View Full Version : Why am I carrying...........
After reading through some of the articles on this forum I decided it was high time to review the contents of my personal survival kit, packed and sealed about 15 years ago. Unwinding the paracord and before peeling the tape off this chunky little tobacco tin kit, the first thing I found was a contents list.
This list had served it’s purpose perfectly. By listing the all items in the kit, it meant I did not have to unpack the whole tin to check the contents. Great, I could just rewind the paracord and forget about it for a few more years.
But then my attention went to the list again, There were some notes, written in a personal code, that reminded me that there was some kit hidden in my old combat jacket too. No less than 23 items hidden in seams, false panels and hidden pockets.
When I packed all this kit, I was part timing in a mobile reconnaissance unit of the TA. (A part of my life which was fun but convinced me I did not like following orders too much ;) ) The kit in my jacket and tin was all about escape and evasion, very different from my requirements these days.
Now, finally, I get to the point of this thread.
My kit tin has now been repacked as an emergency kit, things to repair clothing and equipment. Extras to deal with unusual things that the normal contents of my pockets and pack cannot handle. Back up stuff for lost items and the like.
So I was wondering…..If you carry such a personal emergency kit, for what purposes have you really designed it?
Wayland, when I was a squaddy I carried a similar get up to what you describe - well I did until two pertinant points where brought to light by a mate of mine while we were in Bosnia.
Firstly - in combat (real war) your clothing is field laundered and as such you dont necessarily get back what you give.
Secondly - upon capture the enemy will do to you exactly what we would do to them (if the bleeding heart liberals of this world will actually let soldiers fight wars without interfering) and that is strip search you for an intelligence - meaning unless you swallowed it before capture you'd lost it anyway.
Now for a civilian an emergency kit is only of limited use - better to carry a flask, a self heating meal and a spare blanket in your car than a personal survival kit in your pocket on a long journey IMO.
But lets say the inevitable happens in our life time and the world goes to hell in a hand basket - would a little pocket survival kit be of muh use? Roiting, louting, civil war, some 28 days later type plague whatever would see how housing estates, supermarkets even cities deserted - in that scenerio I think even the biggest armchair bushcraft would mange to eek out a living if any of the later causes didnt get them first.
So for the real world, a hill walker say who gets lost or busts a leg, again I ask would they need a survival kit? Wouldnt they be better off carrying a orange survial bag and a tallow candle or two - that and a mobile phone will likely be of more use to them than some walter Mitty survival kit.
Ultimately if you have nothing else then a survial kit, crash bag ect is better than nothing but remember the 5 P's and if you prepare for your journey or whatever properly you'll have all that you need on you.
Apart form downed pilots who dont have room for anything more a survival kit (tabocco tin type ect) is only of limited use and the space it takes up would be better filled with a tinder pouch and reliable fire lighting system - of course this is just my humble opinion.
This may be a daft question, but what are the 5 P's?
But lets say the inevitable happens in our life time and the world goes to hell in a hand basket
Do you mean its inevitable in our lifetime or its inevitable at some time?
Actually my main reason for posting this is to say thanks for posting one of the most cogent discussions of the uses of survival kits I've read in quite some time.
Preperation prevents **** poor performance
or
Prior preparation prevents poor performance
Personally I think the second version is a bit naff; surely preperation has to be 'prior' by definition.
Do you mean its inevitable in our lifetime or its inevitable at some time?
Actually my main reason for posting this is to say thanks for posting one of the most cogent discussions of the uses of survival kits I've read in quite some time.
Your welcome Not Bob - and as for the inevitability, who knows mate.
I hope not in our life time, I hope my chrildren and grand child can live out there lives in peaceful harmony but it comforts me to know if it did happen while I still draw breath my family would at least have a fighting chance.
But that aside I also believe that sooner or later it will happen be it plague or war or famine or weather, its all part of the natural cycle of life, growth and death -be it a flower, an empire or a species they all come and go!
I thought it was propper, not prior?
I dont suppose it matters much as the gist is the same whatever. :D
Yes, proper does make rather more sense. Well that's three versions I've heard now (as well as the 6 Ps)
6 p's arent allowed on a family site though notbob!!
jamesdevine
06-05-2005, 12:49
I bought one of the commercial kits sometime ago to make up the change on voucher I had been given.
I has sat in the draw since the day i bought it and I have never needed it. I will us some of the items in trip I'm planning in a week or two the rest will remain in the draw.
Gary has hit the nail on the head. With the basic knowlodge and some for thought in your packing before you leave (make sure mobiles charged, someone knowns your plans) what is the point in carring the extra weight.
Just my thoughts.
James
My own take on the pocket kit has gone through some changes as I have learned more and my circumstances changed.
when I was in uniform, tin based E&E kit this changed to a civilian based kit when out hiking/camping, it changed again when I realised I spent more time in an urban environment.
my kit is now sewing kit ( Ripped suit, bust zip etc), meds, (asprin,immodium, plasters etc), cash (parking machines), mints, spare shoe laces, lighter, pencil and paper, small swiss army knife (executive). this all fits in a small wallet in my back trouser pocket. When I am out practicing bushcraft I try to carry less and rely less on kit and more on me.
I agree with everything that Gary says but still have to admit that thinking about and making survival kits is just great fun. It is a great way to get kids involved in thinking about preparedness. They don't just make up a kit, they think about what they will need and how they will use it. This, I feel, makes them more practically aware of the risks of what they are doing and how to avoid them.
I used to cobble together odd kits as a child and now as an adult I make much more sophisticated and "useful" kits. But you can always guarantee that when I need it, it was left at home and I always end up relying on my son's kit , however unsophisticated it is, as he always carries it.
There is a lesson to be learned there, somewhere.
Ade
Gary, James and Steve: I think we are all knocking around the same point. I still like the Tobacco tin format as it is a useful size but my “emergency”kit now contains things like sewing kit, repair tape for torn waterproofs/bivi/basha etc. Button compass as a back up, string, cord, safety pins, spare lighter flints, batteries, plasters stuff like that.
This ceases to be a survival kit as such but is useful in all sorts of every day places as well as on a hillside when your bergen strap decides to tear loose. This is carried in addition to whatever kit is deliberately taken on a trip.
When out walking it is only sensible to carry specific walking safety gear such as a poly bag and whistle just like a life preserver is required on the water. (Mobile phones are notoriously bad at getting a signal in the mountains but still worth having with you)
Food and water are a basic part of a pack as far as I’m concerned. My vehicle is always stocked for a stopover of a few days as a matter of course (Three flakes of snow or a bunch of angry farmers and this country just grinds to a halt.)
I have a natural tendency to carry stuff that might come in handy, my pockets usually contain a variety of useful bits of kit such as a SAK, torch and windproof lighter and if I’m working I’ve got a whole variety of ancient tools to use too.
I think the disaster scenario so beloved of “survivalists” is a red herring really. An excuse to arm themselves with all sorts of heavy duty stuff waiting for a doomsday that will probably catch them out as much as anyone else. The Vikings had an attitude which roughly translates as “It’s better to be lucky than rich.” and I think this could be said just as much about equipment as money.
Make you right there Wayland - a lucky beginner with no training or kit can survival anything just as well as an unlucky so called expert kitted out with the finest brands of kit going!
As the saxons used to say - death finds us all in the end, but only a true man will great it was a smile on his face!
Heres to Luck!
NickBristol
06-05-2005, 15:27
Having been down the E&E route with my first few kits, my tobacco tin kits have diversified from one small generic kit to a few small specialist kits. I do keep a tin for the typical emergency stuff but it's so wrapped up in duct tape to keep it as a last resort I've never had to open it in anger.
I'm not mentally relying on it ever as I know from experience of going through a selection once that you may think you're going fully kitted out on an E&E but then finding yourself stripped and handed a pair of Dunlop Green Flash :eek: , a trenchcoat and a knife (as in knife, fork and spoon!) and told to scarper is an eye-opener in not relying on kit....
Nowadays I carry separate tobacco tins for firelighting (full of tinder mostly), a repair kit for clothing, bergans, boots etc, first aid (as a supplement to the main kit in my pack) and not all on my person at any one time. I completely agree with Wayland that they've ceased to become a PSK but are now small collections of very useful items for everyday use.
