Axe abuse?

[brucemacdonald]

Hi

I have been watching the latest series of Ray Mears Bushcraft and I have noticed something odd (along with his way with the English language - describing the crook knife as "virtually a unique tool to this part of the World" for example). :rolleyes:

From my modest knowledge of using axes, I thought that you should not use a forest axe to hammer in wedges into wood. Gransfors Bruks' excellent "The Axe Book" says explicitly:

"Only the poll of a Splitting Maul is designed for pounding on a steel splitting wedge. Do not use any axe or hatchet, for example a Splitting Axe, for driving in a steel wedge, when splitting." (p.32)

Yet this is being shown repeatedly in the course of constructing his birch-bark canoe. Only gentle taps into cedar, granted, but I thought this would damage his axe. Is this simply illustrating backwoods improvisation? Is this kind of use recommended?

I'm confused.... :o

Best wishes

Bruce

[Gary]

Yep I'd agree Bruce, same rule goes for using an axe to baton a knife.

But then as pointed out elsewhere there are also errors present in the bow drilling session ect.

[Bagheera]

Bruce,

The manual talks about a steel wedge and in the latest Ray Mears Bushcraft episode he pounds wooden wedges into the Cedar trunk, I don't think that would damage the Poll of an Gransfors Axe, steel is whole different story though.

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera

[Tony]

Yep, he's not hitting steel against steel which is the big 'no no' hitting the wood will do no damage to the axe.

[Gary]

Bruce,

The manual talks about a steel wedge and in the latest Ray Mears Bushcraft episode he pounds wooden wedges into the Cedar trunk, I don't think that would damage the Poll of an Gransfors Axe, steel is whole different story though.

Best Scouting wishes,

Bagheera


There was a bit where he was hitting axes together - was it is a steel wedge - cant remember but I remember wincing at the time, I think that is what Bruce is talking about.

[Tony]

Ahh, sorry, missed that bit alltogether :o

[Moonraker]

Or you could use one of these ;)

Fiskars Hatchet (http://www.fiskars.com/en_US/garden/lookupItem.do?cat=1&itemNumber=24288&fam=8)

Holds up to way too much abuse in and around the house, the difference being with the Fiskars type axe the head will not loosen due to insert molded design. It is also made out of hardened carbon steel. Not as pretty as a GB of course :) but a good, durable all-round tool.

[Angus Og]

Hi

You should be very carefully about using an axe as a hammer as I found out to my cost last weekend. I cut the back of my left index finger above the middle knuckle when using the axe as a hammer.

Had to spend four hours in A & E on Saturday to get told I had partially cut a tendon and had to stay in for an operation in the morning. Managed to get them to let go home and come in at 8.00am next morning.

Next morning when I went back surgeon told me I don’t need an operation but was not to bend my finger for three weeks. And because I was not give any antibiotics when I went home the day before had to stay in and have antibiotics on an intravenous drip, it was another six hours before I good home. Been on antibiotics all week and go back to hospital on Thursday.

If you have to use the axe as a hammer makes sure the blade is covered.

Iain

[Moonraker]

Sorry to hear about the accident Iain :( Thanks for that important tip.

[Bagheera]

Gary,

Sorry, I must also have missed the part where Ray hit 2 ax heads together :o
That's a BIG NoNo.
I once had to go to an eye surgeon in hospital when I disregarded the rule not to hit wit an axe head on metal and a metal shard flew off and pierced my eyebal like a miniature dart, hurt like hell.
Then seeing an very sharp surgeons instrument approaching your eye after the eye in question was anesthetized is also not an pleasant happening.
Luckily no furture damage it just was sore for another day or two and I still got a small colored speckle where it hit.

Cheers,

Bagheera

[brucemacdonald]

There was a bit where he was hitting axes together - was it is a steel wedge - cant remember but I remember wincing at the time, I think that is what Bruce is talking about.

That's right - actually it looked like an old axe-head being used as a wedge judging by the shape.

About 4 minutes in you can clearly see the axe being hammered into the cedar (you can't see the hammer but you can hear the ringing sound so it must be metal-on-metal).

Best wishes

Bruce

[ChrisKavanaugh]

Aside from the danger of schrapnel banging metal to metal will deform the eye if not crack it. There is a simple solution and the axe plays it's part. It's called a wooden baton or even the wood billet hammers fabricated by timber framers for splitting shakes. My riding partner has a saying for these embaressing slips by us 'experts' he says it's like zipping up your jeans with a length of toilet paper still hanging out :eek:

[OldJimbo]

Crooked knives are unique to Britain. Find an early one with a stamp and it'll say HBC and Sheffield. But the First Nations people up here think that they came up with the original design and I usually have to keep my mouth shut or I don't get to fill it with pan fried oolichan and such.... Luckily up here they only have these huge ocean going dug out canoes so they can't say that they taught Ray how to make a birchbark!

If I wanted to build a birchbark canoe I'd look here first:
Judy Kavanagh (http://jumaka.com/birchbarkcanoe/index.htm)
I'm just not quite sure whether it's an old person thing, being Canadianized, or wanting to make sure that I didn't go blind in the process.....

