View Full Version : Urgent!Eu about to ban many herbs
john wings
29-04-2011, 14:02
please sign the petition in this link if you are concerned;two days to go before they do so.
http://www.avaaz.org/en/eu_herbal_medicine_ban/97.php?cl_tta_sign=9e47bfc52d8 73587e77fdbd85b9c7d8a
I'll worry about it when I see the inspectors in my garden.
I'll worry about it when I see the inspectors in my garden.
Absolutely right!
Graham_S
29-04-2011, 14:33
This would be the ban that says that if you want to sell herbal medicine, it has to do what you say it does?
demographic
29-04-2011, 16:24
This would be the ban that says that if you want to sell herbal medicine, it has to do what you say it does?
That would be a disaster, the poor honest hardworking people who make homoeopathic medicines might go out of business...
Mind, thinking about it, they might be OK as their remedies so diluted that they most likely don't contain any "active ingredient" anyway.
Graham_S
29-04-2011, 16:33
As far as I can see, they don't.
They rely on "the memory of water"
Apparently the water can remember all about the remedy that was in it, but not about its trip through the sewage treatment plant...
:D
British Red
29-04-2011, 16:34
For the avoidance of doubt, the EU are not planning on banning any herbs, nor does the legislation concerned ban any herbs.
All this is doing is bringing the sale of 'herbal medicines' under the same labelling regs as food. You can't make medicinal claims unless you have proof that it works. And proof is clinical trials, same deal for any other medicinal product, not anecdotal evidence.
The idea is so that consumers are not misled. Nothing wrong with that. Level playing field.
mrcharly
29-04-2011, 19:49
erm:
The EU Directive erects high barriers to any herbal remedy that hasn't been on the market for 30 years -- including virtually all Chinese, Ayurvedic, and African traditional medicine. It's a draconian move that helps drug companies and ignores thousands of years of medical knowledge.
'30 years' and 'thousands of years'
I'd suggest that if the herb has been used for thousands of years, it's a pretty safe bet that it's been on sale for more than 30.
demographic
29-04-2011, 20:25
The idea is so that consumers are not misled. Nothing wrong with that. Level playing field.
Exactly. Sounds fine to me and snakeoil salesmen should have to justify their claims about the products they sell.
Agreed. they have been getting away with misleading people for years.
its all fair points but its ironic noone seems to have the same attitude re the drug companies.
everyone shouts when an NHS trust/NICE say they cant aford a drug that demonstrates a marginal increase in life expectancy in a small proportion of trial patients (i.e most cancer drugs) and doesn't bat an eyelid when said drug company offers the drug for 10k a pop.
a few modest herbalists however get it in the neck because of the odd snakeoil salesman claims their 'cure' works - a claim that only lasts so lang anyway....
The difference is in the research. Its one thing to go through all the hoops to ensure that we - the patients - get a product that is safe (ish..) to use, compared to someone filling up a bottle from the tap and selling it for 10 quid a go............................ .............................. ...........................
Actually, since every atom in existence came from big-bang times, some 14 billion years ago, I feel a business opportunity coming on.
"Big Bang" water - guaranteed to be the most ancient of remedies - all facts confirmed by every reputable scientist in the world, from Einstein to Steven Hawking................
British Red
30-04-2011, 17:05
its all fair points but its ironic noone seems to have the same attitude re the drug companies.
everyone shouts when an NHS trust/NICE say they cant aford a drug that demonstrates a marginal increase in life expectancy in a small proportion of trial patients (i.e most cancer drugs) and doesn't bat an eyelid when said drug company offers the drug for 10k a pop.
a few modest herbalists however get it in the neck because of the odd snakeoil salesman claims their 'cure' works - a claim that only lasts so lang anyway....
Herbs will still be out there. Herbal preparations may still be sold...as foodstuffs, cosmetics etc. Provided no medical claims (that have not been substantiated) are made, no problem
I realise that mate i was just venting on the irony of people accepting the drug companies without question.....
I see your point but, if there is nothing to hide and a product has genuine merit, it will pass trials and be available.
