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Report in The Herald today about Police chiefs calling for a cooling off period when buying *kitchen* knives......I've got 180 kids to work with this summer and permission to teach them how to use knives, saws, axes and billhooks properly....they even gave us a budget to buy the tools :D If these guys get their way then I'm going to be public enemy No.1 :eek: :(
http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/40866.html
Not so cheerful,
Toddy
OldJimbo
09-06-2005, 01:20
I read this in the article:
"The move comes just a day after two men and a woman were attacked in Glasgow with knives in the latest "happy slapping" incident – in which youths use mobile phones to record assaults on unsuspecting victims."
Does that really happen with any regularity over there now? I haven't been back in over twenty years.
sandbender
09-06-2005, 07:01
It does happen, however there is little likelihood of it happening to you unless you are male and aged 15 - 25.
There were however sixty knife related deaths in Scotland last year, although I doubt very many were inflicted by £80 - £250, four inch blade, scandi grind type knifes in the possession of sensible, law abiding citizens.
Do they seriously think that banning a type of knife will stop knife-related crimes?
That would be as brilliant as to ban 9mm but not .22 guns. And banning all knives does make one remember the old Manchurian regime in ancient China who banned all but 1 knife per two villages to avoid any uprising being of the armed variant :)
I think personally they might look into the mechanics of these crimes instead of the tool used. If you take one tool away (such as knives) another will be used (billyclubs, baseballbats, pipes, cars, chains, etc etc etc)
Ogri the trog
09-06-2005, 08:53
Have to agree with everything so far.
Its the "Yoof" culture looking for the regular buzz of excitement that they seem to require. The banning of knives, airguns and "insert next thing to be banned here" is just the governments knee jerk reaction, so they can claim the votes of the populace as they are seen to be "doing something about it"
As if you'd want to buy a knife every week because the one you bought last week has disolved into the ether :confused:
Ogri the trog
Its the "Yoof" culture looking for the regular buzz of excitement that they seem to require.
Turning that on its head slightly, there are a number of people in our society who get a kick out of getting things banned - I'd suggest this is just them looking for their latest easy fix...
R-Bowskill
09-06-2005, 09:38
I've got to be careful what I say in response to that, I know lots of people would love to see Jamie Oliver and his kind locked up but the facts are that there are many things which kill more people than knives or other 'weapons'.
The hot summer weather last year resulted in thousands of deaths, no ban on the causes of climate change is proposed though.
Cars kill over 3,000 people every year in Britain, so the government says build more roads so they don't get congested rather than ban them.
One of the biggest killers is work, either accidents at work, on the way to and from work or work related disease but I don't think they will suggest banning work.
What happens if you say in order to protect yourself you want to get away from roads and live in the woods in a little seheter you've built, foraging and hunting your own food and so not having to go to work and risk your life?
They tell you you can't because it's banned under the planning laws. And even fishing for a bit of food in a pond you own needs a license so you have to risk life, limb and sanity going to work to get the money to buy one or that is banned as well.
It's great living in such a free country isn't it???
Keith_Beef
09-06-2005, 09:49
I've got to be careful what I say in response to that, I know lots of people would love to see Jamie Oliver and his kind locked up but the facts are that there are many things which kill more people than knives or other 'weapons'.
The hot summer weather last year resulted in thousands of deaths, no ban on the causes of climate change is proposed though.
Cars kill over 3,000 people every year in Britain, so the government says build more roads so they don't get congested rather than ban them.
One of the biggest killers is work, either accidents at work, on the way to and from work or work related disease but I don't think they will suggest banning work.
What happens if you say in order to protect yourself you want to get away from roads and live in the woods in a little seheter you've built, foraging and hunting your own food and so not having to go to work and risk your life?
They tell you you can't because it's banned under the planning laws. And even fishing for a bit of food in a pond you own needs a license so you have to risk life, limb and sanity going to work to get the money to buy one or that is banned as well.