[Webley Webster]

Crooked knives are unique to Britain. Find an early one with a stamp and it'll say HBC and Sheffield. But the First Nations people up here think that they came up with the original design and I usually have to keep my mouth shut or I don't get to fill it with pan fried oolichan and such.....

Interesting conjecture

http://members.aol.com/mocotagan/basketmaker.html

[Moonraker]

If I wanted to build a birchbark canoe I'd look here first:
Judy Kavanagh (http://jumaka.com/birchbarkcanoe/index.htm)
I'm just not quite sure whether it's an old person thing, being Canadianized, or wanting to make sure that I didn't go blind in the process..... Great link Old Jimbo :) Very nice instructions.

[OldJimbo]

No conjecture Web, i like oolichan - grease and stink eggs too - and nothing is going to stand in the way. If you knew what it takes to make grease, you'd see why i don't do my own at home...

But you were probably thinking that what I said about crooked knives being British. If you look at British maps of the last couple of centuries you'll see the extensive canal system, and notice that many schools were built next to them. I'm just puzzled as to where Ray got his skills, because I figured times were less hard there and kids these days could afford store bought canoes or bikes to get to school. We didn't have it so easy. Some kids couldn't afford a crooked knife and had to make a corracle.. Yep I've been in one of those too.
http://www.brewerycreek.ca/images/42.jpg

As you can see - while homemade canoes might still be used here, they're sure not made out of birch bark. Probably a good thing with canoes being used on the ocean..
http://www.kurtknoll.com/canrace.jpg

On a more somber note - when people here got back into making dugout canoes, it was quickly found that people who knew all the skills were dead, and that there were an incredible number of required skills. It's taken a lot of people a great many years to regain the knowledge. Canoe building knowledge could be regained because of remaining examples - but other knowledge is gone.

[Tantalus]

back to axes being used as hammers and hammers being used to bash axes in etc, the splinter thing is quite dangerous indeed as bagheera says

in fact the whole axe head or hammer head can explode :eek:

trick is to use a wedge metal that is considerably softer than your "hammer", and even then use a long handled hammer that is at arms length plus a couple of feet when it strikes the wedge

if you must use an axe to hammer because there is no alternative, then use a wooden wedge. its slower but it works eventually

Tant

[OldJimbo]

"in fact the whole axe head or hammer head can explode"

Not in most cases. The exception will be one of the improperly tempered Chinese axes with brittle steel - including the poll. Some hammers are case hardened too.

The problem is that both the steel wedge and the axe used to pound it will quickly mushroom over. A chance sideways hit will shear off part of the mushroom edge and it will go flying with some considerable force. I've picked lots of pieces out my hide, but then I've worn down a few 6lb steel wedges too - and I wear safety glasses. I'm usually careful to take an angle grinder to the wedges and maul/sledge frequently to remove the mushroom. The curled over mushroom can give a nasty cut just handling the wedges.
I haven't seen so many aluminum wedges lately - they're mostly replaced by fiberglass/plastic.

For all my joking around, let's cut Ray some slack. I guess the shoot was all set up when he found the proper tools were missing. The technique with an old axe head as a wedge might wreck the good axe you are using but it wouldn't be dangerous until a mushroom formed, and if you weren't wearing safety glasses. Anybody who uses axes would know right away if they had brittle steel on the polls by tapping the two axe heads together. That's how you sort out the cheap axes that might look like a good deal. Just chopping with one of those can be life threatening, since pieces of blade flying are worse than splinters of steel.

[Squidders]

Haven't people been hitting metal things with other metal things for hundreds of years? chisels, bolsters rivets...

As long as it's done with consideration and care, I don't see the problem.

[Tantalus]

Haven't people been hitting metal things with other metal things for hundreds of years? chisels, bolsters rivets...

Thats not really a fair question squidders

Yes they have been hitting metal things with metal things, but metallurgy has come up with new types of metal and processes have been refined so that todays tools are a fary cry from those of 100 years ago

That aside there have always been a variety of hammers from mallets to copper headed hammers or sledge hammers depending on the task at hand

Tant

[OldJimbo]

I got to see the video. it was trivial tapping through some cedar... thin stuff and easily split. Not quite like pounding in big wedges to split a six foot trunk.

[ChrisKavanaugh]

In reply to an earlier post Judy Kavanagh makes INCREDIBLE stuff. We do disagree on who spells the name correctly :D Yes, The film shows he wasn't doing anything incredibly dangerous. And yes too, it generated this discussion and might stop the untaught from doing just that. Teachers are supposed to learn from students who carry their studies forward. ;)

[pumbaa]

I think that the technique of using the axe as a "hammer" may have come from way back . Years ago "carbon steel" was rare and expensive , so blacksmiths would forge weld a strip onto the edge of a piece of iron to make an axe head (the carbon steel being the "hard" blade). A chisel was made in a similar manner , leaving the soft end for hitting (hence the mushroom effect from repeated use) . This means that neither items would shatter or chip .
Today it is far easier and cheaper to make the whole axe head from carbon steel , so the back of the axe head is likely to be hard .
I personally dont like the idea of the blade going past my ear (i like them where they are) , or worse imbeeding it in my forhead , so i never reverse an axe or use double edged axes , bilhooks or machetes .
But if you HAVE to bang steel on steel , use a piece of wood in between . It might be less efficent , but its a lot safer .
Pumbaa