What vehicle for bushcraft? [Archive] - BushcraftUK: Community Forum

match

29-08-2005, 16:18

Tack

29-08-2005, 16:39

Match,
The obvious answer to your needs is a Land Rover, either the utilitarian 90 or 110 or a Discovery. They are plentiful and you should get a good one for your budget. I, however have reservations. Although the Land Rover products are relatively easy to maintain and the spares are quite cheap they do break down too frequently compared to the competition from Japan.
Japanese 4x4's in comparison are often cheaper and although they can not be considered as capable off-road "out of the box" with a few simple modofications they can be made every bit as good as the products from Solihull.
Worth consideration in no particular order are: Isuzu Trooper, Toyota Land Cruiser, Toyota 4-Runner and Surf and the Mitsubishi Shogun.
Hope this helps,
Tack

match

29-08-2005, 16:48

Thanks for your prompt answer!

My one worry with 4x4's is the fuel costs - I've not really got any idea whether its true, but I'm led to believe that you can't really expect more than 15-20 mpg out of them (especially older Landrovers).

Considering most of the driving will be getting in and out of the city, when most vehicles are least efficient, this might all add up (both economically and environmentally!)

So can anyone give me a better idea of the mpg's of various 4x4's? (real life estimates, not the optimistic manufacturers ones :rolleyes: )

bothyman

29-08-2005, 17:11

How many people actually use a 4x4 as an offroad vehicle and I don't mean just forestry Tracks??

I have a Citroen 2cv which I have taken where 4x4's fear to tread but maybe thats because they are frightened of scratching them.

How many People run round in a 4x4 because its the in thing to be seen in. .
Sort of I'm a Bushcrafter therefore I drive a 4x4 sort of thing.

We have loads of nice shiny ones up here, I have a friend who panicked recently because the bracken and brambles which overhang the track down to our house rubbed on his shiny Isuzu, then I have a mate who uses his in 4x4 trials and his looks like it has been in the wars.
I know which one I prefer and its not the shiny one>

sparks

29-08-2005, 17:40

How many people actually use a 4x4 as an offroad vehicle and I don't mean just forestry Tracks??>

me
i drive a j reg. land rover discovery and take it everywhere (that i am aloud to go)
the disco serves all my needs and is my only car.
i get between 25 and 30 mpg this is not to good but i need a large vehicle for work and i cannot afford to run a van and a car.
you can get them quite cheep this one cost me just over £2000

innocent bystander

29-08-2005, 17:49

One thing i haven't seen mentioned, is if you are of the larger shape it is actually easier to get in to a landy because the seat is at a sensible height. You don't have to do contortions to get in the car if someone parks too close in a car park...at least that's what i found... :rolleyes:

Jjv110

29-08-2005, 18:05

I think if you consider an ex Army, Land Rover 90, your needs will be met. I say ex Army because they are cheap and very basic. Either hard top or soft top is available, or both so you can alternate depending on season. The engine will be 2.5 diesel, non turbo. These engines don't allow great speeds, but are economical (30mpg depending on driving methods), and reliable. Parts are easily obtainable and they are easy enough to service yourself. You may have to get hold of a manual and learn the basics of maintenance. This way, you'll learn to recognise any problems and know how to rectify them. They are very capable off road(snow) and are capable of carrying or towing huge amounts.
The body is made of aluminium and so won't rust. This can't be said for the steel parts such as chassis or bulkhead, rear cross member. So, a good clean up and coat of the excellent Waxoyl will help to prevent any rust from setting in.
They aren't known as the most comfortable of vehicles, but I have never found any discomfort. What I like is the way you can bolt things into the back, such as tool boxes, shovels,boxes for camping equipment, and various other things so everything is all neat and tidy.
Other vehicles would be more comfortable, would have a better stereo, heater, windscreen wipers,be faster and quieter, but may be more expensive and more difficult to maintain. For about £3500, you'll get a good 90 or 110.
If I didn't have a Land Rover, I'd get, er,hmm........................ ......
Julian.

george

29-08-2005, 19:43

Match

I recently bought a citroen Berlingo and I love it.

I had very similar requirements to you - besides the fact that I needed loads of ground clearance cos I live way up a deeply rutted track.

I have an Isuzu trooper as well but it eats fuel and costs a lot to keep on the road so it only comes out if I'm towing or in bad winter weather.

The Berlingo will easily carry 5 adults plus a load of kit. It's rear door opens all the way up and has a great load space with lots of tie down D rings. The seats are at a comfortable height and it gives a similar drivers view to that of a 4x4. Loads of glass and great visibility. It's only got an inch or two less ground clearance than the Trooper.

A 3 year old with average miles will cost way less than £5000 and it's cheap to run. The 1.9 litre diesel engine is pretty good and it handles the long runs in to town from here no problem. You'll see loads of them up here (NW Highlands) as more people find out how good they are on the sort of roads we've got up here.

George

martin

29-08-2005, 19:55

Is this battered enough

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/landymartin/DSC00082.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/landymartin/DSC00083.jpg

The spare is on the off side front as I got another puncture off-roading.
I take her off-road just about everyday on my adventures around the isle. She gets scrapped by branches the stearing guard and diffs get grounded but nothing has stopped her yet.
"She may be old and slow but she's in front of you and will go where you daren't follow" is the legend I want on a spare wheel cover.
I would say get a Landie as they are the most fun you can have with your trousers on. You can do tons of stuff with them that you can't with an ordinary car.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/landymartin/Oldpictures183.jpg

And I bet you can't do this with a 2CV :D

george

29-08-2005, 20:25

And I bet you can't do this with a 2CV http://bushcraftuk.com/community/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

have a look here Martin http://www.offroadcz.com/am3/asp/clanek.asp?id=9gjo67OXyyoP or here http://www.stoessel.de/2cv/de/wm/wm99off_road.html

to see a proper offroad vehicle. ;)

George

martin

29-08-2005, 20:38

I ment the tent :D
I saw a TV programme a few years ago about 2CV's and they were awesome off-road and the presenter reckoned they had the best suspension system ever.

falcon

29-08-2005, 20:53

Keep your trousers on, Martin - there's too many nettles about !

martin

29-08-2005, 20:58

Keep your trousers on, Martin - there's too many nettles about !
:D :D :D :D :D

havingagiraffe

29-08-2005, 21:58

Match

I recently bought a citroen Berlingo and I love it.

The Berlingo will easily carry 5 adults plus a load of kit. It's rear door opens all the way up and has a great load space with lots of tie down D rings. The seats are at a comfortable height and it gives a similar drivers view to that of a 4x4. Loads of glass and great visibility. It's only got an inch or two less ground clearance than the Trooper.

Berlingos look funky and are a favourite with local taxi drivers. I've seen a few with four wheel drive. Just a shame they're not quite long enough to sleep in the back. :( The old Peugeot 405 turbo diesels are great too. Comfy, reliable, economical. Mine went to 191,000 miles before a failed head gasket sent it to the scrapyard. L reg onwards have air conditioning as standard. You can get a minter for under £500.

I have a Citroen 2cv which I have taken where 4x4's fear to tread but maybe thats because they are frightened of scratching them.

The 2CV's definitely worth a look. We only got the basic saloon in this country. On the continent they have long wheelbase vans and pick ups, the plastic bodied Mehari Mini Moke lookalike and the twin engined, twin gearboxed Sahara model with four wheel drive. Every time I lay a spanner on my Land Rover I spot a flaw which should have been ironed out at the design stage. Every time I look at a 2CV I think "wow, that's clever bit of engineering."

I think the photo below's a Citroen publicity shot from the mid seventies.

bothyman

29-08-2005, 22:53

Bushcraft vehicle wallpaper anyone

>> http://www.takla-makane.com/pages/dakar/dakar-fondecran.htm

flibb

29-08-2005, 23:07

Winches are best fitted in pairs. Just a note the vehicle belongs to a friend, and the event was held abroad and was an international competition.

Back to the original question, range rover classic V8 with LPG conversion. Spares are cheap, theres plenty of them around, loads of room, fits under carpark barriers, rear loadspace protectors are available and can tow most things. Dont be put of by 4x4, the arent usually mutch bigger than a largish car, fuel economy is similar to most people carriers, spares can be cheap (my complete exhuats cost £38 new from a shop) and 2nd hand prices are low.

http://www.jbs4x4club.com/jim_cro.jpg

redflex

18-09-2005, 15:05

worked for forestry commission they run a fleet of Berlingos

Driven them up many a forest track and a few trips off road never let me down

R-J

18-09-2005, 15:52

i'm between car's at the mo', but when i'm gonna be looking for an old astra van/estate i think. they seem to be the 1st choice of most outdoors people i know (afew gamekeeprs/foresters i know have them, and some of my shooting mates). they're not gonna get any of the places that a 4X4 will go, but they are cheap, easy to fix, and can carry a whole loads of kit.

match, if your wanting something to get you from a-b with your kit, then want to go over the roughstuff on you own 2 feet (or bike or what ever) prety much any family hatch/estate will do. i think they put a tick in all your boxes. they, however, arent that bushy to look at but hey, if it works it works.

CLEM

18-09-2005, 17:58

One day i WILL own a LandRover 90.

innocent bystander

18-09-2005, 19:36

if i was feeling flush, i would have one of these (i was sat in the back when the photo was taken at Billing - it all depends on who you know !!) :cool: :

innocent bystander

18-09-2005, 19:41

And if your not sure what it is :

Spacemonkey

19-09-2005, 20:32

My MX5 gets me in, around and out of the city and on all my bushcraft jaunts with all my kit in it. So, all you need is any car with carrying capacity. If you want an off roader then consider an early Jeep Cherokee. It's the cheapest decent off roader with 5 doors, if that's what you want. It's a proper off orader too, that drives well onthe road being of a low roof height. It's more like a Volvo estate on stilts, but with a choice of a big lazy 4 litre six petrol or a 2.5 turbo diesel. With the cost of diesel in this rip off country, there is not much difference in fuel economy, so my advice is a 4 litre with lpg conversion. These are autos only but have better 4 wheel drive which can be left in permanent 4x4 on the road, where as the diesel cannot.

Mat

20-09-2005, 13:13

I have a Landy 90 and would also recommend it as a good 'bushcraft vehicle'. Most of it's benefits have been mentioned already so I won't go over old ground. However, one thing I find really useful that hasn't been mentioned is the fact that you can power wash the inside when it gets really filthy! I used to own a 'nomal' car and always used to find it a pain having to change my boots or trousers whenever I'd got really dirty. Now I just clamber in and hose out the cab when it gets too dirty or smelly!

One thing to note about the 90 though, is it's short boot length. Great for carry boxes but think again if you regularly carry long items. I have to take both wheels off my mountain bike, for example.

Mat

jamesdevine

20-09-2005, 13:42

I too would love to have a landy in the drive (it's big enough I have measured) but going along the lines of mats reasoning it being easier to clean, it's also easier to change out of wet gear in the back of a landy then in the back of Fiesta.

But I will be unlike to ever own one as there is no need for use to have two cars and my wife hates them. All do she is not adverse to one of the smaller SUVs so next year we will have a at least 4WD if not a landy(maybe she might change her mind then). :D

James

leon-1

20-09-2005, 14:26

I am a fan of land rovers (mainly through military service with them), but I have seen people take all kinds of car all over the place including things like the Kia Pride, the Fiat Cinquecento and they were performing as well as some of the 4x4's that were there.

A lot of the time it is the skill of the driver and not the general ability of the vehicle that makes it good in off road situations.

I have seen a Land rover drive up and along areas that they are not supposed to be able to do (once in a challenge against a ferret scout car and it won) and when driven by someone who knows how to handle one properly they are an awesome vehicle, however if it is driven by someone who has not got the experience/skill it may as well be any other vehicle.

If you get a 4x4 try and get onto a course and become a member of a club, you will learn lots that can even be applied in a normal vehicle that will keep you motoring when most others can go no longer.

ilovemybed

20-09-2005, 15:40

Sickboy

20-09-2005, 18:25

As i don't drive in London town unless you pay me i've got a series 2 lwb for the fun stuff, yes it breaks down on occasion but atleast i can fix it myself instead of dragging it down the garage. BUT the better halfs taking her test in a couple of weeks so i think it'll be going as theres no way shes got the strength to move the steering wheel, it'll be replaced by a Subaru justy if i can find one, seen a few on ebay, old ones go for £500-£800 and newer rounded models at about £1500, very reliable and 4wd, cheap to insure and run, i can see no reason not too!
Why spend £5000 on something thats not used that much? :confused:

ilovemybed

21-09-2005, 10:55

Sickboy

21-09-2005, 16:57

ilovemybed

21-09-2005, 17:59

Always wondered what car that was, mind i havnt seen the film for over 10yrs, i was led to believe that the new ones used the same running gear with a different engine due to emission laws. Problem being as much as i like the old shape the better half would flip as they do look their age :o

The running gear is pretty much the same as far as I know, but the body is more robust - newer regulations on environmentally friendly paint, and they're always working out ways to make panels thinner.... The later ones suffer from some ropey styling. The early ones didn't have styling so it can't be classed as a weakness :rolleyes:

Anyway, retro is cool and you won't worry if you bash the panels - they're all flat so they're easy to beat out :D. Get the five door. Then if you bash the rear quarter you might just have to replace the door skin. Plus, you'll not be banging your head every time you want to get someone/thing on/off the back seat

What do you all reckon? which is coolest? Top, middle or bottom?

http://www.auto.vl.ru/catalog_photos/subaru/justy/subaru_justy_2561.jpg

http://auto.consumerguide.com/images/autoreview/400x266/1990-94-Subaru-Justy-90810051990001.JPG

http://www.hakonet.de/images/justy.gif

havingagiraffe

22-09-2005, 21:41

I reckon you'd do well with an old Subaru Justy for about £500. Does 40mpg on it's 1.2l 3 cylinder,

It falls into a similar category to the 2cv or the Fiat Panda 4x4 in terms of small, simple and indestructible. It's japanese so it works, it shares parts with Suzuki so it's cheap/easy to get parts. It has selectable locked diff 4x4. It even has a better turning circle than a london cab. I took mine up a rocky, muddy farm track that even a quad was struggling up. Tyres might need to be different for proper mud though...

Pretty small boot though.

One of the lads I used to work with had a Subaru Sumo four wheel drive van. Absolutely tiny - about the size of a Bedford Rascal. He delighted in in telling tall tales of travelling to inaccessable places while fishing/poaching/generally getting up to illegal countryside mischief.....It was only about four feet wide and could fit down footpaths/cycle trails. Light enough to be manhandled easily if it got stuck. Downside was the price of parts - they always had to be bought new from a main dealer due to the van's rarity. And it's pretty embarassing to be seen in a van resembling Sooty's camper. :)

havingagiraffe

22-09-2005, 22:04

I have a Landy 90 and would also recommend it as a good 'bushcraft vehicle'.

One thing to note about the 90 though, is it's short boot length. Great for carry boxes but think again if you regularly carry long items. I have to take both wheels off my mountain bike, for example.

Mat

I swapped my longwheelbase 110 pick up for a shortwheelbase 90 station wagon about six months ago. The Ninety's a lot more manouverable than the One Ten, but you end up towing a trailer full of the stuff you'd fit in the "boot" of the larger 110. This pretty much wipes out the agility advantage. :o I used to own a 109" Land Rover with a large insulated box body ( ex RAF ambulance). More room in the back than a good sized semi, but I've seen oil tankers with tighter turning circles. No power steering either. :eek:

Why did I choose a bouncy Defender over a nice comfy Hi Lux or L200? IMO Defenders look better with dents/scratches/bits of interior trim eaten by dogs, while Japanese vehicles look horrible once they've acquired a few battle scars. :)

BorderReiver

22-09-2005, 22:05

How about a nice BMW? :D

Celt_Ginger

24-09-2005, 18:02

Suburu forrester is the one. Its not quite a big 4x4 but it has more ground clearence than a normal car and has 4 wheel drive. It has a good size boot and being japanese made, it's pretty reliable. fuel economy is good as well.

fudz

24-09-2005, 19:19

The Landy 110 County is the ideal vehicle..carries your friends with all associated kit, easy to drive ( and park surprisingly!) excellent fun off road if you know where to go legally, or on off-road club courses. A 90 is just too small for good utilitarian use. ( a 2 seater in effect)

I have a 1989 2.5TD , get 32 mpg on motorway ( 60mph) and about 28 in town. Most country roads are 60 anyway! Have driven 8 hour trips to Scotland on many occasions, and the Landy was the most comfortable to drive, stress free as everyone but lorries are overtaking you, and it only takes me an hour longer than when I used cars!

I can sleep in the back and I'm 6' 2" but far prefer my hammock between 2 trees!

Shop around for one with a solid chassis without too much rust, use waxoyl, and you should pick up one for about £2500 to £3500, with parts a plenty and not expensive. A novice can service easily following a Haynes manual. A good set of rugged All Terrain tyres and you can get anywhere! Insurance for mine is under £400 fully comp, including off-roading, on about 7500 miles a year.

If you want really rugged, ex-army are well maintained, and can take a battering and still look good, but good examples can be pricey. Talk to a land rover club for advice on where to buy , buy a Land Rover Enthusiast magazine, and always get someone who knows landrovers to come along for any test drive before you part with your hard earned...it is easy to fall into the " Land Rover Love at First Sight Syndrome" !