It's great living in such a free country isn't it???
I read that most fatal accidents occur in the home. That scared me so much, I moved out.
Keith.
Life is dangerous, it always gets you in the end :)
Seriously though, this does sound like a "woo.. election times. how can i score some brownie points with the general public" thing. Imho however this would misfire a bit :)
its totally mental, if someone wants to do someone else some harm they will do - banning kitchen knives isn't going to stop them.
hihihi.. maybe it's revenge for Jamie's School Kitchen campaign..
"Right, you b-tard try to make good food without any knives!! I got shares in the Turkey Twizzlers corp!"
:p
how will they define a 'kitchen' knife??
bambodoggy
09-06-2005, 11:11
Nothing the Government does anymore suprises me.
I don't have a lot to say about this as it won't make any difference to them banning things but here's my bit....
Inanimate objects don't kill/maim people....other people kill/main people.
What possible reason do they have for banning knives? We have laws against murder, laws against intimidation, laws against rape, robbery, mugging and GBH/ABH, all of these carry very harsh sentances (should the courts chose to dish them out), with Murder carrying a potencial life sentance (where life could even mean the rest of your life).
They have the legal tools to deal with these thugs already regardless of whatever type of weapon (or none) that was used. So if the thugs aren't worried by a possible life sentance then are they really going to give a monkeys about a year or so extra for having a knife with them? ? ? I think not.
All these laws do is to criminalise a large part of our social group for no good purpose other than we choose to carry a sharp tool with us sometimes....moreover the thugs are criminals either way due to the assult or ABH etc they have carried out while using the knife.
Example: A mugger uses a knife at a mugging, so he can be "done" for the mugging.
A bushcrafter uses a knife to carve a spoon, so he harms nobody and should be left to enjoy his hobby. It's not exactly rocket science now is it? ? ? ? ? :rolleyes:
For Murder the sentance should always be a full 30 years inside and for all the other offences I've listed above (and a few I've not) the sentance should fit the crime but be DOUBLED if ANY form of weapon was used.
Now, the important bit is not what new knife laws they bring out...the important bit is that the courts ALWAYS give the harshes sentances they can and make sure EVERYBODY knows this....then maybe, just maybe the little thugs may think twice about what they do when they realise that most of their mates are inside doing a 10 to 25 year stretch. These thugs aren't the sharpest tool in the box but if our courts give out the same treatment time after time after time then sooner or later the thugs will get the message.
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys if they are reabilitated or not so long as they are locked away and can't do anymore damage or upset to innocent people.
I used to giggle when I saw people going through the US legal system and getting like 99 years in prison or 145 years or whatever....what's the point of a 145 year sentance I thought, how typically ott for the yanks...ha ha. Now i realise it's a very very good way to stop the do-good lawyers getting their scumball clients out of prison after only a few years...e.g even if you make parole and only serve a third of your sentance (which happens a lot over here), if you were given 145 years then you'd only be up for parole after about 46 years.... I don't know many people who wouldn't brick it when faced with 46 years locked away!
Just my opinion anyway :D
Cheers,
Bam.
It seems to me that the UK passed the point of logic on this one a long time ago. What's next a ban on the production of testosterone? Mac
Lets just ban people =) Solves the problems quicker that way =)
HuBBa - ban people classic.
there was a good Jello Biafra spoken word when he goes on about
"Banning Everything"
Spacemonkey
09-06-2005, 17:32
Funny this, because I thought it was already illegal for under 18's to buy knives, and definitely illegal for anyone to 'carry' such a beasty too. So does this also mean that the little darlings won't raid mum's kitchen draw anymore?
Yet another Victory Party restriction on the disarmed masses then.