For an alternative take on survival kit:
http://www.mapsgroup.org/survival_on_the_run.htm
Maybe a bit off topic but I thought it was interesting
Nowadays I carry separate tobacco tins for firelighting (full of tinder mostly), a repair kit for clothing, bergans, boots etc, first aid (as a supplement to the main kit in my pack) and not all on my person at any one time..
Just as well Nick or you'd either rattle when you walk or go rusty in the rain!!
Great discussion, gents. Probably the most true to life discussion on the topic I have seen. The only need for a "survival kit" that I have seen is an unexpected night or two in the mountains resulting from conditions or a mishap during a day hike. Even then, you will most likely bring the gear you need on a routine basis. You could call that your "tool " kit. What you don't have, you do without or improvise. If it's a longer hike, you will have the gear you need to get along.
Steve
For an alternative take on survival kit:
http://www.mapsgroup.org/survival_on_the_run.htm
Maybe a bit off topic but I thought it was interesting
Now were getting on to possibles bags and pouches Bob!!
One last thought on survival kits - when I used to carry one I was always of the mind set I couldnt use it as it wasnt an emergency and I am convinced in a real emergency I probably still wouldnt have opened it as I carried every thing I needed on my as well as the kit! But a possibles bag/pouch is more like a working survival kit in as much as the items in it are used daily and yet are always there is needed - to my mind this makes more sense than some wannabe SAS kit full of gizmo's made in china (thats the off the shelt jobbies not ones designed by yourself - at least I hope not).
NickBristol
06-05-2005, 15:49
Just as well Nick or you'd either rattle when you walk or go rusty in the rain!!
I never rattle... I'm very sneaky :D
I noticed just the other day that I'm still in the habit of rearranging my pockets and pack to not rattle. It just becomes second nature after a while, even when there's no-one else to hear it.
Now were getting on to possibles bags and pouches Bob!!
But a possibles bag/pouch is more like a working survival kit in as much as the items in it are used daily and yet are always there is needed
As I said maybe a bit off topic though I agree with your point of possibles pouch as a working survival kit.
I noticed just the other day that I'm still in the habit of rearranging my pockets and pack to not rattle. It just becomes second nature after a while, even when there's no-one else to hear it.
Aint that the truth - I still wrap stuff in old towels and such before packing them in my billy and other metallic containers - still personaly I find my field craft is still as good as it ever was and all the little 'habits' I brought from the army can only be for the best!
Celtic Dragon
06-05-2005, 17:04
Aint that the truth - I still wrap stuff in old towels and such before packing them in my billy and other metallic containers - still personaly I find my field craft is still as good as it ever was and all the little 'habits' I brought from the army can only be for the best!
You ain't the only 1 mate. Whilst I was only a cadet (I wanted to join but a buggered knee meant I'd fail the bft) I still do the same. The less noise we make, the more we see. Unlike the noisy (both sound and colour) rabble we all meet who don't see a blind thing.
Fieldcraft also helps in the trapping and hunting and tracking side of our hobby, as we have a better understanding.
Always pack kit to eradicate the rattle. Give it 5 or 10 minutes of Tink-tink-tink-tink and you will be going mad!! It will spoil your outing, so always stop it before it starts!
arctic hobo
06-05-2005, 18:52
I've learnt the same, not from the army but deer-stalking and in nature photography. Keep silent and upwind, fine, but if your axe/keys/metal object suddenly goes crash, you're stuck!
It’s interesting that our pursuit of nature and wilderness apparently harks back so much to a warrior culture.
We learn many techniques and habits from our brothers in arms. Our equipment often bears the marks and looks of the quartermasters stores, and even our maps and positioning systems were created primarily for the military.
I step out into the wild most often as a landscape photographer and I wear natural colours so that any other photographer like myself, viewing a landscape with me in it, would not have to wait half an hour for a bright orange anorak to move out of frame. At least that is what I try to tell myself.
How true is that I wonder? I do not hunt or photograph wildlife so I am normally unconcerned with quarry, indeed many creatures do not even have the same colour perception as humans, motion is the usual give away.
In the wilderness, high visibility clothing would be the wise choice but I choose to blend with my surroundings. The truth is, I suspect, that I would simply be uncomfortable sticking out, like a sore thumb, in bright colours.
Old habits perhaps?
We often strive to separate ourselves from the “wanabe SAS” types so that we may be taken seriously and not considered a threat by the public, but often our appearance, equipment and language convey exactly that impression.
Why is this I wonder?
Squidders
06-05-2005, 21:11
I don't have an emergency kit as such... my bushcrafting seems to be a series of small emergencies. I have a small pouch for items I use when i'm not in an emergency state... it contains cigars.
Motorbike Man
06-05-2005, 22:11
I don't have an emergency kit as such... my bushcrafting seems to be a series of small emergencies. I have a small pouch for items I use when i'm not in an emergency state... it contains cigars.
Sorry Squidders, but that did make me chuckle ;)
ChrisKavanaugh
07-05-2005, 02:31
A proper PSK is merely a last ditch backup in extremis if a normal kit or survival supplies are lost through misfortune, ie your plane crashes in a lake and you swim out with only the clothes on your back. At least that was the standard Hollywood script before Bart the Bear ambled in on cue, growled at Brad Pitt, Anthony Hopkins or Darryl Hanna and earned his human's kids another semester at Uni :D I carry mine in the oft chance I wind up in a unplanned situation and my dedicated kit is at home in the closet. As such, the tools and supplies are of neccessity smaller. The button compass really was a button in WW2 RAF uniforms for concealment. The accuracy is actually more than adequate for rough navigation. Some of the items seem more forlorn hope than usefull. I always figured if I can keep a tin secured in a pocket a quality folder can be there too. This business of razorblades seems usefull only if suicide becomes an option :eek: and the tiny candies, soup cubes and single teabags seem to be the condemned man's last supper after finding the desert holds no fish for the vial holding hooks, weights and leaders. There is a viable customer base for PSKs though. Those gently bewildered souls who blunder off the asphalt expecting nature to be a halcyon park with soda machines and clearly marked exits. These people are not going to have a woodlore knife, firesteel or even proper clothing. So, a kit they can slip, or have slipped into a pocket with clear instructions and the essentials to keep them alive and (hopefully) found quickly are valid.
Chris those people who venture into the wilds looking at a theme park are probably better off not making it out again!
Remember natures old adage - survival of the fittest,
that doesnt just mean he who can run 10 miles! Maybe we modern humans should change it for such occasions and say,
Survival of the un-thickest!
The danger is that those "gently bewildered souls" are more likely to think they do have the proper tools for survival because that's what it says on the tin.
What they need is sensible equipment packaged and marketed the same way.
Wayland to problem there is cost!
The MK4 individual survival kit issued to RAF and special forces guys is available commercially - but it isnt cheap because it has a better quality of gear in it.
While the combat survival tin is more readily available and cheaper - in a 'it'll never happen to me' world people go for the cheaper option.
ChrisKavanaugh
08-05-2005, 05:52
O.K. A shameless plug for the ETS kit being marketed. If you pop over to our website www.equippedtosurvive.org Doug has written an extensive review of every commercial kit that is,or has been on the market. Doug recently was involved as advisor for an ETS promoted basic kit by Aeromedix. Keeping the extremely basic items to top standards while meeting a marketable sales cost AND making a profit was the hardest part. Many of my example's items quickly found their way into my B.C.B. tin and Doug's instructions are superb compared to many I've read ( if included.) The first reaction from our forum was a list of gear that should have been included, and which would have destroyed the target price. The instructions do encourage people to add to the basic unit itself. Tony has expressed an interest in marketing the kit through BCUK.
Yes a good kit for a real survival situation Chris but the kit I was thinking of was aimed more at the inexperienced walker/hiker type that gets in over his/her head because they are either stupid or not the bushcraft/survival type.
The danger is that these people buy kits like this and then think they are equipped to survive in the wilderness without the gear that will really keep them alive for the first 48 hours it may take a rescue team to find them.
How about a vacuum packed mylar coated “space blanket” bag, big enough to climb into if they are stupid enough not to be carrying their own poly survival bag. If they do have a poly bag it will give them even more insulation.