Paxo

28-03-2006, 17:01

I own 3 landies. Consider this. My Series 3 SWB is Road Tax free, costs £140 to insure has been made more user freindly with sound proofing and parabolic suspension springs. It is a true bushcraft vehicle, simple to fix in the bush, simple to operate, cheap, tough, excellent off-road ability and goes at a speed that is relaxing to drive, it gives you plenty of time to think fo all the things to explore in the bush. I can tow the horsebox, shove all dirty tack and equipment in the back plus two filthy dogs and not care about knackering the residual value of the vehicle.
I rest my case...

Patriot

03-04-2006, 00:08

I have a 110 both for work and home use. With four kids, a wife, and a whole lot of kit to carry we think its ideal. And yes we do bring all the kids along on trips.

http://www.patriotroofracks.co.uk/images/KARLOUT.JPG

Squidders

03-04-2006, 00:21

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/gallery/data/500/Jester.JPG

My horse "Jester" gives REALLY good mpg (Miles per grass) and has total right of way over any other vehicle on the road... not great for long distance but can't be beat off road.

I guess a good vehicle for bushcraft isn't always the best to live with day-to-day. :lmao:

BorderReiver

03-04-2006, 09:56

R-J

03-04-2006, 10:45

anything that carries you to the edge of wilderness so your feet can do the rest :lmao:

Ben Trout

08-04-2006, 20:50

If you're not after an off-roader how about a Skoda Felicia Fun.

Basically its a small pickup but the rear bulkhead folds out into two more seats, making it a sort of convertible. Mine has a truckman top so it can do estate car or van modes as well! Being car based the rear load bay is fairly low so it's much easier to load up than office block off-road pickups

Little 1.6 VW engine up front so it's OK for reliability and econnomy. Plus it's the yellowest production car ever built!

Change the cam belt AND tensioner on time and it'll go forever.

pierre girard

09-04-2006, 05:51

I've been driving now for many years, but never my own vehicle - living in Edinburgh means that the need for one is quite low, since everything is in walking distance, and the buses are good for farther away places.

However, every now and then I think that I should consider investing in a vehicle (second-hand, reliable, not new or flashy) that will get me, some people and/or some equipment from A->B with as little effort as possible.

My only real limiting factors are:

Cost to buy - nothing more than say 5-6 grand - its not something I'll be using regularly (once/twice a week at most I expect).

Size - nothing vast or tiny - I don't need a tank or a mini (I'm 6'4" and wanting to park most of the time in a city, and at least drive in and out of it.

Running - I need something that doesn't cost the earth to fix, isn't too picky about not being run every day, and isn't too environmentally horrible to run (yes, I know that really rules out all vehicles :) )

So - any suggestions? What do other people use? Any general or specific comments about choosing? I'm interested to see what the bushcrafter-about-countryside drives about in (you don't ALL drive 4x4's do you? :confused: )

I guess for getting into out of the way places, a 4X4 is nice, but I've lived my entire life, so far, without one - dealing with heavy snow in winter, and some pretty bad logging roads in summer. As 4X4s are so tough on gas (petrol), to say nothing of the purchase price, I've just never been able to justify buying one.

Most of my cars have been small front wheel drive cars. They get good mileage and have good traction. I usually have some kind of two wheel drive pickup truck as well. For heavy snow, I usually put about three 70 pound bags of sand in the back of the pickup - and have never had any problems.

Best car I ever owned was a 1993 Ford Escort. It would go anywhere (and did), had enough room in the back to haul what I needed, and I got 373,000 miles on it before it threw a timing belt and the water pump went out at the same time. I retired it as I figured I'd got my money's worth out of it.

PG

Cairodel

09-04-2006, 10:40

We used to have a Daewoo Matiz, which we used to pack up and take into desert locations all over the place... as sombody else said, we took it to places some 4x4 drivers wouldn't attempt... :p
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/Cairodel/DugznMatizx.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/Cairodel/MatizDesert3x.jpg

Now, however, we have a 1980 series3 109, which was basically re-built from the ground up..

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/Cairodel/109.jpg

and a 1989 Defender 110, which is getting that way... Just as soon as I get the
gearbox parts from the UK.... :o
Should be about another fortnight.

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/Cairodel/Bahariya%20Farafrah/WeeerOrf.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b395/Cairodel/Bahariya%20Farafrah/WhiteDesertCamp.jpg
I'm digressing now, but basically, we now go much further off-road, better equipped, and after half a dozen deep desert safaris, have never found ourselves in a situation where we required assistance.
This past Friday we attended the 2006 Jeep Experience here in Cairo, and during the pre-drive lecture, the instructor was talking about the Jeep systems compared to others, and I quote "You have your Toyotas, Mitsubishis etc, etc, but of course, then there is Land Rover, which we won't go into....." and when I asked if I could take the 110 around the course, was met with a definite "No you can't.!!!" :lmao: :lmao:
They won't even let us tag along on "Jeep Club" trips... probably waste too much time waiting for them to dig themselves out... :bandit:

running bare

09-04-2006, 13:43

Salix

09-04-2006, 14:14

I am lucky enough to drive a spanking new Landrover 110 for my work, nice big warn X9000i winch on the front......................... .............................t otally useless road tyres :banghead: (transport managers eh! no nothin ;) ).
I've allways had a 110 for work, and we've punished them over the years, they do take a battering. I find that (being a tallish, big bloke) that Landy's lack space, width wise, leading to Landy elbow - driving with elbow hanging from window. And, for such a big vehicle......................n ot really much stowing space, even in a 110, thank god for the roofrack! Off road, i dont think you can beat them, but on road, they aint up to much, just to damn noisy an uncomfortable. One day i was introduced to the Toyota Hilux :notworthy comfort, spacious, good handling both off and on road. If i was going to shed some cash myself, i think the Hilux would win. :)

Mark

Patriot

10-04-2006, 16:29

All the toys are nice - but out of the box with no modifications a land rover does everything it is asked to. No other vehicle has such a presence about it or such a community.

I am going to replace mine with an older series III lwb soft top, when I get a good offer.

I think once everything has its place storage is good. I have at least four kids with me on holidays. That means four bikes and the two seater cycle trailer, fisihing rods, tents, loads of water, food and a fridge. I could go on.

Anyway, I still haven't considered a trailer but a sankey would be good if additional space was required!

wizard

04-07-2006, 17:54

I am jealous! I would absolutely love to own a Defender 110! Here in the states they cost about $60,000 to buy a used, 1993 Def 110!! They have not sold them here since '93 and I beleive there were only a few hundred imported. That leaves us with Jeeps, which are too small or a variety of grocery getter utility vehicles, mostly too low and too pretty to take off the highways. Jeep is coming out with a nice 4 door Wrangler Unlimited in 2007 that may be my dream ride, since I could never afford a Defender 110. We do have Discoverys in the US, but the new model, LR2 is a glorified station wagon with no serious capability. The earlier ones are fine, but I always prefer not to have all time 4wd. We also have the Hummer H3, which is funny looking with windows that look like gun slits on a WWII half-track :)
Right now I have an Isuzu Trooper 4x4 which is an alright vehicle except for that half a Ferrari, overly complex aluminum engine. Really costly to repair it and very fragile. I also have a 2004 Cherolet Trailblazer 4x4 which is a nice highway rider, great in snow and gets decent milage on long trips. Too plush for much outdoors work! I only hope I can afford a 2007 Jeep Unlimited, that looks to be the vehicle that "fits" me :) Cheers!

wingstoo

04-07-2006, 18:33

I am jealous! I would absolutely love to own a Defender 110! Here in the states they cost about $60,000 to buy a used, 1993 Def 110!!

Yikes...Mine was a bargain then at £2100...

LS

wizard

04-07-2006, 19:11

Yes, 2100 pounds would surely be a bargain! Of course, the steering wheel is on the wrong side :)
I guess the reason the the Defenders are so expensive in the US is because there were so few imported here. There are more Def 90's here than 110's, but still bring premium prices. I would say about $30,000 for a good Defender 90, 1997 was the most recent year for them here. Maybe someday we will get more Defenders in the US, I doubt it though, there are so many utility vehicles here already and most are all plushed out for Mom to go get the groceries in. Lots of Jeeps around, still a great little vehicle, just too small for much serious camping gear. I can only hope that the new 4 door version is affordable. Not sure, I may trade my Trailblazer on a Jeep. The Trailbazer has been an excellent vehicle though, 32,000 miles and not one single problem. I even had a small car run into the back on the expressway once and my only damage was scratched paint on the reciever trailer hitch. I was amazed!
If you ever want to sell the Defender for under 2100 pounds, let me know. I think the shipping may be a deal killer though :) Cheers!

Neil1

05-07-2006, 00:06

I have used & abused a Suzuki Vitara for the last four years, robust, cheap to run and go most places (well until your feet take over - I have 4x4, tdi, go-anywhere feet, whith a spine & bergen bolt-on facility that carries the kit along too).
4x4's , for the most part inthe the UK are "big-boys-toys", few people have a real need for them, and very few actually use them to their full potential.
Something small, economic, that has the ability to get you along the loosest definition of a road is really all you need.
Years back I was working on Dartmoor thru the winter, we had a little snow, my work place was bang in the centre of the moor, my route to work took me up big hills and down perilous slopes that twisted and turned.
On Arrival at work (10 minutes late!) I pulled into a line of land rovers (the only viechles to make it in that day) well accept my little Fiat Cinquento :D
What can I say!
Neil

Martyn

05-07-2006, 00:56

OK, I'm gonna get flamed for this, I'm sure, but...
I have to say, I'm horrified at all the "get a landrover" responses.

For people who are supposed to be the custodians of the countryside with "take only photo's and leave only footprints" as an often cited catchphrase, the suggestions for landrovers are crazy. They are one of the most environmentally unfriendly vehicles on the road, not just because they chew the place up (...if you are not off-roading, why have one?), but because they consume horrendous amounts of fuel and pump buckets of CO2 into the sky. The guy asked for suggestions for a bushcraft vehicle. I think the obvious answer is not a landrover, but "catch the bus and walk the rest". I appreciate that is probably a little unrealistic, but I think it's a lot closer to a "bushcraft" solution, than a 110. Certainly given the chaps remit of...

My only real limiting factors are:

Cost to buy - nothing more than say 5-6 grand - its not something I'll be using regularly (once/twice a week at most I expect).

Size - nothing vast or tiny - I don't need a tank or a mini (I'm 6'4" and wanting to park most of the time in a city, and at least drive in and out of it.

Running - I need something that doesn't cost the earth to fix, isn't too picky about not being run every day, and isn't too environmentally horrible to run (yes, I know that really rules out all vehicles )

Shouldnt we be recommenting an economical, environmentally friendly town car - most cars can run up a dirt track, maybe something a bit ruggedized, but that stops a long way short of an old 110.

Personally, I'd love an old landy, but I have virtually no need at all for taking one off-roading (very few people genuinely do) and I simply cant justify chucking all that crap into the environment just because I fancy myself in one.

I would buy a freelander TD4 though, 34mpg and lower CO2 emissions than most family saloons. They get the environment green light, but are just about the only vehicle in the range that does and you wont get one for £5k.

I do appreciate that people take thier vehicles off-road on occasion, or live on farms, or long ways down dirt tracks in the sticks, and that's fine (if you really, really do), I have no issue with those folks. But that's not this chaps spot. He wants a town vehicle, a luggage humper and a shopping trolley, with the ability to hump his load to the edge of the woods on a weekend. Is that honestly landrover teritory?

Shouldnt bushcrafters be encouraging the protection of the environment, rather than the destruction of it? Or am I missing something?

I think "bushcraft vehicle" is an oxymoron, with the only answers being..

walk
paddle
ride

Martyn

05-07-2006, 01:32

I do love landrovers though. :D

bogflogger

05-07-2006, 06:27

Martyn you are Absolutely right, the idea of a "Bushcraft Vehicle" is a Joke!

The idea that you can be "enviromentally sensitive" whilst Bushcrafting and then jump into a Heavily Polluting, Fuel Guzzling, Overkill Vehicle, for a trip of X miles (in both directions) is an Amazing Feat of Self-delusion!

I would guess, even here on BCUK, less than 10% of the membership actually NEED a 4WD vehicle.

Apart from the ability to haul masses of Unnesscary Equipment, into places where vehicles should not be (you CAN park up and walk in!) a Landy or similar, is nothing but a Polluting, Inefficent, Poseurs toy. :cool:

British Red

05-07-2006, 07:16

An interesting debate this - although perhaps I will be a little off topic here. perhaps I can challenge the perception of Landrovers as monsters to the environment:

Some obeservations for your consideration:

1. A more severe environmental problem

British emissions of C02 from aircraft, expressed in millions of tons of carbon, shot up from 4.6 million tons in 1990 to 8.8 million tons in 2000. But based on predicted air passenger transport growth figures - from 180 million passengers per year today to 476 million passengers per year by 2030 - they are expected to rise to 17.7 million tons in 2030.

Aircraft emissions that go directly into the stratosphere have more than twice the global warming effect of emissions from cars and power stations at ground level and, based on the Government's own calculations, the effect of the 2030 emissions will be equivalent to 44.3 million tons of carbon - 45 per cent of Britain's expected emissions total at that date.

(source : The energy bulletin (http://www.energybulletin.net/6372.html) )

It is arguable therefore that a city dweller who complains about the environmental impact of a Landrover and then takes a foreign holiday travelling by air is in fact guilty of having a far higher environmental impact. Can I suggest that anyone planning to fly abroad on a bushcraft trip recognises and realises that the impact of that is hugely significant - at least as much as an occasional use Landrover

2. Carbon Neutrality
There are two ways of making your sricing carbon neutral - directly or indirectly. The direct approach is to use biodiesel. In effect burning vegetable oil in your vehicle. The CO2 released by burning this fuel was captured from the environment as the plant in question grew - no net production or release of CO2 occurs. The indirect or offsetting method means that you re-capture the CO2 released by your vehicle by (and this is the great bit) planting trees. Organisations are willing to do this on your behalf - see here:
Carbon Neutral (http://www.carbonneutral.com/shop/results.asp?cat1=Driving)

3 - Cost of Production
By cost of production, I mean the carbon cost. Do you know how much energy was expended in making your vehicle? Or how long it will last? An interesting fact about Landrovers is that over 70% of Landrovers ever built in the last 40 years are still on the road - I doubt the same is true of, say, Ford. The impacts of their short life vehicles must be included in the carbon footprint calculation

So, why do I make these points? Simply that, as in all things, environmentalism is not as simple as it might at first appear. We have a Landrover, Landcruiser and estate car. We live on a farm and use both 4WD cars offroad. However, our Landrover is carbon neutral - so our our other cars. We do not use air flights for holidays or pleasure and only for work if there is no alternative. We heat our home using carbon neutral wood sources - not polluting gas or electricity. We buy food locally, use local (well) water and on site waste water treatment.

I suggest that a person driving a 1 litre Fiesta, taking package holidays abroad and heating their home with gas is having a lot more environmental impact than us!

Just a thought

Red

bogflogger

05-07-2006, 07:51

Which is why I decided 20 years ago:

1. Never to Fly Anywhere.
2. To use Public Transport.
3. To Cycle.
4. If theres no alternative to go by Motorbike.

As far as the rest of my enviromental footprint goes, I am extremely limited in my choices, as I live in a Council Flat.

Toddy

05-07-2006, 08:16

I've been watching this thread with interest since I'll need to replace my car soon.
I have to say though, I spend my working life driving along the motorway networks to remote or historical sites and when there I have to drive me, my colleague and all our kit down dirt tracks, up and down hill paths, through castles, woodlands and parks.
I've got a renault clio that's had wider wheels fitted (bought the car from my son's friend who'd done it up :rolleyes: )
I haven't gotten stuck yet, even through a foot of snow, deep ruts and mud, the occasional burn :eek: , wet grass and forest paths.
And I still average over 40 miles to the gallon despite driving at 70mph much of the way to and from.
The bane of the roads just now are huge blindsiding gas guzzling 4WD's that lumber along driven by numpties who can't use them properly and wouldn't dare take them off road 'cos it'd scratch the paint :cussing:

If you're flinging hordes of kids (or sheep, or feedstuff, or canoes and the like) in a vehicle that you will use in an area where you may very well need to get yourself out of a ditch, then a landie or similar is a very good thing.

Elsewise the environmental impact is simply a very selfish ego statement.
For most folks a reliable, cheap to run (low environmental impact) is by far the better option.

Sorry to rant folks but since the schools stopped all of the 4WD mummymobiles are out in force, I saw two of them fighting it out for a parking space yesterday that *neither* could get into but they totally blocked the entire main street in their determination that walking 50 metres was just too plebian :tapedshut In doing so they nearly ran down an elderly couple; the silly bint who finally clambered out's excuse was that she couldn't see them since she was so high up. The elderly gentleman obligingly offered to flatten her tyres to let her see things more clearly ;) :lmao:

Cheers,
Toddy

p.s. anyone got a five door Susuki Ignis? Plasticy interior is good for me, since rain, mud and grass is usually my lot :rolleyes:

M

British Red

05-07-2006, 08:25

Bogflogger,

Excellent mate - I applaud (and rep) you. I must admit, I am unconvinced by the public transport argument (sometimes), but I think that is perhaps more due to its implementation than its aims. I have read stats for example that show that g of CO2 per passenger mile output by buses is significantly higher than that output by cars (mainly due to relatively low uptake and vehicles travelling nearly empty at many times of day).

