View Full Version : Cheap fuel
Badger90
02-05-2011, 22:59
Most supermarkets are doing cheap veg oil at the mo, sainsbury's have 3l @ just under £3 which works out at 97p a litre. I bought 30 litres at the weekend for apprx £28 ( 10 x 3l bottles ) and chucked em in the Landy at the car park.
For those that run Landy's or other vehicles with the older style diesels, well worth the cost saving ;):D
nice one, i wonder if my Grand Vitara could run on it ?
Badger90
02-05-2011, 23:04
No idea, but why would it be illegal?
mountainm
02-05-2011, 23:05
Be careful, I'm not sure that's legal - if it's used as fuel (no matter what it is) I think it needs to be taxed as fuel...
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_n fpb=true&_pageLabel=pageExcise_ShowCont ent&id=HMCE_PROD1_024771&propertyType=document#P10_1033
Badger90
02-05-2011, 23:11
There is a legal limit of 2500 litres allowed per annum, quick google search ;)
On a 70 litre fuel tank that's....um.....apprx 35 full tanks :)
Although i have no idea how on earth the HMRC monitor it.....
mikeybear
02-05-2011, 23:16
Can't help but think that you've burnt the evidence though:lmao::lmao::lmao:
MB
Badger90
02-05-2011, 23:19
4.2.1 Exempt producers/users
If you have produced or used less than 2,500 litres of:
any biofuel, or
any other fuel substitute or additive
within the last 12 months, and/or expect to produce or use less than 2,500 litres in the next 12 months, you are an exempt producer and do not need to register with us and account for duty. However, there are simple record keeping requirements, which are described in paragraph 4.9.1.
Production includes the manufacture or processing of road fuel, and the setting aside of any product that has not been charged with duty, with the intention of using it as road fuel.
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_n fpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000205&propertyType=document#P105_867 0
That's that wrapped up :D
santaman2000
02-05-2011, 23:55
No idea, but why would it be illegal?
I cain't speak for the UK specificly but generally fuel taxes are used to build and maintain roadways. If you use an untaxed fuel (legally or otherwise) on a public street you would be getting the benefits without paying your share.
santaman2000
03-05-2011, 00:01
I've been crunching the numbers (converting currency and volumes) and 97p per liter comes up about 20% more expensive than real diesel over here. How much is diesel there?
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, ,,,,,,,,Unleaded,,,,,,Diesel,, ,,, LRP ,,,Superunleaded,,,,LPG
The Highest price in this area: 139.90p,,, 145.90p,,, n/a,, 148.90p,,, 78.90p
The Average price in this area: 137.16p,,, 142.63p,,, n/a,, 144.06p,,, 78.90p
The Lowest price in this area: 134.50p,,, 138.90p,,, n/a,, 137.90p,,, 78.90p
Thats per liter around my post code, from petrolprices.com
Yup ... £1.40 a litre is average now.
You're allowed 2,500 litres tax free, as someone has already pointed out.
Consensus is to keep good records of what has gone in tax free so you can prove to tax man you only started doing it a week ago ... ;-)
For those that run Landy's or other vehicles with the older style diesels, well worth the cost saving ;):D
So how many mpg do you get on the stuff?
Badger90
03-05-2011, 10:57
So how many mpg do you get on the stuff?
Same as diesel, about 23mpg
MartiniDave
03-05-2011, 11:56
23!!! Yipes!! I hope that's a typo!!! I get more like 32 mpg from my 200TDi 90.
Dave
Bushwhacker
03-05-2011, 11:59
I might be wrong, but I'm sure you need a Bosch fuel pump because the Lucas' go wrong.
Same as diesel, about 23mpg
Very interesting that the consumption is about the same. Do the vehicle/engine manufacturers have anything to say about using this kind of fuel? I'd be a bit concerned about the loss of additives but I don't know what they put in Diesel. I know there are additives in petrols which the engines would, er, miss if fed on other fuels.