Paganwolf
09-06-2005, 17:45
I Make you right spacemonkey, what will do next pass a law that all kitchen utencils are to be cept under lock and key? i can see it now "police raid granny smiths house break down door and arrest her because a by passer saw an offencive potato peeler laying menisingly on her draining board!" :rolleyes: . Toddy you sound like you are doing the right and correct thing by educating kids to the fact a knife is i usefull TOOL and not something you take to school to use as a lunch money removal device! well done ;) , it is a fact though that most knife related offences are carried out with "kitchen knives" not "Tactical or craft type knives" perhaps we should all use Gill Hibben rambo stylie knives to peel our spuds with eh :D ;)
Hmmmm, I can't help thinking!!!... We can't have the local populous killing each other, or worse, us MP's. Now we do have a somewhat large number of heavilly armed young men, with purpose made weapons killing people around the world. Yep, no problem with that... :eek:
I'd love to see the health and safety minister on the front line...
Joules
bambodoggy
10-06-2005, 10:16
I can see it now "police raid granny smiths house break down door and arrest her because a by passer saw an offencive potato peeler laying menisingly on her draining board!" :rolleyes:
What's more sad JP is that going on previous form what you say above is exactly what will happen as Granny won't know the ins and outs of the Human Rights Laws and so will be a nice easy conviction and look good on the Stats!!!!
Sad isn't it.... :rolleyes:
Swampy Matt
10-06-2005, 11:11
If they have to ban a knife there is no knife more worthy of banning than the Stanley. I have had knives pulled on me on far too many occasions (grew up and lived in some dodgy areas :( ) and it has always been a Stanley style knife that the idiot was waving around.
These things cost a couple of quid, are available from hardwear stores, supermarkets, newsagents, etc and no-one bats an eyelid when you purchase one as every builder, plumber, chippy and sparkey has one in their tool box.
I used to have one in my tool box until i realised that there is no job that they can do that can't be done better with my Opinel or my Petzl Spatha (which is an awesome UK legal carry knife - looks funky too!)
On the other hand, what level is this going to be taken to? a few years back i saw a guy stabbed with a steel ball point pen. the wound was really nasty, but fortunately the guy survived. So do we start a campaign to ban BIROS? (they are being used as weapons against freedom by pen pushing bureaucrats!)
or was this just an example of the pen being mightier than the sword ;)
I think that what has been said before about education is on the correct track, people need to be educated and not just kids adults as well.
How many of those people that are campaigning for a ban have to use a knife for work for instance, when at home are they so adventurous to actually cook something from scratch or is it a case that they get their meals precooked in something that can be thrown in a microwave or conventional oven for X amount of minutes. If they are well enough payed they may not even eat at home at all!!!!!
The problem is that good intentions often go awry and although the intention is good the thought process behind it is flawed.
If they want to go mad on things why don't they just ban cars, they enable criminals to get to and from thier crime scenes without being noticed, they can be used for transporting illegal goods, the people behind the wheel kill X amount of people per year (both drunk drivers and sober), they are harmfull to the enviroment and they are a massive drain on our police resources.
They don't ban cars because cars are a tool, if they are abused then they could view it as the cars fault, a knife is exactly the same, in the end it is not the object as they have no will of thier own, but the person controlling said object and the sooner people realise this the better :rolleyes:
Sorry rant over :D
BorderReiver
10-06-2005, 11:41
One thing has always amused (worried,frightened the sh t out of ) me is that the events which triggered the two big bannings where caused by mentally deranged men with access to firearms.
NOW,we have lots of young men coming back from war zones who have been severely traumatised.They are trained in the use of,and have access to the very types of weapons that were used by the two guys who caused all the trouble.
How long will it be before one of these poor damaged sods does something serious? What will HMG ban then?
One other thing about all this, some races in the UK carry knives as part of tradition and religion are they then going to tell these people "Sorry you can't carry that anymore, nevermind, here's a rather ornate and pretty spoon instead".
It would appear that we have got used to the politicians giving it "blah, blah, blah"
and the populace appear to be giving it "Baaahh, Baaahh, Baaahh".
EDIT;
I will now apologise for starting to get political as this forum is totally non political and should be kept so :)
Swampy Matt
10-06-2005, 12:03
With you on the education one Leon.