I have no issue as such against 'natural remedies' - let's face it, penicillin is a naturally occurring mould, willow bark contains aspirin, etc. Indeed, many drugs companies are combing the jungles for the next new wonder drug.
It is also worth noting that the cost of developing and trialling new drugs is phenomenol. In which case, if a product is good enough, a manufacturer will be able to to persuade a larger company to sponsor them through the trials.
It may not seem fair but it's the safest method we have at the moment.
You can't put a price on the placebo effect of some herbal remedies.If someone believes that something does them good and they feel better for taking it then surely that's a good thing whether it actually does anything or not.
Unless it's actually dangerous of course.
All this is doing is bringing the sale of 'herbal medicines' under the same labelling regs as food. You can't make medicinal claims unless you have proof that it works. And proof is clinical trials, same deal for any other medicinal product, not anecdotal evidence.
The idea is so that consumers are not misled. Nothing wrong with that. Level playing field.
Well that should remove about 99.99% or all these quack remedies. This is about as far as I go for a herbal remedy, won't help your cold but it tastes nice
http://www.drinksmixer.com/drink5382.html
sandsnakes
30-04-2011, 22:01
erm:
'30 years' and 'thousands of years'
I'd suggest that if the herb has been used for thousands of years, it's a pretty safe bet that it's been on sale for more than 30.
So a herb that has been on sale in another place for more than 30 years other than central europe is not allowed, i see it makes it all clear now.
Define scientific 2000 years ago the chinese emperor orderd that all herbs used in medicine be evaluated and tried '.....the Yellow Emperors classic as translated byDr. Maoshing Ni’s translation of The Yellow Emperor Emperor’s Classic of Medicine (Neijing Su Wen). This ancient work, considered to be over 2,000 years old, is considered a central text of both Taoism and Chinese medicine. It is characterized by its clinically accurate translation and readability.'
Was not the Emperors approach not scince?
Fact is lots of herbs work thats why drug companies use them to gain chemical extracts.
Then boils down to informed choice and freedom, we all know anyone who has a knife about their person for any reason is a criminal and must be punished. As informed users you are already subject to unthinking restrictions under uk law. Think again before you brand anothers choice as 'snake oil' or sabre ground convex with seconday bevel is rubbish, scandi is the only way! I just go for 'sharp' ie what works.
Yet more brown envelope legislation that 'throws out the baby with the bath water'.
:)
Totumpole
30-04-2011, 22:50
I always like playing devils advocate and will relish in doing so, but Im not saying that homeopathic treatment as the sole way to go. However everything comes from nature somehow. I can see why the major pharmaceutical companies would not like it if we could eat something that grows in fields or hedgerows to cure breast cancer rather than pay thousands for hormone based therapies. In the same vain neither do governments, because they ultimately get tax from these companies.
Who is going to invest the same funding to prove effecitveness of homeopathic remedies that you can then not charge a nominal fee for because they have been used for thousands of years and are hence not patentable. This is not profitable for anyone, so why put up the funds to do it. One example I can give, that is not at all related to herbal rmedies, is the new PARAFEN or whatever its called - "we've been working for 5 years to invent a new pain killer" - absolute bull. You've been doing what I have for over a decade - taking paracetamol along with ibuprofen and putting it in 1 tablet so that you can charge masses for (except i take 3 or 4 that cost 12p per dose rather that 1 or 2 at a quid) - an absolute rip off.
demographic
01-05-2011, 09:52
I always like playing devils advocate and will relish in doing so, but Im not saying that homeopathic treatment as the sole way to go. However everything comes from nature somehow. I can see why the major pharmaceutical companies would not like it if we could eat something that grows in fields or hedgerows to cure breast cancer rather than pay thousands for hormone based therapies. In the same vain neither do governments, because they ultimately get tax from these companies.
Who is going to invest the same funding to prove effecitveness of homeopathic remedies that you can then not charge a nominal fee for because they have been used for thousands of years and are hence not patentable. This is not profitable for anyone, so why put up the funds to do it. One example I can give, that is not at all related to herbal rmedies, is the new PARAFEN or whatever its called - "we've been working for 5 years to invent a new pain killer" - absolute bull. You've been doing what I have for over a decade - taking paracetamol along with ibuprofen and putting it in 1 tablet so that you can charge masses for (except i take 3 or 4 that cost 12p per dose rather that 1 or 2 at a quid) - an absolute rip off.