A whistle is a must of course and the heliograph good too but what about an LED strobe light with a battery capable of running it for about 48 hours (4 nights use)
Your observation about packing matches or a lighter are good for shipping but in the absence of these, instructions should include packing the kit with a butane lighter as this is simple enough for any fool to use.
Possibly the most important addition would be a pad of pre printed route cards and instructions on how to use them. This would mean somebody would know they were missing or overdue and where they are supposed to be. This would be packed outside the kit but inside the kit should be some simple instructions about what to do and what not to do while waiting for rescue.
Water purification tablets may be of limited use but they may just convince someone that it is safe to drink some water long enough to keep them alive. They can always be properly treated when they are found. Lets face it, in most cases if they are not found within 3-4 days most of these people will be dead anyway.
A few other items such as fuel blocks could be included as space allows.
Marketing such a kit in the high street camping shops might just save the lives of such people who die regularly not just from lack of bushcraft skills and equipment but also from gross stupidity and ignorance.
Yes a good kit for a real survival situation Chris but the kit I was thinking of was aimed more at the inexperienced walker/hiker type that gets in over his/her head because they are either stupid or not the bushcraft/survival type.
The danger is that these people buy kits like this and then think they are equipped to survive in the wilderness without the gear that will really keep them alive for the first 48 hours it may take a rescue team to find them.
How about a vacuum packed mylar coated “space blanket” bag, big enough to climb into if they are stupid enough not to be carrying their own poly survival bag. If they do have a poly bag it will give them even more insulation.
A whistle is a must of course and the heliograph good too but what about an LED strobe light with a battery capable of running it for about 48 hours (4 nights use)
Your observation about packing matches or a lighter are good for shipping but in the absence of these, instructions should include packing the kit with a butane lighter as this is simple enough for any fool to use.
Possibly the most important addition would be a pad of pre printed route cards and instructions on how to use them. This would mean somebody would know they were missing or overdue and where they are supposed to be. This would be packed outside the kit but inside the kit should be some simple instructions about what to do and what not to do while waiting for rescue.
Water purification tablets may be of limited use but they may just convince someone that it is safe to drink some water long enough to keep them alive. They can always be properly treated when they are found. Lets face it, in most cases if they are not found within 3-4 days most of these people will be dead anyway.
A few other items such as fuel blocks could be included as space allows.
Marketing such a kit in the high street camping shops might just save the lives of such people who die regularly not just from lack of bushcraft skills and equipment but also from gross stupidity and ignorance.
you mean something like this?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v342/bearclaw/aircrew.jpg
The MK4 kit is another good kit for the well informed in an extreme situation but it goes far beyond the requirements of our "gently bewildered souls" hence the cost.
My first actions before giving such a kit to such wilderness challenged individuals would be to remove all sharp items that they could harm themselves with and replace all the firelighting stuff except the tablets with a disposable lighter.
I suppose the one advantage with the flint and steel over a lighter is that since they would have little chance of using them properly at least they wouldn’t need to rescued out of the middle of a forest fire. :rolleyes:
The MK4 kit is another good kit for the well informed in an extreme situation but it goes far beyond the requirements of our "gently bewildered souls" hence the cost.
My first actions before giving such a kit to such wilderness challenged individuals would be to remove all sharp items that they could harm themselves with and replace all the firelighting stuff except the tablets with a disposable lighter.
I suppose the one advantage with the flint and steel over a lighter is that since they would have little chance of using them properly at least they wouldn’t need to rescued out of the middle of a forest fire. :rolleyes:
Take away the sharps eh! Well people like that have no business going into the wilds - or if they do them leave em in their and let em at least prove useful as a meal for some beasty or another cos they'd be a waste of rations in the real world.
Did I forget to mention taking all their footware off them too. ;)
Did I forget to mention taking all their footware off them too. ;)
Well at least their boot laces!!
Spacemonkey
08-05-2005, 15:54
Never fear, for most in this country never stray more than 100m from the nearest car park...
Funnily enough, in late teens I made my own survival tin, out of basic items that wouldn't 'keep me alive on the run' but are the little things that come in handy, and are all in the same place so can be easily found. Over the years things changed around in there, but a few weeks back when going to Dartmoor with a friend for the first time (with him, that is) I got it out and we went through it. Amazingly, some of the original stuff was still in there, but so much had been used and replaced over the years. It is mainly a mini first aid kit along with water treatment, fire lighting and that sort of thing, but carried more as a compact back up in case the main article goes wrong. I even use bits of it in the home, like medication, when stuff on the shelves run out. So it's more of a 'survive the day' kit for me. However, in this country, there are very few places that can truly be called wild, especially in the South. Further afield, things get a little different, and in some harsher environments, a back up kit, tailor made for the situation could certainly prove useful when it all goes pear shaped. I do trust that these off the shelf kits do include instrucions on basic survival aimed at the novices who buy them? All the cool kit in the world is useless if you don't know how to use them, or practice...
Someone mentioned about the fact that some of us, myself included, look like SAS wannabes when out in the wilds. Don't know, but could it be, like you say, that we want to blend in with the environment instead of stand out in our bright designer outdoor clothing from the high street like the RA? I've always preferred military kit as it is functional and cheapish. I also track and stalk wildlife to watch it, and greens and DPM certainly help in this respect! Whenever i go out, I make every effort to ensure that nobody knows I've been there, purely for the reason that I don't want to spoil the countryside for anyone else or the animals that live in it. Whenever i can drag my girlfriend away from the West End and into the West Country, she always misses the wild life that I spot. Although this could be not because of the clothing, but more because she is too worried about stepping in something and too busy looking at her feet to notice anything around her!
The Vikings had an attitude which roughly translates as “It’s better to be lucky than rich.” and I think this could be said just as much about equipment as money.
...and should be combined with the adage about wise men making their own luck :D
I always carry:
FAK - usual suspects PLUS an eye bath from an Optrex bottle
Tin with:
Sewing kit including a 12" bit of velcro (yes, both halves :rolleyes: ) and some cable ties (biker sewing :cool: )
Fire kit - waterproof matches, clipper lighter, firesteel, birchbark
String, penknife, compass in pockets (plus marbles, conkers, spider in a matchbox, Dennis the Menace badge &c)
Even when at work in the orifice, 'cos then I'll have them when I need them.
The velcro keeps getting pinched for routing cables, though :o
Car's allus full of tat, stoves, tools and fishing rods anyhow...
Jim.
So I think we agree that the personal survival kit is a toy best left out of the hands of the "wilderness challenged" so that leaves three end user types.
The first is use by military/aviation/marine types who may well find themselves in extreme circumstances.
Second we have the slightly paranoid, survivalist types who believe that at any moment they may be catapulted into a “First blood” / ”Deliverance” scenario and only have the well prepared contents of their pockets to sustain them.
And thirdly:
I agree with everything that Gary says but still have to admit that thinking about and making survival kits is just great fun.
I do believe I would have to place myself firmly in this category. On a rainy afternoon, when the wilderness seems far away, it is good fun to see just what can be fitted into a tin on the possibility that it might just come in useful someday.
...and should be combined with the adage about wise men making their own luck :D
I always carry:
FAK - usual suspects PLUS an eye bath from an Optrex bottle
Tin with:
Sewing kit including a 12" bit of velcro (yes, both halves :rolleyes: ) and some cable ties (biker sewing :cool: )
Fire kit - waterproof matches, clipper lighter, firesteel, birchbark
String, penknife, compass in pockets (plus marbles, conkers, spider in a matchbox, Dennis the Menace badge &c)
Even when at work in the orifice, 'cos then I'll have them when I need them.
The velcro keeps getting pinched for routing cables, though :o
Car's allus full of tat, stoves, tools and fishing rods anyhow...
Jim.
I think you have my pockets and car! :eek:
Except one time it was a fag packet of glow worms, it seemed a good idea at the time, but as it was till in my pocket next morning it was a pack full of mush :(
Spacemonkey
08-05-2005, 22:30
And thirdly:
I do believe I would have to place myself firmly in this category. On a rainy afternoon, when the wilderness seems far away, it is good fun to see just what can be fitted into a tin on the possibility that it might just come in useful someday.