I've done various demos with knives for Martial Arts/self defence purposes, in one of these i present a selection of different styles of knife in front of the group and discuss the ORIGINAL purpose of the knife, whether it was designed as a weapon or a tool.
I have always been amazed by the number of people who are suprised that a knife was ever designed to be 'just' a tool. Even if they do know that some knives are 'just tools' they always seem to get it wrong - a machete is always percieved as a tool (in spite of Daily Mail type flag waving reports about 'vicious machete attacks') however a kukhri is always regarded as a weapon because "those gurkha soldiers carry them". I always have to explain that they are really just regional variations on the same thing.
But is banning Knives really going to make a difference. The knee jerk reactions after Hungerford and Dunblane have done nothing to reduce gun crime - its actually on the increase. Knives are banned in prison, but anyone with a cigarette lighter and a plastic eating utensil can make a servicable stabbing implement.
Swampy Matt
10-06-2005, 12:27
One other thing about all this, some races in the UK carry knives as part of tradition and religion
Its members of the Sikh religion that are required to carry a knife as one of five articles that signify their religion. Historically the Sikhs come from the warrior caste of Hindu society and were greatly persecuted in the early days of their religion. The knife is a symbol of their will to DEFEND their religion to the death.
Essentially we all have a reason to carry a knife as part of tradition. The knife/hand axe is generally regarded as mankinds first tool, and it is tool use and design that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Therefore we all should have the inalienable right to carry a knife.
Incidentally i saw a Sikh guy in a fight once (he was a mate at school). before the fight kicked off he removed his 'Kara/gara' (a thick, ridged, steel bangle also required as on of the five religious articles) and held it in his hand like a knuckle duster (also a banned weapon!) he dropped both the guys who attacked him with one punch each!!!
the point behind this? - Let them ban what they want - those who want weapons will always find a way to get them and those who want tools will always find a way of getting them too.
Have I wandered into a paranoid US militia forum by mistake?
MartiniDave
10-06-2005, 12:59
Some of the proposals coming out now re knives and guns echo very closely the standing orders issued by the Nazis following the invasion of the Channel Islands in WW2!
What WAS it that our lads were fighting for back then?
Have I wandered into a paranoid US militia forum by mistake?
what makes you say that? the thread is discussing proposals to ban the sale of knives.
Minotaur
10-06-2005, 13:38
Ban under 18 from having mobiles! They are the cause of this particular problem.
Oh, I forgot, Mobile Phone companies would spend lots of backdoor money to keep their best customers.
Essentially we all have a reason to carry a knife as part of tradition. The knife/hand axe is generally regarded as mankinds first tool, and it is tool use and design that sets us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom. Therefore we all should have the inalienable right to carry a knife.
Hmm....
Ranger Bob
10-06-2005, 16:20
From the early saxon period, wearing a knife was a symbol of a mans freedom!
What is this country coming too?!!!!
Banning knives or even just preventing ill minded peoples purchasing them, isn't going to solve the problem! As has already been said, they'll just resort to a different object.....a screwdriver, a board with a nail in it, a shoe, a grand piano....
Its a typical alarmist reaction, typical of the kind that seems to be plaguing this country.
I think the government claims that 80% of people are in favour of an outright ban.....well 80% of people can be 100% wrong!
But how can we go about educating people about knives and their infinate uses????
I'm not usually pesimistic, but I can't see this charade working out in our favour...
and I know all of the above has been said before...I just had to get it out of my system!
I think one of the problems might be the people selling knives. I know there are dealers/collectors out there and I dont mean that side of the market.
I took a friend out a couple of weeks ago to look for a knife, he had been told of a market stall that was good for knives :rolleyes: , the guy(who had been selling knives for 40 or more years he told me) had on display some nasty looking weapons and one hollow handle cheap and nasty survival knife. I asked if he had something along the lines of a mora, he had never heard of them or frosts. I described my knife and he said as it was swedish it would cost too much!(at least £50 for a swedish steel blade)he told me it must be a cheap import when I told him how much I had paid!
