What do you think of GPS units?

[arctic hobo]

Personally I've never liked 'em. They're not that detailed and they run out of batteries faster than you could ever replace them. One of my main points of pride is that I can look at a map and instantly see it from an on-the-ground perspective, so except in very confusing terrain I've never had a need for one. But looking around this forum everyone seems to have one, and seem to love them and use them too, even if just as a backup. It just occured to me (I'm not condemning anyone!) that it's not really very bushcrafty, being a bit of a high-tech gadget that at the end of the day isn't essential...? :?:
So I thought I'd make this poll to see how you all feel about them! Feel free to post all your points of view :wave:

[Celtic Dragon]

By the looks of things on here, most of us are gadget freaks. I don't have 1 yet, but do intend getting as a backup, and 1 for the car too. I to pride myself on being able to use a map and compass, and be able to give grid refs, but I don't have maps of the entire country, which is where GPS would help me no end (bread crumb trails)

[RobertsonPau]

I've used one a few times in the past and think they are a great piece of kit, often give superb accuracy. Some that I've used give a ten or twelve figure grid ref which sounds impressive but exceeds the accuracy of non military spec systems IIRC so can be misleading. I've not used the more recent versions so I don't know if they are the same. Not got one but want one. Shiney, mmm want one, mm now.:o):

But I don't think they should be seen as a replacement for map and compass skills, not that I'm suggesting any body here would think that way.

Paul

[arctic hobo]

FYI, the error that the US military originally put into all civilian GPS units has been removed, so they're all now the same accuracy :biggthump

[fiacha]

great bit of kit. would never rely on it alone for navigation, but I usually have it on when i'm in unfamiliar territory as a reference.

use it most when I am hunting / fishing on the loughs;
location of river mouths (3 miles of reedbeds look very similar in heavy fog)
hazards
good fishing spots
bad fishing spots ! ie the spot where I always loose my most expensive plugs :roll:

and geocaching

[Celtic Dragon]

FYI, the error that the US military originally put into all civilian GPS units has been removed, so they're all now the same accuracy :biggthump

You are right AH, they have. Still strikes me as funny that the US troops still get lost with it, I'd hate to think what they are like with maps :D

[Abbe Osram]

I cant vote but would vote if there would be a sentence saying:
Would like to try one but cant afford one. :wink: I would give my poll on that one. I am still working with map and compass but would like to pin point position of my traps so I am dam sure I find them after a lot of snow.
My dream with a gps is that I can run around hunting or trapping without all the time checking with my maps. But I don't know if GPS is good for that ......never had one because they are so dam expensive here.

cheers
Abbe

[Motorbike Man]

I have one and use it a lot. If you use it carefully, batteries can last a while. I tend to use mine every now and then rather than having it switched on permanently so I get a few days out of a set. Having said that, I can still use and still carry a map and compass and think it's essential to do so, just incase.

[hootchi]

I don't have one, probably couldn't afford it anyway but don't want one. I think they would be useful if you have one but I can cope well enough without.

I suppose it's like phones ages ago, people thought they weren't necessary but where would we be without them now. :?: :roll:

[MagiKelly]

I have one and would have no real use for it on land but out on the Loch's in my Canoe it is fairly handy.

[greg2935]

Very good point Abbe, there is no way I could justify the price at the moment either, I wouldn't mind having a go with one though, just to see what they are like.

[Pict]

Most of the places I go to do bushcraft have very distinct terrain that is tough to get lost in. I have never had a problem finding my way with map and compass. Remember, mankind went to the moon calculating his way with a slide-rule. I ask you who has the better math skills, those old men or the new kids who can only punch buttons?

In areas where the terrain is very flat and closed in with few reference points, or on a desert, a GPS could be a life saving back-up to solid navigation skills. If yopu don't have a map and compass and know how to use them a GPS could very easily get you deep into the bush and leave you lost.