Exactly! Perfect for the Rainy Sunday Armchair Expedition...
Let's face it-the only time anyone with any experience would actually need a kit like this is when you wouldn't have it-like a plane crash for example, or as I use it for-as a backup for when the main kit fails.
IMHO, Altoids Tin style kits are good fun but mostly a waste of time and a weirdly big lump to carry in your pocket! Saddest thing is you have got all this really juicy gear in your tin and you will probably never use it!! Nato Brass Button Compasses, mini firelighting steels, sharp scalpel blades, fishing kit!!! As in a kit within a kit within a kit!!!! Oh My God! This is military E & E Gear in a civilian bushcraft format. My "survival kit / gear" is stuff I use every time I go bush, I know it all intimately. My "possibles" are not strange little critters sealed up in a crypt like tin. Bushcrafters should as much as possible become as one with their natural environment (pardon the cliche) and the few very important tools they need to live within this environment should be an integrated extension of themselves and not a last ditch life support type hand grenade for dire "emergencies".
innocent bystander
09-05-2005, 08:28
If we swapped the word "survival tin" for "possible's tin" would that change anyones view ? My thinking being that most have a possible's pouch, which i suppose could be survived on in extremis, so a possible's tin would be a scaled down version of the pouch. Purely in the spirit of inquiry you understand.. :)
The difference is you dip your hand in your pouch or bag and pull out the appropriate tool! With the tin you fish it out your pocket, peel off the tape, may be unroll the paracord as well, lever off the lid and then have 40 bits of anally minute kit explode forth in to your lap!!! :) You then fish out your scalpel blade to skin your caribou or fill your condom with creek water and away you go!!! Afterwards you gotta pack it all back in the tin, seal it up, pocket it and move on!!! :rolleyes: :) Oetzi really did have the right idea!!! :D
innocent bystander
09-05-2005, 10:04
But if you didn't have 400 items squished in to the density of a black hole -then it could almost be useful - if limited to purely useful items only say. You know the kind a thing, spare puritabs, small folder, firelighting gear, and it could be easily opened. But then that's what a few have already said.
I'll get my coat... :D
Bushcrafters should as much as possible become as one with their natural environment (pardon the cliche)
The assumption is that people only go into the bush to do bushcraft which is just sheer bullcrap.
I've always enjoyed making up Altoid tin PSKs, really just for the fun of it, but I have adapted one as an 'urban Altoid tin' or UAT ( :rolleyes: ) which I carry in an inside jacket pocket. Most of the 'survival' stuff has been replaced with useful bits and pieces for every day requirements, like a sewing kit, safety pins, antiseptic wipes and plasters, a roll of bandage, ibuprofen and antihistamines, etc. I've left the PSK Lifeboat matches in there as I figure they might come in handy. The whole thing is topped off with a Swisscard which I like knowing is there in case I forget my SAK.
This UAT complements the other stuff I carry like the aforementioned SAK, a small torch (Nuwai QIII) and Spyderco UK Penknife, or a lockknife if I have a good reason to carry it.
Unlike my traditional PSKs I reckon I use stuff from the kit every week, both for myself and for others. It's amazing the number of female students who need a plaster because their new stilettos are chafing their ankle!
:D
Danzo
.........and it is of course kept in the left hand inside jacket pocket. In case of snipers.
;)
Danzo
It's amazing the number of female students who need a plaster because their new stilettos are chafing their ankle!
Danzo
That's how I get talking to girls :rolleyes:
I never went in for carrying a tin as such but I do carry a few first aid basics (gloves, face mask and tap) in my pocket anlong with a penknife. I hate having a lot of things in one place though so it's spread about in my combat trousers.
It seems the difference between the possible pouch/possible items and a survival kit is that we don't mind extra space which means we can pack them away a lot better
.........and it is of course kept in the left hand inside jacket pocket. In case of snipers.
;)
Danzo
Along with your Book of Common Prayer or Bible no doubt.
Hoodoo wrote:-
"The assumption is that people only go into the bush to do bushcraft which is just sheer bullcrap"
Yes Hoodoo but I'm not sure what you mean because my comments re Altoids type kits are not directed at all outdoors people but in the context of bushcrafters, this being a bushcraft forum and all! If you do note I am specifically referring to bushcrafters in my posts.
zackerty
10-05-2005, 01:00
Whilst I have at least 12 PSK's of varying desciptions and needs, I always have a Swisstool, SAK, Cig lighter, 550 cord (10metres), Arc LSH torch and spare cells, with me...driving, in the office, at home at night, in the bush.
If I am travelling long distance ( longer than 100kms, don't laugh) I carry my belt kit, with a body bag, plastic tubing, more cord, a tin/two tins of salmon, more sharps, more torches and cells, fire lighters, water, and sundry goodies.
I once went to visit someone, who forgot the appointment...I was 120kms from civilisation, and I thought they might be a little late, so I stayed. The tin of salmon, the water, a handcarved teak spoon, and a couple of peppermints filled in the time...
I returned home annoyed, but my belly was satisfied. :)
I usually replace the water every two weeks, and the salmon every 6 months.
IMHO, Altoids Tin style kits are good fun but mostly a waste of time and a weirdly big lump to carry in your pocket! Saddest thing is you have got all this really juicy gear in your tin and you will probably never use it!! Nato Brass Button Compasses, mini firelighting steels, sharp scalpel blades, fishing kit!!! As in a kit within a kit within a kit!!!! Oh My God! This is military E & E Gear in a civilian bushcraft format. My "survival kit / gear" is stuff I use every time I go bush, I know it all intimately. My "possibles" are not strange little critters sealed up in a crypt like tin. Bushcrafters should as much as possible become as one with their natural environment (pardon the cliche) and the few very important tools they need to live within this environment should be an integrated extension of themselves and not a last ditch life support type hand grenade for dire "emergencies".
GOOD words mate, a psk and a possibles pouch are two different things as has been said earlier in the thread. The bushcraft only the ill trained/adivsed would look to a psk Ithats not a tin with all there odds and sods in it but a taped and seal survival kit I am talking about)
While a possibles pouch contains items used daily but that without which life in the bush isnt possible (hence the name) or at least easy. An added bonis of such a pouch over a psk is that in using it daily to learn to use it fully - a sealed tins contents only come to light in an emergency when fine motor skills could be hampered and as such unfamiliarity can be a greater danger than you'd believe.
As for Hoodoo's comments about people going bush - of course they dont, many people live and work in the bush all the time (lets remembers most city dwellers only dabble in the wilderness) but I bet you hardly any of them carry a PSK because most dress for the correct enviroment and carry the tools they know how to use correctly - their every day kit is their survival kit.
Thanks Gary!!
Spent your early days in Epping Forest eh mate??? Tell me have you ever been to Loughton and had a pint in The Gunmakers Arms??? It's just around the corner from Epping Forest!!!
Thanks Gary!!
Spent your early days in Epping Forest eh mate??? Tell me have you ever been to Loughton and had a pint in The Gunmakers Arms??? It's just around the corner from Epping Forest!!!
I've never been the Loughton and had a pint in the gunmakers - or the royal oak! ;)
I've had several!!!
When are peoplesupposed to use these survival kits?
If there is a plane crash I am probably not alone there will be lots of bagages to go throught to find what I need. Most planecrashes happens when the plane takes off or go in for lanfing.
When hiking, you loose your rucksack and that will only mean that you have made something really stupid to lose it. If I get lost or need to spen a night out I will have the things I need in my rucksack or otherwise my knife is always on me so is a firesteel, whistle, tinder poch and some sweets. Civilisation is normally never far away and if doing an expedition far away from civilisation I will carry the necessary equpment to be able to contact rescue.
Preparation is probably the best survival kit you can carry.
Preparation is probably the best survival kit you can carry.
Tempered with a little common sense.
I like small "survival kits" and I've found them handy numerous times over the past 40 years. I've carried one form or another ever since I was a kid in the scouts. But I'm a firm believer in a using kit, not one you stow away and forget about, although there are things I carry that I rarely use (like a whistle, for instance). I especially loathe the kind you buy that are sealed like a can of sardines. If you are not using your kit, you probably won't know how to use it.
