually exists.
LOL. A chainsaw certificate? Martyn I was a logger in my mid teens and some of my family still log. No one would ever believe that such a thing as a chainsaw certificate actually exists.
That's the irony. You have to have one if your job requires you to work with a chainsaw. Health & Safety, insurance and all that. A lot of proper dealers wont sell you a Husky or Stihl without a cert either, though you can buy em from ebay or the cheap Chinese ones from the local garden centre. It's daft really.
woodspirits
21-09-2011, 22:39
Well I got a Blue Peter badge AND a Cracker Jack pencil so there
Last edited by rik_uk3; Yesterday at 02:34. Reason: AND I was in the Tinger and Tucker Club
ahh noel gordon, fine woman:D
woodspirits
21-09-2011, 23:24
Bimbling bushcraft is the way for me.
Liam
same as that :)
santaman2000
21-09-2011, 23:37
That's the irony. You have to have one if your job requires you to work with a chainsaw. Health & Safety, insurance and all that. A lot of proper dealers wont sell you a Husky or Stihl without a cert either, though you can buy em from ebay or the cheap Chinese ones from the local garden centre. It's daft really.
Loggers here would never agree to it. Nor most country people for that matter (I don't know anyone living in the country that doesn't own one or more chainsaws)
Loggers here would never agree to it. Nor most country people for that matter (I don't know anyone living in the country that doesn't own one or more chainsaws)
There is no law that requires it, you can own as many as you like certificate or not, it's just that our H&S paranoid industry is certification mad and you wont get Forestry Commission work that requires you to use one without it.
Seems like you fellas are heading down the same road....
http://www.hikealabama.org/content/usfs-announces-chainsaw-certification-course
In order for you to use a chainsaw on federal property you must be certified
...it's a slippery slope mate. ;)
santaman2000
22-09-2011, 02:23
There is no law that requires it, you can own as many as you like certificate or not, it's just that our H&S paranoid industry is certification mad and you wont get Forestry Commission work that requires you to use one without it.
None of the loggers I know work for the Forest Service. In fact I don't even know OF any who do. Loggers are independent contractors here. Having said that, no logger I know of would hire a sawyer unless he's been handling a chainsaw since he was a teenager.
santaman2000
22-09-2011, 02:24
Seems like you fellas are heading down the same road....
http://www.hikealabama.org/content/usfs-announces-chainsaw-certification-course
...it's a slippery slope mate. ;)
The USFS doesn't have that authority. It may make it a requirement for all Forest Service land but that's a miniscule amount of federal property. And Forest Service land + all other fedreal land is a miniscule amount of the amount of the timberland. Most is private property; either large tracts owned by the timber companies or small farmland with a timber crop. I own 73 acres combined grazing and timber land myself (about half in each type with two ponds)
But you're right; it is a slippery slope. That is if anyone pays attention to the reg. (that's highly unlikely)
Well I got a Blue Peter badge AND a Cracker Jack pencil so there
Last edited by rik_uk3; Yesterday at 02:34. Reason: AND I was in the Tinger and Tucker Club
ahh noel gordon, fine woman:D
NOEL GORDON!!!!!!!!!!! go and wash your mouth out with soap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Morton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5XcsMDhmXE
NOEL GORDON!!!!!!!!!!! go and wash your mouth out with soaphttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Mortonhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5XcsMDhmXEWoomerang boomerang....
Just had a look at this all over at BCUSA, it does look fun. I can see the argument about elitism (seems that is very common in the UK, unfortunately) too. But the structured learning system would be of great benefit to many. Really not sure of the badges though, I mean the whole three tiered thing is so very Hells Angels! Also I really wouldn't wanna walk around with the word 'BASIC' on my jacket!
The USFS doesn't have that authority. It may make it a requirement for all Forest Service land but that's a miniscule amount of federal property. And Forest Service land + all other fedreal land is a miniscule amount of the amount of the timberland. Most is private property; either large tracts owned by the timber companies or small farmland with a timber crop. I own 73 acres combined grazing and timber land myself (about half in each type with two ponds)
But you're right; it is a slippery slope. That is if anyone pays attention to the reg. (that's highly unlikely)
It was much easier to regulate here. I bet we have less than 1% of the woodland you have and most of it is FC land.
Looks like a fun activity for folks that want to learn with or without the badge or certificate.
Makes no difference if its on here as its on there, so folks can come on here to chill or there to do :)
The USFS doesn't have that authority. It may make it a requirement for all Forest Service land but that's a miniscule amount of federal property. And Forest Service land + all other fedreal land is a miniscule amount of the amount of the timberland. Most is private property; either large tracts owned by the timber companies or small farmland with a timber crop.
+1!
Gordy
None of the loggers I know work for the Forest Service. In fact I don't even know OF any who do. Loggers are independent contractors here. Having said that, no logger I know of would hire a sawyer unless he's been handling a chainsaw since he was a teenager.
+1 on this, too!
I would also add, that for "Jonny Homeowner", get some chainsaw safety training (not certification) and leave the tougher jobs for the professionals. Search the chainsaw threads on this forum for those discussions.
Gordy
Just wondering if anything has moved in any way:)