Which weapon to buy for....Ptarmigan hunt

[Abbe Osram]

Hi Guys
I finished my hunting license now and like to buy my first weapon. I am going to hunt Ptarmigan and thought to buy a .22 Brno 452 Lux with a 3-9 + 40 Binocular.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/Abbe/img_2abe72a8.jpg

Do you think that this a good choice for me? Or do you have better weapon tips for me? What do I have to look for so they dont pull me over the table selling me a bad binocular. How do I judge a Binocular?

Thanks for any help and tips
cheers
Abbe

[Viking]

There was a program on tv not long ago about hunting ptarmigan both in the summer and winter. There was alot about the calibre of the weapon and wich weapon to use and the best ways to hunt ptarmigan and so on. I think it´s on channel 4 or 4+ so it willl probably come again. Ther might be some good tips for you there.

[ilovemybed]

You can't go wrong with BRNO. Good dependable bits of kit. However, there's a lot to do with personal preference. Go to the shop and ask to see/try a whole bunch of rifles, even ones way over your budget. This will give you a good idea of what you like and don't like. Then they will be able to recommend a rifle that suits your needs and fits your budget. There's no point in setting your heart on a rifle that looks good on paper then you can't reach the safety catch in the field! Consider how you are going to mount a sling, if you want one.

I would suggest the Scope more important to get right. There are a few important things to consider:

First is the amount of light that comes through the scope, which will be a serious consideration in low light conditions. This can be tested by looking down the scope with your eye about a metre from the lens. You will see the image as a small bright area in the middle of darkness. The larger this area, the more light is coming through. Ideally you want this to be at least as big as the pupil in your eye, otherwise the scope is limiting the light reaching your eye. In reality, there will probably have to be a bit of a compromise. The amount of light is usually in proportion to the size of the objective lens, and you want at least 40mm, probably 50mm if you're in woodland or shooting in low light.

Second is the ability to adjust sights in the field. For this you probably want a large wheel to adjust the elevation, that you can use easily wearing a glove. A subsonic .22 will fall around 25 cm between 50 and 100m so it is important to get this right. You should also be able to adjust the zoom easily with a glove on.

Third, I would consider the picture when you look down the sight - the "reticule" or cross-hairs. This can come in various types and you can even get different ones in the same model of scope. Again, go to a shop and see which one you prefer. I don't recommend you get one with a dot in the middle - it obscures your target. Better to get one that has a box or ring around the centre of the sight that you can put your target in.

Top quality brands are Leupold, Zeiss, Swarovski.
Dependable cheaper brands are Simmons, Tasco, Bushnell, Nikko-Sterling.

There has always been rivalry between classic European brands and the clever modern Japanese, the same as Cameras.

I had a Simmons White Tail Classic, which was good but it wasn't easy to adjust elevation on my model. They run between 100 and 200 pounds so are affordable.

If you buy one with zoom, get one with "Parralax". This means it will stay in focus when you change zoom, and the "zero" should not change either. I don;t tend to find that zoom is all that important but again it's all about preference and technique.

EDIT: Scope mounts are very important. Don't buy cheap ones!


Hope that's useful. Happy shooting. :D

Oh, one more tip: When shooting, don't forget to BREATHE! ;)

[R-J]

dont know about the calibre to use, but i will say a good scope will make the difference. i've got a cheap mauser (6.5X55mm) but its got a lovley swarovski scope and a pair of swarovski bino's. worth the money, for sure.

when i was at collage i had a cheap pair of bino's and the lecutuer had a pair of swarovski's. the difference was shocking! we (the class) counted anywhere between 5-15 red deer on the hill through our varying degree of optics. when he handed us his pair to look through there were 30, i kid you not. it was crystal clear, i'd advise getting good quality optics, the best you can afford.

hope that helps,

rob

ps, get quality mounts! no point having a top scope if it moves about after every shot. i borrowed a 30-06 with dodgy mounts on a range once - thought i couldnt shoot and nearly cried, lol! rounds were every where, some even missed a fig' 11 target, lmao!

i've got swarovski snap off mounts on my M98 and they're good.

[Doc]

I guess hunting ptarmigan is different in Scandinavia - in the UK game birds are shot with shotguns, not rifles.

If I was buying a sporting .22LR I'd buy a Sako Finnfire if I had enough cash, and a BRNO if I wanted something cheaper. Just my opinion though, and I've only fired maybe half a dozen .22 rifles. Here in the UK the .17 calibres are gaining popularity - flatter trajectory than a .22LR, though the ammunition is more expensive.