I do believe though that the environmental argument against 4x4s is spurious. Where, for example, is the campaign against large engined sports cars? Towing caravans (Oh yeah - Top Gear ;))? Motorhomes?

Many of those campaigning against 4x4s fly abroad, don't recycle, don't offset their own carbon emissions, use air conditioning in cars, etc. etc.

Not only do they have no moral high ground in fact but they are living far less environmentally sound lives than those they criticise - physician - heal thyself

Red :)

Sorry for the thread hijack - just had to counter the argument that Landrovers are environmentally unfriendly - ignorance is the problem. My Landrover is a net remover of CO2 - so can anyone elses be with a little effort (as of course can every other car - but those who criticise 4x4 drivers have of course done their research and offset their own carbon footprint first - haven't they?)

Toddy

05-07-2006, 08:36

but those who criticise 4x4 drivers have of course done their research and offset their own carbon footprint first - haven't they?)

Well of course we have! :rolleyes: :lmao: :D

Cheers,
Toddy

BorderReiver

05-07-2006, 12:42

Sorry to rant folks but since the schools stopped all of the 4WD mummymobiles are out in force, I saw two of them fighting it out for a parking space yesterday that *neither* could get into but they totally blocked the entire main street in their determination that walking 50 metres was just too plebian :tapedshut In doing so they nearly ran down an elderly couple; the silly bint who finally clambered out's excuse was that she couldn't see them since she was so high up. The elderly gentleman obligingly offered to flatten her tyres to let her see things more clearly ;) :lmao:
Cheers,
Toddy

Nice one,glad I wasn't eating or drinking. :)

PS: I can't see the point in beating ourselves up over this.It'll all be the same in a 1000 years time.The planet will do what it has always done and adjust to whatever is happening.

One good eruption of a big volcano will make our lifetimes' pollution look a bit insignificant. :rolleyes:

Martyn

05-07-2006, 13:51

So, why do I make these points? Simply that, as in all things, environmentalism is not as simple as it might at first appear. We have a Landrover, Landcruiser and estate car. We live on a farm and use both 4WD cars offroad. However, our Landrover is carbon neutral - so our our other cars. We do not use air flights for holidays or pleasure and only for work if there is no alternative. We heat our home using carbon neutral wood sources - not polluting gas or electricity. We buy food locally, use local (well) water and on site waste water treatment.

Providing you run biodiesel, that's fine Red - and good for you, but I bet you are in the minority. I'm not suggesting we all start riding horses, or even that people stop flying, just that we stop recommending the use of countryside chewing, fuel guzzling, CO2 dumping vehicles, when there are loads of perfectly adequate alternatives with a much smaller environmental footprint.

Just because Joe Ordinary dumps X tons of CO2 into the sky from his annual holiday, shouldnt be used as an excuse to be negligent ourselves, albeit on a lesser scale.

If you never, or hardly ever take your vehicle off-road (or you do on occasion just to justify owning it to yourself), and you dont use biodiesel, then maybe you should rethink the need for it.

Martyn

05-07-2006, 13:56

Not only do they have no moral high ground in fact but they are living far less environmentally sound lives than those they criticise - physician - heal thyself

Nah, that doesnt work. They may be guilty of putting more CO2 into the evironment from family holidays than you are, because you dont take any, but that doesnt mean they loose the moral high ground. Because your position is based on a "they are worse than I am" statement, rather than a "they are fundamentally wrong" statement. What if you drive a 4x4 with regular diesel and fly once a year? I'm not campaigning against 4x4's, but I would like those who really dont have any use for them beyond a poseur vehicle (which is probably most of em), to use something else.

If I had 2 options of flying to the maldives and one of those options contributed far less CO2 than the other, then I would take the option with the lighter CO2 footprint.

That's the situation 4x4 owners are in. They have options.

pumbaa

05-07-2006, 14:04

The best Bushcraft vehicle has to be LPCs , for those of you that havent done military service , it stands for Leather Personel Carriers . Otherwise known as Boots !!!
Pumbaa

Martyn

05-07-2006, 14:09

Perhaps we should all have personal, lifetime CO2 allocations?

British Red

05-07-2006, 14:56

I'm not campaigning against 4x4's, but I would like those who really dont have any use for them beyond a poseur vehicle (which is probably most of em), to use something else.

Sorry Martyn that doesn't seem to stack up. If your problem is CO2 emissions, then surely the argument should be "ALL drivers should offset their CO2 emissions". Why particularly 4x4 drivers? Why not TVR drivers? Motorcaravan drivers? Both put out more CO2 than most 4x4s. What about a 4x4 driver who lives close to work and walks in Monday to Friday and drives his 4x4 at weekends? He pollutes less than someone who lives 30 miles from work and drives in each day in a normal car.

My driving (in a 4x4) does not in anyway contribute to net CO2. If you were to say there should be a tax equivalent to CO2 emissions sufficient to offset the pollution (not payable on biodiesel of course which is net non polluting) I'd be with you 100% - I already pay such a tax voluntarily through the carbon neutral scheme and I would hope that all people interested in the environment do too.

If I had 2 options of flying to the maldives and one of those options contributed far less CO2 than the other, then I would take the option with the lighter CO2 footprint.

That's the situation 4x4 owners are in. They have options.

I'm delighted to present an option - don't go. Have a holiday locally, or travel to the lake district or Devon or Wales by public transport. A family of 4 flying abroad on a package holiday does far more environmental damage than one 4x4 and there are plenty of less damaging options.

I do like your idea of a lifetime environment allowance - far fairer

Good debate BTW - I will continue to take the contrary position though because there must be consistency if we are really to tackle global warming. Sure 4x4s put out some CO2 but they are nowehere near as damaging as many other things - if the problem is CO2, lets tackle CO2 - which is just as damaging if caused by the massive amounts output by aircraft, supermarket lorries because people don't buy local produce etc. If someone offsets their CO2 there is no problem with a 4x4 and ALL vehicle drivers should do this if genuinely concerned for the environment

Regards - Red

EdS

05-07-2006, 14:59

Horses for course really - I have a Land Rover 90 and an Astra Estate.

The Land Rover is the smaller sized of the 2, is already 2x the age of most cars (it takes more energy to make a car than they normal use in their life), it is 80-90% recyclable (very little plastic) and it does more MPG than a new "mini" Cooper or any of the big executive saloons.

Plus I run both of a 50:50 mix of quality diesel and recycled cooking oil.

Best of bushcraft? Probably the Astra, more space, better on the road and been a straight turbo dieselit has torque so it will pull you out of most fields.

You really need to ask how often do you actually "off road" when bushying? Not ever really. But when I do off road it has to be Landy.

Martyn

05-07-2006, 15:32

Sorry Martyn that doesn't seem to stack up. If your problem is CO2 emissions, then surely the argument should be "ALL drivers should offset their CO2 emissions". Why particularly 4x4 drivers? Why not TVR drivers? Motorcaravan drivers? Both put out more CO2 than most 4x4s. What about a 4x4 driver who lives close to work and walks in Monday to Friday and drives his 4x4 at weekends? He pollutes less than someone who lives 30 miles from work and drives in each day in a normal car.

My driving (in a 4x4) does not in anyway contribute to net CO2. If you were to say there should be a tax equivalent to CO2 emissions sufficient to offset the pollution (not payable on biodiesel of course which is net non polluting) I'd be with you 100% - I already pay such a tax voluntarily through the carbon neutral scheme and I would hope that all people interested in the environment do too.

I'm delighted to present an option - don't go. Have a holiday locally, or travel to the lake district or Devon or Wales by public transport. A family of 4 flying abroad on a package holiday does far more environmental damage than one 4x4 and there are plenty of less damaging options.

I do like your idea of a lifetime environment allowance - far fairer

Good debate BTW - I will continue to take the contrary position though because there must be consistency if we are really to tackle global warming. Sure 4x4s put out some CO2 but they are nowehere near as damaging as many other things - if the problem is CO2, lets tackle CO2 - which is just as damaging if caused by the massive amounts output by aircraft, supermarket lorries because people don't buy local produce etc. If someone offsets their CO2 there is no problem with a 4x4 and ALL vehicle drivers should do this if genuinely concerned for the environment

Regards - Red

As I said Red, your argument doesnt stack up because it's based on a "my damage isnt as much as his damage" position.

Like I said, what about those people who own a 4x4 but still use aeroplanes? They are not mutually exclusive.

Perhaps you could tell them to choose between a series landrover, or flying abroad, but surely not both?

Realistically, all you can do is minimise the impact. I do travel by air because it's the only realistic way for me to reach my chosen destination. I dont drive a 4x4 because I have no need to and other options that allow me to do exactly what I want to do with lesser impact.

It's not realistic to suggest we should all live as environmental saints, people work hard and like to travel on thier time off. Flying, although it has a huge environmental impact, is the only realistic way for most people to travel abroad.

In addition, we are also talking about series landrovers. All 4x4's are not equal in terms of damage and pollution, but normally fuelld, series landrovers are, for the most part, horrendous. I did say earlier, that I would happily buy a freelander, lower CO2 than most family saloons and 34mpg. No issue with that.

But I do have issue with series landrover owners, using them as a shopping trolley and a runabout, who dont need them.

Going back to the origins of this thread, it was about a chap asking for advice in choosing a vehicle. At no point did he indicate a need for a 4x4, but he got many recommendations to buy a series landrover. Do you think that is good "bushcraft" advice?

I'm not anti 4x4, I'm anti needless use of 4x4's by poseurs. But if your 4x4 runs efficiently and on biofuel, fair enough, crack on. Not many can honestly claim that though, can they?

The reality is, that most 4x4 owners dont use biodiesel, also shop at sainsbury's and fly abroad on holidays. If this is you, what can you do to help? Give up your holidays - possible, but not likely. Start using local produce, a good idea, but you'll still probably use sainsbury's for imported goods and stuff that is otherwise hard to find locally. Start using biodiesel? Good idea, if you have the room to store it and make it. Can be tricky if you live in a flat. Stop needlessly driving a series landrover (or, indeed, a high octane sports car)? Now that's something you can do without changing any aspect of your life (unless you have a genuine need for a 4x4, which most people dont).

bogflogger

05-07-2006, 18:37

If I could interject an element of reason into this extremely interesting debate :p ...........................ALL Four wheeled vehicles are simply mobile chicanes for my Motorcycle! :D

The fundamental problem is that ANY car contains a huge amount of unnesscary steel, injection moulded plastics, vast amounts of consumer appeasing electric toys, mug holders and reclining/rotating seats..................all of which the engine has to drag around all the time, regardless of the human cargo and their luggage!

The ideal bushcraft vehicle?

A BMW GS850rs Motorbike! :D

(or a Citroen 2cv/ Fiat Panda.)

bogflogger

05-07-2006, 18:47

Here's another alternative:

http://www.oldwoodies.com/feature-africar.htm

Check out the Africar. :D

British Red

05-07-2006, 19:04

Bogflogger,

Good point - sorry for the Off Topic. My reason for responding to Martyns post (in a civilised way I hope), was to point out that IMHO the 4x4 debate is an out of context issue. You are absolutely right that all cars pollute - not just by CO2 emissions but also by the manufacture and recycling overhead - which exactly as pointed out are often higher than running emissions.

My (final) point on this is that we all make choices.

As Martyn correctly points out, the only way to practically go abroad to many destinations is to fly. Howver most of the time we don't need to go there - we choose to to satisfy a want, not a need. As a consequence of fulfilling our desires we pollute.

Some people want to drive big cars. They dont need to. They satisfy that desire and they pollute

Some people want to eat kiwi fruit. To get here fresh a kiwi fruit burns it own weight in aviation fuel :eek: . To satisfy that desire they pollute.

Some people seek to minimise their impact on their environment - they use biodiesel for example. (Actually, we don't at present - instead we use the carbon neutral scheme which involves the creation of enough woodland to absorb the CO2 emissions of the cars - actually we pay for more than we need because we like woods :) ).

I don't have a particular difficulty with complaining about unnecessary CO2 emissions (although many other vehicles pollute as much and more than 4x4s). My point is, there is no point in giving up your 4x4 and then spending the money on an airfare. If we are bothered about CO2 we must control all emissions. If we aren't that bothered about air travel, road haulage, plastics, fossil fuel power stations etc. then leave the 4x4s alone - they are one of hundreds of choices that are part of the problem (and you can offset their emissions as I say)

Good debate

Red :drive:

Spacemonkey

05-07-2006, 19:10

First of all, can we keep this thread open as it's an interesting debate, and as it is an old post, I'm sure that no one is bothered about it being hijacked- more of an evolution into a related topic.http://72.36.134.230/community/images/smilies/smile.gif

I really hate this anti 4x4 campaign that revolves around their gas guzzling stats. Ok, so townies who buy them as status symbols may be prats but it's a free country, supposedly. Nobody would be complaining too much if they ran around in big mercs etc that use far more fuel would they? Apart from Chairman Ken as it fits in well with his 5 minute hate. And why do people always victimise 4x4s with a blanket generalisation? Does this include Toddys aspirations of an Ignis? Great car, very economical, but god forbid-it's the devil incarnate as it's engine drives all 4 wheels!!:eek: As do various Audis (which nobody attacks), certain Fiat Pandas, Scooby-Doos etc etc...
Another thing. The new Range Rover Sport is an evil, borgoise, gas guzzling 4x4 if ever there was one. yet the most popular one here-the TDV6 does 28mpg average. That's more than my old 1.6 Sierra would have done and yet nobody would dream of attacking me for owning an old Sierra (which thankfully i don't..)! As technology improves, so is the mpg. Most modern 4x4s give similar economy and thus emmissions to older family cars.
And another thing, one thing that contibutes far more ot the so called greenhouse effect is... cows. Yes, their 'emmissions' of methane contribute more to world greenhouse gas emmissions than the eveil motorist. So lets all turn veggie and stop breeding cows...
And another thing. People might think that driving a big 4x4 is anti bushcraft as it harms the environment and is thus contradictory to our ethos. Well how harmful to the environment is that nice little computer you are all reading this with? However much we might love the old way of life, we are all hypocrites as we still crave some trappings of modern life, and why not? I'm sure that if Iron Age man had a choice of living in a cold wet mud hut or sitting in a London flat surfing the internet, he'd certainly choose the latter for a while! But as all reading this know, modern life is not all it's cracked up to be and we escape it whenever we can. As we are more in tune with the natural world, we all do our bit I'm sure, but there's no escaping the fact that modern life harms our natural environment one way or another. Industry and airtravel (and those pesky bovines) are the biggest polluters and there is no doubt that we ARE harming our environment at an alarming rate with our consumerism and global travel.
And finally. Global warming is not a new thing. It has happened many times in the earth's history yet we have only had evil motor vehicles for the last 100 years. You may know that this planet is in the outer spiral arm of a galaxy we call the Milky Way (quote Eric Idol...), but not every one knows that we travel through the 'disc' of star matter in a sine wave. Thus for about 12,500 years (or it could be 25,00 year cycles. My memory is a bit swiss cheesed at times.) we travel away from the star centre and then for another 12,500 years we travel back then pass through the star belt, then travel to the other side of the star belt and back again, if you get my drift (sorry, awful pun..) One theory is that as we move away from the congestion of stars we lose their energy effect (heat) and sit out in space relatively on our own, and this is when we get lovely ice ages. As we return we warm up again, and also experience more asteroid/comet strikes. Presently we are rejoining the centre line of the star arm and thus experiencing greater warming. And the double whammy for doom mongers is that we are also more exposed to asteroid strikes, and we are overdue the' big one' going by previous frequencies of major strikes. :rolleyes:

ps, I love landies and would love a 110 or Disco 300 TDI set up as an overlander to replace my VW camper (a gas guzzler of the first order! Oh, for an LPG conversion..) as a very occasional vehicle for long distance go anywhere travel. You know, Sahara and all that. Took the MX5 last time, and it got a bit dusty in there, and sleeping was a bit uncomfy. Still got Saharan dust in it though.. :cool:

Spacemonkey

05-07-2006, 19:14

mark a.

05-07-2006, 19:16

I don't begrudge bushcrafters for getting a 4x4 if it's useful for them. If they want to check out some woods that are down a rutted country lane or forest track, then by all means a Land Rover would be the way to go. I'd even be happy if they chose the Landie over, say, a Panda 4x4 because the Landie is bigger, stronger, easier to repair, doesn't mind getting muddy, has more ground clearance, etc etc etc.

What I don't like is the huge 4x4s on the shopping or school run. Most of the arguments that people point out in favour of them (fit the kids, safe etc) can be easily answered by smaller cars. A Volvo estate would fit the same number of people in the same comfort and probably in more safety in a cheaper, faster, more manoeverable, more economical car.

So yes, I agree with Martin in that most 4x4s are a waste. But don't forget that 4x4s have their uses, and people have many valid reasons for having them, so we'll let them off!

Martyn

05-07-2006, 19:19

My point is, there is no point in giving up your 4x4 and then spending the money on an airfare...

My point is, there is every point if you are going to spend your money on airfare regardless of what you drive.

It's not a mutually exclusive tradeoff. Just because we take a decision to pollute knowingly in some areas, doesnt let us off the hook in others. It's not an all or nothing situation. You may take the decision to visit a country and taking the plane may be your only option, so you make the decision to pollute. That doesnt mean all your other decisions must follow suit.

Gibbsy

05-07-2006, 19:21

Here is a link and a couple of pics of the best 4x4 money can buy i might be a bit bias though as it is mine.

http://www.toyotasurf.mysite.orange.c o.uk

All the room you need and just as good on road as it is off !!

