View Full Version : sheeple or fashion?
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On a recent bushcrafting trip to Sweden we travelled around a bit by train and coach dressed in our normal bushcrafting gear but to my horror we were continually mistaken for soldiers. In UK were the army wear camo, have short hair, generally are young blokes and walk in step it doesnt happen (here if you dress like a soldier your just a sado sas wanna be) but there obviously the military are different and with the home guard ect I suppose it was an easy mistake for people to make.
So my point, if it happened in Sweden it could happen in a south america state or Arab one with deadly consquencies.
Thanks to high profile people like Mr Mears bushcrafters now wear a uniform as distinct to us and any other but I personally want to get away from this. There are now 100's of good items on the market from companies like Keela of scotland and Lowe Alpine ect ect so why do we still all look the same?
SO what do we do?
Is army lightweight trosuers, a green and brown check swanni and a ventile sas smock still the best combo? Are we all just sheeple and sad fashion victims?
What do you wear and why?
weekend_warrior
15-07-2005, 09:15
Its human nature that groups of like minded people tend to gravitate towards a uniforms - look at teenagers! We all have sterotypical views of how a teacher looks or a doctor for example. I can only speak for myself, but I tend to wear the clothing that others have recommended - because I lack the 24/7 experience that people, like yourself, have. So yes, I wear lightweights, woven woolen shirts etc..etc... (not the SAS Smock though!) A lot of this also because of limited budget too - army surplus is generally good kit and fair priced too. Bushcraft Uniform? maybe, but I'm still proud to wear it.. ;) I'm always open to new ideas and recommendations though..
I'd never wear DPM or lightweights in South Africa though - I'm enough of a target as it is! :o
(off for a quick graze... Baaa... baa..... :) )
people will always be made to feel a bit odd if they are wearing something that is very different. Need we go back to the Ashdown jokes (for people that weren't there I was wearing a motorbike suit which was warm comfy practicle but not normal). I wear polycotton trousers anyway and think they really are a good choice, army surplus is just the easiest way for many people to get them cheaply. I do feel that there is a very strong idea that some bits are what you should have and anything else would be because you don't want to spend the money on that particular item
*GB axe
*sabre pack
*swannie
On the other hand these are all great bits of kit so I have no problem with people wanting them.
i have been mistaken for a soldiers many times and i didn't even more any camo stuff ! just loads and loads of OD... Thinking of just adding some more tan or brown to it. But most kit can be more easily found in OD.
jamesdevine
15-07-2005, 09:45
What do they say about great minds thinking a like. I have been pondering the same thing myself the last few days. With all the recent threads on kit from ChrisKavanagh's fetish with tweed (sorry chris) and the old V new materials debate I have been wondering is what we consider to be necassary bushcraft clobber of any benifit to the skills we are tring to learn and preserve.
The voyager's of old were known for their bright colours, the mountain men sometimes decorated the cloths with beads and like as did the indians. Some Sami wear bright blue.
Do we buy swanni's and lightweight trousers in OD becuase they improve our bushcraft skills and knowlodge or is it becuase we wise to belong too the tribe?
The muted colours help when stalking for example but red check shirt were quite popular as were different colored Cabotes, was it their skill that was better and meant that what ever the color of their clothing they still but meat on the table.
Very interesting topic.
James
weekend_warrior
15-07-2005, 09:53
My friends in the USA wear fluro orange with camo stripes - deer can't see the orange. so maybe OD doesn't mater (maybe!)
I dont think that fashion is a driving force in the clothes that bushcrafters wear, I feel that our choice of clothing is driven by practicality.
its not suprising that we look military though, the clothing requirements of a bushcrafter and a soldier are almost identical, the only difference is that we dont need the camoflage.