If you spend a lot of time out hunting, fishing, birding, etc., it just makes sense to carry a small kit, even if you have no intention of using the stuff in it. But I've used stuff from my small kits many times. I once repaired a friends fishing rod with duct tape. Saved us a 2 mile trek and a portage. Is duct tape bushcrafty? Used it to fix the frame on someone's eyeglasses once. I've used the needle and thread countless times for repairs. I had a friend who ripped his hip belt on his backpack and the little three-cornered needle and heavy sewing thread, combined with my leatherman pliers, enabled me to repair his hipbelt with no problem. I can recall a pile of sewing jobs over the years, from tents and tarps to buttons and pants.
I've been separated from my friends while grouse and mushroom hunting and pulled out the whistle so I didn't have to yell to let them know where I was. I've also used the whistle to help a bird dog who got too far out, come back and find us, so it gets used once in a great while. I've used the button compass to find my way out of a woods at night during a squirrel hunt when I got a little too far back in a familiar woods and stayed out a little too late. It was the only compass I had because the woods was relatively small and familiar but I was glad I had it because it saved me some time wandering around in the dark. The compass got me to my truck quickly. My little microlight was handy too. Are those acceptable to the bushcraft PC police? Trip and fall over a root in the dark, hit your head on a rock, you could be out for awhile--or worse. I've used snare wire for all kinds of repairs and used it to make a fishing rod tip on a willow wand. I've used the small 1/8" ferro rod and tinder to start fires many times.
I tend to think of my little kits as gear, not necesarily as last resort tools and use them to supplement the rest of my kit although I see nothing wrong with having backup gear for the times when you don't carry a "possibles pouch." For day hikes, I almost always pack an all weather space blanket and sil poncho. A cup and a water bottle. A vile of iodine crystals. A med kit. A good knife. But there are many times I go into the woods to work and play and the only extra gear I carry is a small tin of survival goodies and a knife. That happens when you may have to carry a pile of other gear like photographic equipment, research gear, climbing ladders, computers, field guides, binoculars and spotting scopes, video equipment, or maybe a double barrel and a load of shot shells, rain gear and a jacket, lunch, and plenty of water. My intention is not to spend my time snaring animals or starting fires but you can bet there's a compass, a whistle, a spool of snare wire, the means for fire , and a few other goodies in my little kit, none of which I have any intention of using. My intention is to hunt grouse, not whittle spoons and pretend I'm an Indian, although I find that great fun as well, but not when I'm grouse hunting.
Last year, over 1,000,000 deer hunters took to the woods here in Michigan alone. I'd be very surprised if more than a small percentage of them took much survival gear whatsoever into the woods and since I know quite a few, I can make that statement with reasonable confidence. In fact, I know TOO MANY hunters like that. That number is just for gun hunters. There were also over 300,000 bowhunters (again in Michigan alone). And then you have small game hunters, fishermen, dayhikers, loggers, backpackers, trail maintenance people, birders, surveyors, research scientists, skiiers, mountain bikers, snowshoers (very trendy now among yuppies) etc., all heading into the wilds and you can bet that precious few have a possibles pouch because most of them have zero interest in bushcraft. But if they get lost, just the tools to get a simple fire going might be the difference between hypothermia and not, i.e., living and dying.
Several years ago after just finishing a week long backpacking trip I was driving down a dirt road leaving the trail head when I saw a young man and woman emerge from the woods. It was near total darkness. They were lost. They had been day hiking and somehow got off the trail and got turned around. They had zero gear with them, except an empty water bottle. Not even a flashlight (which might have been handy to signal a passing car since I almost missed seeing them myself). It was a cool spring night and they were chilled to the bone. I put them in my car and fired up the heater and as I sat there talking to them, the girl’s uncle came driving by who had been cruising the roads for hours looking for them. They were lucky. It doesn't always end that way. The best kit is still the one between your ears but building a small survival kit (or if you want to call it a possibles kit, so be it... :) ) takes forethought and planning and is a good exercise for anyone who spends time in the outdoors. The last thing I would do is try to discourage people from building these small kits or purchasing good ones like the kind Doug Ritter sells. The more you encourage this kind of activity, perhaps the more people will spend time learning how to use their little kits and who knows, it might even spark an interest in bushcraft.
How's that for timing....
Just had a hose come loose on the van and there in my newly repacked useful bits tin was the snare wire I have carried for about 15 years. Just right to replace the hose clip to get me home.
Now what were we saying......
This thread definitely makes one ponder.
Personally, I often think of my survival tin as like Pratchett's Axe of the Dwarves, with three new handles and four new axe-heads. Really, if the stuff in it isn't being used and replaced, the motivation to carry it fails. I have four ex-tin sewing kits floating around...
To me, the most essential function of the tin is to provide an easy source of three technologies: blades, fire, cordage. You'd probably get all you need with an SAK, bic lighter and a length of paracord, but where's the fun in that?
I say, long live survival kits! But wearing decent clothes and getting off the hills before the weather closes in is probably better than any kit.
Like most of the people on this thread I have made up "survival tin" kits since I was a kid - and had a lot of fun doing it.
A while ago I came across an online article by a Neil Andrews - I wonder if he is a member of this list? - which changed my attitude to how I carry what I need and to rethink what I need.
I started with Neil's ideas and over time my set up has evolved (and still is).
Have a read, it really did change the way I think about what I carry.
http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=103
A good test for the contents of an emergency tin is to take it into the wilds and live with only the tin for a couple of days. You then have a realistic basis for reviewing the contents.
Great Pebble
30-05-2005, 20:32
Wouldn't recommend it without a full "normal" kit along as well.
It's designed to help with getting you out of the smelly stuff, to give you maybe just the wee bit of an edge you need not to expire.
Putting yourself in a position in which you're relying on it solely, on purpose, is irresponsible.
I agree with Great Pebble. Don't put yourself in harm's way needlessly. Anytime you go into the bush you can test yourself by showing restraint in the gear that you use. But if you go the minimalist route and screw up (say you eat the wrong thing and poison yourself or you get stung by a bee and go into shock, become hypothermic, etc.) you could find yourself in an unintended real survival situation and no resources to fall back on. This kind of stuff does happen, even to the experts.
The most thorough treatment of the topic of survival kits I've ever read is John McCann's new book "Build the Perfect Survival Kit." Well written and well researched. It's top notch. It's obvious he put a lot of work into it and has tested the gear thoroughly. However, for plain ol' common sense about survival and survival kits, it's hard to beat Cody Lundin's book "98.6 degrees." Not much bushcraft in it but lots of common sense advice. And common sense sometimes ain't so common. :)
I have to agree with the "common sense" people here.
When in the wilds, what will save you is not a survival kit (which probably is forgotten back at the house or burned up in the carwreck you just climbed out of :) but your wits, knowledge and foremost security in your own skills.
Now, for minimalistic gear configuration however i'm all for it, again tempered with common sense =) On one extreme you have the people who tries to go out and "survive" with as little kit as possible and on the other side you have the guys who looks and sounds like a christmastree decorated by a deranged bushcraft'er who sampled the wrong mushroom ;P
Again i would like to draw to a practise commonly found among technical divers which i've found is very useful in all forms of equipment configuration. If there is ANY piece of kit that you cannot explain why it is essential for you to carry it and how you should use it, it probably shouldn't be in the pack. In short, if you can't answer "I need this because without this, it will be impossible for me to get food, set camp, call for help, patch a wound, etc." then it should probably not be brought. The pack you end up with is what you can call your "base" pack. This is a pack you would be able to go out and make a quite decent stay in the woods if this is all you brought. All you add to this are to be considered "perks" & Luxuries.
Now, this idea does not say you should not luxuries, but rather make sure you do have your base needs covered first. It will bring down your pack size considerably.
Finally, i suspect most of you seasoned forest-bears out there do this out of experience and old habit without thinking of it, but for us newbies this type of thinking might get us into the "right frame of mind".
Great Pebble
31-05-2005, 09:27
Many years ago, when I was youngster we used to have "survival" trips.
Friday, post work/school (yes that long ago) we'd head to a suitable bit of woodland on the bus, put up tents, fill with normal camping accoutrements light a fire, have a few beers and a bit of a laugh.
Saturday morning the tents came down and were packed away along with everything else into rucksacks. The rucks were then attached to para cord and hoisted over a bough.