British Red

05-07-2006, 19:28

Just because we take a decision to pollute knowingly in some areas, doesnt let us off the hook in others.

I agree. The man who chooses to fly for his holidays is no worse (and no better) than a person who drives a 4x4 through choice. Both are choices. Both pollute. A gram of CO2 is a gram of CO2. The atmosphere doesn't distinguish.

<extends hand for a shake and an "agree to disagree" position>

Doc

05-07-2006, 19:28

Thanks for stimulating my interest on this.

I looked up the CO2 emissions for a return flight to Malaga (seems fairly typical holiday destination) for a family of 4. This generates 1.5 tonnes of CO2. :eek:

A petrol 4x4 giving, say 25mpg and driven 12000 miles a year generates 5 tonnes of CO2. :eek: :eek:

So flights are certainly polluting, but for the average family, I suspect the car is worse.

As Red said, biodiesel should be carbon neutral. Availability can be a problem though.

Back to the car question; most of us probably spend to much on motoring and the depreciation on a new car (maybe 25% a year) is like tearing up fivers. I have to admit that I have a 4wd car, although in my defence I am a rural GP with a 400 square mile practice area, half of which is highland. Even so, I only use 4wd in anger for work maybe 3 or 4 days a year, plus a further 6 or 7 days to get to my coastal wildfowling area.

I used to have an old type Subaru Justy 1.3 and as ilovemybed says, they are fantastic - utterly reliable (hey, they're Japanese), good mpg, and enough ground clearance for most things but not serious off road use. I've now got a Suzuki Jimny which although lacking street cred is VERY capable off road and I get 36mpg on road from the 1.3 litre engine. If only it was diesel it would be perfect.
If you don't need 4wd and want to minimise costs I would definitely go for something Japanese and diesel.
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b160/pewing/canoetrip017.jpg

Dougster

05-07-2006, 19:28

I'm not sure all of the suggestions so far are realistic. I have a volvo estate TD 55/gallon and for work and just me a fiat cinquecento .85 (60 /gallon). Both these figures are for the open road, but just how often do we get there? I am almost always in traffic, and I live in Wiltshire.

The good thing about the fiat as far as Bushcraft is concerned is that it is so small, you can leave it in areas where farmers and landowners are not going to be affected by it. It's far less obtrusive if left on a verge or tucked into the edge of a large gateway when walking into an area. Someone actually said to me - 'That little thing won't take up much room in my yard - go on.'

But I always take my kids out in the Volvo - if you've ever been in a cinque in traffic and realise that the windows are at the same height as the bumper for a Land Cruiser or Warrior (both are my most hated vehicles) - anyone EVER seen one with mud? If I am hit hard by one of these japanese monsters with V6 3000 on the side we're dead, that's one of the reasons mummies buy them - they will probably all live through it. I live green, but the price of my kids is too deer for me to be THAT green.

My friend has a 90 - he gets fire wood in it, moves furniture for friends, gets more recycling for friends to the tip rather than out in the bin etc. He doesn't drive all that far. But when he does all the kids, their friends, the dogs etc are all tucked into it - negating the nead to take two cars as so often happens.

Another friend has a freelander - 8 years old, it's had a new head gasket, gear box and innumerable other smaller works. What happens to all the old bits? I'd love to know. He also has a dirty great roof box on the top as the boot is so small for his 3 kids. Extra fuel consumption there.

We are all going to leave an environmental footprint, I think we need to make it as small as possible, visit

http://www.carbonneutral.com/shop/index.asp i

f you can't do all that much. But change a little each day, getting there in the end is better than trying to compare yourself to someone who manages to live the 'good life'. How much difference would it be after a year if we all improved 1% per day? I try to live a cleaner greener life, but I don't think it's possible to have no effect on the earth.

Get a car that's safe, is comfortable and has enough room - an estate if you have a dog. Drive it evenly, accelerating and braking have a huge effect on your mpg. Driving like the idiots who 'soup' up their cars has the biggest effect on the environment and other people.

Any car is perfect for bushcraft if it does what you want, but just remember if you are in Bath or Wiltshire and someone in a little red fiat looks grumpy and refuses to let you out - it will be me, all high and mighty because your car has V6, warrior, landcruiser, RSI, GTI or a number bigger than 2.5 on the back. It may make you look big (in my rear view mirror), but it certainly won't make you look clever.

Dougster

05-07-2006, 19:34

Clean forgot - I drove up the M5 from the SW last w/e and there have to be about 6 or 700 warriors sitting in Avonmouth docks awaiting delivery. Can't wait to see them on the roads!!!!! How long before they build a plane to speed up the delivery of them to the end customer? :(

JonnyP

05-07-2006, 19:36

Well I think everyone should get a 4x4. I think they should stop maintaining the roads so a 4x4 would be necessary. That way everyone would be forced to drive slow, saving many lives, and what they save on the maintenance, they could put back into public transport, closed off bus lanes, trams and trains. Public footpaths could also be kept maintained and well fenced off and if you still want to drive a car, good luck to you.
I know its a silly idea, but I often think about it.............

Dougster

05-07-2006, 19:40

British Red

05-07-2006, 19:41

As Red said, biodiesel should be carbon neutral. Availability can be a problem though.

Ahh now here we have a great thought. <Pulls out soap box> :D

So, instead of paying farmers "set aside" we grow sunflowers, oilseed rape etc. Its pressed and refined as "biodiesel". Its sold through existing petrol stations. Results:

1. The money currently wasted on "set aside" goes to carbon neutral fuel
2. More money is available to support British farming
3. Reliance on other countries (many of whom have quetionable human rights etc. is reduced)
4. Net carbon emissions are reduced

All those in favour?

Red :drive:

JonnyP

05-07-2006, 19:44

Sounds like utopia to me, but that would involve a politician with guts raising taxes and spending it on public transport. Not sure we have anyone who will say they'll raise taxes any more.
How much is spent on road maintenance ??? I think there would be a saving

Dougster

05-07-2006, 19:49

How much is spent on road maintenance ??? I think there would be a saving

It would appear that by me, just enough is spent to stop the Audi TTs from grounding. Makes cycling a nightmare.....

....Hang on, seems someones ahead of you.........

Spacemonkey

05-07-2006, 20:25

Driving like the idiots who 'soup' up their cars has the biggest effect on the environment and other people.

My MX5 is tuned up nicely thanks, and it's more efficient as a side effect that actually results in better mpg now. It also means I don't have to floor it as much to access power to overtake those lovely Warrior beasties and 40mph Corsas on the A420.

http://www.mx5ocforum.co.uk/images/smiles/love4.gif

JonnyP

05-07-2006, 20:31

British Red

05-07-2006, 20:43

I looked up the CO2 emissions for a return flight to Malaga (seems fairly typical holiday destination) for a family of 4. This generates 1.5 tonnes of CO2. :eek:

A petrol 4x4 giving, say 25mpg and driven 12000 miles a year generates 5 tonnes of CO2. :eek: :eek:

Doc,

Thanks for your post - it made me do some further checks of my own. Your figures are close to what I came up with - but do of course omit that the family of 4 still drive a car! A 1.4 litre car emits 3.4 tonnes of CO2 in a year - add that to your Malaga trip and it turn up around even - which means soemone with a big gas guzzling 4x4 who holidays in the Lakes and a family with a medium hatchback who fly to Malaga.

Neither is better or worse than the other. Start throwing in a 2.0l family saloon though and a trip to the US and you are into the territory of 2 big 4x4s - interesting huh?

Red

Martyn

05-07-2006, 21:35

Doc,

Thanks for your post - it made me do some further checks of my own. Your figures are close to what I came up with - but do of course omit that the family of 4 still drive a car! A 1.4 litre car emits 3.4 tonnes of CO2 in a year - add that to your Malaga trip and it turn up around even - which means soemone with a big gas guzzling 4x4 who holidays in the Lakes and a family with a medium hatchback who fly to Malaga.

Neither is better or worse than the other. Start throwing in a 2.0l family saloon though and a trip to the US and you are into the territory of 2 big 4x4s - interesting huh?

Red

Interesting. So basically by owning your 4x4, you are tyrading off your continental holiday. Sounds fair to me.

Now just to find a way of stopping 4x4 owners from flying in planes.

But wait, what aboput the 1.4l family who dont fly abroad? They are 1.4 tonnes a year ahead of the 4x4 owners.

Lets forget about holidays for a minute.

4x4 = 5tonnes of CO2
1.4L = 3.4 tonnes of CO2

Which is the most "bushcraft"?

Oh and by tyhe way, a series II disco that does an average of 15mpg, puts 12.5 tons of CO2 out per year.

Some of the worst offenders by miles are some of the older series landrovers.

The freelander is much better with a 205g/km CO2 output (2.05 tonnes for 10,000k/year), which puts it well down into the family car bracket. Not all 4x4's are evil, but certainly the older landrovers and the big rangerovers and bigger engined disco's ...and also warriors and their ilk, are the evil ones.

Out of interests, anyone know how many acres of rapeseed we would need to grow, in order to fuel the whole country?

British Red

05-07-2006, 21:54

Interesting. So basically by owning your 4x4, you are tyrading off your continental holiday. Sounds fair to me.

.

Cool me too ;)

4x4 = 5tonnes of CO2
1.4L = 3.4 tonnes of CO2

.

4x4 = 5tonnes of CO2 but subscribes to carbon neutral so net effect = zero

1.4L = 3.4 tonnes of CO2 but does nothing so net effect = 3.4 tonnes

Now which one sounds most bushcrafty?

Martyn mate, I love the civilised debate but I suspect I'll never convince you or indeed vice versa :D

Red

bogflogger

05-07-2006, 21:57

I think the answer is actually there, but not in production:

LPG/Flash Steam Engines.

I was a Tea-Boy/ Coal Humper back in my teens on a Sentinel S8 Steam Lorry, and that thing could really shift! :D :D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinel_Waggon_Works

With a bit of modern engineering skill, Flash Steam/LPG virtually removes the combustion process from the equation! :)

Martyn

05-07-2006, 21:59

Cool me too ;)

4x4 = 5tonnes of CO2 but subscribes to carbon neutral so net effect = zero

1.4L = 3.4 tonnes of CO2 but does nothing so net effect = 3.4 tonnes

Now which one sounds most bushcrafty?

Martyn mate, I love the civilised debate but I suspect I'll never convince you or indeed vice versa :D

Red

How many people actually use biodiesel Red? You keep referring to carbon neutral, that's not a valid argument unless all 4x4 drivers subscribe to it.

About biodiesel, yeah on the face of it, it would seem good, but doesnt it's viability for a select few, depend on the fact it hasnt been uptaken en-masse? Could we really grow enough rapeseed to fuel every engine in the country?

Dougster

05-07-2006, 22:09

My MX5 is tuned up nicely thanks, and it's more efficient as a side effect that actually results in better mpg now. It also means I don't have to floor it as much to access power to overtake those lovely Warrior beasties and 40mph Corsas on the A420.

http://www.mx5ocforum.co.uk/images/smiles/love4.gif

Tuning and souping up are different methinks. Glueing on a spoiler and putting a fat exhaust are wildy different, I was alluding to the mindset. A colleague who has an MX5 does the same MPG as my Fiat! Just can't fit my 5 stone mutt in the back of his. Fast and fuel efficient are not exclusive as my Volvo proves to me.

A420 is fun though, esp with a nice car - I remember going along it trying to get to the RUH at the same time as the ambulance carrying my wife (in labour at the time).

Most of the time i just enjoy the views. ;)

JonnyP

05-07-2006, 22:11

What bugs me is why do people pick on 4x4s all the time when there are offenders, just as bad or worse, why not limo's, bentleys, jags, empty buses, horse lorries (why can't the horses walk???), rolls royces, easy jet, etc etc. I drive a landy 110 and it is full (and I mean full) of my trade tools, and it tows a 2.7 ton trailer, which follows me nearly everywhere. Just because a load of women want to protect their children, on the way to school, in the best way they can and that upsets a lot of people because it takes them an extra 5 minutes to get to work, they blame all 4x4 owners including me, and if anyone out there can tell me a better vehicle for pulling my trailer, then I would like to hear from them.
Phew, thats better out than in..............

Martyn

05-07-2006, 22:22

Dougster

05-07-2006, 22:23

I was sat in traffic in Bath, with a 4.2 A3 in front, a Range rover sport to the right and a Merc 500 to the left of the Audi, all had one passenger, all clean, all going to city centre. None had tow bars. There is a clear distinction between you.

There is even a 4 litre bentley in Bath with the plate LE55 TAX!!!

Do the Americans differentiate between SUVs and utility? I'm sure we do for Tax or am I wrong again?

pumbaa

05-07-2006, 22:48

Just as an off the wall suggestion , how about some thing like This (http://www.geocities.com/wcaindonesia/) :D
Pumbaa

Spacemonkey

05-07-2006, 23:04

How you getting on with your sportstrak Nick ?

Loved it to bits! Great for off roading, well green laning which strictly speaking is ON roading...
As it is small and has a 1.6 litre engine it is quite economical for a 4x4, but a TDV6 Rangey Sport would equal it, and I know which I'd rather have!!!

Have swapped it for a 70cc Monkey Bike (thousands of miles per gallon, or thereabouts) and some cold hard cash with a mate when I bought his dad's VW Camper. Mate has a mate with access to his own off road course set in 400 acres (and no, they won't like camping before anyone thinks the same as I did...;) ) and he favours Sporties above all other, so I still get to drive my Sporty off road, with other Sporties thrown in, and I don't have to pay to maintain it! Everyone's a winner... Oh, and the Monkey has knobblies, so that will be up on the ridgeway soon...:)

ps, I'm only up to issue number 44 if you remember what I mean!! ;)

longshot

06-07-2006, 01:28

just a thought but what about ATVs small, yes but light. fairly good carrying capacity and easy on fuel. plus if used right ie no tearing about on sensitive lands not too hard on the environment.

dean

bogflogger

06-07-2006, 01:32

Nice idea, but ATV's are not Road Legal in the UK.

longshot

06-07-2006, 01:38

Nice idea, but ATV's are not Road Legal in the UK.

their not road legal in canada either but lots of folks here use them every day to get around the small towns here in Newfoundland plus for example, i can walk 2 minutes and be able to be deep in the bush :D :D :cool:

dean

bogflogger

06-07-2006, 02:07

OH Yes Indeedy:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2257931,00.html

:D

British Red

06-07-2006, 06:29

Okay all 4x4 drivers are eco vandals except:

1. Those who live or work in the country and need off road capability
2. Those who offset the CO2 output
3. Those who use biodiesel
4. Those who drive Freelanders
5. Those who drive Range Rover Sports
6. Those who carry lots of equipment and tow trailers
7. Thosewho use the extra seating capacity to mean the g/CO2 per passenger mile is lower
8. Those who don't fly abroad and therefore reduce other equivalent emissions
9. Those who use low footprint transport in the week
10 Those who drive very old vehicles and therefore reduce the manufacturing output CO2

Yes but OTHER than them all 4x4 drivers are eco vandles

So what HAVE the Romans ever done for us? :D

Red

pumbaa

06-07-2006, 12:50

Nice idea, but ATV's are not Road Legal in the UK.

Actualy Atvs/Quads can now be bought road legal , or with the aid of an SVA test you can register them for the road . Arctic Cat (http://www.ace.ag/?gclid=COaK4oWF_YUCFUFsEQodQmy hSQ) have had some of theirs homologated for road use . I think they are te first maufacturer to do this , but i am sure others will follow .
Pumbaa

bogflogger

06-07-2006, 13:19

Problem Sorted! :D

Martyn

06-07-2006, 13:34

Okay all 4x4 drivers are eco vandals except: Your words red, no one elses. We were talking about old series landrovers, disco's, warriors, Range Rovers etc, not all 4x4's. But the following from your list are valid points..

1. Those who live or work in the country and need off road capability
2. Those who offset the CO2 output
3. Those who use biodiesel
6. Those who carry lots of equipment and tow trailers

These points...

4. Those who drive Freelanders
5. Those who drive Range Rover Sports
7. Thosewho use the extra seating capacity to mean the g/CO2 per passenger mile is lower
8. Those who don't fly abroad and therefore reduce other equivalent emissions
9. Those who use low footprint transport in the week
10 Those who drive very old vehicles and therefore reduce the manufacturing output CO2
...dont make sense.
*Freelanders and many other small and modern 4x4's have quite low CO2 emissions. There is no reason to highlight them.
*I dunno where RR spots comes from??
*Most cars have passenger seats - anyone can reduce thier production by carrying passengers.
*Many people dont fly and dont own 4x4's. How do you justify it to those people?
*If you cycle in the week, good for you, your series landy is still a polluter.
*Old vehicles? Lets see some numbers Red? I dont believe driving an Old series landy saves CO2 because it cuts down on manufacturing. It's a meaningless statement without some numbers. :)

Look, people will drive whatever they want, and so they should. I'm not anti-landrover. I love old landrovers and I would love to own one, but I just dont have an offroad need and I cant justify it ...believe me, I've tried. No matter how you try and stack the cards, old landrovers are eco-vandals no question and if you drive one without a need for off-roading, or humping and towing stuff over fields, then you are contributing a significant tonnage of CO2 to the atmosphere for no good reason. It's perfectly legal to do that, it's up to you. But I do find it shocking when someone asks for a vehicle reccomendation for a shopping trolley with no offroad requirement, that they immediately get "an old landy" as the most popular suggestion. I'm no bushcrafter, but it strikes me as being a little out of sync with the bushcraft ethic, dont you agree? :)

British Red

06-07-2006, 20:31

Lets see some numbers Red?