Do you think I could run my Optimus on the stuff? :)
trekkingnut
03-05-2011, 12:13
a friend of mine is an engineer and always collects the chip oil from his local chippy to run his vw estate tdi and it works a treat! car always smells ready to eat as well...
23!!! Yipes!! I hope that's a typo!!! I get more like 32 mpg from my 200TDi 90.
Yeah, it did seem a bit thirsty. I just got 29.2mpg on a thousand mile run in my Jeep. Oh, and it's a 4.7 litre V8 petrol. Mind you I've practiced driving for economy quite a bit. My sister gets about 15mpg from the same vehicle and I have a business colleague who's just sold hers (same model as mine) because she couldn't get more than about NINE!!!
Badger90
03-05-2011, 13:32
23 opps, i was getting that on my 19J, it is nearer 30mpg, but tbh i don't monitor it that much and i haven't noticed a change in fuel consumption.
The 19J engines use the CAV lucas pump which isn't hardy enough for running the thicker oil, whereas the Bosch ones on 200Tdi's are alot better suited.
As for additives etc, a regular change of fuel filter ( the oil drags the crap from the tank and lines through more ) and new glow plugs every 6 months works for me.
I will add that i have in the past run 100% veg oil but now i usually mix a 70/30 oil/diesel and run it like that, smells pretty dire but does the job :D
Badger90
03-05-2011, 13:38
Do you think I could run my Optimus on the stuff? :)
I couldn't say, most Landy engines are simple ( pre TD5's etc ) so it's kept simple. A diesel compress's the fuel/air mixture to produce a combustion and with these engines you have a tank>lift pump>filter>injection pump> cylinder with no electric do dahs to upset it, it's a mechanical network. Other than the starter motor, i have 2 wires on my engine, 1 is the temp sensor for the water and the other is the stop solenoid cable on the injection pump ( nearly forgot the oil level cable as well , so thats 3 ) and if i really wanted, i could remove all 3 and still run the engine.
Newer engines have all sorts of electrics to monitor and produce better mpg and carbon emissions and to make them ' better ' at what they do, but the downside is your limited in what you can do with it ;)
mrcharly
03-05-2011, 15:17
The 19J engines use the CAV lucas pump which isn't hardy enough for running the thicker oil, whereas the Bosch ones on 200Tdi's are alot better suited.
It isn't a question of 'hardy', it's the design. The Lucas pump uses the fuel as a lubricant on its main shaft, and neither SVO or 100% biodiesel are thin enough to work until they warm up.
If you want simple, I have a 2-pot Lister on a narrowboat. In theory it can be hand-cranked.
MartiniDave
03-05-2011, 16:09
Ooooh! 2 pot lister, lovely thing to listen to me thinks.
Badger90
03-05-2011, 16:31
It isn't a question of 'hardy', it's the design. The Lucas pump uses the fuel as a lubricant on its main shaft, and neither SVO or 100% biodiesel are thin enough to work until they warm up.
If you want simple, I have a 2-pot Lister on a narrowboat. In theory it can be hand-cranked.
It shall be never said that i don't learn something new everyday :D
Badger90
03-05-2011, 16:39
It can be said that this is a damn fine idea, i've just ordered 40litres of Veg oil from Tesco direct, to be delivered on friday, the cost is slightly more than 97p a litre but it beats driving to the local supermarket to get it :D
just be careful wit ha 200TDi as it is a direct injection so no swirl pots to mix the fuel air mixture -- the viscosity of the veg oil can result in poor spray pattern with unburnt oil gumming the piston ring. As can cld starting on veg oil.
When I replaced my injectors on a 300TDi there was a lot of oil "gunk" on them.
can anyone tell me if a Suzuki Grand Vitara can run on these veg oils ? i've looked on the net but can't seem to find a straight yes or no :(
if I remember correctly thats the HDi engine -- so no.