Swarovski, Zeiss and Leica make the best binoculars. Mine are German Army surplus 8x30 by Steiner. Steiner's budget range are extremely good - about £100. Russian optics are also very good, if a bit heavy and unstylish. Older East German Zeiss (Jena) can be still good if in good condition.

Checking binoculars: look at something straight like a fence and check it still looks straight at the edge of the field of vision. cheaper binos distort.

Look at a high contrast object - a TV aerial or pylon against a bright sky. Look for false colour at the edges of the object.

Make sure you aren't getting double vision when you look through them - dropping binoculars can cause this.

[Abbe Osram]

Hi Guys,
thank you all for helping me out all the info was very very good and I will take this knowledge with me into the shop testing and checking before I commit myself.
While asking the shop keeper about the mount, he said that this is not so important on a .22 because there is no recoil to talk about.

How can I check the mount if its a good one?

We have it here up to minus 35 Celsius when I am out hunting the birds. The tip about checking how I can use the scope using gloves was very good. :o :o I didn’t think about it at all....I am ashamed... :o :o

cheers
Abbe

[ilovemybed]

Argh..... I was going to write another essay but I just found this website and the FAQ section is exactly what you need.

http://cz452.com/

I wouldn't believe the shopkeeper who says mounts don't matter on a .22. He will be talking about "scope creep" and it's true that this is negligible. However, you never know when the rifle might get a knock or a bump. Why bother buying a nice set of kit then skimping on such an integral part? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link...

If you feel you might like to shoot with the iron sights on the rifle, you can get scope mounts that have a gap you can see through so you don't have to remove the scope to do it.

Another consideration is the height of the scope mounts. If you generally shoot standing or kneeling I reckon you'll be more comfortable with high mounts, whereas if you prefer shooting lying down you're better of with relatively low ones. A good shop will let you try out the mounts on the rifle you want to see what you like the feel of.

Beyond the scope information I'd point you to the part about the barrel rubbing on the stock. Check the actual rifle you're going to buy by sliding a thin piece of paper between the stock and the barrel all the way up the rifle. If it gets caught, you'll have to sand that area down until there is no contact (so better to find a rifle where this doesn't happen in the first place!)

Looking at the accessories available, I'd highly recommend you get a bore guide, and allan (hex) key bedding bolts like in that website's "Action Screws" section. These will make cleaning much easier, and you'll appreciate the hex keys when you take the action out of the stock every time you have to get in there to mop up excess water! Don't leave the action out too long if this happens or the stock may warp as it dries. Just wipe out the excess water, wipe the action down with an oily rag and re-mount it. Then, when the stock's fully dried out take the action out again and wipe out with a dry cloth to remove as much oil as possible - you don't want to lubricate your bedding.

Obviously, you don't have to buy them from him, I just put the site up for illustration. I assume they're available elsewhere and you might find a local supplier.

Ooops- looks like it is another essay! :p

Cheers,
Neil

[RovingArcher]

We hunt them here with shotgun as well, but I wanted to add and you may already know this, but in very cold temperatures, you shouldn't use gun oil to lubricate the weapon. I've seen rifles lock up tight because the lubricant froze up. You may also want to contact the different companies that manufacture the riflescopes to see how they hold up in extreme cold. It has been years since this was shared with me and things change, but in very cold weather, iron sights are best, so a good set of peep through scope rings would be ideal if the scope fails for any reason.

[Abbe Osram]

Thanks a lot for all the help!
I had to live with the fact that I dont have so much money and have to go for a cheaper scope.

Now, I am going to buy a Brno CZ 452 Lyx with a Bushnell 3-9X40 scope!

I hope that will be a good start for the money.

Thanks for all the help again I got really good tips from you guys.

cheers
Abbe

[leon-1]

Thanks a lot for all the help!
I had to live with the fact that I dont have so much money and have to go for a cheaper scope.

Now, I am going to buy a Brno CZ 452 Lyx with a Bushnell 3-9X40 scope!

I hope that will be a good start for the money.

Thanks for all the help again I got really good tips from you guys.

cheers
Abbe

Abbe, if that is the trophy scope I will vouch for it as being very good indeed, Bushnell are cheaper than some of the others, but they are still good quality.

[Carcajou Garou]

The rifle shown is a good rifle and will be more accurate than you can shoot for a long time comming, unless there is something inherantly out of alingnment with it. Like many have said get good mounts for the scope that being said shoot it a lot, at all hunting distances that you will encounter. I use a single shot "Cooey" .22lr that has put almost as much meat on that table as my "deer/moose" rifle (more meat on a deer or moose then a hare, grouse) over the years but I have shot it a lot 50,000+. I now have put in peep sights my eyes are getting older and need help. Next will be a scope I guess.
just a tought

[Doc]

It is a good choice, Abbe. The Czechs make fine rifles and the BRNO is a well respected marque. They also last well - my father in law used one for decades.