Righto Martyn - some numbers for you

The last full set of necessary statistics available for this exercise are 2001 but they are good enough for our purposes (if you would care to do some statistical research for yourself, please feel free)

Population of the world 6100000000
tonnes of CO2 output per person 3.9
Total world output of co2 23790000000
(source - the Kyoto treaty)

Number of Landrover Defenders sold in UK 2001 5148
(source SMMT)
Assume a 15 year working life
Number on the road 77220

g of CO2/km output 299 (Gov figures for a manual diesel 110 defender)
number of avearge miles driver 12,000
number of kilometeres 19312
annual tonnes co2 per vehicle 5.77
annual tonnes of co2 for a 1.4 hatch 3.4
Incremental tonnes of Co2 by all Defender drivers 183011.4

Effect of these drivers changing on world CO2 emissions?
As a proportion of world CO2 emission? 0.000008

Thats less than 8 parts in a thousand of one percent! That assumes that all LR drivers drive above average miles, never need the car off road, never use biodiesl etc. - shall we say half of that? less?

Did you also know that aviation fuel emissions account fo 2% of the total CO2?
thats 2 not 0.008 per cent.

If we got rid of all of those cars we will retain 99.992% of all world CO2

Way to save the environment :35:

Of course there are things we can do - reduce air flight, food miles etc.

on no hang on

I do travel by air because it's the only realistic way for me to reach my chosen destination.

It's not realistic to suggest we should all live as environmental saints, people work hard and like to travel on thier time off. Flying, although it has a huge environmental impact, is the only realistic way for most people to travel abroad.

Martyn, you could choose not to fly abroad - simple.

Yet, you choose to do something you know has, in your own words, a massive environmental impact. Instead theres this attack on a brand of car whose contribution to world CO2 is so small that it complete elimination would be statistically insignificant.

CO2 emissions can be tackled if everyone contributes, that means less elecrticity, little or no flying, using local food, no air conditioning etc. However, if a person can't be bothered to give up what they like but that they know pollutes (thousands of times more damagingly than Landrovers), I don't think they are in a position to ask others to make a contibution that they do not.

Its a masiive life change for all or a "can't be bothered personally" for everyone - changing a few thousandths of a percentage point will make no difference at this stage

So - what are you going to give up?

Red

wingstoo

06-07-2006, 21:17

Red,

Were giving up electricity at the moment...Power has gone down for maintenance work...

But I have a stack of batteries and a nice little inverter...so lights, TV and laptop still going, Gas kettle out of the shed, freezer shut and clamped,

Glad I am prepared for this, boring if I wasn't

LS

British Red

06-07-2006, 21:29

Hardly a problem in your case LS - self reliance is always a good thing - guess it may become more dificult in say 18 months or so ;)

Red

Doc

06-07-2006, 22:02

I'm reminded of the Parable of John Travolta, posted by Great Pebble about 6 months back:

Originally Posted by Great Pebble
It's just a matter of where you set your personal standard with relevance to what is "essential" and what is "wasteful".. Harken to the "Parable Of John Travolta":-

John Travolta is fond of flying. He owns an ex-Quantas Boeing 707 (early 4 engined intercontinental jetliner) and a Gulfstream 2 (twin engined business jet).
One day John decides to go and visit a movie star friend who lives a hundred or three miles down the road. He goes out to the hangar and is climbing up the steps into the 707 when he thinks "What about the planet?"...

Instead he climbs aboard the Gulfie, and flies off to see his mates.

All weekend John felt really smug about his contribution to the environment.

Martyn

06-07-2006, 22:40

So - what are you going to give up?

Red

Nice spin Red, but you totally failed to answer the question.

You claim that by running an old landrover, you reduce the CO2 pumped into the sky because of a lower vehicle turnover. I'm sorry, I dont believe it.

Prove it with numbers not speculation?

The information we need is:
How many tons of CO2 does it take to make a 1.4L?
How many Tons of CO2 does it take to make a 110?
What's the life expectancy of a 1.4L?
Whats the life expectancey of a 110?
How many tons of CO2 does a 1.4L produce for 10,000 miles/year x life expectancy?
How many tons of CO2 does a 110 produce for 10,000 miles/ year x life expectancy?

By comparing these numbers, we will be able to get real and meaningful information about the CO2 budget of a 110 compared to a 1.4L.

If we are going to do comparative analysis, we should at least try to compare apples with apples. ;)

Comparing all the landrover emmisions in the world to aeroplanes is nonesense, it's just spouting a meaningless set of numbers that dont add up to anything, except perhaps a seat on the Labour Party back bench. :D

Martyn

06-07-2006, 22:43

Martyn

06-07-2006, 22:53

I'll give you a quick example of how the equation works with made up numbers.

Lets say a landerover has twice the life expectancy (~30 years) of a 1.4l, but they both take 5 tons of CO2 to make. The lady makes 6 tons a year and the 1.4L makes 4 tons a year.

Landrover x1 = 5 tons, x (6tons x 30 years) = 185 tons.
1.4l x2 (they last half as long) = 10 tons, x (4tons x 30 years) = 130 tons.

You can play with the numbers but I very much doubt you'll end up with the landrover looking a cleaner bet. In fact if you reakon the life expectancy of a 1.4l to be a very silly 5 years (meaning you need to buy 6 of them for every one landrover), you still only get a total of 180 tons for the 1.4L in total. Still less that the one landrover.

You gotta scratch that one of your "excuse" list I'm afraid. ;)

British Red

06-07-2006, 22:54

Martyn,

Nice spin yourself me old mucker but no dice, don't focus on one line please and ignore the many, many lines proving beyond refute that banning Landrovers and doing nothing about the rest of CO2 emissions will ahve no appreciable effect - that is my point

I've published a full set of statistical research and quoted my sources that prove that your personal prejudice against Landrovers in not motivated by any meaningful research into their net environmental impacts but a blind repetition of an exploded tabloid theory.

Feel free to hold all the (incorrect) theories you want, but they aren't facts. Global warming is occasioned by net cumultive CO2 emissions not insignifcant proportions of insignificant proportions. Your turn to back up your theories now. You prove to me with statistics and quoted sources how Landrovers are a significant contibutor to net CO2 or in any way more damaging than the way you choose to spend you income - on flights abroad - or are you just as bad as those you sit in judgement on but you would prefer to ignore the harm that your pleasure seeking causes and focus on theirs?

red :D

Martyn

06-07-2006, 22:57

This isnt about me, you or even John Travolta Red, it's about Landrovers, so lets not personalise it eh? For the sake of argument ...and to take me out of the equation, lets assume I've just planted 20 trees. OK? ;)

Spacemonkey

06-07-2006, 23:07

Ok, how about making it a little simpler... You don't need a big 4x4 to drive to the shops when a 1.4l ****box can do the job, so lets ban them. Yeah! Oh, and you don't need a custom made £250 handcrafted knife when a Frosts Mora does just as well (if not better...), so lets ban them too!
Oh hang about, you want a fancy knife, simply because you like it?
Hey, wait a minute, I've got an idea! Lets get rid of jet planes and re introduce Zeppelins, then we can all drive Landies safe in the knowledge that the world will be a better place. :naughty:

Martyn

06-07-2006, 23:10

Lets look at a couple of your numbers, which do illustrate how you stats illustrate a lot of spin. Though I'm sure you didnt intend me to pick up on these particular numbers, they are interesting...

Population of the world 6100000000
tonnes of CO2 output per person 3.9

and from the same post...

annual tonnes co2 per vehicle [Landrover Defender] 5.77

That's stunning. It means that your defender on it own produces almost twice the global population average of CO2 per year. Imagine if everyone on the planet owned a defender? The only reason your statistics dont impact with stupendous consequence, is because compared to the population of the planet, Defender owners, are indeed, a small minority - and thank goodness they are.

Now, Factor in Isuzu troopers, Nissan Patrol's Range Rovers, 110. 90's etc, etc, etc.

...spinning right round, like a record baby. :lmao:

British Red

06-07-2006, 23:12

Martyn,

I wasn't being personal :). I was merely exploring fallacies - such as

Ithe old series landies are eco-vandals, no question

Well actually there is a question - people have posted here and on other threads how they run old series Landies on eco diesel, others compensate or offset. Others in turn choose not to dump tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere for pleasure flights and make their net CO2 footprint lower that way. Landrovers as proven above are statistically insignificant in terms of global CO2 emissions (fact). Many other vehicles pollute just as much (they are listed in this thread) - fact.

I'm in favour of solving Global CO2 problems and work hard towards doing my share, but focussing on a tiny portion of 1 percent of 1 percent of the problem doesn't actually help

Red

Thoroughly enjoying the debating society by the way - and its still your turn to publish hard evidence ;)

British Red

06-07-2006, 23:15

And indeed another startling figure - a single family holiday to LA is also more than the world average CO2 output and a 1.4 litre hatchback is very nearly as much ;)

British Red

06-07-2006, 23:20

Now, Factor in Isuzu troopers, Nissan Patrol's Range Rovers, 110. 90's etc, etc, etc.

...spinning right round, in a circle baby. :lmao:

How strange - my last post disappeared - ah well

Yes lets factor in 110s and 90s - oh no - hang on 110s and 90s ARE Defenders :rolleyes:

Spinning it right back :lmao:

Martyn

06-07-2006, 23:21

British Red

06-07-2006, 23:23

Or one for 747s

Take only photos leave only another 3" of sea level? :)

Googled Tuvalu lately?

Red

Martyn

06-07-2006, 23:26

How strange - my last post disappeared - ah well

Yes lets factor in 110s and 90s - oh no - hang on 110s and 90s ARE Defenders :rolleyes:

Spinning it right back :lmao:

I was simply pointing out that you picked on ONE model, from a vast range from ONE manufacturer. I think you would get a little more accurate results if you spanned your numbers to include the whole commercial landrover range, discos and RR's, not to mention all the big US and Japanese 4x4's - if you are going to assess the global CO2 impact of big, fuel hungry 4x4's, you have to include them all dont you?

Surely if you want to work out if your elephant craps more than my horse, you have to look at more than just the one. ;)

British Red

06-07-2006, 23:28

Well as fun as playing "mythbusters" has been I'm off to the land of nod - and I'm walking all the way :)

Night all!

Red

Martyn

06-07-2006, 23:31

Well as fun as playing "mythbusters" has been I'm off to the land of nod - and I'm walking all the way :)

Night all!

Red

On the point of busting myths, will you at least conceed that the idea of the long life of a landrover compared to other vehicles, does NOT offest it's higher CO2 production?

Or is that gonna get brushed aside? ;)

Martyn

07-07-2006, 02:52

...and its still your turn to publish hard evidence ;)

Tons of CO2 produced in manufacturing a car: 5.25 (4.76271989 tonnes) [source (http://earthfuture.com/stormyweather/numbers/)]

I'll use your figures for the rest of the calculation.

For a Defender, Assume a 15 year working life

g of CO2/km output 299 (Gov figures for a manual diesel 110 defender)
number of avearge miles driver 12,000
number of kilometeres 19312
annual tonnes co2 per vehicle 5.77
annual tonnes of co2 for a 1.4 hatch 3.4

All the above are your figures, apart from the 4.76 tonnes used in the manufacture of an average car. Obviously manufacturing processes differ, but the CO2 output for the manufacture of steel and aluminium is pretty constant. The more steel & aluminium used in a car, the more CO2 it takes to produce the car. For every tonne of steel made, 2 tonnes of CO2 are produced. For every tonne of aluminium, 1.5 tonnes of CO2 are produced. You could calculate pretty accurately the CO2 production on a per-car basis, simply by knowing the % constituent materials and kerb weight for each vehicle. But for the sake of argument, we'll err (strongly) in the favour of the heavier landrover and assume CO2 production is the same for both vehicles.

The working life of a vehicle varies, so lets do a number of comparisons. We'll assume the mileage for each vehicle, to be 12,000 a year in all cases.
-------------------------------------------------------
First, lets assume the working life for both a landrover and 1.4 is equal at 30 years

Landrover: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 5.77tonnes) = 177.86 tonnes
1.4: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 3.4tonnes) = 106.76 tonnes ~ WINNER!
-------------------------------------------------------
Next, lets assume the working life of a landrover is 30 years and the working life of the 1.4 is 15 years...

Landrover: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 5.77tonnes) = 177.86 tonnes
1.4: 2x4.76tonnes +2x(15 x 3.4tonnes) = 111.52 tonnes ~ WINNER!
-------------------------------------------------------
Next, lets assume the working life of a landrover is 30 years and the working life of the 1.4 is 10 years...

Landrover: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 5.77tonnes) = 177.86 tonnes
1.4: 3x4.76tonnes +3x(10 x 3.4tonnes) = 116.28 tonnes ~ WINNER!
-------------------------------------------------------
Next, lets assume the working life of a landrover is 30 years and the working life of the 1.4 is 5 years...

Landrover: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 5.77tonnes) = 177.86 tonnes
1.4: 6x4.76tonnes +6x(5 x 3.4tonnes) = 130.56 tonnes ~ WINNER!
-------------------------------------------------------
Next, lets assume the working life of a landrover is 30 years and the working life of the 1.4 is 2 years...

Landrover: 4.76tonnes +(30 x 5.77tonnes) = 177.86 tonnes
1.4: 15x4.76tonnes +15x(2 x 3.4tonnes) = 173.4 tonnes ~ WINNER!
-------------------------------------------------------

What this shows, is that you could buy a brand new 1.4 every 2 years over a 30 year period and still not put as much net contributions of CO2 into the sky as buying one landrover over the same period.

If you do the above calculations but instead of basing the CO2 production on 12,000 miles a year, halve it and use 6,000 miles a year, then the landrover doesnt look quite as bad. But all this proves is that the more you drive it, the worse things get.

Myth busted, ...I think. ;)

Feel free to critique the above with anything but rhetoric. :)

It's simple maths. If your vehicle does 15mpg, then you are putting twice as much pollution into the air as a car that does 30mpg, regardless of the make/model of the vehicles involved.

wingstoo

07-07-2006, 06:52

Martyn,

It's no good arguing with Red, he is right, you are not...

Also, I am not getting into your denial line...

Just enjoy the heat while you can...before the next ice age takes a grip...

Well done Red...You are the one who is keeping to the point....

How does my LPG conversion change the outcome?

LS

scanker

07-07-2006, 07:01

To pick up on one of the earlier points, has anyone seen an episode of "Inventions that changed the World" with Jeremy Clarkson? Can't stand the man, but the programmes were good.
In the jet episode, where he flew around the world, it was stated that the weather system changed in the days following Sept 11 when no planes were allowed over US air space. I can't remember exactly what it was, but I think average temperature dropped by 1 one degree in those few days. I'll try and find a reference.

(Edit) Not to do with CO2, but interesting:
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/science/08/07/contrails.climate/index.html

British Red

07-07-2006, 07:06

Martyyn, have you ever read the OED definition of rhetoric?
"language designed to persuade or impress - often with an implication of insincerity or exaggeration"

Shouldnt bushcrafters be encouraging the protection of the environment, rather than the destruction of it?

If thats not a piece of rhetoric, I don't what is! You started this debate in the rhetorical style mate, not me!

Want some more examples?

the old series landies are eco-vandals, no question.

Comparing all the landrover emmisions in the world to aeroplanes is nonesense, it's just spouting a meaningless set of numbers that dont add up to anything, except perhaps a seat on the Labour Party back bench. :D

Those are all nice examples of the rhetorical style don't you agree? I haven't been drawn by being accused of "nonsense", "meaningless" etc. and I won't be provoked into an outburst - simply not my style, but I think we can all see where the rhetoric lies in this discussion can't we? ANyway, back to my final post on the topic

But all this proves is that the more you drive it, the worse things get.

Absoulutely - thats as true of every other vehicle on the planet too! :) Your figures suggest BTW that 12,000 is an average mileage - that implies that Landrovers drive 360,000 miles before wearing out - do you REALLY think thats true Martyn? Or even 180,000? Do you think most 1.4s really cover 160,000 miles without an engine change etc. If they don't you are of course underquoting the manufacturing figures. Please quote your source for this information. I used 12,000 a year to show Landys in the worst possible light to show my maths to be fair - your using it to show them in a poor light.

What this shows, is that you could buy a brand new 1.4 every 2 years over a 30 year period and still not put as much net contributions of CO2 into the sky as buying one landrover over the same period.

It shows nothing of the sort Martyn. The amount of CO2 you put into the atmoshphere depends on the way you live your life - this incoprorates huge numbers of factors. I have already demonstrated that there are many ways to offset CO2 emissions - please include in your calculation the number of LandRovers that use biodiesel, the number of Landrover owners that carbon offset etc. Both of these are ways to make net CO2 emissions zero. Then publish a similar, sourced, comparison for the other car. You cannot quote gross figures - even in the absurdly meaningless thought of determining someones green standing by vehicle choice alone - its the net figure that counts not the gross figure

Now my entire point is that accusing series Landrovers (as you have) of being "Eco Vandals" is deliberately inflamatory and just plain wrong. A series Landrover used occasionally produces less CO2 than a 1.4 used daily - yet you reject the idea that someone can make valid ecological choices by varying their lifestyle. I have proved that driving a Defender is no less damaging than taking a foreign holiday. I have proved that removing a vehicle you don't want to see used will have no material effect. If you want to have an ecological or lifestyle debate, you cannot ignore 90+% of causes of pollution because they don't suit your argument or chosen lifestyle.