I almost exclusively wear khaki I find it a very adaptable colour and not one likely to be misconstrued
but in Saudi arabia the khaki uniform of the american boy scout leader is regularly mistaken as that of the local police/military. that doesnt mean that boy scout leaders are in danger, as long as you are not overtly dressed in camoflage and walking around some of the worlds most dangerous places, I dont feel that there is any need to be concerned about what you choose to wear
jamesdevine
15-07-2005, 10:01
I have heard this myself hence my question about weather it's neccasary to were OD at all. It helps I am sure but not being a hunter I have no experience to comfirm why.
I will still wear mute colors and probable by a swanni, but navy, khaki and even red check will be weclome in my out of doors wardrobe.
James
What do they say about great minds thinking a like. I have been pondering the same thing myself the last few days. With all the recent threads on kit from ChrisKavanagh's fetish with tweed (sorry chris) and the old V new materials debate I have been wondering is what we consider to be necassary bushcraft clobber of any benifit to the skills we are tring to learn and preserve.
The voyager's of old were known for their bright colours, the mountain men sometimes decorated the cloths with beads and like as did the indians. Some Sami wear bright blue.
Do we buy swanni's and lightweight trousers in OD becuase they improve our bushcraft skills and knowlodge or is it becuase we wise to belong too the tribe?
The muted colours help when stalking for example but red check shirt were quite popular as were different colored Cabotes, was it their skill that was better and meant that what ever the color of their clothing they still but meat on the table.
Very interesting topic.
James
Good points James all native peoples tended to celebrate life by wearing bright colours! .And isnt the saying great minds often think alike but fools seldom differ mate? LOL!!
My friends in the USA wear fluro orange with camo stripes - deer can't see the orange. so maybe OD doesn't mater (maybe!)
Most animals see in black and white and relie on other senses better than site - the hi vis gear hunters wear is to stop their mates shooting then not to hit em from Bambi!
I think it's mostly to do with wanting to feel more 'in tune' with your surroundings instead of sticking out like an 'alien' in the natural environment. Saying that I do have a bright orange ventile jacket that I wear quite a lot.
Thanks to high profile people like Mr Mears bushcrafters now wear a uniform as distinct to us and any other but I personally want to get away from this.
...
SO what do we do?
...
Is army lightweight trosuers, a green and brown check swanni and a ventile sas smock still the best combo? Are we all just sheeple and sad fashion victims?
What do you wear and why?
There is an element of sad fashion victim in even asking the question, surely?
*Not* wanting to look like someone/something is indicative of just as much concern over other peoples' perceptions as looking like something, surely.
Note I'm not accusing anyone of anything, except possibly myself. I don't pay any attention to fashion per se, but that is not the same as not caring what I look like. I want to look like I am not trying to look fashionable, so to speak.
I dress as a Biker/lumberjack hybrid whilst being an office based senior IT bod. Partly cos it's comfy and practical but (mostly) because I relish confounding peoples' expectations, *especially* those I've only dealt with using my best posh 'phone voice previously.
Childish, but I enjoy it.
Regarding the 10,000 Ray Mears issue, perhaps his advice is good. I often wear a baggy old fishing jumper instead of a Swannie, but thin polycotton pants and a wool top are still a sound combo, I think. These sort of clothes mean a very limited choice of styles/colours, leading to the attack of the clones to which you refer, I reckon.
I'm less convinced about the ventile. I've a 200g pertex windshirt that does the same job, barring pockets, and folds down to a fag-packet. I don't wear it by the fire...
As mentioned in a previous fred, I draw the line at DPM and other overtly (in UK terms) military patterns/colours.
Jim.
fa11en ange1
15-07-2005, 11:05
It has been said before by others, but my choice in clothing is driven by praticality rather than fashion. That said though I do avoid choosing OD or DPM clothes. In general I just wear a t-shirt/fleece/water-proof jacket for upper body and khaki cargo shorts/black surplus trousers in most instances.
I may eventually end up adopting more of a 'uniform' later as I gain experience, but with my current limited experience I can't quite see the need for the 'military' look, although the fabrics are good choices.
weekend_warrior
15-07-2005, 11:17
Most animals see in black and white and relie on other senses better than site - the hi vis gear hunters wear is to stop their mates shooting then not to hit em from Bambi!