So Saturday was spent with the contents of 'baccy tin and pockets making shelter, catching/aquiring food and living with the results.
Sunday morning there was time for a bit more foraging or some other exercise before the shelters were broken up and the rucks retrieved, usually the first action was to break out the beans & bacon or whatever and get them on the stove before heading off home again.
Hoisting the rucks off the ground was more psychological than anything else. You had to admit that you were beaten and let it down before you could cheat. But, in any grave extreme the stuff was there.
bob_the_bomb
11-10-2008, 05:27
Hi everyone
Some interesting stuff on here. I left the green machine many years ago but still work in odd places around the world. I find most of my work involves day trips from the accommodation but with the ever-present risk of the vehicle not coming back/breaking down. So I thought about how to use the old E+E survival kit I had at home (Note: "at home"!). I realised that carrying snares etc didnt make much sense. I wasnt trying to avoid the people looking for me (well, not most of the time) just staying alive until found. So it seems perhaps the focus for a 'civvie' PSK is something to use for when a day trip inadvertently turns into an overnighter. Again this is climate and context dependent, and any foray into the bush should have, for example, drinking water and waterproofs as a standard, so this pouch/pocket/tin would be for the extra rather than the normal requirement. So, no snares, condoms saw razor blade in this kit.
So I now carry:
Firelighting kit. Flint/steel, large wax crayon, lifeboat matches in waterproof tube, innertube loops.
Water purification. Potassium Permanganate, small stocking as light milbank bag. Tube of camelbak 'elixir' powder.
Protection. Vacuum packed survival bag.
Location. Button compass.
Food. 2 tubes of emegency ration tablets.
This is small enough to fit in a camera pouch on the side of my daysack that carries all my 'standard' kit such as camelbak, waterproofs, camera, phone, maglite, leatherman, hank of paracord etc (wont bore you with the total list as you guys seem to know your business already). I also carry as standard a little strepsils tin (even smaller than an Altoids!) which has the sewing kit, spare buttons, cable ties, tweezers.
phaserrifle
11-10-2008, 09:14
personaly I like my tobacco tin survival kit, but when I carry it I think that my brew kit and survival bag are going to be far more use.
so mainly it's a fun bit of kit to play around with, and only realy any use when I finaly do a proper scouts survival camp (when they go through your bag leaving you with a sleeping bag, toothbrush, waterproofs and a spare pair of socks!!!)
Tor helge
11-10-2008, 11:00
I don`t carry a PSK at all. The gear I am carrying with me is my PSK.
I`ve seen much arguing about loosing your gear (knife, pack, etc.) but I have been out in the woods for about 35 years, read various outdoor magazines, newspapers and so on.
There seems that NO person in Norway has died from loosing their pack (I have never heard about anyone who lost their pack either), knife or other items in the wild.
Those who have died have mostly done it because they were sick (heart desease) or just lacked the knowledge, not the gear (having inadequate gear is also lack of knowledge).
I can see no need for carrying a special PSK in the woods. Maybe if you are at war, but I`m seldom at war:) .
Tor
I agree with Tor, very good reply
This is a blast from the past isn't it?
korvin karbon
11-10-2008, 17:43
This is a blast from the past isn't it?
did you get your van fixed or the snare wire still holding up LOL
It held for a while but I did replace it with a decent clip after a bit...:D
Exploriment
14-10-2008, 18:15
Like others in this thread, I've been building little survival tins for a long time. They are above all, a fun exercise. But somewhere along the way I realized that a few solid pieces of necessary kit are what I use all the time anyway. As fun as a small tin may be, real kit is a much better proposition. I realize that for the vast majority of my situations, a fishing and snare kit is completely useless. But I do still keep a very small tin in my pocket when I head out. It's tiny, and weighs very little. What I like about it is that it serves as a back up. I have a good compass, but if I should lose it or it's damaged, I have a replacement. I have a really solid lighter, but if it runs out of fuel, or I lose it, I have a small Bic as a replacement. I have a proper knife, but if I should lose it, I have a small SAK in there.
I like the adage that One is None and Two is One. None of the stuff in the tin would be my first choice, but I like the idea that I have a backup.
I don't see it as being off subject, I believe that it is right on. Much the same if I remember correctly that many of the old time trappers carried into Indian territory, along with 50 pounds of flour, and a cooking pot and that was to last them the entire trapping season, late fall through winter. Every thing else they needed was made from what they had available. I forgot to mention they also had their rifle, balls and powder.
For an alternative take on survival kit:
http://www.mapsgroup.org/survival_on_the_run.htm
Maybe a bit off topic but I thought it was interesting
So I was wondering…..If you carry such a personal emergency kit, for what purposes have you really designed it?[/quote]
Yes I carry a kit, although I can get by about anywhere with nothing, I still consider a kit as necessary. Without a kit, if car went off into a river or lake in freezing weather. I wouldn't have time to find all the materials to make a fire quickly, with the kit, all I need is to find dry fuel. I have a kit in the car also, but could I get to it in the above example, doubtful. If I had everything in a backpack in the back seat, again would I have time to get it?
So my kit consists of firesteel and striker, everlight tinder, a button compass, a button led light, a roll of dental floss, 3 #4 fish hooks and 3 #6 fish hooks, 4 split shot, 3 swivels, a flat whistle, a small mirror (out of a woman's compact), a knife made from a jigsaw blade and another jigsaw blade left as a saw, one of the better camando wire saws, and 4 water purifying tabs and 2 quart zip lock bags. All of this fits into a case made for the folding reading glasses. It fits in a front pocket of my jeans along with my SAK. Will I ever need it, I hope not. But if I do, then it is there, not lost or forgotten.
"Hello, I'm Dan and I'm a preparedness addict"
... and yet, I generally don't carry a survival kit. But I noticed even when wandering about town, I am rarely without a knife, a lighter, decent clothing and usually a small light.
On the hills or in the Jungle, I carry my more bulky kit in a light pack, but my small, frequently needed and important items are in my pockets. It always seems to 'surprise' me that the thing I really need at that moment is always about my person and if it fails, there is a backup of sorts. But then, I don't carry junk; I have no book to read, no music, no snacks. Just enough for a hot brew, a few slices of bacon and a cup of porridge in the morning and the sound of birdsong.
I do occasionally carry some items of 'survival' gear, but not in a sealed pack. I use it. A foil blanket makes a good sleeping cover over a bag liner if lightly draped and then a bin-bag or a poncho. By cycling my gear, I know I will have a fresh new kit that is appropriate to the terrain, and not end up with the woodsman's nightmare of opening a sealed survival pouch with frostbit hands to discover a damp book of matches, a dead torch, rusty fishooks and razor blade and a spaceblanket that has adhered to itself.
PS the button compass in a tin full of metal stuff can be dangerous.
Minotaur
15-10-2008, 19:15
My SAS Survival style kit, has gone in favor of more what I carried as a scout.
The EDC style plan, with Be Prepared as the motto for everything.
My 'Wayland' experience sort of confirmed the pointlessness of the carrying it in that format. I opened it, and it was out of date, or missing bits.
On the other hand, the whole point of 'Survival Kits', and E&E stuff, was to try and imporve your chances. Yes, it might have all gone, or it might be over looked.
There is a story of a New Zealand guide, who died saving two people. They had not bothered to take prepared kit, and his was spread to thin.
Why is this I wonder?
I feel a long chat, beer in hand, around a camp fire, coming on.
As we all know most PSK's are based on military Escape & Evasion kits so are usually small so they can be concealed and carried easy but I have always thought "how would you boil water with one of these kits as you could just about fit a quarter cup full in a tobacco tin"
I found a site last night with a great idea and thought y'all might like it.
http://www.woodsmonkey.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=172:swiss-canteen-psk&catid=41:how-to-articles&Itemid=63
Some other good stuff on the site,reviews etc.
mortalmerlin
16-10-2008, 17:39
I just don't see the point of a "survival kit" in a tin. My real life survival kit is a knife,lighter, phone and wallet. In the woods you'll have all your bushcrafty stuff with you and probably won't be sent on an escape and evasion excersise, helpfully allowed to take a pre-prepaired tin with you. I think people take survival kits because they think they're supposed to more than because they need to.
