View Full Version : Product prototyping question.
I have an idea for a bushcraft product. It’s very simple and I’m surprised no one else has done it, I could describe it in its entirety in one short sentence, and it would design itself in your mind. I’m sure it would work, I’m sure people would want to buy it and I’m sure there is a ready and continuing market for it.
However, I don’t have the ability to make a prototype (wholly in metal) as proof of concept. And even if I did, I wouldn’t know what the best next step would be to get it made and sold, whilst protecting my role in it.
I’ve been through this once before with Vango, an idea that they loved and reassured me about until they had the idea as a whole, then they stopped talking to me – I guess it was rubbish or we’ll soon see it in the shops!
Has anyone got any real life experience in prototyping or turning an idea into a product?
Thanks for reading,
Andy
No experience of prototyping in the real world but have 'played' and bodged items for myself in the past. Depending on the type of work involved (I've a arc wlder still in the box that i haven't ever used - so welding is out...) i'd be happy to offer you some help at getting a mk 1 into life. And i'd do it just for the fun too! ;)
Research and Development, or rip-off and duplicate, take your pick.
Extreme example. I worked for a guy who had invented a number of widgets for fiber optic networks. Had them patented and promtly pirated by GE. If the guy can ever beat them in his lawsuit he will be quite wealthy. I seriously doubt he can afford to maintain such against GE.
15 years off and on in the Bicycle industry; one company R&D's a new product, next year 100 companies r&d it. If that first company is a big one like Shimano, they can afford to vigorously protect their ideas. If it's a really good idea/product, from any company, it's only a matter of time before everyone has a version.
I think the way the little guy might go about it is to make, sell, market, and distribute the product in-house. If it is a patentable idea, do so but realise someone is going to come along and improve or alter it, and run with it. You can try and stop them in the courts or keep innovating and capture your share of the market as best you can.
I've a couple of things I would love to have made but know I don't have the skills, timing, the sense or motivation to pull it off as a business venture. Really it's that I just want one, nobody makes them anymore (or yet), and they are (could be) highly sought after. I have balked at the price of an item before and set out to make my own version. This has led me to have a much greater understanding of and appreciation for why some items cost as they do.
For working metals, maybe look into heavy ''foil'' weights for prototypes. Many can be cut with scissors, easily shaped, etc.
I don't want to discourage but I think that taking a design to an established company for consideration, is going to be a tough route.
As a consumer, I'm coming around to purchasing things that are made by people that: I know, know of, I can see a picture of making it, people who actually make their own stuff (see sopwamtos). I do or rather would like to think this is a slightly growing trend for consumers in general. As a (part-time/former, I don't like being a clerk) retailer, more often people are asking where things were made. Then they ask why it costs so much:rolleyes:. I would love to tell them, go 'make one' yourself.
Ive pm'd you AJB
Unfortunately as Bravo4 says 99.9% of the time it boils down to who has the biggest bank balance :rolleyes: when it comes to protecting your ideas/products.
Again as Bravo4 says the only way to do it is to constantly innovate and make your previous product obsolete.
This thread on BB is a good example of it:
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?101622-S-amp-W-ripped-off-a-french-designer (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?101622-S-amp-W-ripped-off-a-french-designer)
But maybe were getting a bit ahead of ourselves here :p
Thank you both, you get free ones of the production line :) Don't hold your breath!
Does it need to be metal to prove the concept?
As there are plenty of other low(ish) cost ways of making a model if it just for presentations etc.
Does it need to be metal to prove the concept?
As there are plenty of other low(ish) cost ways of making a model if it just for presentations etc.
I could answer that, but I'd have to shoot you :)
I've been thinking about that, and I think I could make a full size mock up, but it would have to be metal to prove it works and can take off vertically, oh bugger :)
Making good designs obsolete drives me nuts.
"they don't make em' any more
they closed the factory after the second world war"
on the soundtrack of "Gizmo!" 1977, an inventor's must-see.
The niche, go after the niche. A guy (Kent Ericson of Moots bikes) starts making MTB frames back in the day. MTB frame production gets big, goes overseas. The guy stays local and makes some of the first titanium frames, he innovates a design known as the YBB. The original design was over 100 years old. As the guy's competition with Ti frames grows, the guy basically gives a couple of makers the YBB design. He did not own the design so he did not have to protect it. I find it interesting just how helpful he was in sharing the design with his competition. The guy kept following his niche until the business was no longer enjoyable (maybe a bit beyond) and he sold off to Walt Disney Co., I think it was. Never really altered the design other than to keep up with component combatability inventions/set-backs. The frames are still hand-made, cost maybe $4,000 retail(frame only) and Moots has more business than they can handle.