Exactly my point - so who cares about DPM or OD? The "muted blending in" must only be for the humans, not the wildlife.. I'm digging my bright red lumber shirt out again! ;)
NickBristol
15-07-2005, 11:59
Maybe the BCUK t-shirts could be produced with the logo on the front and on the back in BIG letters "I'M NOT PLAYING SOLDIERS - I'M ONLY BUSHCRAFTING" above a nice picture of Ray Mears?
tenbears10
15-07-2005, 12:06
I think there is an arguement in this country for people not wanting to look like they are going hunting because of the general pubilc view of killing anything other than a flea. Once you are hunting dpm means you don't get seen so much by the easily offended pubilc. People may not agree with that view but if you look at many shooting forums it is a concern for people in britain.
Anyway that is off topic so sorry.
My brother and I often went climbing and hiking in the same kit only for the fact that we looked into all the stuff available (working for an outdoor retailer helped with research) and we decided that X was the best value, performance etc. so we both bought one. Why would one of us buy the second best one just to be different?
Good Question Gary.
The answer is complex and really depends on the person, for instance do you have an M65 jacket or a Ventile because someone tells you "they are tops kit".
Or have you got both and use one for some things and the other for other things because you know they are both good, have used both and found that they both have specific characteristics which are good for slightly different conditions.
Same thing goes for knives (look at the woodlore), axes and just about every peice of kit that people buy, if you are buying it because it works for you then it's not being sheeple or fashion.
If you are buying it because that is what Ray uses or wears and because "such and such" has one, then that is sheeple or fashion.
It's horses for courses mate everyone is as much an individual as they want to be, all you have to do is see through the BS.
As for colours, well green is a nice subdued colour, it allows us a little more privacy by allowing us to blend that little bit better in whatever area we are working in. It also is a comfort thing, when you blend that little bit better then you feel that little bit more at ease, as if you are part of it all. :D
Think its worth remembering that many of us also fish and shoot, being able to use out gear for multiple hobbies makes sense. I am currently pondering knives in the sub Ģ50 bracket, but want it to be of use for a wide varity of tasks including hide making and butchering game. Army kit is very practical as its hard wearing and has loads of pockets, also tends to be cheap.
I personally do not like to be mistaken for a soldier or a SAS/rambo wannabe. I do like to wear sudbued colors, however. I have a few OD items (swannie, poncho, etc.), but by mixing them with other colors (brown, black, tan, grey), civilian looking gear, and a wide brimmed hat (brown), I still look like a civilian... hopefully :)
Most decorative and higly contrasting patterns, apart from looking good, act as a perfect camo for most large game species. It still breaks your outline and makes it harder to identify you as a human. I'm under the impression that birds (especially predator birds), however, see colors perfectly well. But I have no solid biological data to back that up. Just my impression.
David
A mixture is often best, military green trousers with a nice coloured shirt takes the soldier out of you directly. There are many outdoors comapnies that make wool shirts for example in many colurs except gree. And donīt forget that you can buy some really good kit in ordinary stores. A know a guy who bought two thin woolen jumpers for just a few Ģ in a sailors shop (they were out of fashion).
And donīt forget "better red then dead"
JimH - your right worrying about it is probably as bad as wearing it but it doesnt change the question?
Leon I think I get where your coming from and yes it is courses for horses. As a retailer I like the fact the market is 'predictable' but it doesnt change my wish to stop looking like a clone and or soldier! My kit choices are made by trail and error (and mainly in pastel colours too) - and I no longer listen to the so and so said this was good brigade mainly because the so and so who said it probably sells it! (and yes I have done that myself in my naive past).
The arguements pro and against the mears look (or the bushcrafters uniform) are slightly off topic however (and my fault as I worded things wrongly) that said fashions change but the bushcraft uniform has been the same in the 8 or so years that I've been into bushcraft at a more professional level - but what I was hoping to ask (and using that as an example) was what people wear and why, not whether it was best to go out dressed like old Mearsy, buffy or coco the clown!