I think the majority of people see knives for sale in places like this, selling the "coolest" looking knives to late teens early twenties on impulse buys who see the tool as a weapon and this does genuine knife users no good whatsoever.
If a "specialist" knife dealer doesn't know about proper tools what chance does any person who's only knowledge of knives(or guns,hunting, insert next item here) comes from the tabloids have of understanding why anybody would want to walk round the woods with a knife?
I think the best person for changing attitudes at the moment is Mr Mears as he is the only person that a high percentage of the population has seen or heard of using knives as tools.
My rant is over! I apologise to all the knife dealers out there it is not aimed at them but at the cheap, shiny, dangerous looking end of the trade.
what makes you say that? the thread is discussing proposals to ban the sale of knives.
I guess having just visited the hoodlums forum at www.survival.com, i reckoned that stuff like this :
These thugs aren't the sharpest tool in the box but if our courts give out the same treatment time after time after time then sooner or later the thugs will get the message.
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys if they are reabilitated or not so long as they are locked away and can't do anymore damage or upset to innocent people.
would fit in there pretty well.
I don't do the knife fetish thing so the fuss just seems a bit alarmist and elitist.
also just being a little facetious - sorry,
bambodoggy
10-06-2005, 18:33
Flux, me old mukka.... you've taken me a little out of context there Mate!!! :eek:
I guess if you just read that bit then it is a little harsh sounding, however, back in it's actual context I stand by what I have said....the gist of which was;
"We have laws in places already to deal with thugs that carry knifes (guns, sticks, clubs etc) and that if the courts consistantly came down hard on people that use these items inapproprietly as weapons then I personally believe we'd have far less problems.
I also stand by my opinion that if thugs like that are safely locked up then they are not able to be out doing very bad things to inocent people".
We all agree (more or less) that banning things doesn't stop the problem it mearly moves it on to something else.
You'd never believe I was actually quite a laid back sort of person in the flesh now would you! lol :D
There was a similar arguement for banning Pitt Bulls and other breeds of dog because a few idiots had trained theirs to be vicous (or not trained them at all)... and I was firmly behind the campain then to "Punish the deed, not the breed". Same applies here, punish the offender for the Assault or whatever they've done but the knife, screwdriver, hatchet etc etc etc is mearly a tool and not the actual offender itself.
Hope that's a little clearer for you to understand Flux ;)
Cheers,
Bam.
(Oh and I'm with you on the knife fetish thing too Mate, I only own about three but I don't want to be stopped from using them just because certain muppets out there can't behave themselves!!! :D )
innocent bystander
10-06-2005, 18:58
Thing is though, the article started with "kitchen knives". Presumably to stop some p*ssed up twot running in to a shop, buying a steak knife and running out and stabbing someone. So i can slightly see where a cooling off could come -stop the spur of moment crimes, like the law in some states for handguns. Trouble with the article is that it got truncated to just plain "knives". The way i read it, it isn't radicaly different to the laws now - there is no real reason to need to be tooled up to pop into the local for a couple of pints. And as for running around a shooping center, or other "public place" with a knife? Because that the sort of place i think they mean.
I bet they wouldn't bat an eyelid if you carried you bushcrafty gear off the beaten track.
Does anyone know what these scotish policemen actually said? Having done a google media search the herald is aparently the only paper to have reported it.
On a common sense sort of level - Kitchen knives tend to be found in kitchens ( funny that)
There are a lot more kitchens in the land than shops that sell kitchen knives so if you needed a kitchen knife in a hurry to do something illegal would you
A. wait till the shops open and go buy one
B. lift one from the closest kitchen.
Now maybe these policemen were quoted out of context and maybe they were not.