I don't know much about the knife scene but I would imagine it similar. Quality and customer service are what the little guy needs to make it go. Learning the craft aspect of a trade is becoming harder and harder. Evidenced by some of Robin Wood's posts and links, and my old man. He makes custom furniture and is a one-man show with plenty of business, but absolutely no capacity to train an apprentice or sub-contract in any way. The business would simply not work.
Anyway, my hat is off to people who make things and I think you should go ahead and pursue a working prototype. A good idea really is only about 1% of it.
http://www.truefilms.com/Gizmo2.jpg
Eventually, someone got this idea to work.
edit: now that I see a free one is involved, :red: build it...
Did the voice of Darth Vader think Cosner was nuts for wanting to build a baseball park in a cornfield? Absolutely. Did the spirits of long departed, somewhat obscure ex-baseball players show up for a game in that very cornfield? Not really but you never know.
Which metal? Idea of Size ? What sort of tolerances?
PM if required. I work in aviation engineering with a wacking great workshop.
As a product design enginner, if you need any thing working out let me know, im full conversant in multipul types of computer aided design and currently going thru the patent prossess with one of my projects from uni.
Dependant on what you need making up i could be your man (although i dont have a wacking great workshop only a little cozy workshop)
helixpteron
04-04-2010, 21:45
Perhaps consider speaking with the inventor, Trevor Baylis, here (http://www.trevorbaylisbrands.com/).
slammer187
04-04-2010, 21:48
Keep your idea to your self and patent it...if it's really worth the money then patent it.
I want to show you an example of why you should keep it to yourself!
About a year ago I designed a wood gas stove....it differed from all other designs because I designed it to do this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6A_da97TGTU
I got an e-mail from a guy a few weeks later who stated his full name and where he was from to me asking how I built this stove and If I'd show him, So I made this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfrBdp11pyE
A few weeks ago I saw this in the papers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bmi-I6B2tC0
This guy had the same name and was from the same place.
This guy won €5,000
Do I care?...no, but credit to the designer would be nice. :)
Patent your idea and then no one can touch it...think before you do anything and don't be as stupid as me haha :lmao:
Maybe get a couple knocked up and put them out to a few guys on here to test them in the field. Take any comments or criticisms positively and tweak your designs to fit.
Going into production will be the hardest aspect but there are ways and means of achieving this with a little help fomr the right people, and it seems from the previous posts that folk are willing to help where they can.
If it's a product aimed directly at the bushy market then your customer numbers won't be that big anyway so it should be doable as a small operation.
Good luck with it anyway
Patents are a costly process to fully maintain. It is not the cost to get something patented (cue patent lawyers with initial patenting fees then their annual fees to maintain/renew the patent, etc.). Then there is the case that unless a patented idea is pretty much as far as it can go then someone will come up with a modifications that is sufficiently new to be classed as a new invention but in reality is just an improvement of your original idea but somehow it gets past the patent office. Then there are the ripoff merchants who can be anyone from a foreign factory that makes your invention then decides to copy it and sell it for themselves. Or the types that make it despite your patent relying on the fact that you will either not find out or not have the money to defend your patent. The fact of a patent is that it does give you a means to prove that an idea was your's but it doesn't provide any protection for the idea on its own. For protection you need to get legal, that takes money.
The best ideas are ones that you can develop through to a marketable product (with the manufacturing process developed) then sell it to a big company who can defend the patent. I once worked for a reasonable sized research company who had a couple of corridors of offices and small labs. The residents in those labs and offices had patents in their and the company's name that totalled into 3 figures. There were only about 14 rooms along those two corridors. There were other floors too that were probably similar in terms of the number of patent holders. That's all very good but I think the number of those patents that were money earners could be counted with the fingers. I think that basically goes to show that an idea is the start of the process not the end. Its good that you have that start and I wish you well in running with it. I think there are probably quite a few on this site who can work with metal. It just comes across like a forum with people who are quite handy.
If the kid is getting $$$ for an award in a contest, that is judged in some way based on the orignality of the design, as in designed by the designer that presents it for an award....that is incredibly lame.
Had to have a look at the BT site and the closest thing I could find at a glance, under Rules...
"1.20. The nature of a project will determine the equipment used in the project. The merit of a project will lie in the use made of scientific apparatus and in an exhibitor's understanding of its functions, not in the equipment itself."