I am sure you will not be disappointed - let's hope we all dine well on wild game/wildfowl this season!

[Hoodoo]

I own that rifle and it's excellent. Make sure to get the short clip as it's easier for carrying in the field. The 10 shot clip can get in the way.

[Abbe Osram]

Thank you all,
I feel quite good and safe now with all your help.
Lets hope we all get some nice hunting this year.
yours
Abbe

[BlueTrain]

I have a CZ in 6.5x55, which I adore. All the money went for the rifle, not much left for anything else. I especially like the Bavarian style stock. The centerfire rifles have a vertical ridge on either side of the magazine (can't think of another way to describe it) to prevent the bullets being deformed by slamming into the front of the box during recoil, not that a 6.5 has much.

My dealer and I have been looking for an excuse to order a 9.3x62 but so far I have resisted. Like I said, I used up all my money on the first one. All the same, I'm sure I'm the only one on the block that has one.

[arctic hobo]

I would recommend being able to use the iron sights as well as the scope - in my experience, ptarmigan are pretty dumb birds, and you can get very close before they are worried. Especially in the mating season, as of course being ground-nesting they are often sitting on a nest you can't see, but are very anxious not to leave. Of course, the problem is finding the buggers!! So I'd very much agree with people who recommend high quality binoculars.
For fun, here's a photo I took this year of ptarmigan. I was about ten feet away, standing up. There are four birds in this photo:
http://img271.imageshack.us/img271/9601/ripa7ve.jpg


:D :D

[Carcajou Garou]

Where we hunt (.22lr) grouse, ptarmigan, partridge they are way to close to use scopes or binoculars plain iron sights or peeps are the mainstay unless you use a shotgun then the bead. We mostly watch for small odd movements or patterns (don't laugh) that look like our prey, listen for rustling of the dryer leaves and look carfully, enjoy the walk, look for small gravel bed disturbances (gizzard grinding) and think like partridge(?) I mostly use a .22lr single shot Cooey now with a peeps, it keeps me and mine well fed. Always bring a pot, flour makings for dumplings/bannock, or rice, onions, salt&pepper and Tobasco :) :D
just a thought

[Celt_Ginger]

Hi.
The Brno is a perfectly servicable rifle. as is the bushnel scope. Consider though what time of day (or night) that you will be shooting. At dawn and dusk, you may want to have a scope with a large objective (front) lens. this will help to gether in as much light at possible. i would go for at least a 50mm front lens. also try to have "sniper turrets" for adjusting the windage and elevation. you don't want to have to use a coin or screwdriver to make the adjustments. Buy the best optics you can afford. Nikko strling also make very good optics at value for money prices. If I could afford it, my ideal would be a Sako Finfire(the new one with the interchangable barrels in different calabres) with a Zeiss scope, but thats wishful thinking.

[Ogri the trog]

Abbe,
You won't be disapointed with the Brno. I have an old Mk4 and it's a real "tack driver" as our American friends call it. Take the time to find out which make of ammunition it prefers as there can be some big differences. Does your licence allow hollow point ammunition? If it does, then it might be worth doing a search for "Paco Kelly Nastinose" tool - it opens up the HP to allow faster energy transfer to your prey. A sound moderator is also useful in not disturbing too many other things, neighbors included.

All the best

Ogri the trog

[Kane]

Abbe,
What's involved in getting your hunting licence? Also once you have your hunting licence do you then need a licence to buy the rifle?

Kane

[Abbe Osram]

Hi Guys,
I got the rifle and some winchester laser ammo, which the hunters here tell me is the best. I have no idea so I am quite humble and learning.

Ogri I have a full hunting license and can have any kind of ammo I wish but I am lacking experience to understand your question fully, could you please explain it to me in a simple way. :o

