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John Lee
28-05-2010, 00:06
Not a bushcraft question, but it was outdoors:campfire:. I just watched the DVD of "Lawrence of Arabia" and was trying to figure out what make of motorcycle he crashed in the opening scene. I also noticed for the first time the initials JAP on the heads of both cylinders. I always assumed he would have been riding a Triumph but it looked different. Of course it was 1935

:thankyou

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 00:08
It was a Brough Superior SS100. He used to call it Boa.

TeeDee
28-05-2010, 00:10
One of these apparently;-

http://www.brough-superior.com/ws/frontend/seite/SeiteCms.php?coId=263&coType=navigation1

according to this;-

http://lostmotorcycles.blogspot.com/2010/01/what-kind-of-bike-would-te-lawrence.html

The petrol station/garage just up the road from me were the last people to speak to him when he stopped to put some giddy-up juice in his tank before setting off one final time.


EDIT;- JD Got there before me.

Ogri the trog
28-05-2010, 00:11
SS100 I believe.
It supposedly still has the two shilling piece that he used to keep in the petrol cap just in case he ran out!

Could equally be an urban myth, but its a nice one!

Ogri the trog

Edit to add - I once saw an old feller start one of these bikes at thte Hendon Aircraft museum (one of Raymond Baxters (who was visiting the place) friends) and screech off up the road -howling past a much younger rider on one of the new (at the time) Yamaha RD250LC's.
OTT

John Lee
28-05-2010, 00:11
Thanks, I knew someone on here would immediately know. John Lee

TeeDee
28-05-2010, 00:12
Found a Photo and additonal info;-

http://www.motoringmemories.com/history.html

beach bum
28-05-2010, 00:13
and was trying to figure out what make of motorcycle he crashed in the opening scene.
:thankyou

Wonder no more he was addicted to a make known as The Brough Superior. See here :-

http://www.google.com/images?q=brough+superior+motor cycles&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=kO3-S7D-FoiM0gTRxZDuDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnu

regards

beach bum

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 00:14
Thanks, I knew someone on here would immediately know. John Lee

It's only cos it was in an episode of Lovejoy that I knew that.

laro13
28-05-2010, 00:43
It's only cos it was in an episode of Lovejoy that I knew that.

Was that the episode, in which Eric wanted to make a "replica" TA bike.
I just loved that show! :D

Lovejoy: "Do we have to bring mistrust and suspicion into this."

I have some episodes on my computer.

Cheers

Laurentius
28-05-2010, 00:47
It was definately a Brough superior, as others have got there to answer before me. It was considered the Rolls Royce of motorcycles in it's day.

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 00:52
Was that the episode, in which Eric wanted to make a "replica" TA bike.
I just loved that show! :D

Lovejoy: "Do we have to bring mistrust and suspicion into this."

I have some episodes on my computer.

Cheers

Yeah, that's the one. Cracking series.

rik_uk3
28-05-2010, 02:40
What does the film and the bushmoot have in common?

Acorn62
28-05-2010, 08:27
As an aside: we used to have to run up to Lawrence's cottage and back in time for tea when I was a stickie (junior leader's regiment RAC) at Bovingdon. His legend was bi down there and he's still a bit of a hero of mine - anyone read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom?

torc
28-05-2010, 09:38
I saw T.E. Lawrence's Brough motorcycle in a museum somewhere, I think it was the Imperial War Museum, London. After the crash the makers rebuilt the bike.
Happy trails...torc.

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 12:03
What does the film and the bushmoot have in common?

The film = The bike = Lovejoy, much love and joy spread around at the moot.

wedgie
28-05-2010, 13:07
it was belived that he swerved to avoid 2 boys who swerved in to his path on a country road

wattsy
28-05-2010, 15:12
as an aside he used to go to brown's pie shop in lincoln when he was in the RAF? there's a plaque on the wall outside. lovely pies there

rik_uk3
28-05-2010, 15:57
What does the film and the bushmoot have in common?

Part of the film was shot at Merthyr Mawr

lavrentyuk
28-05-2010, 16:01
> It was a Brough Superior SS100. He used to call it Boa.

