View Full Version : knife laws...
_scorpio_
15-04-2010, 22:42
if this turns into another knife law rant/debate i want it closed. its just a question/idea.
why aren't knives without points legal? if the tip of the blade was just square with a slightly rounded top (like a knife i am planning to make) it would be all but impossible to stab someone with it and as i can see this is how pretty much all knife crimes are committed. of course they would have to be under a certain size (i.e. not a heavy chopping tool, the 3" law would still be good). this way it could be legal for people to carry a fixed blade knife without having to plan their routes before going somewhere and having to explain to pc plod and they may not believe you etc.
bushcraft_lad
15-04-2010, 22:59
It's still sharpened at the edge thus making it easy to "slash" someone although i can see where your coming from as most injury's are stabbing's it's our law it's rather broken for lack of better word's if you ask me.
regards,
_scorpio_
15-04-2010, 23:22
yea but slashing is easily achievable too with a sub 3" non locking folder...
Asa Samuel
15-04-2010, 23:41
As has been said it is still possible to slash with a knife without a point. Also, there has to be some leniency when it comes to knife laws and a sub 3" non-locking folder is a good mark.
HillBill
15-04-2010, 23:53
Plus the rounded edge can be sharpened, it will still go deep with a rounded edge, as it is still thin.
_scorpio_
16-04-2010, 00:17
there would be no point sharpening it to a point because if it was legal before then made illegal to be used as a weapon why wouldn't you just use a normal pointed knife. same as if i mod one of my non lockers so that it will lock i am making it illegal and may as well just use a lock knife.
sticks65
16-04-2010, 01:05
I think a knife that has a rounded end could still penetrate the skin and do serious damage if enough force is used.
HillBill
16-04-2010, 01:29
there would be no point sharpening it to a point because if it was legal before then made illegal to be used as a weapon why wouldn't you just use a normal pointed knife. same as if i mod one of my non lockers so that it will lock i am making it illegal and may as well just use a lock knife.
I meant put a bevel around the rounded tip, not sharpen it to a point.
A knife with no tip will still penetrate for a stab wound, it would just make it more messy, Martyn probably knows more about the results of it than i would be I know that it would have to be a large flat area to prevent penetration (although it does depend on how hard your stabbing) and the inherent size of most knives it's still going to be a small(ish) surface area in contact.
I would imagine the law will say it's a knife no matter what you do to the point.
the law says Sharply pointed or bladed Artical
so either part makes it subject and there is no mention of the word knife except in the Exemtion for a penknife with a sub 3" cutting edge
i suppose technically a folding pocket knife thats 2foot long folded and 4ft long unfolded but only had the end 2.75" sharpened with an edge is legal as long as its not locking and you have the 2ft pocket to put it in :lmao::D.
ATB
Duncan
I think you'd have to keep that one up your sleeve :D
Asa Samuel
16-04-2010, 10:23
This isn't a knife law rant so it's allowed.
I just get a bit miffed when people on here say that a fixed blade/lock knife/folder with more than a 3" blade is illegal when it's not. I get what you mean that it's not an every day carry but those knives certainly are not illegal otherwise everyone on this forum wouldn't be carrying them! Just phrase yourself differently.
This isn't a knife law rant so it's allowed.
I just get a bit miffed when people on here say that a fixed blade/lock knife/folder with more than a 3" blade is illegal when it's not. I get what you mean that it's not an every day carry but those knives certainly are not illegal otherwise everyone on this forum wouldn't be carrying them! Just phrase yourself differently.
You mean they are not illegal if you have lawful authority or reasonable excuse?
Asa Samuel
16-04-2010, 10:34
You mean they are not illegal if you have lawful authority or reasonable excuse?
Exactly! Lots of people use the phrase "They are illegal" but they are not so long as you have a reason for carrying it.
gregorach
16-04-2010, 10:45
if this turns into another knife law rant/debate i want it closed. its just a question/idea.
why aren't knives without points legal?
It's not so long ago that the standard weapon of choice for gang members (at least in this part of the world) was the "malky" (straight razor).
Exactly! Lots of people use the phrase "They are illegal" but they are not so long as you have a reason for carrying it.
Quite right, its unfortunate the minority spoil it for the majority. Maybe we should lobby for a new bit of legislation and call it "The Common sense Act" where we take a group of people from the public and let them decide if the persons intent was to cause harm. :goodnight: Any supporters
It's not so long ago that the standard weapon of choice for gang members (at least in this part of the world) was the "malky" (straight razor).
In Bristol it is a Stanly with two blades side by side, when they cut, they cut out a 1/16 in strip of skin between the two blade, and it leaves a ugly scar.
gregorach
16-04-2010, 10:59
Maybe we should lobby for a new bit of legislation and call it "The Common sense Act" where we take a group of people from the public and let them decide if the persons intent was to cause harm. :goodnight: Any supporters
Isn't that called "trial by jury"? I'm pretty sure we already have it.
Isn't that called "trial by jury"? I'm pretty sure we already have it.
I meant a simplified version, have you been to court and seen the amount of inadmissible evidence it cannot use. The system has evolved over so many years it has become the most complicated system about. Maybe its time to go backwards.
HillBill
16-04-2010, 11:22
We need a court of law. A proper one, court de jure.
We only have legal courts ( court de facto) which support legislation, all the things folk think are LAW are in fact not, and are just legislation. LAW over rules legislation yet we do not have a court of LAW.
BorderReiver
16-04-2010, 12:24
It's not so long ago that the standard weapon of choice for gang members (at least in this part of the world) was the "malky" (straight razor).
And don't forget the wee hatchet.
Isn't that called "trial by jury"? I'm pretty sure we already have it.