I think the main problem with homoeopathic remedies is that they are so diluted to such an amount that its highly unlikely that any of the supposedly active ingredient remains in it.
I suppose you heard about the "Mass Poisonings" where people took some of the tablets supposedly containing arsenic (I think it was arsenic anyway) to prove that it didn't actually contain any arsenic anyway as it was so diluted. All a stunt to show homoeopathic remidies up as the cons they are.
In my eyes its inexcusable to sell these things claiming that they cure people of anything.
Shame town centres don't have the stocks anymore.
Oscillococcinum (commonly shortened to Oscillo[1]) is a homeopathic alternative medicine marketed to relieve influenza-like symptoms. It is one of the most popular homeopathic preparations, particularly in France. Oscillococcinum is manufactured by a French company, Boiron, its sole manufacturer. There are, however, other manufacturers who make similar preparations. Oscillococcinum is used in more than 50 countries. In France, it has been in production for over 65 years.
The preparation is derived from duck liver and heart, diluted to 200C—a ratio of one part duck offal to 100200 parts water. This is such a high dilution that the final product likely contains not a single molecule of the original liver. Homeopaths claim that the molecules leave an "imprint" in the dilution that causes a healing effect on the body, although there is no evidence that supports this mechanism or efficacy beyond placebo.
Yet more brown envelope legislation that 'throws out the baby with the bath water'.
The baby isn't in the bathwater mate, its so diluted that there isn't a single molecule of baby in the bath water.
"The Yellow Emperor Emperor’s Classic of Medicine" and the potions therein have not been clinically trialed and are therefore worthless to a sick persons who should have an idea if the medication given will help.
Most modern medicine comes from the natural world, but is studied, evaluated, formulated and trialled before sold to Joe Public whereas any old quack can knock up a jar of pee and stick a label on it, wast of time and dangerous to those with faith in the junks ability to help.
Modern medication stopped my death last year, morphine gave me relief when I had unbelievable levels of pain, there is NO herbal substitute for that level of healing or anywhere near it.
BorderReiver
01-05-2011, 12:53
The rules have been applied to protect the public from adulteration and poisoning from the "wrong" herb in the box.
They do not have to prove efficacy, just have in the box what should be in the box.
Folks who want to use herbs are stiil free to use them, with the added bonus that any they buy will not kill them.
Modern medication stopped my death last year, morphine gave me relief when I had unbelievable levels of pain, there is NO herbal substitute for that level of healing or anywhere near it.
where do you think morphine comes from?
I work in 'modern medicine' and believe me drug companies have far too much control.
BorderReiver
01-05-2011, 13:09
where do you think morphine comes from?
I work in 'modern medicine' and believe me drug companies have far too much control.
They do indeed, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't regulate the herb sellers to protect the public.
sellers yes - personal users no
this is a slippery slope...
resnikov
01-05-2011, 13:33
I can see why the major pharmaceutical companies would not like it if we could eat something that grows in fields or hedgerows to cure breast cancer rather than pay thousands for hormone based therapies. In the same vain neither do governments, because they ultimately get tax from these companies. .
Think they would prefer it if we did. There is no real profit in anti cancer, anti aids drugs etc. It takes a lot of research, clinical trails and a lot of money for a drug that may only be suitable for 1 in a hundred patients due to side effects etc.
The pharmaceutical companies make most of there money from over the counter drugs we can buy ourselves with out a prescription. How many boxes of lemsip, paracetamol etc do we all buy each year and not use them all but throw away a half used blister pack? What they don't want is is you taking herbs instead of the over the counter drugs.
The other profit is in drugs like Viagra alot of people will pay alot for drugs like that.
where do you think morphine comes from?
I work in 'modern medicine' and believe me drug companies have far too much control.
Plants after it has been refined and after undergoing clinical trials where dosage and interaction with other drugs was studied and formulated, where did you think it came from. ?
I would rather trust the global money making companies than some idiot messing in the garden shed with no idea the consequences of his or her action could inflict on some mug who buys it.