Boanerges was, I believe, the full name. No doubt Boa would be the short version. I am told it means "sons of thunder" but was also the name of a horse owned by Alexander the Great. Lawrence owned several Broughs, the last being built in 1932. He wrote some excellent stuff on riding his bikes.

The tale of swerving to avoid two boys is not universally accepted, there are also stories of a mysterious black car in the dip and a conspiracy theory or two.


For some of Lawrence own writing on the subject of 'Boa' try this, just a little down the page........

http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2007/09/te-lawrence-road-taken-from-mint.html

Great stuff.

Richard

TeeDee
28-05-2010, 20:40
> I am told it means "sons of thunder" but was also the name of a horse owned by Alexander the Great.


http://thevintagent.blogspot.com/2007/09/te-lawrence-road-taken-from-mint.html





I though Alexander the Great Horse was Bucephalus. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucephalus
Maybe he had more then the one.

johnboy
28-05-2010, 22:28
There is a lot of good info on the net in regards to T.E lawrence and Brough Superior Motorcycles and the SS100.

T.E Lawrence owned eight Broughs in all, listed below, with notes in brackets:

* 1922 - Boa (the name was short for Boanerges)
* 1923 - George I (the cost of 150 was more than the price of a house at the time)
* 1924 - George II
* 1925 - George III
* 1926 - George IV
* 1927 - George V (RK 4907; see photo)
* 1929 - George VI (UL 656)
* 1932 - George VII (GW 2275) (the bike he died on)
* Undelivered - George VIII (still being built when Lawrence died)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Lawrence_of_Arabia_Brough_Supe rior_gif.gif


Lawrence's last SS100 (Registration GW 2275) was built in 1932 and was on loan to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu in Hampshire. It is currently on display at the Imperial War Museum in London.

J.A.P on the engine stood for JA Prestwich.

Wikipedia has some info on them..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JA_Prestwich_Industries_Ltd

Boanerges (Βοανηργες)

Mark 3:17

And James, the son of Zebedee, and John, the brother of James, and he gave them the name Boanerges, which is Sons of Thunder.

Jesus surnames the brothers James and John to reflect their impetuosity. The Greek rendition of their name is Βοανηργες (Boanērges).

HTH...

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 22:30
There is a lot of good info on the net in regards to T.E lawrence and Brough Superior Motorcycles and the SS100.

T.E Lawrence owned eight Broughs in all, listed below, with notes in brackets:

* 1922 - Boa (the name was short for Boanerges)
* 1923 - George I (the cost of 150 was more than the price of a house at the time)
* 1924 - George II
* 1925 - George III
* 1926 - George IV
* 1927 - George V (RK 4907; see photo)
* 1929 - George VI (UL 656)
* 1932 - George VII (GW 2275) (the bike he died on)
* Undelivered - George VIII (still being built when Lawrence died)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Lawrence_of_Arabia_Brough_Supe rior_gif.gif


Lawrence's last SS100 (Registration GW 2275) was built in 1932 and was on loan to the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu in Hampshire. It is currently on display at the Imperial War Museum in London.

J.A.P on the engine stood for JA Prestwich.

Wikipedia has some info on them..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JA_Prestwich_Industries_Ltd

HTH...

There are many that believe that it is a fake. Amazingly along the Lovejoy line of conspiracy theories. The evidence for that being the bike is somewhat iffy IIRC.

johnboy
28-05-2010, 22:36
There are many that believe that it is a fake. Amazingly along the Lovejoy line of conspiracy theories. The evidence for that being the bike is somewhat iffy IIRC.

Well research and present the evidence...far better than conjecture.

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 23:21
Well research and present the evidence...far better than conjecture.

I have no interest in the truth either way, in as far as that particular subject is concerned. I was merely pointing out that many scholars in LawrenceLore think it is not correct. You could also call it conjecture that it is THE bike, as is always the case in these matters.

slamdunk
28-05-2010, 23:31
But then there are conspiracy theories around so many historical events; Kennedy's assassination, moon landings etc etc. Only a very few will ever know the truth.....

Laurentius
28-05-2010, 23:39
As an aside: we used to have to run up to Lawrence's cottage and back in time for tea when I was a stickie (junior leader's regiment RAC) at Bovingdon. His legend was bi down there and he's still a bit of a hero of mine - anyone read the Seven Pillars of Wisdom?