You might get away with it for a while but its not worth risking it, unless its a shed and worth nothing. It'll work with a fuel heater system though
what about a 50 / 50 mix ?
still risky - the 2.0l is a high pressure injection unit. Very fine nozzles and around 1300 bar pressure. Some people run 50/50 or 30/70 oil/diesel but you might get a year or 2 or a week.
A cheap preheater system to get the veg oil up to 60c plus would get it think enough.
thanks for that, i'll look into a preheater this week i reckon.
a good start:
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/forum/index.php
Badger90
04-05-2011, 07:57
If your handy with tools etc, consider a dual tank set up, cost me apprx £75 for the tank and 12v valve, you can route the oil from the main tank across the block with copper pipe to help heat it up before entering the IP.
From what i've read in the past, unless you spend a decent amount of money, the pre heaters can't sustain the oil at a specific temperature past the IP, if it's a cold ambient temperature outside, no matter how hot you get the oil, as soon as it hits the cold ip, you lose the benefit.
I have used veg oil for many a year. Before the rules were changed (and veg oil was much cheaper) I was registered as a road fuel producer and paid fuel duty. As said there is no longer the need to do that. Any residue left in an engine is because the burn is not complete. Diesels are dirty engines anyway but there shouldn't be a sticky residue. The ideal is to heat the oil to between 60-80C but I never did. The oil needs to be thinned if a burn is not complete. Often when veg oil is first used it is common for the fuel filter to clog one or even two times. This is not from the veg oil but because the veg oil acts as a solvent for the bio organisms which grow in diesel. It id diesel gunk that blocks the filter, once gone you won't have to do it again.
My Pajero ran quite happily on a mix of 70% SVO to 30% diesel, in the cold I added 10% petrol (yes petrol). Petrol was used for thinning diesel before winter diesel was introduced.
My local cash and carry are now doing 20ltrs of cooking oil for £17- when I first started using it it was £7! BTW neighbours had reported me for after the tax relaxation for using veg oil (and biodiesel) which I kept in a 1500 ltr tank in the garage. HMCE came late one night, dipped the cars and the tank and declared it was all legal.
Do not attempt to use SVO in a modern diesel engine (PD or Common Rail) as the pressure are too high due to the viscosity of the SVO and at the least pump damage will follow, possibly with engine damage. DI's are ideal for use with SVO.
Direct Injection (DI) are not the best for SVO, older indirect injection with swirl pots are best.
Problem with the engine relies on a very fine spray pattern directly in to the piston cylinder - the viscousity on veg oil, even when thinned, means that your will get some thicker feeds than is ideal. Indirect on the other hand is much more tollerant as they have a realatives course spray pattern with the air and fuel mixture being mix in the swirl pot prior to been drawn into the cylinder.
That said my 300Tdi ran ok on up to 50% WVO depending on temperature. Note veg oil can knacker the injectors though - mind you I saved more than the cost or replacemetn injectors in a year.
Large Sack
08-05-2011, 14:08
I have to say chaps that I truly, truly admire your dexterity...
I wish I knew what a cambearing ridgeflange was...especially if it would save on the ridiculous fuel prices here in the UK.
I know that the pedal on the right makes it go and the pedal on the left makes it stop ;)
God bless ingenuity
Cheers
Sack
Whittler Kev
18-06-2011, 11:24
Remember to change your washers in your pump as loads of people have found that chip shop oil perishes the pump seals so makes it VERY uneconomical in the long run (have a google for the test results - can't remember were I read it as it was last year I was looking in to it:confused:)
You need to filter waste veggie oil (chip shop oil) VERY carefully and thoroughly before use, otherwise you'll clog your engine up in no time - burnt bits of fish and chips don't pass through engine filters or injectors ery well! I use fresh supermarket oil- ideally sunflower - in my Ssangyong. Runs fine at 100% above freezing (70-30 veggie/diesel in the colder months), although periodically run a half-tank of diesel in "just in case", normally when there's no veggie-oil deals going on.