By all means give your opinions but they are that - one persons opinions and, in MY opinion you are wrong

I think we are getting no-where with this - I can't get you to admit that everyone needs to change lifestyle to have a significant effect on global warming. It seems to be more comfortable for you to focus on a tiny fraction of 1% of CO2 pollution and feel that gives you the right to us other rhetorical terms like "Eco Vandal". It doesn't. I've shown it to be a fallacy.

In MY opinion the facts are obvious now - lets let people draw their own conclusions .

Red

mark a.

07-07-2006, 08:56

Although interesting, these are all moot points. Ray Mears drives Defenders, so that's the end of the argument.

:nana:

EdS

07-07-2006, 09:45

The average older Land Rover has less CO2 in its production than a small family eurobox - you don't get all the plastic and carpet for a start.

The other thing is that they can be repaired and parts reconditioned rather than having to keep making whole new engines, gear boxes etc.

At the end of the day my 90 (only became the Defender in 1989 with the introduction ofthe 200TDi engine) is a bit more environmentally firendly than my 1.7TD Astra, when age and repaiablitiy are considered.

Also a 4x4 with the correct tyres and well driven leaves a lot less visable trace than a car that struggles and wheel spins.

JonnyP

07-07-2006, 12:48

Assume a 15 year working life

Red

My landy has been a working vehicle all its life, starting with the council. It is now 20 yrs old and still going fine, still passing the mot, including the emissions test. My landy is not on its last legs and I still see plenty of older, working landys on the road and we all wave to each other, cos we know we bought a superb motor

Doc

07-07-2006, 13:01

Anyone ever had one of these?

http://www.wastemonsters.org.uk/TrueGenericFeb06-Web.pdf

Apparently only 5% of 4x4s are ever used off road.

Martyn

07-07-2006, 13:22

I think we are getting no-where with this
I'd agree with that. The lengths you are going to, to avoid actually addressing the point of lifespan is staggering. I (or anyone else) can re-run the numbers with an average mileage of 6000 year if you like. Doesnt matter how you try and spin this point Red, the landrover looses out every time and the numbers prove it.

On the other hand, I may just take your refusal to address the point as conceeding it by default. I'm sure if you could spot an error in it, you would've jumped on it. ;)

In MY opinion the facts are obvious now - lets let people draw their own conclusions .
I agree with that also. Thanks for the definition of rhetoric, I think you've defined it very well. :D

Martyn

07-07-2006, 13:23

Martyn,

It's no good arguing with Red, he is right, you are not...

....nah, na, na nahhh na..?

LS that's not exactly constructive. You're a landrover owner right? :rolleyes:

Martyn

07-07-2006, 13:33

Apparently only 5% of 4x4s are ever used off road.

Not if you believe Red, they are all used only at the weekends, with 6 passengers, exclusively off road, by people who walk to work in the week, fuel them with rapeseed oil, never fly in planes and ease thier concience by paying someone to plant trees.

Do we believe that?

:lmao:

pumbaa

07-07-2006, 13:40

Anyone ever had one of these?

http://www.wastemonsters.org.uk/TrueGenericFeb06-Web.pdf

Apparently only 5% of 4x4s are ever used off road.

I havn't , but then i would have to disagree with some of their facts . For instance my Land rover Discovery returns 30 mpgs round town . Which completely screws their argument . Its not a case of which type of motor vehicle is the worst at producing CO2 . Its a case of ALL motorvehicles . There is really only one answer to this situation , and that is to produce a form of transport that doesnt cost the enviroment . Its not going to work suggesting Bicycles or other "man powered" vehicles as the majority of the population are lazy and wont bother , opting for the less effort rather than the enviroment ! I have heard of instances wher the big oil industrys have bullied small time business who have started to come up with a viable alternative , into giving up and all because they would lose out on money !! The internal combustion engine has pretty much had its day , its time to find another power source to propel us around while we grow fatter and less fit !
Pumbaa

Buckshot

07-07-2006, 13:50

Doc

07-07-2006, 13:57

The whole question of cars and CO2 is a tricky one. I have read that most journeys are under 7 miles and given the huge and increasing prevalence of obesity the bike is the obvious choice. Then again, cycling on a busy road is often neither pleasant nor safe.

Here on BCUK I suspect a lot more than 5% of 4x4s are actually used off road. It is interesting that the BCUK 4x4s of choice seem to be the Landie and Toyotas which do seem to be preferred by those who have to go off road. I have yet to see a Mercedes M class with mud on its tyres.

I agree the leaflet is rather one sided (though the mpg figures are the official urban cycle) but I suspect the 'only 5% are used off road' statement is pretty accurate.

Our current fossil fuel use and CO2 production is not sustainable. I don't think fashion, image or lifestyle statement is a good enough reason to drive a more polluting vehicle. However, I readily accept I am being somewhat hypocritical as I often use my car to go wildfowling or canoeing, which are not really any more necessary or important than someone elses lifestyle statement. We are all in a glass house, and it's not a good place to get out the catapult.

Martyn

07-07-2006, 14:22

We are all in a glass house, and it's not a good place to get out the catapult.

True, I'll put mine away now.

I would like to own a landrover, but as you say, I think it would be more of a lifestyle choice than a need. I think I would fall into the 95% of owners who dont take it off road and just end up driving round polluting the place for no good reason. I'm not gonna give up my holidays abroad and I dont have the resources to make biodiesel. No matter how much I may want one, this is always in my head. But I aint gonna go round putting "eco-vandal" stickers on em either. If other people can justify it, then that is thier business.

pumbaa

07-07-2006, 14:52

Those eco vandel stickers may get you in a whole heap of trouble . As an example , my mother in law is in a wheelchair and part of some front line disability rights organisations . One of these organisations made a load of stickers for cars who park in a disabled bay with no badge . They ended up getting done for criminal damage because the stickers were very difficult to get off . So any eco-warrior using these will likely as not end up with a criminal record .
Pumbaa

Buckshot

07-07-2006, 16:42

I have yet to see a Mercedes M class with mud on its tyres.
.
Doc,
One of the guns I work for uses his Merc all the time and gets most places the rest of us do with our Landys. :eek:

Mark

Doc

07-07-2006, 17:03

Ah well, I stand corrected! :)

Probably very capable off road, but it is a very expensive piece of machinery (circa £50K for the top of the range :eek: )

bogflogger

07-07-2006, 17:36

LOL- I think I have a perfect Solution:

Convert your Land rover to run on "facts" and "statistics" then all that it will produce is Hot Air! :D

Right, I'm off to my local Humvee Dealers, to make up for all these years of cycling and walking.

Gotta reclaim my Carbon defecit after all. :cool:

Guess I will also need an Eco friendly "Swanni" (caringly made in China, shipped to New Zealand and then shipped on here, by Eco friendly Diesel Ship). :cussing:

After all, "Life-style now" is more important than a Breathable Atmosphere tomorrow. :cool:

British Red

07-07-2006, 17:44

Not if you believe Red, they are all used only at the weekends, with 6 passengers, exclusively off road, by people who walk to work in the week, fuel them with rapeseed oil, never fly in planes and ease thier concience by paying someone to plant trees.

Do we believe that?

:lmao:

Martyn,

Whilst I am happy to engage in a vigorous debate, I have never made the statement that 4wds are "all used only at the weekends, with 6 passengers, exclusively off road, by people who walk to work in the week, fuel them with rapeseed oil, never fly in planes and ease thier concience by paying someone to plant trees.".

I am sure that ascribing such a statement to me is a simple error on your part rather than a calculated or deliberate misquotation, but I would be grateful if you would extend me the courtesy of correcting the mistake

Thanks

Red

Martyn

07-07-2006, 18:00

Martyn,

Whilst I am happy to engage in a vigorous debate, I have never made the statement that 4wds are "all used only at the weekends, with 6 passengers, exclusively off road, by people who walk to work in the week, fuel them with rapeseed oil, never fly in planes and ease thier concience by paying someone to plant trees.".

I am sure that ascribing such a statement to me is a simple error on your part rather than a calculated or deliberate misquotation, but I would be grateful if you would extend me the courtesy of correcting the mistake

Thanks

Red

No, it was a deliberate overstatement Red. To me, most of your points are excuses, some are a bit unrealistic and some are just wrong. I think the reality of it is simply that 95% of the big 4x4's are driven by one person, never taken off road, run on conventional diesel, are not carbon neutral and are driven by people who also fly in planes. I dont hold with the argument that it's OK for you to pollute, because your neighbour pollutes more than you, but each to his own. As Doc said earlier, we all live in a glass house and I certainly aint no eco-angel. :D

Eco-van, or eco-vandal, your choice my friend. :)

wingstoo

07-07-2006, 18:37

....nah, na, na nahhh na..?

LS that's not exactly constructive. You're a landrover owner right? :rolleyes:

Yes Martyn I do...3.5 ltrs of grunt under the bonnet...with a top speed of 85 MPH, and running on LPG, no petrol needed except as a back up should the gas run out.

I used to have a 1300 4 speed escort, and did you know that a 1600 5 speed escort actuallyuses less fuel than a 1300.

I Would drive it off road all the time but the pedestrians do for some reason think they "they" own the pavements! fools...

It is 18 years old with the original engine and still going strong, had to change the fuel tank about three years back, and it will need a couple of patches on the chassis for it's next MOT, passes the emisions test every year (since I had it) and used to be used for the Air Cadet unit where I was OC, regularly had 11 passengers in it with a trailer of kit behind...far less polluting than the three cars we would have used to do the same trip, so in that respect as well as the others it is environmentally more friendly...I travel anything up to and including 55 miles each way to work in a company van and my DW drives a 1800 petrol Mitsibushi...

Did you know that it is cheaper to put a bicycle on a train from London to Scotland than it is to put it on the roof rack of a car, because of the extra fuel it would need...All roof racks cause the same phenomina...

We do not have foreign holidays, why should we, the places we looked at were full of foreigners...

I may, in your opinion be "not" environmentally friendly, but as stated, that is "your" opinion...

Anbd we all know what is said about opinions...

So nahnah na na nah to you as well :buttkick:

LS :lmao: :lmao:

Martyn

07-07-2006, 18:50

I may, in your opinion be "not" environmentally friendly, but as stated, that is "your" opinion...

Anbd we all know what is said about opinions...

My sincere apologies for having a different one to you. :rolleyes:

wingstoo

07-07-2006, 18:59

My sincere apologies for having a different one to you. :rolleyes:

:eek: :confused: A MOD who can apologise...Wow...do I need a drink...

LS

Martyn

07-07-2006, 19:04

:eek: :confused: A MOD who can apologise...Wow...do I need a drink...

LS

I hope not while you're behind the wheel of that 4x4 minibus? ;) :lmao:

wingstoo

07-07-2006, 19:14

I hope not while you're behind the wheel of that 4x4 minibus? ;) :lmao:

But of course Martyn...Another fact is that 5% of accidents are caused by drink drivers...the other 95% are caused by drivers who are stone cold sober...Much safer to drive whilst drunk, apart from anything else the road is twice as wide...

LS

Ps...For those of you readers who do not understand that this is a JOKE posting, please ignore the above...

mojofilter

07-07-2006, 19:16

I have a TD Range Rover and can fully justify it 100% ;)

Not that I need to.... :rolleyes:

:D

swyn

07-07-2006, 22:18

The scary bit on the lanes round here are the silver BMW and Mercedes 4x4 and also other drivers who come at you in the narrow places with their foot flat on the accelerator. This is not the best place to be on a pushbike! Two wing mirrors later and some bruising I have returned to keeping my LR 110 HCPU at home and driving to work again. Wow the difference in attitude.... people give way!! Sadly this is on the 1/2 mile lane I spent two years peddling to work through, but the attitude of the majority of vehicle drivers at 0745 is just too silly to risk any more.
I do just about 7000 miles a year 22000 now on the clock. Have paid people this year to plant 2500 young trees. 500 last year, the same the year before and have now lost count and am running out of space to do stands! I had to fly to scotland in May to sort out a forestry machine with a firm who do this sort of thing. There are no people in England who can do this sort of work. I had to be there in person. This was my first flight since 1993.
I still regard myself as an eco-vandal :eek: But I love my LR, and the children love riding in the back. A small 1.4 would soon be ruined ,although it would be a godsend in town where the LR is really out of place. Swyn

British Red

08-07-2006, 18:56

I 'll limit this post to three quotes

Martyn,

Whilst I am happy to engage in a vigorous debate, I have never made the statement that 4wds are "all used only at the weekends, with 6 passengers, exclusively off road, by people who walk to work in the week, fuel them with rapeseed oil, never fly in planes and ease thier concience by paying someone to plant trees.".

I am sure that ascribing such a statement to me is a simple error on your part rather than a calculated or deliberate misquotation, but I would be grateful if you would extend me the courtesy of correcting the mistake

Thanks

Red

No, it was a deliberate overstatement Red.<snip>

People also need to refrain from stating things as fact when they are untrue, badly researched, assumption or personal opinion. If you have an opinion, idea or theory you are free to voice it. But do not make it sound like anything other than what it is. If you do state something as fact, make sure it is.

Martyn

08-07-2006, 19:32

Hmmm, heres another example...

Okay all 4x4 drivers are eco vandals except:

1. Those who live or work in the country and need off road capability
2. Those who offset the CO2 output
3. Those who use biodiesel
4. Those who drive Freelanders
5. Those who drive Range Rover Sports
6. Those who carry lots of equipment and tow trailers
7. Thosewho use the extra seating capacity to mean the g/CO2 per passenger mile is lower
8. Those who don't fly abroad and therefore reduce other equivalent emissions
9. Those who use low footprint transport in the week
10 Those who drive very old vehicles and therefore reduce the manufacturing output CO2

Yes but OTHER than them all 4x4 drivers are eco vandles

So what HAVE the Romans ever done for us? :D

Red

Get over it Red, you're boring me.

British Red

08-07-2006, 19:38

Nothing in there using your name Martyn

Martyn

08-07-2006, 19:41

You are being petty and petulant Red.

Report the post if you want.

British Red

08-07-2006, 19:46

Martyn,

At no time have I insulted you - please extend me the same courtesy

Do not make comments of a personal nature about anyone. I am not saying that you cannot banter between yourselves as friends. But that is a far cry from making remarks that negatively reflect on other people. Please respect people and the things they do even if you have a different opinion.

Toddy

08-07-2006, 19:53

Gentlemen, your right to a vigorous debate is one thing but the intent of the thread :-

"I've been driving now for many years, but never my own vehicle - living in Edinburgh means that the need for one is quite low, since everything is in walking distance, and the buses are good for farther away places.

However, every now and then I think that I should consider investing in a vehicle (second-hand, reliable, not new or flashy) that will get me, some people and/or some equipment from A->B with as little effort as possible.

My only real limiting factors are:

Cost to buy - nothing more than say 5-6 grand - its not something I'll be using regularly (once/twice a week at most I expect).

Size - nothing vast or tiny - I don't need a tank or a mini (I'm 6'4" and wanting to park most of the time in a city, and at least drive in and out of it.

Running - I need something that doesn't cost the earth to fix, isn't too picky about not being run every day, and isn't too environmentally horrible to run (yes, I know that really rules out all vehicles )

So - any suggestions? What do other people use? Any general or specific comments about choosing? I'm interested to see what the bushcrafter-about-countryside drives about in (you don't ALL drive 4x4's do you? )"

was a simple request for advice on a suitable vehicle, not to stun us all with the flexible use of statistics :rolleyes:
Can we let the landrover debate lie, now?
Pretty please :)

Actually, this is an old thread anyway......Match have you bought a vehicle yet?

Cheers,
Toddy

Martyn

08-07-2006, 19:58

Martyn,

At no time have I insulted you - please extend me the same courtesy

There is a difference between insult and observation.
We've already had this discussion via PM two days ago. If you feel you have a grievance, report the post to the administrator if you havent already done so, or let it drop. Either way, there is no excuse to use this thread as a stage for solving your quarrels.

End of conversation.

British Red

08-07-2006, 19:59

For you and such a polite request Toddy, it would be nothing but a pleasure :)

Red

chewie

08-07-2006, 22:38

Not road legal, goes anywhere, spectacular fun. (http://www.argocat.com/)
Military bike, civilian version on way, 120 miles per gallon of biodiesel. (http://www.dieselmotorcycles.com/military.htm#bike2)
Quirky, harder to fall off, bit old-fashioned, 2WD. (http://www.ural-motorcycles.com/nf/uranger/index.htm)
Road legal quad bike (http://www.biker247.com/news/708.asp). [lots about now]
Weird but very eco-friendly. (http://www.ecorider.com/index.asp)
Every-day options [1] (http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/feature.jsp?id=1045) [2] (http://www.channel4.com/4car/feature/feature.jsp?id=1076) [3] (http://www.channel4.com/4car/road-tests/road-test.jsp?id=110) etc...

mojofilter

08-07-2006, 22:51

For some perverted reason, I'd love a go of an Ecorider..... :D

http://www.ecorider.com/images/leisure2.jpg

george

09-07-2006, 12:32

I find myself strangely drawn to one of these: http://www.rokon.com/products/trailbrkr.htm

George

Gibbsy

09-07-2006, 13:06

The last link didn't work so here goes again.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/th_4386916a.jpg (http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g204/bellendbilly/4386916a.jpg)

Spacemonkey

09-07-2006, 17:27

For some perverted reason, I'd love a go of an Ecorider..... :D

http://www.ecorider.com/images/leisure2.jpg

Oh yes... That'd make an excellent green laner with full registration, and the optional rifle holder would come in handy on the Ridgeway when Janet Street Porter's misguided acolytes get in the way...

gunnix

28-07-2006, 19:30

I've read the topic with interest.. Some thoughts of me:

I think biodiesel being carbon neutral is an absolute false statement. Since most biodiesel is coming from Brazil (sugar cane) and South East Asia ( palm oil plantations) where they destroy forests full of life to plant biodiesel crops in a monoculture (so the land has much less life, less co2 intake then it had before). Those crops are probably raised with oil as fertilizer, pesticide, etc and then shipped in big tankers to europe. But if you are making it locally it can be carbon neutral, though that only works for a small group, if all the cars have to be biodiesel then we probably are going to starve to death because the cars are eating everything up...