A close friend hunting in Idaho once switched from his second day campsite to his first day campsite while navigating with his GPS after a long days hunt. He started out from "Camp 2" but told the GPS he was headed to "Camp 1". The thing sent him deep into the bush before he discovered the error. The GPS will never be foolproof as long as you are foolish enough to not learn basic navigation. Mac

[MartiniDave]

I have a Garmin Etrex, got it for geocaching but use it quite often now for general navigation. I do back it up with a compass, especially amongst trees where it can get confused about direction.

Dave

[PC2K]

i don't even have the funds and time to go anywhere far away, let alone afford a GPS. I know the local "woods" good enough, don't even need a map or compass... GPS's might come in handy if i go further aways, but that not to csae yet... first i got to find a buddy.

[george]

I never use it for navigation on land - only for pinpointing positions and checking my map nav. (I think I'm here, what does the GPS think?) IMO it's so easy to make basic mistakes with them like Pict's friend in Idaho, if you try to do too many complex things with them.
However on the water it's a different story, I find them indispensable and along with a depth sounder they can save hours of sitting at the chart table with a calculator. Because of the amount of maths involved in navigation on the sea I'm much more likely to make a mistake if I try to do it myself rather than let the GPS end the depth sounder take the strain.

George

[bambodoggy]

use it most when I am hunting / fishing on the loughs;
location of river mouths (3 miles of reedbeds look very similar in heavy fog)
hazards
good fishing spots
bad fishing spots ! ie the spot where I always loose my most expensive plugs

Nice one, I'd say this and Abbe's proposed use to note his trap locations would be about the very best use for a GPS in terms of bushcraft.....fog on water can be very tricky I'd imagine.

I had an old green screen civvy one but didn't find it very good, it was very slow and not that detailed.... then I got issued a nice Magellan one while I was in the TA....now that's very nice and very accurate....but to be fair by the time I've dug it out and got a reading off it I am quite capable of reading of my 6 or 8 figure GR from just a glance at the map. When I joined we learned basic nav right up to micro-nav and I'm actually faster with map and compass than I am with the GPS....having said that, for military purposes it is good for calling in air support or artillery (not too bushcrafti)....

I wouldn't even say it was good as a back up....as I said, I can read a map properly...why would I need a back up? I don't light two fires so I have a back up in case one goes out or carve two bow drill sets etc....why would I do it with Nav... :?:
To me it's a safety line that can very easily be done without (although don't get me wrong, it has it uses in very unfamiliar territory) but more worrying it can give less map skilled the confidence to do things that are really beyond them....fine till it all goes wrong... :shock:

Long and short: It's a nice toy to have and quite a good idea for long expeditions in very wild country but no substitute for good map skills. It certainly has it's place in the Military and for the above uses I have mentioned...it's also good in cars if you travel the country a lot (but again a good map will surfice)....remember that in a lot of built up cities the GPS won't work as the tall buildings block out the signal... Basically unless you plan to use it like Abbe wants to or Fiacha does (or as our Scotish friends do at sea and in their lochs) then you'll find you're wasting your money...you'll use it for the first few months and then less and less until it sits at the bottom of your bergan only carried because you feel guilty for buying it and not taking it...

Well....that's my opinion anyway... :o):

[Doc]

They are very very good if you use them correctly, and very, very bad if you don't.

Their best use is for confirming that your estimated position (based on traditional map and compass skills/dead reckoning) is correct. This can help hone your skills further. They are also handy as a clock, speedometer, record of distance, sunset/sunrise calculator, and for finding the car again when parked at festivals, etc.

Someday, I 'll go on a cruise and bring a sextant and almanac and have a go at celestial navigation. A GPS would be great to check the results.

The worst thing about them is they can encourage a lazy attitude to navigation. Without a GPS, I am always looking around, referring to the map, occasionally getting a precise fix by resection, counting steps, etc. If the mist comes down I really, really need to know where I am.

When I have a GPS with me, I have to consciously fight a tendency to be less rigorous about all this. And this despite 20 years of map and compass and 1 year of using a GPS. There must be a great temptation for newcomers to use a technological fix rather than spend time acquiring skills. I would submit that the bushcraft philosophy 'know more, carry less' applies here.