:dunno: seems like the idea is still patentable.....for now
Credit to the designer would seem mandatory to me. No mention, really?
slammer187
04-04-2010, 22:54
If the kid is getting $$$ for an award in a contest, that is judged in some way based on the orignality of the design, as in designed by the designer that presents it for an award....that is incredibly lame.
Had to have a look at the BT site and the closest thing I could find at a glance, under Rules...
"1.20. The nature of a project will determine the equipment used in the project. The merit of a project will lie in the use made of scientific apparatus and in an exhibitor's understanding of its functions, not in the equipment itself."
:dunno: seems like the idea is still patentable.....for now
Credit to the designer would seem mandatory to me. No mention, really?
Yeah he claimed full credit but I wouldn't bother patenting it...it would cost too much and I have no real intention of selling the stove :)
Also AJB if you say what type of product you have the idea for (e.g. Tent, Rucksack etc) you will get plenty of help because I'm sure that there are plenty of people on the site who make things like this regularly!
PM for slammer187
I was overwhelmed with the process of filing for a patent, too much bs for me.:)
I have an idea for a bushcraft product. It’s very simple and I’m surprised no one else has done it, I could describe it in its entirety in one short sentence, and it would design itself in your mind. I’m sure it would work, I’m sure people would want to buy it and I’m sure there is a ready and continuing market for it.
However, I don’t have the ability to make a prototype (wholly in metal) as proof of concept. And even if I did, I wouldn’t know what the best next step would be to get it made and sold, whilst protecting my role in it.
I’ve been through this once before with Vango, an idea that they loved and reassured me about until they had the idea as a whole, then they stopped talking to me – I guess it was rubbish or we’ll soon see it in the shops!
Has anyone got any real life experience in prototyping or turning an idea into a product?
Thanks for reading,
Andy
Hi Andy,
My advice is as follows based on the fact I assume you have no ability to produce engineering drawings or make a prototype yourself...
1. Make some initial sketches of the product with some rough dimensions and sizes on them.
2. Have a cast about for someone in your local area who produces engineering drawings on one of the more common CAD packages such as Autocad or ProE etc. Talk to them and pay them to produce a set of initial engineering drawings for your design and get a disk / CD Rom from them with the CAD package drawing files on it. This is the bit you need to be mindful about. If you have an idea for a product but no engineering knowlege then It's likely the design engineer will have to have a reasonable ammount of input into the final design and getting the thing to be able to work from a manufacturing point of view. Ensure you keep a written note of the process that takes place ( email trail etc) this protects you if the design has significant merit and becomes very sucessful.
3. Once you have a set of fully dimentioned engineering drawings you can approach an engineering workshop and pay to have them make up the components or complete a prototype. Expect the cost for this to be reasonably expensive as one offs or short runs cost cash to make.
4. Once you have your prototypes you can trial them and see if any improvements can be made and feed the improvements back into the design.
5. Talking about patents is a bit premature as someone pointed out. The design has to be novel and patentable. You might need to consider the design you have thought up is not breaching an existing patent ( patents exist even without product in the marketplace) other avenues for some sort of protection might be a design registration for example... Taking professional advice from someone with knowlege of the patent/ design registration process is adviseable.
6. Once you have a product that is ready for production ( drawings sorted out production prototypes done etc) than you have a choice to either fund manufacture yourself ( starting a company making and marketing your product) or approaching an existing company to do this for you. There is a huge difference in going to a company with an prototype product professionally manufactured with drawings behind it and a design registration done with some idea of cost of manufacture and some market research done on market size and likely selling prices. Than going with some sketches and a prototype knocked up in the shed.
I know which one I'd like to be seeing if you were approaching my company.
My considered advice is to tell as few people about the idea as is practicable and to pay for services rather than getting stuff for free off of folk. That way if it's a winning idea that is going to take the bushcraft world by storm you have an audit trail and XXX was paid by you to produce drawings etc there is no ambiguity that XXX was part of the 'design team' and helping as part of some sort of deal real or imagined.
I would definately not talk to any manufacturers at the moment. I get about 2 calls at work a month from folk who have a winning idea for a new product etc... My advice to them is exactly what I've written above. I do not want to hear what the idea is as it just puts me in a difficult situation as if I'm working on a product that has a similar concept or idea then I'm going to have to prove it was 'our' idea not the person on the other end of the phone if things go pear shaped.. That advice comes straight from our patent lawyer.