Yes I have read the seven pillars of wisdom. My dad was a great fan of Lawrence, he served in Egypt, Palestine and the Sudan during his national service and became a fluent Arabic speaker and admirer of the Bedouin. So he named his first son after Lawrence.

I can remember him taking me to see the movie, and the seven pillars was almost compulsory reading :)

I've also read Michael Asher's books.

JonathanD
28-05-2010, 23:51
But then there are conspiracy theories around so many historical events; Kennedy's assassination, moon landings etc etc. Only a very few will ever know the truth.....

Exactly, no one knows why he crashed that day. No one knows whether that particular bike is his or another resembling it. I'll leave that debate to those it matters too, cos' it sure doesn't matter to me, although it is interesting.

pango
29-05-2010, 17:22
Not a bushcraft question... I also noticed for the first time the initials JAP on the heads of both cylinders. :thankyou

JAP stands for J A Prestwich, a Tottenham company which manufactured V-twin engines. Brough also used Matchless engines.

There were specific reasons for Lawrence's placement in "Arabia", for one thing he spoke 7 or 8 languages and was fluent in Arabic, Turkish and Syriac and had been involved in an archaeological excavation in Syria before WWI. It was said of Lawrence however, that his intelligence, single-mindedness, determination and abilities were such that he could have fitted almost seamlessly into any theatre of war.

He was however, most certainly uncomfortable and disillusioned with the outcome of the disposal of lands of the former Ottoman Empire in Palestine and the Sykes-Picot Agreement and ultimately American manipulation of the situation which assured an eventual Israeli homeland in Palestine in betrayal of assurances made previously to King Faisal's Arab Delegation for whom he had personally acted as a representative.

There are still many questions asked regarding the circumstances of Lawrence's death and the roles he played after his involvement in the Middle East. Always an enigmatic character, Lawrence's activities, particularly after the war, are somewhat confusing. He seems to have continued working covertly for the British Gov't. While on intimate terms with prominent figures in the Military, Government, Literature, the Arts and Sciences and the Theatre as he seems always to have been, he was equally accused of being a homosexual, a Bolshevik and a Fascist, and one must wonder whether his apparent friendship with the Fascist, Oswald Mosley was a contrived one. He had also alienated himself from many fellow officers who, while being resentful of his fame in Arabia while they remained anonymous on the Western Front, saw him as something of a traitor to his class after Colonel Lawrence enlisted as an Aircraftman in the RAF. He certainly appears to have despised what he saw as a decadence society and attempted to withdraw from it while, true to form, was reported as having contemplated going into politics shortly before his death, which is roughly when the accusations of Bolshevism, Fascism and homosexuality surfaced.

The official circumstances of his death are that he had swerved to avoid 2 boys on bicycles, but there were persistent rumours of a black car at the scene. Mrs Brough, wife of the owner of Brough motorcycles later claimed that her husband had been warned by unidentified men not to divulge that black paint had been found on the motorbike when Mr Brough inspected it after the fatal crash. A serving soldier stationed at Bovington who claimed to have seen a black car at the scene of the accident, Private Catchpole, was so unnerved by his interrogation that he shot himself.

The investigation into Lawrence's death was not undertaken by the local Police but by MI5, who are also reported to have prevented the mothers of the two injured boys from seeing their sons for 4 days and who shut down Bovington Army camp when the supposed routine inquest was held into an ordinary road accident.

Consequently, rumours circulated that Lawrence had commited suicide. Remind you of anyone named Kelly?

John Lee
30-05-2010, 03:49
You guys are great. Very intelligent and willing to put up with your American cousin's question which at first light didn't have a damn thing to do with bushcraft.

Acorn62
31-05-2010, 23:47
sounds like my uncle who bought me up.....


Yes I have read the seven pillars of wisdom. My dad was a great fan of Lawrence, he served in Egypt, Palestine and the Sudan during his national service and became a fluent Arabic speaker and admirer of the Bedouin. So he named his first son after Lawrence.

I can remember him taking me to see the movie, and the seven pillars was almost compulsory reading :)

I've also read Michael Asher's books.