Kane I started with my swedish hunting license last fall. To get the license you will have to do one or two theoretical tests. First the biggest test, the base course which all have to do and if you want to hunt moose, bear or wolf you will have to do a second high game theorectical license too. I did both. After I was clear with my theory I was allowed to do the practical hunting test. They consist of 3 parts. First the weapon safty and small caliber shooting. You are shooting on a 80 meter target with a .22 rifle and have to hit the target in an area of 17 cm all 4 bullets have to be in the area. Then you are allowed to go to the shotgun tests. There you have to go through a forest with animals placed out, you will have to climb over hinders in the forest and tell the instructor if you would have shot the animal or if you consider it to be to far away. After that you will have to shoot two shot on a running ground target (rabbit) from left to right and right to left. If you miss you fail, after that you have to shoot 6 times on flying target (clay dove) and have to hit it 4 times to pass the test.
Now if you want to hunt high game you go over to the 9mm rifle tests shooting an moose on a distance of 80 meters standing and running left and right. You will have to hit the vital area with all bullets. If you miss one time you will have to make the test again.
I still have to do that test but I thought to start hunting birds first anyhow before I start with the moose hunting group.
To get a weapon you go to the shop and buy one. They fill out the papers for the police and than you carry these papers to the police, you will have to buy a weapon safe too and show the police your hunting licensens than you get the ok from the police in one week. With that paper you pick up the weapon from the shop.

cheers
Abbe

[Ogri the trog]

Hi Guys, Ogri I have a full hunting license and can have any kind of ammo I wish but I am lacking experience to understand your question fully, could you please explain it to me in a simple way. :o

Abbe

No problemo Buddy,
There are two types of ammunition, round nose and hollow point.
Round nose is very accurate and is used (in UK anyway) mainly for target work. The bullet is shaped like a "U".
The hollow point ammunition is more often used for vermin shooting as it tends to result in a cleaner kill. The "hollow" which is cast into the tip of the bullet helps it to expand as it enters the prey (similar to the old idea of a "dum-dum" bullet). As clarification, in the UK you must be licenced to hold hollow point (sometimes called "expanding") ammunition. The bullet is basically the same "U" shape but has a hole down the end of it.
The Paco tool allows the user to accurately resize the hollow point to a larger size meaning that the bullet mushrooms even faster.

I know that it's difficult to explain through text only so if you have a look at www.rimfirecentral.com there will be many topics discussed there, as well as information on the Nastinose tool. Brno rifles are under the CZ heading in the discussion forums.

As to finding which ammunition your rifle likes best, its a painfully slow business of buying 50 or 100 rounds from one manufacturer and shooting them at a target range. Then clean the barrel and try another 50/100 from another manufacturer. When you have compared several makers offerings, you can see which manufaturers ammunition suits your rifle by the spread on the paper targets.

I hope that went a little way to clarifying the situation but if not then I'll try to answer any more questions that might come up.

Shoot safe, shoot straight, and have fun.

Ogri the trog

[Abbe Osram]

Thanks mate, I understand now. Will the hollow point ammo not destreu too much meat? And if I am shooting a bird will it not destreu the entire bird? Sorry for asking I dont have any experience with game hunting yet, only fired at paper targets so far.

-And thanks a lot for the link I bookmarked it and will check out the CZ forum.

cheers
Abbe

[Kane]

That sounds like a comprehensive set of shooting tests mate, well done for passing :)

Kane

[Ogri the trog]

Abbe,
It does result in a wider wound channel, but also a shorter one. For some prey, rats for example - you can shoot a hole right through them and they run off, but get them with a hollow point and it'll be curtains!
I don't shoot many birds, crows and magpies excepted, I mainly go for rabbits - where there is not too much meat destruction. But saying this, I always go for a head shot, I'm an airgunner also, so I'm used to getting the range down to where I'm confident of placing the shot within a small kill-zone, though the corvids are a very challenging prey.

It won't be too long until you are looking for smaller targets to hone your skills. I shoot apples, oranges, small potatos. Then down in size to wall nuts, hazel nuts, even paint ball pellets. Set various ones up at ranges from a few steps away, out to 100 meters and shoot them at random. That way you'll learn to gauge the range without having to "dial the scope" and you'll be having fun which will maintain your interest. One of the favourite challenges I've heard of is to shoot through a Polo mint without breaking it :eek: Never done it myself but I keep trying.

All the best

Ogri the trog

[Ruckus]

they really should test people here more. perhaps we wouldnt have so many accidents here.

[Abbe Osram]

Ogri I tried the Polo mint test...100 meter and never broke it! :D :D :D
Ruckus I dont know how it is in your country but we are trained very hard for safty. In all my practical tests is the safty test running at the same time. It starts when I pick up the weapon to start with one of the live tests. If I point at one time the rifle to a person I am out of the test. Then I will have to test with the finger and look if there is a bullet in the camber, then I can start walking etc etc. When climbing over a hinder I unload the shotgun put the shotgun over the fence go myself over the fence load the shotgun check with the thump the saftypin etc etc. If I do wrong a single time I am out of the tests and have to start again. There are a lot of rules too how to transport a rifle in a car etc. Still we have accidents but they are done mostly from old granddads which are hunting already for 50 years and got their rifles in a time where it was free to hunt without a license. They are often very careless.

cheers
Abbe

[Abbe Osram]

Ogri: I checked now my bullet a bit better and I believe I got what you where asking.