All of the above is not aimed at jibing any generous or kind offers you have been given. It's just my practical advice based on my experience in engineering, design for manufacture, product marketing and product protection.
Good luck and I wish you well.
Hi Johnboy,
Thank you very much for that. That’s more or less the process that I’d arrived at in my head with specific variations due to the nature of the product. The importance of the paper trail is something I’m very familiar with from previous work rolls. The point about not relying on ‘amateur’ input but paying for and recording professional services is well made.
Very helpful, thank you again
Andy
twisted firestarter
05-04-2010, 14:26
You might want to read up on Non Disclosure Agreements or N.D.A.'s which can help keep your idea under wraps when you talk to 3rd parties...
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1074415494
.
markheolddu
05-04-2010, 17:12
AJB, I am a fabricator/sheet metal worker, my advice would be to find a local fabrication shop and talk to them about getting your design made up. Depending on how fancy or complicated it is they should be able to make a working version from a simple drawing. We make up one off bits and pieces all the time from drawings on the back of envelopes/fag packets.
A lot of workshops are struggeling for work at the moment so it should be easy to find one in your area.
Mark
you have had offers here the same but if i can help with CAD drawings etc I used to Fly AutoCAD for a living as a design and production engineer.
Patents as as been said are only worth the cost of the lawyer that you pay to back them up and its fairly easy to re-engineer to get round most of them lots of companiues Patent a variaty of designs for the same product to help stop this (lego did 20 different interlocking block designs but only use one)
To do a sales pack for a company you will have lot do a a lot of work on costings and understand how the priceing models work in retail and distribution etc you may find that to get a sensible RRP (ie one people will pay) that you have to make it for pennies so every body in the supply chain can take their cut (even fair cuts add up quickly)
ATB
Duncan
Cheers Duncan and thanks everyone for your help and advice.
Andy
andy theres a few good metal work shops in adlington and surrounding areas!! i might know some peeps who could help out.
Cheers mate, I think the next step is to talk to someone uninvolved about the processes involved. How was your trip south? And I have to say, I love your tag line :)
One point about patents if you do go that way is you have to pay for a patent lawyer to do a search to see if there are any conflicting patents. Any novel idea could have infringed patents even if the inventor has never seen the patent involved.
Some very sound advice given. In some ways I envy you for having the idea but not for having to find a way to get it out there. It seems you could still have the hard part to come. I'm sure I heard something about invention being 10% inspiration and 90% perspiration. Or it that something else? As far as patents go they don't need fancy engineering drawings judging by previous, successful patents are to go by. However they are probably essential to take it further with companies who might invest / licence the idea. Probably better to take as much of the development out of other's hands as possible. Audit trails are also important I'd imagine.
I can't wait to see what it is when it hits the market. Judging by my gear freakery I'd imagine you have one customer waiting right here to buy one (based on past history with good ideas).
FYI first contact with a manufacture has been made!
Come on andy give us all a clue!!
Yeah right, but if it works you can have a free one - already had three replies to my email and we're talking NDAs!
Yikes.
I find threads like this so frustrating - I just want to know what it's going to be! :D
slammer187
03-05-2010, 19:30
Yeah right, but if it works you can have a free one - already had three replies to my email and we're talking NDAs!
Yikes.
Ah go on...at least tell us what type of product it is? Shelter, Cooking, Fire making, Sleeping, Water, Clothing, Electronic, Lighting? :)
I have an idea for a bushcraft product. It?s very simple and I?m surprised no one else has done it [snip] Has anyone got any real life experience in prototyping or turning an idea into a product?
Yes, I've had some experience. Others have mentioned non-disclosure agreements, that's good advice if you plan on protecting your idea somehow. Make sure that anyone to whom you reveal the idea has signed such an agreement first. If you can't find a suitable form of words using Google then you'd better stop now because you aren't up for the rest of it! Don't try to word it yourself, you might miss out something important or even say something that is read in a way you didn't intend. Even lawyers get caught like that sometimes, and don't even mention locking blades around here...
People have talked about patents but they haven't given much detail about the patent process. I have experience of that too and it's not exactly fun. As has been said a patent can be of dubious value although it might be worth getting a patent if you wanted to wave it under the nose of a potential backer such as a venture capital company. (I have experience of venture capital companies. You need one like you need an extra hole in your head.:( ) One problem with patents is that they're long-winded and expensive (maybe that's two problems) and apart from European Patents you really need separate patents for each country (and that means separate patent clerks, fees, applications, rules, etc. etc.). One patent might not be enough, very often products develop, and suddenly the new product isn't covered by the old patent and you're off to the cleaners again. When you patent an invention the UK Patent Office MUST publish it. So if you only patent it in one country it's a free-for-all in the rest of the world because there are people out there reading all the patents published just to steal the ideas. There are also people reading the patent applications who will then write to all the applicants and offer to take their ideas further on their behalf. For a fee, of course. They are usually crooks, ignore them.