Most cases would go before a magistrates court, and they have a frightening percentage of conviction compared to Crown court.
These offences are relatively minor and the cops would be happy to get you convicted in a magistrates court, they are pretty much guaranteed a conviction. Its still enough to wreck your life or lose you job and your gun licenses.
Crown Court well, that's a whole different story. My advice would be to join an organisation that offers legal protection.
I have 100K's worth of legal protection via The Scottish Association for Country Sports, I would have made a phone call and then let them do the rest.
The police assume that we cannot afford to go to court, and prosecute, but wave 100k of legal insurance in front of them and they will suddenly be not so keen.
there would be no point sharpening it to a point because if it was legal before then made illegal to be used as a weapon why wouldn't you just use a normal pointed knife. same as if i mod one of my non lockers so that it will lock i am making it illegal and may as well just use a lock knife.
Sorry, got to disagree there. Just because something is given a point doesn't automatically qualify it as an offensive weapon. If it is adapted with no other possible use than as a weapon THEN you'll be in the brown stuff. Otherwise it is still just a knife.
Also modding a slipjoint to a lock or even fixed blade isn't making it illegal in itself. If you carry the modded knife without reasonable excuse it becomes an illegal bladed article (not even an offensive weapon!).
_scorpio_
16-04-2010, 18:56
yea illegal was the wrong term, i should have said... well i dont know but you know what i mean.
Laurentius
16-04-2010, 19:44
To some extent it is all a matter of context and circumstance isn't it. I can recall not so many years ago that I was seated in the foyer of an FE college of all places with a deactivated machine gun in my bag. A copper happened to come into the foyer for something else and I could not help thinking "wouldn't you be interested to know what I have in my bag"
I did of course have a quite lawful reason for possession in that said deactivated firearm was prior to my sitting in the foyer, being used as a prop in a performance, but there you go.
The fact that I had something scary in my bag, would never have passed his mind because I was not acting in any way suspiciously.
Walks with dogs
16-04-2010, 19:54
My understanding is that whilst slashing injuries can be very severe, it is stabbing injuries that tend to be those which are the life threatening ones, obviously there are exceptions but that is a pretty good general rule. As such I think the original poster has a point ( no pun intended). There was a bit of a hoohahh a year or so ago when some medical practitioners ( sorry I can't be more precise) suggested this very idea. Personally I think the knife laws we have are as good as they can be.
_scorpio_
16-04-2010, 20:07
oh well, you just cant trust people these days not to find a loophole in a law and kill people, or just do it anyway and accept the week in jail.
My understanding is that whilst slashing injuries can be very severe, it is stabbing injuries that tend to be those which are the life threatening ones, obviously there are exceptions but that is a pretty good general rule. As such I think the original poster has a point ( no pun intended). There was a bit of a hoohahh a year or so ago when some medical practitioners ( sorry I can't be more precise) suggested this very idea. Personally I think the knife laws we have are as good as they can be.
I agree, most street scum have no idea of where the jugular is and would not know how to sever it with a slash, they just do the obvious and shove the knife in point first( as happened to me)
Minotaur
16-04-2010, 21:09
:banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead::banghead: :banghead::banghead:
The big problem is they do not list what knifes are used in crime stats, so you might be able to find out from injuries, but think this would be a nightmare to get evidence for.
My understanding is that the reason we can carry 3" and under is because you cannot stab someone in the heart with that length.
This comes down to a simple thing, what is the point of the whole legal system?
The current Government seems to think it is so they can look good in the press.
The rich do not care because most of the time they buy themselves out of it.
The general public think it is to keep them safe. :lmao:
Criminals do not care, breaking laws is in the job description, and they know more about it than most lawyers.
Victims know the law is about screwing them.
I should mention Hitler because these threads are getting a bit pointless.
andybysea
16-04-2010, 21:29
Minotaur,regarding you second sentence, im pretty sure if you stabbed someone with enough force with a 3 inch blade in to the chest you'd have a good chance of hitting the heart, its only under the rib cage,some gov job's worth probably just picked that number out of thin air, or to clamp down on the kitchen type knives being used in stabbings.
_scorpio_
16-04-2010, 22:16
I should mention Hitler because these threads are getting a bit pointless.
if this turns into another knife law rant/debate i want it closed. its just a question/idea.
as i said originally, i was just questioning something, not trying to create another of these repetitive knife law things.
my question has been answered anyway, and thanks for clearing that up, but could discussions about legal carry knives being used as weapons stop. if you really want to know peoples opinions look at some of the hundreds of other knife law threads on here.
Laurentius
16-04-2010, 22:45
Minotaur,regarding you second sentence, im pretty sure if you stabbed someone with enough force with a 3 inch blade in to the chest you'd have a good chance of hitting the heart, its only under the rib cage,some gov job's worth probably just picked that number out of thin air, or to clamp down on the kitchen type knives being used in stabbings.
Oh come off it, if I applied sufficient force behind my index finger it would go all the way through, and it is longer than 3 inches.
You could stab someone through the heart with a drinking straw, the law is a complete and total ass.
if this turns into another knife law rant/debate i want it closed. its just a question/idea.
why aren't knives without points legal? if the tip of the blade was just square with a slightly rounded top (like a knife i am planning to make) it would be all but impossible to stab someone with it and as i can see this is how pretty much all knife crimes are committed. of course they would have to be under a certain size (i.e. not a heavy chopping tool, the 3" law would still be good). this way it could be legal for people to carry a fixed blade knife without having to plan their routes before going somewhere and having to explain to pc plod and they may not believe you etc.
Well, he tried.
In view of the OP's actual question, and that we both seem to reckon it's been answered, this thread is closed.
cheers,
Toddy