That said we do keep a big kit ready to put in the car that can keep us all going for at least 3 days. IMO this is far more useful than a tin for all sorts of reasons and I would recommend everyone to do the same.
Scots_Charles_River
16-10-2008, 18:42
Mobiles - They tend to work on summits rather than 'dips' low down. I have done over 150 munros up here and send a text from most summits. A few there was no signal, near Loch Laggan. It's the battery that dies in the cold.
A lot of folk abandon cars on english hill roads a few times a year and, as someone has posted, a few essentials in the car would help.
I got a puncture on the Lochay Hill road last November on my road bike. Took my over gloves off, blizzard started, near Ben Heasgarnach, and could not get the tube and tyre back on, numb hands. Of course you only take minimum kit on a roadbike. Luckily it was only a half hr before a car passed and offered help. This was a sunday, what if it was a tuesday. Would have been a long cold walk in road shoes for three miles to the nearest house in Glen Lyon. Luckily the chap was a biker. I embarissingly huddled in the car while he fixed it. My point ? You don't need to be in a wilderness to 'survive'.
Nick
This is a very intresting thread, Gary's first post really gave me food for thought.
I know a lot of people approach the survival kit issue from an almost militaristic or survivalist view, and I do see how that might not be appropriate for some people.
I've started putting a lot of thought into my own PSK, and Gary's post cleared my thinking somewhat.
I think for the ordinary civilian a lot of it really isn't necessary. Maybe then the self-heating meal, survival bag and so on are enough. However I've lived in the French Alps - and spend as much time in places like that as I can. That's given me a different perspective.
In the case of a turned ankle on the Old Man of Coniston or something like that, then yes, a survival bag and a mobile with credit on it would probably be the lifesaver... However to me a PSK is more than that.
In my eyes a PSK is for what you do when it's not just a turned ankle and a mobile phone call issue.
Without the whole Zombie Apocalypse scenario there are more potential problems to face...
Let's say you're in between two small towns in the alps and a huge avalanche cuts you off from help. It's cold, the road is closed and you need to help yourself.
Let's say you're in the back country and a massive storm rolls in - you're stuck for maybe a week.
You're on a walk in the scottish highlands and have a bad fall.
For some reason you're separated from your rucksack (drop it down a cliff, buried in an avalanche or similar).
These are all situations that I do run the risk of encountering and so I expect a well designed kit would improve my chances massively if any of them were to occur.
I'm not for a moment dismissing what you've said about the usefulness of a PSK for civilians in non-end-of-the-world scenarios. But in the more likely situations I could face I can see one being very useful...
I know you didn't mention any kit specifics - but your post has seriously cleared by head of a lot of the bunker-building-survivalist-nutjob chatter one often finds when reading websites about PSKs.
Brilliant thread that's been resurrected at a perfect time. :D
Big Geordie
16-10-2008, 22:43
My "survival" tins have had a major overhaul in recent years once I got that E&E wasn't needed anymore.:rolleyes:
One major problem Ive not seen discussed is our reliance on backpacks. A course I was on a few years ago with Nevada Outdoor School explained that 85% of all accidents in the field were more than 30 yards from your backpack. :eek: :eek: So a couple of belt pouches could become your real survival pack.
Does your belt pouch have enough to survive a catastrophe/ accident/fall etc? Got food/water/firekit/shelter?
Very interested to hear how you would handle being adrift from your pack. After all most of us set up camp then go for a bimble around without it.
George
Walks with dogs
18-10-2008, 10:30
A good lecture on the necessity and practicality of carrying some sort of survival kit can be found here.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=27214555428916 67646&hl=en
Puts the reasons behind the kit into perspective quite well, in that the purpose of the kit for most of us would be to assist in you being found, being an active participant in that process and staying alive until that happens.
A good lecture on the necessity and practicality of carrying some sort of survival kit can be found here.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=27214555428916 67646&hl=en
Puts the reasons behind the kit into perspective quite well, in that the purpose of the kit for most of us would be to assist in you being found, being an active participant in that process and staying alive until that happens.
Good link.
helixpteron
04-01-2009, 00:44
On the subject of reliance on backpacks, and 'body worn' PSK's.
I attempted to raise these points on a thread which was running some time ago in response to posts about losing one's backpack and trips into woodland without carrying a PSK.
However, despite being made in the best of intentions, in hindsight, I recognise that the tone of my response may appear to have been somewhat terse, and therefore have caused unintentional offence to Ahjno. If so, I apologise to Ahjno.
I've read case studies where experienced outdoors travellers became incapacitated and/or trapped, literally within a few feet of their backpacks, and only survived due to equipment which was body worn at the time of the incidents, and their inventive use of the aspects of nature within reach which could be improvised and adapted as survival aids.
Having a prepared mindset, and with the benefit of modern, compact and lightweight equipment, it is relatively easy to have suitable personal survival gear, in sufficient quantities, which is specific to one's activity, environment (geographic and weather) and trip duration, in a body worn configuration.
Websites like the excellent Be Prepared To Survive, provide knowledge and equipment to enable the individual to create a comprehensive PSK to fulfill their specific needs.
http://www.bepreparedtosurvive.com/index.html
The site owner has written what is without doubt the best book on the subject of building survival kits: Build The Perfect Survival Kit.
http://www.bepreparedtosurvive.com/BuildThePerfectSurvivalKit.htm
To be honest, its a virtual certainty that those whom read the book will be surprised and impressed by what they've learned (and they will learn!) even experienced hikers, climbers, paddlers and ex-mil.
This book can be had for £6:61 (new & delivered) from The Book Depository and is worth every penny! (No connection other than as a happy customer and reader).
DavidEnoch
05-01-2009, 19:55
The reason for my kit is that I have a tendency to wander. Several times on business trips I have had time to kill and have taken off hiking without any preparation or kit. I have done this in neat, exciting, and dangerous places such as the desert, mountains, and swamps. Now, I try to keep some kit with me at all times and think a little before I wander. It's hard to carry much when you fly and carry your baggage on board but by thinking ahead and doing a little preparation, I can have some basic gear even if I fly.
I also often go to Colorado on vacation and hike alone most of the time since my wife doesn't like to hike. I like to get off trail there too and wander around where most people don't go. I know what this side of the mountain is like, what's on the other side???
When I am in Colorado, I have a day pack with half a gallon of water and a good deal of stuff. Besides my backpack, I wear a small shoulder bag to keep some things at hand. I keep some survival kit in this bag. If I am resting without my pack and for some reason become separated from the pack, at least some gear is still with me. I try not to take off the shoulder bag.
I have been lucky most of my life and have gotten away with nothing worse than the sole coming off of a shoe, and a large abrasion on my forehead. I just try to be more careful now.
David Enoch
Sussex Man
06-01-2009, 14:45
If you fail to prepare! - then you must prepare to fail!
I don't carry a little tin kit anymore,i think they are pointless, I don't carry a possibles ? pouch, I carry a "Sac Majeek" In this magical sack it has small platic bags, fire steel, an opinel no.08, some bailing twine, charcloth, an old mushroom (now very dry) a few fishing hooks stuck into the canvas a candle stub, some ciggy papers (i dont smoke?) and an enamelled tin cup.
I'll probably live a very uninteresting life now, no zobbies or plague carriers to shoot .
forestwalker
22-03-2009, 08:08
My first introduction to the idea of a survival kit was a small book originally from New Zeeland I believe (Brian Hildreth?). And I made them, back in my early teens. As I learnt more I stopped carrying them.
Today I have a small "possibles bag", a 3/4 litre linnen canvas belt bag with useful stuff (lockblade SAK, DC4 sharpener, folding scissors, needle and thread, ferrocerium stick, Silva 27 compass (mostly for the mirror), small vise-grip pliers, steel wire, cordage, the bit-set from a SwissTool, etc). Stuff I find use for on a daily, regular basis, it lives in the backpack I carry around every day, when I go out in the woods it gets transfered to whatever backpack I carry.