I have heard reports of people calling for rescue on a mobile phone, and being unable to say where they are, beyond a GPS lat/long fix. They had taken a GPS but no map.

They don't work well in forests.

Last point; I recently found my Silva type 3 compass had a 175 degree error (probably stored incorrectly or dropped- oh well, good excuse to buy a type 54!) Rocks in Knoydart and Skye may be magnetic. Even a compass cannot always be trusted.

[JimH]

So I thought I'd make this poll to see how you all feel about them! Feel free to post all your points of view :wave:

From a bushcraft POV, I have one but hardly use it. It's a cracking road navigation tool, and I bought it for use on the motorbike. It has done sterling service in that respect, but the model in question (Garmin 3+) is a bit heavy/bulky for routine carrying out and about.

Having said that, I was thinking whilst I was out at the weekend that its route log would be a perfect adjunct to a bushcraft diary about my local area and the resources therein. Perhaps if I start blogging, I'll carry it to give readers some context.

In 10 years time when they are [a] more sophisticated/downloadable and [b] a 99p addition to your digital watch/phone we'll all wonder how we got on without them...

Jim.

[den]

I have never had the need to use a GPS on land in the UK. Used it in the desert a bit but only to confirm what i have already found with map and compass. A nice aid to confirm where you are thats about it with me.
The reason i bought my last one was for locating my buoys when dropping pots all over the deep blue sea.

[Stevie]

I have a Garmin Etrex, got it for geocaching but use it quite often now for general navigation. I do back it up with a compass, especially amongst trees where it can get confused about direction.

Dave

Mine's a Garmin Etrex Venture. It's a nice piece of kit but my compass still comes first. The GPS is a back up. It was very useful in the fog on one occasion though...couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of me!

[bambodoggy]

The GPS is a back up. It was very useful in the fog on one occasion though...couldn't see more than 10 feet in front of me!

To me that's exactly when you should be practicing your Nav....walking bearings and counting paces....then you'll not need to worry about having the GPS with you.... I'd rather have a handfull of ten pebbles :wink:

If you're Nav is up to it and you are on land (I can't speak for Sea as I have no idea) then as I said below there is just no need for a back up...
I know that 63 left foot paces of mine on flat level ground is pretty much exactly 100 Metres....

Just my opinion and certainly no offence meant :biggthump

[spamel]

I believe GPS to be an excellent tool enabling an unskilled person, who has taken a couple of hours to get to grips with it, to navigate in unknown terrain with little to no assistance.

And this is where the problem lies, untrained people out in a possibly hazardous enviornment. Just imagine the possible outcomes:

Ooops, didn't put fresh batteries in before I left - Result, totally lost.

Ooops, I've just dropped the damned thing and the screen is totally knackered -Result, an unscheduled night out in the woods.

And besides from relying on it and getting lazy with our core map reading skills, it takes some of the enjoyment away from the walk. Constantly looking down at a screen instead of the panoramic view in front of you whilst taking a bearing is not my idea of fun, and waiting for a satellite fix when you could have got a map out and done the job just as quickly seems like a good way of holding yourself up. Maybe I should get my brew kit out at the same time!

I spoke to a guy in Currys when I bought my PDA who said they were great because you can put a GPS on them and you have all your navigational needs. Wrong attitude matey.

I do think GPS has a place in bushcraft and all outdoor pursuits, and I own a Garmin 12 which is still in a brand new condition (possibly due to me not relying on it), but people should consider that if they own a GPS but not a map of the area and a compass, then they shouldn't be going further than the local shops.

[BIG-TARGET]

Problem is that most of the trails in the state forest I frequent, the trails have been around since the indians lived in NJ. And are pretty well established. The only way I can get lost, Is if I'm walk around right after taking a major crack to the head! :yikes:

[familne]

I've used GPS for a few years now for work (locating monitoring plots, rare plants etc.) - it's become an absolutely essential piece of kit. When EGNOS comes online (scheduled for march 2005 but don't hold your breath) it will be even better (3m accuracy). I've never had a problem with it's accuracy or loss of signal etc and would recommend it as a back up to traditional navigation skills. I think the emergency services also recommend people carry one because if you fall, become disorientated etc. you can hopefully quote your grid ref (that is if you haven't dropped it, but a strong lanyard and karabiner should solve that).