Just a link: http://www.monbiot.com/archives/2005/12/06/worse-than-fossil-fuel/

Here in Gent we have a "ghent bio energy valley". I went to a conference about it. And it's just absolutely rediculous. They say they make eco friendly fuel there, but everything comes from the other side of the planet and then it's just the last step of the process which is done here.

Me I decided for myself never to fly, nor buy a car. I live in a very small caravan, don't have electricity, running water or whatever... I sometimes lend a car though, and I already went on vacation to norway for two weeks and now I'm going 3 weeks to italy (by bus, even if flying is cheaper..)... I don't think I'm holier then anyone, coz actually I just do this because I like it more. I'm too lazy to go working more to pay for a car and I enjoy biking much more. I don't like big houses etc.... I find traveling by bus much more relaxed then traveling by air, I really hate all those scanners and the way those employees are in airports... Though I don't like public transport in general, I like traveling by foot or bike even more, but yea... my girlfriend is italian and we have to go visit her family... she can't miss them. But I don't mind not seeing mine all too much so we'll move to italy next year ;).

Another thought, wouldn't there be less pollution if the roads weren't maintained anymore and people drived in off road vehicles like landrovers? :)

Anyway, I did look at some the cars here, and they look interesting, since I live in a caravan it would maybe be nice to once have a car to pull it ;) . Last week I saw an awesome three wheeled motorbike pulling a caravan on on the highway! It looked really great and I like motorbikes more then cars... Maybe I'll never buy a car but maybe I buy a big polluting motorbike ;)

steven andrews

28-07-2006, 23:23

The new JCB HMUV looks great fun.

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/576/jcbtf9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/201952/dig_this_jcbs_topsecret_4x4.ht ml

havingagiraffe

29-07-2006, 00:14

I find myself strangely drawn to one of these: http://www.rokon.com/products/trailbrkr.htm

George

Funky... :D and for $200 extra they'll supply it in camouflage :rolleyes:

gunnix

30-07-2006, 14:43

Funky... :D and for $200 extra they'll supply it in camouflage :rolleyes:

Wow that one looks really cool :), nice accesoires ! Now lets see if it can pull a caravan too and I'm sold :p

edit: hmm they don't seem to drive so fast, I could just as well go by bike :(

seamonkey

22-09-2006, 09:09

Hi Match

A vote for a old subaru legacy - you can pick them up for peanuts - look in the Angus section of autotrader ( a lot of farmers use them)

good 4wd , good emissions - i tried really hard to break one and couldn't

also no-one will look at it twice in the street (i lived in the centre of edinburgh for over 10 years and even my bangers got vandalised)

Alternatively get the bus up to Balerno and just get out in the pentlands and walk back :-)

Cheers

Graham

MikeS

22-09-2006, 09:45

I must admit I had never thought about old subaru's. The only problem can be ground clearance, so as always I guess it depends on where you are going to be using it and how bad the ground it.

spoony

22-09-2006, 11:23

OK, I'm gonna get flamed for this, I'm sure, but...
I have to say, I'm horrified at all the "get a landrover" responses.

For people who are supposed to be the custodians of the countryside with "take only photo's and leave only footprints" as an often cited catchphrase, the suggestions for landrovers are crazy. They are one of the most environmentally unfriendly vehicles on the road, not just because they chew the place up (...if you are not off-roading, why have one?), but because they consume horrendous amounts of fuel and pump buckets of CO2 into the sky. The guy asked for suggestions for a bushcraft vehicle. I think the obvious answer is not a landrover, but "catch the bus and walk the rest". I appreciate that is probably a little unrealistic, but I think it's a lot closer to a "bushcraft" solution, than a 110. Certainly given the chaps remit of...

Shouldnt we be recommenting an economical, environmentally friendly town car - most cars can run up a dirt track, maybe something a bit ruggedized, but that stops a long way short of an old 110.

Personally, I'd love an old landy, but I have virtually no need at all for taking one off-roading (very few people genuinely do) and I simply cant justify chucking all that crap into the environment just because I fancy myself in one.

I would buy a freelander TD4 though, 34mpg and lower CO2 emissions than most family saloons. They get the environment green light, but are just about the only vehicle in the range that does and you wont get one for £5k.

I do appreciate that people take thier vehicles off-road on occasion, or live on farms, or long ways down dirt tracks in the sticks, and that's fine (if you really, really do), I have no issue with those folks. But that's not this chaps spot. He wants a town vehicle, a luggage humper and a shopping trolley, with the ability to hump his load to the edge of the woods on a weekend. Is that honestly landrover teritory?

Shouldnt bushcrafters be encouraging the protection of the environment, rather than the destruction of it? Or am I missing something?

I think "bushcraft vehicle" is an oxymoron, with the only answers being..

walk
paddle
ride

agree totally, it seems most have forgotten what it will be used for, i would say a susuki jimny, cheap and cheerful, not to bad on fuel, and the enviroment, and will go some places a 110 will struggle.

The Joker

22-09-2006, 11:36

My bushcraft vehicle is the one that can get me to my meets......as long as it gets me there I don't care what it is.........ish :lmao:

steve a

22-09-2006, 11:38

Where's that then Spoony ?, under the barrier at the carpark :lmao: :lmao:

seamonkey

22-09-2006, 13:57

I must admit I had never thought about old subaru's. The only problem can be ground clearance, so as always I guess it depends on where you are going to be using it and how bad the ground it.

Good point Mike , - but honestly the dirty dirty tracks tracks i've seen some old Subarus go up makes me think that it's a capable motor for 99% of people , (one of the landlords in the pentlands (outside edinburgh)has used an old rusty beaten up Justy for years all year round and i'm sure its still going strong)
They also seem to be very popular here in NZ as an alternative to a jeep type 4wd.

However if you are talking going "proper" off roading then i'm not the right person to comment on this at all so belay this info :-)

It's gripped, its sorted

LETS OFF ROAD!

cheers

:-)

dave k

03-10-2006, 11:51

"and there was me about to fly to the states to buy a custom-built Hummer H1 for popping down to the shops with" - I kid you not, someone in Poole has just done this!

MikeS

03-10-2006, 15:29

"and there was me about to fly to the states to buy a custom-built Hummer H1 for popping down to the shops with" - I kid you not, someone in Poole has just done this!
A man after my own heart. :You_Rock_ I love a day out green laning, fun to mix with a day in the woods and collecting a bit of firewood.

BorderReiver

03-10-2006, 16:07

"and there was me about to fly to the states to buy a custom-built Hummer H1 for popping down to the shops with" - I kid you not, someone in Poole has just done this!

Does it come with it's own fuel tanker trailer? :p

Spacemonkey

03-10-2006, 17:38

Don't think it will fit down any UK green lanes... best used only for invading oil rich countries to keep the thing fuelld up! Would love to play in one in the Sahara though...

TallMikeM

03-10-2006, 17:41

"and there was me about to fly to the states to buy a custom-built Hummer H1 for popping down to the shops with" - I kid you not, someone in Poole has just done this!

I live round the corner from the arsenal training ground. Several of the squad have those things, but the blinged upto the eyeball model. Hideous things.

Nigel

03-10-2006, 17:44

Try These

http://www.actionmobil.com/

Spacemonkey

03-10-2006, 18:00

I live round the corner from the arsenal training ground. Several of the squad have those things, but the blinged upto the eyeball model. Hideous things.

So did/do I!! I was up in those nasty tower blocks that peer into the new ground, but now I'm only there at weekends. Trouble is, you need a Hummer to traverse the god damned awful roads around there...

Nightwalker

03-10-2006, 18:08

What vehicle for bushcraft? Your good sturdy hiking boots of course!

Too Much Kit To Carry

03-10-2006, 18:16

Your good sturdy hiking boots of course!

Well said!!

My Lowa's have always managed to get me to where I wanted to be :)

Phil.

spoony

03-10-2006, 18:26

Where's that then Spoony ?, under the barrier at the carpark :lmao: :lmao:
they have a off road test track, where you can try them, and the jimny got round whist a 110 got stuck,

Spacemonkey

03-10-2006, 18:29

I had the same thing happen in my Sportrak. We floated over the ruts whilst a Disco got rather stuck.....

Nightwalker

03-10-2006, 18:42

Well said!!
My Lowa's have always managed to get me to where I wanted to be :)
Phil. Often when I do my boots up nice and tight and they feel sturdy and comfy it reminds me of something my dad said to me when I was 16. I just made the team for our county rugby squad and he took me to buy some new boots, I tried them on lacing them up nice and tight and he said; "how do they feel?.. If they feel like you could fight a war and take on the world with'em your in the right boots." :) lol.

Too Much Kit To Carry

03-10-2006, 20:29

<snip>..he said; "how do they feel?.. If they feel like you could fight a war and take on the world with'em your in the right boots." :) lol.

WHAT A SPOT ON QUOTE!!!!

That is the exact feeling I get when I've cleaned, waxed and slip into my old Lowa boots!

There is no better form of travel than a pair of good boots - and I've never had a pair breakdown on me when I needed them the most nor give me a nasty surprise bill when they needed an MOT <read TLC> :lmao:

I LOVE MY BOOTS :aargh4:

:lmao:

Phil.

dave k

04-10-2006, 13:38

Nightwalker

05-10-2006, 02:01

Actually getting back on topic for a sec -
.............
I'm surprised that FOTE or Greenpeace has not done research on this. e.g. if you keep an old car going for 10 years instead of buying a newer model, you save X amount of co2, chemicals, etc.etc. :rolleyes: I think our chatter about the boots was more on-topic! :p Only joking bud ;)

cyclist

05-10-2006, 08:42

Too Much Kit To Carry

05-10-2006, 19:12

if money is nothing of an issue and if you have about one and a half years time to have one made to your specifications: Desert Challenger by Actionmobil

They custom recycle ex Nato MAN CAT anti aircraft missile launchers: 12m long, 3m wide, 600hp, 8x8 drive train, 30tonns, 5mpg (better start drilling for oil on your lawn), granite floor - a real bargain for about € 1.5 million
www.actionmobil.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=a lbum10

WOW - checked out link to the "bargain" - it looked very comprehensive, BUT where is the "long log" fire in the lounge area and where should do you leave your muddy boots, or does the Butler clean them :lmao:

Phil.

ilovemybed

06-10-2006, 02:45

Good point Mike , - but honestly the dirty dirty tracks tracks i've seen some old Subarus go up makes me think that it's a capable motor for 99% of people , (one of the landlords in the pentlands (outside edinburgh)has used an old rusty beaten up Justy for years all year round and i'm sure its still going strong)
They also seem to be very popular here in NZ as an alternative to a jeep type 4wd...

Wooo Justy! Got mine for £500 and it would go where my mate's suzuki King Quad couldn't. Unfortunately, after about 90000 miles of abuse the head gasket went, and it moved on to the big car park in the sky. :(

Neil

cyclist

06-10-2006, 07:22

WOW - checked out link to the "bargain" - it looked very comprehensive, BUT where is the "long log" fire in the lounge area and where should do you leave your muddy boots, or does the Butler clean them :lmao:

Phil.

the Butler follows in one of the smaller 4x4 or 6x6 Actionmobils, a third Actionmobil (or a HEMT) carries the spare fuel :D

Btw, wasn´t here a discussion about eco friendly vehicles? Now you´ll get an idea how eco friendly old Landys are, just imagine the engergy it takes to fabricate those 8 big tires :yelrotflm

gunnix

08-10-2006, 19:30

Actually getting back on topic for a sec - someone above mentioned that their 60mpg car in 5 years would put out less CO2 than a 30year old landrover.

This is technically correct, but if you have to make a new car every 5 years this is incredibly costly in terms of CO2 and dangerous emmission's. Whatcar have just done a green-car survey, and it points out that the new landrover discovery is greener to manufacture than a toyota prius. If the LR lasts you 20 years and the prius only 10, you're still better off keeping the LR going as long as it can. Since these new hybric cars are incredibly complex there is more manafacturing required - hence less green.

Painting a car is perhaps the worst environmentally damaging thing you can do - the amount of noxious chemical's that are used are incredible.

I'm surprised that FOTE or Greenpeace has not done research on this. e.g. if you keep an old car going for 10 years instead of buying a newer model, you save X amount of co2, chemicals, etc.etc.

The short of it is if you buy a car keep it going as long as you can, if you want to me more green!

Great point.

More people should look further then their nose and look at production costs etc because they are almost never included when talking about how environmentally friendly a product like a car, computer, mobile phone, etc is. Some environmentalists will say it's more environmentally friendly to buy a new tft monitor for instance because it uses less power, but they forget about what to do with the old working monitor which probably ends up as highly toxic waste on a dump in africa or asia.

I guess that's why it's possible, the pollution of production and waste is almost all externalized to other countries where we aren't. Problem solved.

MikeS

10-10-2006, 19:57

Great point.

More people should look further then their nose and look at production costs etc because they are almost never included when talking about how environmentally friendly a product like a car, computer, mobile phone, etc is. Some environmentalists will say it's more environmentally friendly to buy a new tft monitor for instance because it uses less power, but they forget about what to do with the old working monitor which probably ends up as highly toxic waste on a dump in africa or asia.

I guess that's why it's possible, the pollution of production and waste is almost all externalized to other countries where we aren't. Problem solved.

Here here. If I'm not careful I could easily get on my hobby horse about the "Throw away society" :You_Rock_

Mike

BorderReiver

10-10-2006, 20:32

if money is nothing of an issue and if you have about one and a half years time to have one made to your specifications: Desert Challenger by Actionmobil

They custom recycle ex Nato MAN CAT anti aircraft missile launchers: 12m long, 3m wide, 600hp, 8x8 drive train, 30tonns, 5mpg (better start drilling for oil on your lawn), granite floor - a real bargain for about € 1.5 million
www.actionmobil.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=a lbum10

Now that's what I call a vehicle for bushcraft. :lmao: :lmao:

Minotaur

20-10-2006, 13:25

Since these new hybric cars are incredibly complex there is more manafacturing required - hence less green.

The most enviromentally friendly car at the moment would be the simplest diesel you could find, because they can be converted to Veg fuel, which I think has a positive effect. One of the big advantages to Land Rovers is that the number one conversion is to put a diesel engine in one.

cyclist

21-10-2006, 08:36

diesel exhaust contains particles harmful to your lung, high pressure direct injection systems create even smaller particles going deeper in lunges. No need for smoking if one wants cancer
Diesel vehicles may be environmetally friendly if equipped with a particle filter.
Bio diesel is just a way to unnessesary convert vegoil - it´s an easy way to make money for some companies

dave k

23-10-2006, 11:04

Amen to this one.. The amount of smog that I had to put up with cycling to work in the buslanes was dreadfull. Worse in the summer, since the local council banned people from cycling on the promenade from Poole to Bournemouth - nose to tail behind a smog-chugging diesel bus for 10 miles... nice..

woodmunky

23-10-2006, 11:12

ok so it's a little more aggressive than ur average LR...

http://www.bowler-offroad.com/NAV1.htm

Fishd

26-10-2006, 15:32

While not waging in full-on to the Landrover debate (mine is currently 48 years old and with a little tlc should hopefully be useful once more) I do have a little to say about alternative fuel-sources.

People need to be aware of a difference in diesel alternatives.

Bio-diesel is being used as a generic term when it actually applies to a product created specifically as a vehicle fuel from plant product. This does cause issues that some people have correctly raised in this thread, such as 'could UK farmers grow enough to support UK vehicular use?' and 'how is shipping bio-diesel from countries that destroy rain-forest to grow it considered green?' ...

However, most people tend to use the term bio-diesel to cover the use of 'WVO' or Waste-Vegetable-Oil also.

WVO is taking the by-product of your local McDonalds/Chippy/Chinese, filtering it, pouring it into a pre-heater tank in your car and running on it.*

Now, most local fast food places pay to have their waste oil disposed of, so up to now, they seemed quite happy to give it away. Now however as alternative fuels are catching on, expect them to start asking for a little folding green-stuff in return.

As Red mentioned earlier, carbon off-setting your car is a good, admittedly not perfect but good, way to start going greener! www.carbonneutral.com is an organisation I use currently, others are available including the Woodland Trust I believe.

*Yes, your vehicle will need modifying to run WVO effectively whereas technically it should run on bio-diesel without fettling.

cyclist

27-10-2006, 08:29

dave k

27-10-2006, 09:06

very good points.
A green engine is useless if the fuel production is a problem.