I really should have two; one "usefull daily stuff", and one bush oriented. For example. the bitset is useful when reparing scientific instruments, compuers, and IKEA furniture, none of which is very common in the woods, while a sewing awl and some nails could be useful in the woods, and the DC4 is seldom used at work.
wistuart
22-03-2009, 12:37
I like Sussex Man's term "sac majeek" as that best describes my approach. My main outdoor activities are kayak touring, cycling and walking mainly around the scottish highlands. For me the most likely survival situation is an injury that may see me laid up (for 48hrs at most) waiting to be found and rescued. I have packed a small drybag with those items that I consider will be of most benefit in such a situation as well as a few spare essentials as back-ups should my primary get lost, forgotten or broken. This bag is always the first thing I pack and I know that as long as I have it with me I can cope with most emergency situations that I can realistically expect given my activities and usual environment.
Contents:
Survival bag;
First aid kit supplemented with antihistamines, ibuprofen, lomotol and blister kit;
500ml bottle of water + couple strips puri tabs;
A few energy bars;
Waterproof matches + tinder;
Torch (spare);
Compass (spare);
Whistle (spare);
Money (spare);
Steel mirror;
Multi-tool;
Paracord;
Small roll of gaffa tape;
Insect repellant and headnet;
Sunscreen.
Main bases covered - shelter/warmth, hydration, sustenance, signaling, personal healthcare, navigation.
Total weight is around 3 or 4 pounds. I've reviewed the contents many times and there is nothing that I believe represents uneccessary weight.
sandbender
22-03-2009, 14:39
My first introduction to the idea of a survival kit was a small book originally from New Zeeland I believe (Brian Hildreth?). And I made them, back in my early teens.
My first introduction to the idea of a survival kit was the 'Fireball Survival Guide' a free gift with the 'Bullet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullet_(DC_Thomson))' comic back in 1976. This was a plastic wallet featuring pullout paper 'flashcards' in which the eponymous 'Fireball' listed various survival strategies and methodologies. From memory these included constructing a tarp from a large polythene sheet and boiling up some Oxo cubes in your survival tin. :D
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/0c/Bullet2.jpg
These days my day to day 'kit (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=419817&postcount=175)' comprises a Doug Ritter RSK (http://www.equipped.org/rsk_mk1.htm), various lengths of cord, and a firesteel, these are either in my pockets or in my shoulder bag, the bag usually contains other odds 'n' ends too, more cord, butane lighter, plastic bags, torches, pills, band aids, slipjoint etc. etc.
:)
Long Stride
22-03-2009, 15:18
I used to get the " Bullet " comic as well.
I still have my plastic wallet. 33 years later :eek:
I don't carry it with me. Honest ;)
http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee256/mbev23/Fireball.jpg
Certainly brings back memories. :)
Long Stride
The term 'Survival Kit', is that the right expression to use for most UK based people? 'Handy Kit' may be more appropriate?
sandbender
22-03-2009, 16:09
Certainly brings back memories. :)
Yes it does, 33 years! I feel old now.
:You_Rock_
Excellant thread - my only contribution is to express my amazement when the discussion comes up to find people take their PSK tin OUT OF THEIR RUCKSACKS!!
If you have a rucksack you dont need a PSK.
The original intent of the military survival tin was to acknowledge the fact that the contents of your pack were martial in intent - ammo, at rounds, mortar rounds, link, flares,radios, batteries, GPS and a bit of food & a doss bag. The PSK was in your trouser pocket so that in the event of getting bounced and bug out leaving your packs etc behing you had something to work with. The comparible scenario for bushcrafters etc would be the 'lost pack' so to be useful the kit must live on you & close to the skin. Here the 'possibles pouch/tin' works better assuming that your belt and kit is on your trousers in anticipation of something like the canoe spill where you may even loose your jacket as well as everything else.
If you keep the tin or whatever anywhere else then there is little point.
Cheers
Nick
forestwalker
23-03-2009, 13:29
Excellant thread - my only contribution is to express my amazement when the discussion comes up to find people take their PSK tin OUT OF THEIR RUCKSACKS!!
If you have a rucksack you dont need a PSK.
To be fair it might be a case of normally keeping it with the pack, but taking it out when taking side trips, or when just out for a few hours picking berries or mushrooms.
When I teach I and i come to the topic of survival kits I usually have my fully packed ruck standing close by. First we talk about what functions one might like covered in PSK (shelter, fire, first aid, repair, etc). That perfectly describes a filled Berghaus Atlas, with sleeping bag, basha, Trangia, etc. Then we all agree that no sane person carries all that when out picking blueberries for an afternoon in central Sweden.
My knife with ferrocerium stick on the sheat is on the other extreme of the scale; it is a minimalistic tool set to make it easier to overcome lacks or to manufature the stuff you might need.
A PSK covers the gap between these two extremes. It can be tossed into the pack or basket you carry when out hunting, fishing or berry picking. It can live in your car. It can be crammed into a pocket when you go off to find the neat caves a few km away from the river you are canoeing. It can live in a pocket on your lifejacket.
What items go in there depends on your skill level and what kind of emergencies are realistically possible in your situation, be it a broken leg, getting lost and seeing sunset come, zombies from heck that eat your pet budgie or that a bear chases you up a tree. Think "what items would make my life much easier in that situation, and are reasonable to carry?" Look at Mors list. That is how it is organized, that is the logic behind each and every item on it.
It does not even have to be a tin, it can be a habit of having a SAK in your pocket and using firesteels as keyfobs. It can be having a knife with a firesteel and a few yards of cord around your neck whenever you are out in the woods. It can be carrying an axe whenever you go away from camp.
I actually advocate the "pocket habits" version over the classical PSK, since it is harder to loose all the stuff you are carrying, and makes you more familiar with the stuff in your kit. If it is your normal knife, firesteel, cookpot, or axe then you -- presumably -- know how to use them and what you can do with them.
I think that carrying a survival kit in this country is justifiably mocked because the ones on sale are immitations of the military type that are an invitation to play soldier. A kit in your pocket that has a few handy bits in it makes perfect sense, though, and needs a new name to distinguish it. My first aid kit is always running out of plasters and ibuprofen because other people need it and on one hiking trip it got practically emptied- even strangers were at it.
How about basing a survival kit around a first aid kit? I think that after this thread I'll add a couple of other bits to it, like duct tape, needle, thread and paracord.
HI
Very good points about the carrying of a survival tin.
I only used mine once in an emergency and that was to light fire so did not really need the contents.
I use to make my own but now have the BCB one (off ebay)
Why?
Better to follow the Boy Scout motto- Be Prepared! you never know whats around the corner.
Good Luck
hogstable
10-01-2010, 21:34
Like most people into this activity I got a PSK when I was a kid and it is a great mental hobby. I use stuff all the time that would fit into the possibles mode but I still like the idea of a PSK for fun, it is good mental exercise and harms no one including me as I am very unlikely to send myself out into the woods with only the PSK in my underpants.
I will be revisiting my PSK that I bought years ago and thinning a lot of it out. It will end up as a first aid / fire lighting kit. But good fun all the same. As for being separated from rucksacks etc my friend was in a situation like that a few years ago when he got disorientated in the woods at night.
I think it is good practice to have something in your pockets that would really need in an emergency and then to have some more important pieces with you, eg having a cut down daysack with waterproofs and a drink etc when you are moving away from your rucksack.
TinkyPete
13-01-2010, 07:00
I do have several different survival kits some in tins some in pouches and one even in a old compeed case (my smallest and the one i carry the most, due to size and contents). They are all used for different enviroments and also depend on what else I am carrying. I do check the contents regularly to make sure everything still works or to refresh items such as puritabs and other things. The two largest ones I have are in an old dets box and the other in a PLCE water bottle pouch, which has an extra small pouch on the side, which lives on my belt kit.
I find that with my job, they still come in handy. I do use them on occasion even when i have other bits of kit just to make sure that they will handle the situation that they were designed for. I find it helps to check the contents and I know that they will not let me down if I need to use them for real.
I still keep my smallest one on me even when I now carry a possibles pouch, when out and about, which as an extra backup. I know it is not necessary but as it hardly weighs anything and is extremely small it does not make a difference.
I have had to do a few E + E exercises through work although not for a few years, but I find it hard to break the habit and don't want to anyway, but still my brain is main main tool and learning new skills and retaining the old ones are the things that is most important to me, followed up closely with a knife :)