I've read elsewhere that traditionalists who would never consider carrying a gps have had accidents and have given totally wrong map co-ordinates to the rescue teams. At least if they had a gps they could have cross referenced their readings with it. I think gps technology should be fully embraced as an excellent safety tool but obviously not a substitute for common sense skills.

[Celtic Dragon]

I've just bought 1 today (Garmin Fortrex 201), I thought GPS was already at 3m accuracy although I've just started playing with mine, I haven't got aan accuaracy reading of better than 16m!!

[Stevie]

To me that's exactly when you should be practicing your Nav....walking bearings and counting paces....then you'll not need to worry about having the GPS with you.... I'd rather have a handfull of ten pebbles :wink:

If you're Nav is up to it and you are on land (I can't speak for Sea as I have no idea) then as I said below there is just no need for a back up...
I know that 63 left foot paces of mine on flat level ground is pretty much exactly 100 Metres....

Just my opinion and certainly no offence meant :biggthump

No offence taken and in a “normal situation” I would agree with you completely, a map and a compass is the best way :0: … but picture yourself descending nearly 4,000 M down a mountain in the Bernese Oberland. You descend through thick clouds and then in to fog. You haven’t been able to come down the same way that you went up. You try to keep on a bearing but you don’t have any visual reference points and you can’t walk along looking at your compass as you may miss your step. When walking on the flat with out a visual aid most people will tend to stray to one side or the other, coming down a mountain doesn’t help this. You can’t count paces coming down either as when climbing you don’t actually have any. When you get to the bottom…which way do you go? You know the town is on a road 3 KM away on a bearing of 285 from where you started you assent but where are you now? Where do you get your bearings from? :hmmm:

You could of course camp up for the night and wait for all to clear up. You’ve got your kit with you. :chill: The search teams will be sent out for you as you’ve left a plan back at the Chalet and the Swiss teams are very good so they will find you. :pack:

Or you could turn on the GPS, get your position and make your way home using your compass. As I said, it’s a back up…but a very useful one. Our lives weren't at risk but it did help ...and the bar was closing :trink26:

[Stevie]

I've just bought 1 today (Garmin Fortrex 201), I thought GPS was already at 3m accuracy although I've just started playing with mine, I haven't got aan accuaracy reading of better than 16m!!

The best I have had on mine in the Midlands is an accuracy of 17 feet but it does depend on how many satellites you are picking up and whether your kit is WAAS/EGNOS compatible. These are a couple of extra satellites that have been put up to calculate the drift and give a more precise location. :rolmao:

[Bob Hurley]

It wouldn't be particularly helpful here. Most of the people who get to pay the enormous rescue bills have a GPS, a cell phone, or both. That still doesn't get them home. That is, of course, compounded by the fact that neither device is reliable in our mountains due to spotty coverage.

I also don't think it adds anything to learning bushcraft.

[Pict]

I can recall one time that if I had a GPS we would have gone farther, maybe even foolishly. My daughter and I had climbed to the top of a large mountain here (Batatal) in winter. You wouldn’t think winter in Brazil is much to deal with but we were wet, the wind was blowing hard and the top of the mountain was covered in thick blowing fog. The temp was just above freezing with a below freezing windchill. These conditions are very rare here and really only occur on the mountaintops.

We had vertical walls extending to the right and left with a ramp in the middle that cut right to a little plateau. Another ramp cut to the left 200 meters to cross onto the top of the mountain. On a nice day it would have been a cakewalk after a long hard climb. The trouble was that if you didn’t find the top of that ramp again you couldn’t get down without a lot of searching along the cliff tops in the wind and fog. A GPS would have made that easy. As it was we turned around and let the mountain win, it did let us win on another day.