BorderReiver
15-07-2005, 14:40
hoping to ask (and using that as an example) was what people wear and why, not whether it was best to go out dressed like old Mearsy, buffy or coco the clown!
I wear a lot of green/brown stuff 'cause I like these colours.
Most of the practical clothing available happens to be in "natural" colours.
I'm sure if good,practical clothing was available in the full spectrum,the woods would be ablaze with colour. :D
Hi all,
Mixed motivations for me. I started to think seriously about this and my head started to hurt - I seem to be one big paradox... :D
Warning. I may be about to waffle :)
First, I definitely go out of my way not to look 'military' - have a few OD things but deliberately don't wear some together 'cos I think I look a bit of a berk!
Some items (Swannie, ullfrotte) I bought partly because I wanted to see what the fuss was about and partly I suspect a subconcious desire to 'look the part', whatever that is. I also like to wear natural fabrics when I can. Some of these I like, such as Ranger shirts (though a bit too much to do seriously hard work in I find) and 200g Ullfrotte underwear (though I like Ice Breaker just as much). Others I don't use (600g Ullfrotte cardy never out of the wardrobe - it just don't get cold enough...).
Other stuff I use when doing bushcrafty things is also used in work, which has justified me spending a few extra quid in some cases. As a result I tend to look like a walker more than anything.
Don't like goretex so sometimes I use a WW double layer ventile parker (a green one strangely enough). Stops anything but a bit heavy. Incidentally the double layer stuff really does stand up on its own when wet - sit it under your tarp and balance a Tilley hat on it and voila a bad 'invisible man' special effect - the bushcrafter with no face :cool:
I tend to use 'modern' trousers like Rohan Bags or Columbia's current ones - rarely in OD (it's not often available anyway). This is where I get hung up on the natural fabric thing - I wish I could find some that suit but the 'modern' stuff works for me... Don't like cargo style ones, as while the carrying capacity is nice again I think they look a bit miltary. The pockets fill up with muck when I'm in work anyway.
Footwear: I just wear what I like and what works. Again, don't tend to wear surplus boots because of the look, while I recognize that many are great (US jungle boots I do use for example). I'm prone to unfortunate impulse buying with footwear - at the moment my favourite boots are some ridiculous US things bought while on holiday over the pond. Dunham 'Waffle Stompers': absolutely brilliant but unfortunately bright red and a bit 'modern design'.
My Personal Top Tip. There's one item that I trust absolutely . That's a Buffallo Special Six shirt. Never fails to keep me comfortable. Ever. If I had to go out into weather that was life-threateningly bad this is what I'd take. I've used the same one pretty much every day in work between Sept to April for the last 10 (yes 10) years. It's been abused horribly and sent back for repair once. Even when it has had holes in it it's just as effective. I wear this when I'm serious and have to be working hard outside - I wear a Swannie when I'm relaxing outdoors (ie Bushcrafting).
So, after all that rambling (sorry :) ) - I make some vain choices about my appearance outdoors and some practical ones. As a result, and after deliberately trying not to look like a berk, I suspect I look like a.... berk.
Anyway I'm sure I'm not alone in being confused - I bet there isn't one of us who looks like they do only for 'sheeple' or fashion reasons or only for practical reasons.
Apologies for the long post. For some reason I needed to blather :D
Cheers,
Rod
JimH - your right worrying about it is probably as bad as wearing it but it doesnt change the question?
...
was what people wear and why, not whether it was best to go out dressed like old Mearsy, buffy or coco the clown!
Defensive, moi? :D :D :D
Best 'fess up then:
OD lightweight trousers (based on price, performance, wore them fishing when Ray was still doing Tracks)
Barbour merino long sleeved t shirt/ thermal shirt (wool, non-itchy, got it cheap on EvilBay) in winter.