Nobody seems to have mentioned copyright. You get copyright automatically in law whenever you produce an original work. It doesn't really matter what that work is, it can be a drawing, text, a model, whatever. One way of protecting your idea is to produce a sketch and/or description, sign it and date it and seal it into and envelope, and mail it to yourself by recorded delivery. Then DO NOT open it, but take it to a bank, a solicitor, a notary, or some suitably upstanding service provider of that sort for safe keeping. There will probably be a charge for that. The idea of this is to be able to prove that it was your idea at whatever date was on the Royal Mail date stamp on the envelope. If anybody pinches the idea you can at least prove you thought of it first. You might want to take it to the Post Office instead of just putting it in the post box, to ask them to do a nice legible date stamp for you. You don't need to draw a letter C in a circle or anything like that, that's nonsense. You just need to be able to prove the date. Copyright can cover you more or less world wide and it's more or less free until you decide to take somebody to task over it. Then you'll probably wish you'd never been born, never mind thought of the idea in the first place. Make no mistake, any legal action at all is usually a lose-lose situation.
I think you said you can't believe that nobody else has thought of it. How do you know? Maybe someone has. Maybe they're in the same position as you. Maybe they're just waiting for you to start making them and then they'll blackmail you. One of the things about patents is that publication of the idea before the date that the patent _application_ is made automatically invalidates the patent. That's one reason why you need a non-disclosure agreement, because if there is such an agreement with somebody when you tell that somebody (not any other somebody) about your idea then it isn't treated as being published. The Patent Office uses a very broad definition of the word 'published'. The case history of the Bic Biro is used to illustrate this point in first year patent law lectures. The inventor gave one prototype biro to a friend. Published. No patent for Mr. Bic. Some friend he turned out to be.
Part of the procedure for granting a patent is a "search". In the UK the Patent Office does this, and you have to pay fees for it. If they find something which they think may affect your ability to get a patent they'll tell you about it. They'll tell you if they think it's what the patent agents call a "straight knockout" -- in which case there is "prior art" and you can forget the patent unless you can re-phrase your claims to avoid it -- or if perhaps some part of your invention has something in common with parts of the other patent, in which case you'll have the opportunity to modify your claims. You can also withdraw the application before publication so nobody gets to see it. The UK Patent Office is pretty good to private individuals in my experience. I think they'll often try hard to help someone who is obviously going to be unfamiliar with their processes. They produce a few very useful information packs and what you need to do is all very clearly set out. I have no personal experience of other patent offices, only patent agents and they're, well, mixed.
My understanding of patents in the US is that they're relatively easier to get than UK patents and they tend to be relatively less well thought of. UK patents are treated with some reverence; US patents are there to be challenged in the courts at least, or possibly gazumped. You don't want to get involved in any of that.
One way of making sure that nobody else can patent your idea is to publish it. Sounds daft, but very often companies publish their new product ideas in Outlandish Magazine so that (a) nobody else can patent it and they don't have to but (b) nobody much gets to hear about it because Outlandish Magazine has a circulation list a bit like the one in "Conspiracy Theory". A very old friend of mine was a patent agent for British Leyland (that's how long ago it was:)), and one of his jobs there was to read all kinds of weird (no, not that sort of weird:)) magazines to look for things like that. Once he got a respectable sum of money from a car magazine when he rang them to tell them what he'd found about a new BMW model name in "Ferret Catcher's Weekly". Well that's the name of the mag he said he found it in, he never would tell me what it really was. :) But it really was the new BMW model name that was still under wraps, and they really did publish it like that so nobody else could use it, and he got a scoop.
Not exactly finally, but lastly for now, someone also said that the good idea is one percent of the work. I'd go a bit further than that. It's a lot less than one percent. If you want to give it a run for its money and make some money out of it it's going to take a lot of time, effort and heartache. And money. Unless you plan to take this very seriously then the best thing is not to worry about anybody ripping the idea off and just be philosophical about it when they do. Which, if it's really a good idea, and it's really true that nobody else has thought of it, they will. The ultimate accolade is probably when the Chinese start to make forgeries.