They are called Winchester Laser 50 22 Long Rifle Hollow Point.
Are they the type you where talking about?

cheers
Abbe

[Ogri the trog]

Ogri: I checked now my bullet a bit better and I believe I got what you where asking.

They are called Winchester Laser 50 22 Long Rifle Hollow Point.
Are they the type you where talking about?

cheers
Abbe

Abbe,
I'm having trouble putting your description into a search at the moment, but it sounds as though you have exactly what I was on about. Incidently, my Brno mk4 prefers the "Winchester Super X Subsonic" also a hollow point round.

ATB

Ogri the trog

[maximus otter]

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/images/22hv_table.gif

Table 1. Trajectory of a typical 22 Long Rifle high velocity cartridge.

From looking at the table, it might surprise you to see the bullet starting off 1.5" below the line of sight, but remember that the scope is 1.5" above the center line of the rifle bore. At about 12 yards, the bullet crosses into the bottom of our 1" circle, and at 25 yards is .2" above the circle center. When the bullet reaches 40 yards it is at the top of the circle, and at about 67 yards the bullet falls out the bottom of the circle. Way out at 100 yards, the bullet is about 4 3/4" low. Figure 1 shows the trajectory.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/images/22hv_plot.gif

Figure 1. Trajectory plot for 22 Long Rifle high velocity load.

We can do the same thing for Federal's subsonic target load. Match shooters favor this load because the turbulence that accompanies transitioning through the sound barrier is absent.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/images/22_subsonic_table.gif

Table 2. Trajectory of a 22 Long Rifle subsonic cartridge.

The slightly lower velocity shifts the midpoint trajectory and circle crossing points closer to the muzzle: 35 yards at circle top, about 57 yards at circle bottom, and .32 high at 25 yards. At 100 yards, the load is down more than 7 inches. The 25 yard distance is actually higher than that of the high velocity load in order to compensate for the lower velocity. And the range within which a dead on hold is good goes from 54 yards with the high velocity load to about 49 yards with the target fodder. At 100 yards the high velocity load is down by about 4 3/4", while the target ammo drops 7".

These figures will be close for most rifles (including 10/22 rifles) shooting high velocity and subsonic loads. Federals velocity data was obtained with a 24" test barrel. Velocity for the 22 Long Rifle peaks with barrel lengths of about 20 inches, and actually drops off with longer or shorter barrels. Test barrels usually have chambers cut to minimum dimensions, which tend to produce slightly higher velocities than those found in sporting or even target arms. These two factors work against each other for Federal's setup, but may not entirely offset each other. The difference between these calculated trajectories and those obtained with your rifle will, however, be fairly small.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/images/22subsonic_plot.gif

Figure 2. Trajectory plot for 22 Long Rifle subsonic load.

The tables above also contain drift data calculated for a 15 mph wind crossing the bullet path from the left at 90 degrees. The data also shows the lead necessary to hit a target moving from right to left at 10 mph. Since the target is moving into the wind, the bullet path first leads the target, then falls behind it as distance increases. Under these conditions, it takes a lead of almost 4 feet to hit the target at 100 yards.

http://www.gunsmoke.com/scot/guns/1022/22ballistics.html

maximus otter

[Ruckus]

Ruckus[/B] I dont know how it is in your country but we are trained very hard for safty. In all my practical tests is the safty test running at the same time. It starts when I pick up the weapon to start with one of the live tests. If I point at one time the rifle to a person I am out of the test. Then I will have to test with the finger and look if there is a bullet in the camber, then I can start walking etc etc. When climbing over a hinder I unload the shotgun put the shotgun over the fence go myself over the fence load the shotgun check with the thump the saftypin etc etc. If I do wrong a single time I am out of the tests and have to start again. There are a lot of rules too how to transport a rifle in a car etc. Still we have accidents but they are done mostly from old granddads which are hunting already for 50 years and got their rifles in a time where it was free to hunt without a license. They are often very careless.

cheers
Abbe

yeah we need that. All i had to do was go down to my local gun store during a work lunch time, bought a shotgun and went back to work. that was it.

[Doc]

There is a lot of discussion in the UK about whether we should have mandatory safety/proficiency tests.

At present there are voluntary schemes (Deer stalking certificate and BASC Safe Shot).

Hunting accidents in the UK are almost unknown - although there was a recent lamping fatality.

[elma]

go for a 300 winchester magnum, their tougth little buggers if your going to hit them hit them good :D