M&S thermal 65% wool socks (best for the price and seemingly indestructible)
Swanndri ranger/explorer shirts (this *is* Ray's fault, though I think they are an excellent choice) I avoid the "Default bushcrafter" colours for reasons amply explored elsewhere, my current fave is orange/green check YECH!! :D
Green Swanni Mosgeil if it's *really cold*, or the aforementioned big old baggy jumper.
AltBerg boots (hangover from motorbikes, but fantastic walkers, too)
Pertex windshirt (HI-GEAR? some cheap brand, anyhow)
Regatta lightweight packable waterproofs (cheap, good enough) in summer
Berghaus 3 layer GTX Lightning jacket in winter (mostly up hills)
Tilley hat in summer, Paramo cap in winter
I think I'm nearer Coco than the others, mostly, or possibly a heavily laden tramp :D
Jim.
BlueTrain
15-07-2005, 16:21
While I only discovered and joined this forum a few days ago, I see than I have independently managed to have acquired the proper outfit and should blend right in. However, it is very hot and humid around here (Virginia) half the year, so I get by on much less.
I actually have three DPM smocks, plus an arctic windproof smock as well, that are about just the best outer garment for the money at surplus store prices. For a shirt in cooler weather I prefer a washable wool Pendleton. I actually have two pair of TML's that I've had for 25 years bought direct from some store in England. I've never found anything better but plain old poly-cotton work pants are almost as good except they don't have that handy map pocket in just the right place.
In really cold weather I still rely on battledress serge trousers and I have two pair of those. One British and one Canadian. Both are about 50 years old.
As I said, around here it's hot and humid at least six months out of the year. If I actually have to wear anything, it has to be thin. I know pure cotton feels best when it's hot but it takes forever to dry out. After being mistaken for a ranger in a No.2 dress poplin shirt, I have switched to a poly-cotton t-shirt and everyone is happy.
I have varied footwear for varied weather conditions and have even hiked in sandals as an experiment. I thought the experiment was successful but I haven't been out again. Mostly I wear a fairly ordinary pair of hiking boots.
Even though it is I who wear surplus store uniform items, everyone else seems to be in uniform, too, as if they all shopped at the same store. In point of fact, they probably did, not that there's anything wrong with that. However, I don't read any magazines or follow any forums on hiking and camping other than this one and one more that is, uh, rather specialized, so I have no idea what current fads or fashions are. Even though I happen to already have the things I mentioned, I've never heard of most of the other things or the instructors mentioned. I mostly study things written before 1940.
NickBristol
15-07-2005, 16:22
Before I moved into my current office role I did a lot of surveillance and enforcement work. This was almost entirely in a semi-rural environment (people thought nobody would be watching them 1/2 mile out of town - Doh!), such as the edge of a small industrial park, farmbuildings, city wasteland and the like. There would be frequently be the need to move in an 'urban' environment as well as a more natural 'green' environment. Not looking out of place in either was a real challenge, but some of my favourite outfits were a mix of well chosen fashion labels and tried & tested ex-mil kit.
For example, I have a nice very civvy Quiksilver darkish green blouson type jacket in a fairly heavy cotton with a simple quilted liner. Nice logo on the front too. If I was thinking of bushcraft kit it wouldn't have even crossed my mind as first choice would have been a norgie and a SAS smock or a buffalo special six like Rhodri rightly has so much faith in. But this jacket, with a LoweAlpine goretex lined polartec fleece underneath (in teal) and a long sleeve t-shirt does a good job in most weathers without looking like a wannabe. Trousers are cargo trousers from H&M (Hennes to some people) - windproof pretty much, good pockets, very well made with lots of double stitching and all for a tenner, came in black, navy, dark green and sand so I got a few of each. Look good and wear them all the time I'm not in jeans or a suit. Disposable gaiters that just tear off keep most mud off the bottoms to help moving from muddry rural to urban... Undies are thermals from Asda when they had all their ski stuff in. Footwear was generally either Berghaus walking boots or Merrell cross-type trainers, tho I did wear issue boots for a while but trousers never bloused inside the boot. On my head I tend to have a reversible baseball cap, red one side, dark blue the other. Tends to work quite well I think...