If they were not Im very glad I dont live in Scotland
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=15608456&method=full&siteid=89488&headline=-cooling-off--move-on-buying-knives-name_page.html
http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_1_1&newsid=7925
Don't know if these give any more detail, but the reports would indicate that the call for consideration of the cooling off period is correct.
Toddy
innocent bystander
10-06-2005, 20:53
Bit of fuzzy sort of story really isn't it ?
Another law isn't a clampdown. Draughting in a few bus loads of coppers on a friday night and searching everyone is. If i remember correctly, out of some 800 or so laws, over a quarter have been drafted in the last 8 years. And most of those offences cited, can be covered by the other thre quarters. Scary old world...
Its not the world thats scary its 90% of the people on it :D
innocent bystander
10-06-2005, 21:15
touche (cant be bothered to find the accent to put on there )
Keith_Beef
11-06-2005, 22:08
"The best way to get a bad law repealed is to enforce it strictly."
Abraham Lincoln
Unfortunately, this will be yet another bad law, which will be enforced badly.
It might never be enacted. If it is enacted, then the only chance of getting it overturned may well the the European court.
Keith.
arctic hobo
12-06-2005, 14:04
Speaking of bad laws, I wish there was a way to get rid of the new European standard on sleeping bags. Could be lethal, and it really makes me mad.
I agree that banning knives is ridiculous. I don't have the statistics but I would imagine that most knife related crimes are committed by people who are high on drugs or alcohol or are in a clinically disturbed state of mind. Perhaps the authorities should be looking more at the person than their weapon.
It seems obvious that if we have a large section of our population who are ill-disciplined and not in full control of themselves that they are going to cause us trouble, whether it's with knives or guns or whatever else they can get their hands on.
I'm sure they couldn't care less whether their weapon is legal EDC or not. In fact its very illegality could gain them street cred. Imagine how tough a youth might look to his peers if he's known to be carrying an illegal knife.
As was mentioned earlier in this thread all banning does is make criminals out of normally law-abiding citizens who like to carry a knife for peaceful purposes. I would imagine that every household in the world, even in the poorest country, has some kind of knife. It's a basic human tool that we can't do without. While laws governing the use of recreational drugs are being relaxed they are tightening on our most ancient and useful tool :rolleyes: .
BTW This is my first "real" post to the group. I didn't mean to start out on something controversial but I couldn't help myself :) .
I do agree.
Had a good day today though. Three of us worked with a group of thirty adults and kind of indoctrinated them into the, "Knives are tools. Axes are tools. Fires & tools are good things." school of thought.
These people will be the staff who will work with us on the primitive/traditional skills summer schools programs. 180 children in total, each for four days over the summer :-) and every one of them will see and handle knives, etc., properly. The adults had a great time (so did we) & I think we'll point some of them towards bushcraft too :D
Cheers,
Toddy
I do agree.
Had a good day today though. Three of us worked with a group of thirty adults and kind of indoctrinated them into the, "Knives are tools. Axes are tools. Fires & tools are good things." school of thought.
These people will be the staff who will work with us on the primitive/traditional skills summer schools programs. 180 children in total, each for four days over the summer :-) and every one of them will see and handle knives, etc., properly. The adults had a great time (so did we) & I think we'll point some of them towards bushcraft too :D
Cheers,
Toddy
Sounds wonderful. Well done.
Minotaur
13-06-2005, 10:21
Something like 70% of the population want the death penalty brought back. Strange how that piece of public opinion never got the law changed.
The government have to be seen to do something over rising crime figures and what better than another pointless law. The problem is people already breaking the law, not that they can get these items but the way in which they want to use them, so banning them only effects law abiding people anyway. Look at gun crime, did a ban have an effect? Yes, law abiding people stopped owning guns, strangely people breaking the law anyway it did not effect, if anything it made them better armed.
I stand by my original point, where is the ban on mobiles? They are causing a crime wave but yet no ban. I actually want the name of the chef who said kitchen knives do not need points, to see how he does fish, or maybe the problem is his fish comes labelled McD.