If you modify your diesel engine with an ignition system you´d avoid particles. Particles in the exhaust gas are a result of the self-igniting principle of diesel engines.

To me the "greenest" engine would be the fuel cell (just guess why they are used in submarines now), followed by the gas turbine (Volvo does some interesting experiments) - both connected to electric wheel drives

Rover had a gas-turbine engine they trialled in an old P6 in the late seventies.. It didn't last very long though.. I think the fuel consumption was a bit much, and the torque was too high (it's rpm's are a lot higher than a normal engine)

cyclist

27-10-2006, 09:59

thousands of experiments have been made with gas turbines in lots of wheeled vehicles (cars, trucks, trains), the main problem was adaption to a mechanical drivetrain resulting in enormous fuel consumption. (Even the turbo-compound truck engine took a good deal of experimenting before Scania offered it - others have experimented as well and got a lot of temperature etc. problems. The trick was the adaption of turbine speed to crankshaft speed. No big deal in giant ship engines ...)

I guess thats why Volvo couples the turbine to a generator, that way the turbine runs in optimal range indepently from vehicle speed (it charges batteries when needed, everything else is electro drive).

Spikey DaPikey

15-11-2006, 14:44

How about this one ...... :rolleyes:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1988-LAND-ROVER-110-UNIQUE-EXPEDITION-SAFARI_W0QQitemZ330049035547QQ ihZ014QQcategoryZ29748QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem

cyclist

17-11-2006, 08:19

like most other 4x4´s a Landy has just one engine ....

If you want a real cross country vehicle with font, rear or all wheel drive try to get a Citroen 2CV Sahara www.2cv-net.de/speyer/sahara.htm

Since they are very rare and expensive you could also (with little effort) convert a standard 2CV to a twin engine version

bent-stick

16-12-2006, 18:11

How about one of these...

http://englishrussia.com/?p=381#more-381

:cool:

Swede

08-02-2007, 11:46

Here´s my car. Before: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Lokattan/valp3.jpg http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Lokattan/valp1.jpg
After: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Lokattan/valpenB060804.jpghttp://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y8/Lokattan/valpenA060804.jpg . This spring I´m going to change the engine because of engine failure. The B18 A engine is 64 hp and I´m going to put in a B20 with 82 hp, WOW! /Swede :D

havingagiraffe

08-02-2007, 11:58

Nice truck. :) Is it the one with portal axles and diff locks?

Swede

08-02-2007, 12:22

Hi! Thanks! This model has no portal axles and no diff locks. It´s the model after, Volvo TGB 11 (C303). Mine is only equipped with a diff brake in the rear axle which only work if I travel straight forward. The gear box has got four gears and the distribution gearbox: 2 wd (rear axle), 4 wd high, neutral (for the winch) and 4 wd low. Maximum recommended speed is 90 km/h (approx 56 miles/h). But then the steeringwheel has been shaking for a while since 70 km/h (43 miles/h) :D . This car is just for fun. I´ve got a Toyota Corolla Touring '88 which is also an 4x4. It´s necessary when you live in the woods ;) . /Swede :cool:

Spikey DaPikey

14-02-2007, 00:22

Me like that truck lots :)

firebreather

14-02-2007, 00:47

i own a suzuki vitara and drive it daily as well as go off roading. It always puts a smile on my face when it goes places where it should not be able to. The weak point in my zook is me. they are great off road buit limited in space for people and kit so i got some roof bars and a box .Problem solved Cheap as chips lol :lmao:
never underestimate the small guys !

Bhod

14-02-2007, 02:14

I'll give up my 34 year old ex-mil airportable Land Rover when you can prise the keys from my cold dead fingers.

Truck Utility, 1/2 Ton, Rover, Series III, 4x4, the original fly drive vehicle
:You_Rock_

saffy

14-02-2007, 08:55

I'll give up my 34 year old ex-mil airportable Land Rover when you can prise the keys from my cold dead fingers.

"cold dead fingers" ? more like "dead cold fingers" from pushing the thing up the M1 not so long ago :lmao:

the original fly drive vehicle

Yes, air transport is the only way your truck can currently move :p You should unbolt the floors like mine and pedal it around Freddy Flintstone style. Get that spare gearbox fitted!

Bhod

14-02-2007, 10:09

"cold dead fingers" ? more like "dead cold fingers" from pushing the thing up the M1 not so long ago :lmao: Git

Yes, air transport is the only way your truck can currently move :p You should unbolt the floors like mine and pedal it around Freddy Flintstone style. Get that spare gearbox fitted!Git, git :buttkick:

havingagiraffe

14-02-2007, 10:49

Hi! Thanks! This model has no portal axles and no diff locks. It´s the model after, Volvo TGB 11

That's the one I was thinking of. :o Even without portals and lockers it'd probably still eat my Defender for breakfast... :D .

Swede

14-02-2007, 18:45

havingagiraffe

15-02-2007, 18:38

@ havingagiraffe

Hmm, I think both our cars have advantages and disadvantages. One disadvantage is that it can roll over easily. Think military Hummer, they won´t. Mine is high with a metallic top wich give a high centre of gravity. One advantage is that the spare parts are easy to find. Many parts are from Volvo Duett and Volvo Amazon (both cars from the 60's). If I could afford, I would buy an old Land Rover (serie 1 or serie 2). /Swede ;)

Hummers are too wide and uneconomical for European or Scandinavian roads...but ideal for wide open, oil rich desert areas.... :rolleyes:

If you really want an old Land Rover, this one is still available...although it'd be a very long drive back to Sweden :) http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?t=13623 I've since swapped the Td5 I mentioned for a Tdi (and a pile of cash :) )but the 88"'s still here.

Swede

16-02-2007, 18:09

havingagiraffe

16-02-2007, 23:51

@ havingagiraffe

Right, my car is ideal for sneaking around in the forest were the Hummer just would stuck.

The Swedish military decided to purchase a 4x4 from South Africa:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/bil/story/0,2789,664261,00.html, Galten (the Boar).

I want one..... /Swede

Looks very tasty. :D http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=59688
I think :dunno: they used to have something similar based on the Bedford MK chassis with an inverted triangle shaped floorpan to divert the force of landmines if they exploded beneath the vehicle. I'm not a big fan of violence :240: , but I have to admit that military vehicles :BlueTeamE fascinate me.

cyclist

17-02-2007, 09:33

it´s just an Unimog (probably a bit bigger than a "Hummer"), without all that mine protection and military stuff it would be much nicer to drive.
Btw, a Swedish based company was among the first to convert Unimogs (Type 404 SH) to a certain miltary standard. Those pansarbils were exported to Ireland (UN Force for Kathanga/Congo conflict) and the Netherlands (Police)

The French also have nice vehicles.... Unic SUMB :D

bushman762

24-02-2007, 09:32

I think I may have discovered a mode that would suit me on my expeditions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEpj48CYFMY

Off road tyres , disc brakes, eco friendly, and good fun, ticks quite a few boxes!

What do you think?

:)

cyclist

27-02-2007, 08:28

great, an easy to tune (speed needs feet) eightfootdrive rather than a 4x4.

Matt Weir

27-02-2007, 08:32

havingagiraffe

27-02-2007, 11:26

What do you think?

:)

Looks like great fun. :D Surprised they haven't caught on...I bet they'd be quite cheap to produce on a big scale, and I bet dogs love pulling them. Perhaps there's an animal cruelty issue though...imagine chav kids racing these around town instead of mopeds... :eek:

schwuk

27-02-2007, 11:41

never underestimate the small guys !

For a while I was greatly enamoured of the SJ410 and it's ilk. Great fun. Then I truly discovered Land Rovers and my wallet has never recovered!

Currently free of my (or rather this particular) addiction, although my father-in-law has a late 69's Series IIA that needs an MOT and he's thinking of selling. Trying to resist 'adopting' it! :D

cyclist

05-03-2007, 08:55

just in case your LR or Vitara gets stuck while trying to get the firewood from the forest and you can´t afford a helicopter, a Pinzgauer or an Unimog (a couple of thousand with very low mileage went just recently into steel recycling) get one of those:
http://jeep-m201.chez-alice.fr/marmon.htm

twisted firestarter

16-03-2007, 02:38

I owned this 4x4 rig last year and had a bowtop shaped tarp over the payload. I ended up only driving it a couple of hundred miles so not too bad on the carbon front :rolleyes: Great vehicle for parking up off the beaten track

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/7338/p1010001mu6.th.jpg (http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1010001mu6.jpg)

Spikey DaPikey

16-03-2007, 11:25

Me like that truck :)

twisted firestarter

17-03-2007, 23:27

This beauty was on Ebay a couple of months ago...
http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/9255/251jpgfm3.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=251jpgfm3.jpg)

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/6869/931jpget5.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=931jpget5.jpg)

http://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8767/0c1jpgop3.th.jpg (http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=0c1jpgop3.jpg)
It is a Volvo C306 and the nicest 4x4 rig I have ever clapped eyes on. Shame my pockets weren't deep enough to buy it :cussing:

rik_uk3

18-03-2007, 00:10

A good friend of mine works for Landrover, and we were talking recently about what dream car we would buy if either of us won the lottery, I asked him "what would it be for a 4X4, Defender, disco, or Range Rover"

His reply was "A Toyota"

Landrover get 4X4's in, and basically destruction test them, the only ones they can't break apart from blowing them up are the Toyota's, they are just so well made all round :(

nobby

18-03-2007, 06:18

So can anyone give me a better idea of the mpg's of various 4x4's? (real life estimates, not the optimistic manufacturers ones :rolleyes: )

My 1964 2.25 diesel does 28mpg on a run towing a 3/4 ton boat. It cruises along at 50mph in overdrive and doe 55 flat out. Makes it difficult to get caught for speeding although I did get done for 38 in a 30 limit when the speedo said 25. There is an adjustable friction drive and it was loose. I check it regularly nowadays.
For local journeys I don't know what the mpg is. Like you I live in a city and use bus, bicycle and foot. I've never thought that it can be a good idea to use an engine for short distances. It can't have a chance to get to a proper working temperature.
As for Landy reliability: well, it just depends how well you look after it. It is basically a post war agricultural design and people expected to do there own maintenance in those days. Oil changes and grease points shouldn't be beyond anyone and they are good for access when working on them. There is also an excellent support group: the 110, 90 and Series 3 club.
Isn't all the eco friendly stuff tedious?

cyclist

18-03-2007, 10:45

It is a Volvo C306 and the nicest 4x4 rig I have ever clapped eyes on. Shame my pockets weren't deep enough to buy it :cussing:

no it´s not a 4x4 - it got 2 more wheels.

A similiar vehicle is made in .... was it Austria, no wait a moment, that was some time ago, now it´s made in .... Pommieland :) :D : the Pinzgauer www.pinzgauer.uk.com

"A Landrover in Australia is as useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle"

Swede

18-03-2007, 12:25

no it´s not a 4x4 - it got 2 more wheels.

A similiar vehicle is made in .... was it Austria, no wait a moment, that was some time ago, now it´s made in .... Pommieland :) :D : the Pinzgauer www.pinzgauer.uk.com

"A Landrover in Australia is as useless as an ashtray on a motorcycle"

Right, it´s a 3x6! Three axles and six wheels driven by the three axles. Question: an ordinary car (rwd and fwd), how would it look (XxX)? /Swede

Martyn

18-03-2007, 14:37

Right, it´s a 3x6! Three axles and six wheels driven by the three axles. Question: an ordinary car (rwd and fwd), how would it look (XxX)? /Swede

Isn't it simply "number of wheels x number of driven wheels"?

So that vehicle would be a 6x6, a defender would be a 4x4 and a regular car would be a 4x2 - no?

Martyn

18-03-2007, 14:57

What about this beast...

http://www.unicat.net/img/Rallye-Fahrzeug-560.jpg

twisted firestarter

19-03-2007, 08:35

no it´s not a 4x4 - it got 2 more wheels.

You're quite right, I hadn't spotted the extra wheels ;)

paulcd

19-03-2007, 09:22

The ultimate vehicle for me would have to be a VW T25. I have the 2wd version, but 4wd are available. They did still make them in South Africa until this century, but I don't know if they were 2wd or 4wd. Also they seemed only to make the petrol version. For this century, we need a turbo diesel like mine that can run on veg oil.

If I felt I could easily convert a petrol to diesel (its more than just changing the engine) AND they were 4wd, I would travel to SA and drive one back...it should be poss to make it last a lifetime. Anybody with the knowledge and wanting an adventure, lets talk!

I also have a landy short wheel series 3 for my woodland work, but could'nt imagine a nights sleep in it in a town like I do in my camper....+ when I turn up late at bushcraft site, the bed is already made!

cyclist

19-03-2007, 12:24

What about this beast...

http://www.unicat.net/img/Rallye-Fahrzeug-560.jpg

as used by thousands of soldiers ....

don´t need it on flat terrain as shown on the pic, others ( www.rockymountainmoggers.com ) may have different priorities ;)

if you ever get stuck with one of those you´ll have a really hard time to get out - no worry, in most cases the driver´s limitations won´t meet the vehicle´s

ever thought about spare parts pricing?
ever worked on one?

nobby

19-03-2007, 13:55

I also have a landy short wheel series 3 for my woodland work, but could'nt imagine a nights sleep in it in a town like I do in my camper...!

Park overnight in industrial estates; nobody gives it a second look unil you pop out in your pj's in the morning and it's too late then.
:0)

paulcd

19-03-2007, 14:39

I'm afraid I only wear a loin cloth in bed to complete the experience...that would raise a few eyebrows.

Spikey DaPikey

19-03-2007, 23:16

I quite fancy one of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4X4-ROAD-LEGAL-FARM-QUAD_W0QQitemZ200089102090QQca tegoryZ18449QQssPageNameZWDVWQ QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) but i'll need a lotto win first :o

cyclist

20-03-2007, 08:50

The ultimate vehicle for me would have to be a VW T25. I have the 2wd version, but 4wd are available. They did still make them in South Africa until this century,

2003

but I don't know if they were 2wd or 4wd.

AFAIK the 4x4 are all made in Austria by SDP - possible that some ckd/skd sets were send down

Also they seemed only to make the petrol version.

I´m not sure, in the last century they fitted Ford V6 engines to get the power for towing boat trailers

For this century, we need a turbo diesel like mine that can run on veg oil.

If I felt I could easily convert a petrol to diesel (its more than just changing the engine) AND they were 4wd,

it´s not an impossible task - otherwise SDP couldn´t have done it ;)

I would travel to SA and drive one back...it should be poss to make it last a lifetime. Anybody with the knowledge and wanting an adventure, lets talk!

RSA now is becomming quite expensive - the soccer world championships ....
Driving it back?
Which way?
Are you sure?
Been lately on that continent?
Putting it in a container and shipping it to your place wouldbe a lot cheaper and far less dangero... adventure
Oh yes, an adventure. I like that. Did it a couple of years ago. Alexandria to Cape Town over land, no single mile in an aircraft.

I also have a landy short wheel series 3 for my woodland work, but could'nt imagine a nights sleep in it in a town like I do in my camper....+ when I turn up late at bushcraft site, the bed is already made!

I can´t see why it should be impossible to get some sleep in a landy. Tour operators do it succesfully - just mount a tent on top of it www.britz.co.za

havingagiraffe

20-03-2007, 15:07

I quite fancy one of THESE (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4X4-ROAD-LEGAL-FARM-QUAD_W0QQitemZ200089102090QQca tegoryZ18449QQssPageNameZWDVWQ QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) but i'll need a lotto win first :o

I see it comes in DPM...genius... :D

havingagiraffe

20-03-2007, 15:08

I'm afraid I only wear a loin cloth in bed to complete the experience...that would raise a few eyebrows.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

havingagiraffe

20-03-2007, 15:16

I can´t see why it should be impossible to get some sleep in a landy. Tour operators do it succesfully - just mount a tent on top of it www.britz.co.za

Might be tricky inside a short wheelbase though... :)

Here's me (with funny coloured hair) and havingagiraffe trying not to laugh while proving that, contrary to popular belief, there's actually plenty of legroom in the back of a 90. :lmao:
http://tinypic.com/huh7bk.jpg

cyclist

21-03-2007, 08:20

the 110 landies in that co.za link have roof tents - no reason why those tents shouldnt fit a 90
You could also customize a 90: you don´t need the seats while sleeping etc.
An other way would be a custom fit "container" ....
...."coloured" hair for sure wouldn´t be a problem while short hair save a lot of water :D

You might get some ideas from this one www.tawayama.com/gear/trucks.html

cyclist

22-03-2007, 14:13

The ultimate vehicle for me would have to be a VW T25. .....

..... convert a petrol to diesel (its more than just changing the engine) AND they were 4wd, I would travel to SA and drive one back...it should be poss to make it last a lifetime.

that´s a good one. A rear engined VW T25 last a lifetime :D :lmao:

Who´s life?
lifetime of a human ~ 75years?
average life of a vehicle ~ 25years?
the rest of your life ??years?
the calculated rest of the VW´s life ~ 2years?

I´d go and get an old Landrover (pref. a lightweight), take some spare parts such as axles, a long-lwb chassis (as in the Tawayama story) and be happy.
Yes, there have been lwb lightweights - made by Santana in Spain
And no, I wouldn´t make a 6x6 as they use in Australia (imagine: 2 prop shafts from the transfer case to the rear :rolleyes: ) nor would I take a half track as in service in Oman.
Just a Landy as simple as possible: a lightweight .....