The point is that it is all nothing special and that good kit can come from a non-specialist maker. I've pretty much carried this set-up into all my bushcraft, like all of last weekend in some friends woodland in Essex. It seems sensible to me to look vaguely 'normal' in a country where there is little chance of being undisturbed by the 'public' on any given day. Plus it is nice to be able to drop into any old pub without having to change first or it going quiet when you go through the door...
Clothing seems to be one of the few things we tend to get hung up on here with 'needing' a swanni or ventile everything, when for other things we're hugely keen on the uses of a cheap or novel item from the 'real' world and applying them to bushcraft, such as tampons in firelighting or coke can stoves. Why isn't this thinking applied to all bushcraft kit, including clothing?
This post seems to have gone on forever - sorry about that, I should learn to describe thoughts in shorter sentences and more clearly.
One reason I wear more muted colors is that they tend to show dirt and grime less conspicuously. That being said, I don't care to look like a park ranger or military man. My primary concerns are whether the article of clothing is right for the intended job, are the colors non-flashy, does it have a military look to it? My preferred answers to those questions are yes, yes, and no.
Steve
bambodoggy
15-07-2005, 17:50
Loads of my kit is ex-army as I kept it when I left ;) ...but clothes wise I tend to wear what's right for the situation...a lot is OG but not all. I still have "bright" clothes from my Outdoor Instructor days but I don't like it much.... It's not that I don't want to be seen in the woods...it's just that I feel happier blending in....and green is a very relaxing colour too hence actors sit in "green rooms" before they act.
My tops change depending on what I'm doing but I ALWAYS wear shorts, for bushcrafting, walking the dog, chilling at home and also at work.....so no matter what my top half looks like I can't be mistaken for a squaddie as they're not the shorts wearing types! lol
Bam. :D
Why not? I've got a pair of shorts made from an old pair of lightweights cut off and hemmed just above the map pocket. We wore them in Oman as it was redders, but I look crap in them 'cos my legs are pale white bits of string!
Spacemonkey
15-07-2005, 22:45
I wear green stuff 'cos I like it, and that's that!
During the summer months from late June to late september i live in shorts though. My faves this year are the Ģ20 specials from Millets in stone made from some ultra lightweight modern ripstop stuff, yet they are so light and comfy! Put on last years cottons yesterday and ripped them straight off again. This has got to be one of the first years I have ever had well tanned legs! This is the first year I have gone for shorts that are cut above the knee, and they feel so much better-they don't stick as much as the longer ones when it gets hot. Being built like a racing snake (I'm 6' 2" and 10.5 stone-185cm x 67kg) I have always been conscious of looking so skinny, yet now I am proud to be slim when surrounded by sloths, so I just don't care anymore what people think. People tend to notice the all over dragon tattoo first anyway and it works as a good distraction!
If don't wear green, it's stone/khaki/sand in the summer. Because I like it. Would like a cheapo safari jacket though to complete the 'Walter Raleigh' look though....
bambodoggy
16-07-2005, 00:01
but I look crap in them 'cos my legs are pale white bits of string!
Whereas I, am a bronzed Adonis :p lol :D :D
Ok ok, everyone wears shorts but you have to admit very very few squaddies wear them on duty in public and that's what I was talking about, looking like a soldier or being mistaken for one.
Bam. :D
My tops change depending on what I'm doing but I ALWAYS wear shorts, for bushcrafting, walking the dog, chilling at home and also at work.....so no matter what my top half looks like I can't be mistaken for a squaddie as they're not the shorts wearing types! lol
Not wrong! When I got to Ashdown, I thought I'd wandered into a remake of Daktari - all Landrovers and kneecaps :p
Jim.
Everyone should just wear what they wish too wear,i understand the point about not wishing to be thought of as xxxx sas special special forces pretender types but i wear OG just because i like it. :)