Later we heard that three 20-somethings were lost up there for three days in that same fog and freezing temps These three guys actually burned clothing to stay warm, go figure. They also got a hefty rescue bill. Mac

[stonyman]

I have a Garmin Etrex, but I still use the good old fashioned Silva compass and an up to date map, the GPs is very useful if I am out walking a so called guided walk in the Forest of Dean, not so good with the marker posts down there.

[arctic hobo]

No offence taken and in a “normal situation” I would agree with you completely, a map and a compass is the best way :0: … but picture yourself descending nearly 4,000 M down a mountain in the Bernese Oberland. You descend through thick clouds and then in to fog. You haven’t been able to come down the same way that you went up. You try to keep on a bearing but you don’t have any visual reference points and you can’t walk along looking at your compass as you may miss your step. When walking on the flat with out a visual aid most people will tend to stray to one side or the other, coming down a mountain doesn’t help this. You can’t count paces coming down either as when climbing you don’t actually have any. When you get to the bottom…which way do you go? You know the town is on a road 3 KM away on a bearing of 285 from where you started you assent but where are you now? Where do you get your bearings from? :hmmm:

I'm sorry but it is completely feasible to use a compass in fog. I have done many times without incident.
I agree with Phil in that GPS units may encourage lazy navigation as you always have something to fall back on... OK for the seasoned hillwalkers but people getting into walking will look at a GPS and think "Why use a map??". The way I see it.

[leon-1]

Well interesting thread.

GPS are a very good bit of kit, I like them, but they are an aid to navigation, they are not invaluable or a substitute for good navigational skills with map and compass. I do think that they can be used very effectively as a peice of safety equipment.

My reasoning is that when things go wrong, things can get badly out of control, and this includes the map reading side of life. If you want to extract a casualty quickly you will not want to be messing around with maps and GPS, when configured correctly, can be both fast, effective and reassuring. Even if the accuracy is down to 20 or 30 meters a helicopter will have no problems in finding you.

I have seen people who are very good at map reading dig themselves into a bigger hole than others because they will not believe that they have made a mistake, overconfidence can kill.

I have seen people on Fan Fawr get hopelessly lost in blizzard like conditions because they did'nt do the right thing and stop and wait it out. They tried to navigate in conditions which were nearly white out, this was due to overconfidence, if there had been a casualty and the mountain rescue had to come to a grid sent them they would of been miles away and the next chance to get them would be when those conditions abated.

GPS are not essential, they are a good backup and are good for verification and IMO a very good piece of safety kit :-)

[innocent bystander]

I also have a GPS12 in as new condition. I don't really need it, but i still like having it. I like gadgets. But thats just me. I still use the map and compass anyway..

[Stevie]

I'm sorry but it is completely feasible to use a compass in fog. I have done many times without incident.
I agree with Phil in that GPS units may encourage lazy navigation as you always have something to fall back on... OK for the seasoned hillwalkers but people getting into walking will look at a GPS and think "Why use a map??". The way I see it.

:newbie: Although I no longer live in the mountains, for my (and possibly other's) future reference please enlighten me how it should be done in such a situation :super: :super:

[arctic hobo]

I presume you mean navigating in fog. Well as to following a bearing, you simply find it and walk, and of course check regularly to ensure you are on course.
Usually it's easy to tell where you're going in mountainous terrain, as you simply need to study the map carefully and you can tell which way you're going. You should go slowly of course, as if you lose concentration and just charge off you are bound to get lost. There's a technique called "aspect of slope" where you you point the compass straight downhill and it tells you where around a hillside you are. Following easy features like streams or ridges is also good as you know exactly where you are and where you're going (provided of course they are on the map!). And working to a waypoint style system ensures that if you do get lost you know fairly precisely where you are.
As I mentioned I am lucky in how easily I visualise terrain from a map, but I'm sure anyone can learn with just simple practice. Basically the thing to remember is that the contours are your friend; other things may come and go, and contours are harder to read than roads, but learn them and you'll never go wrong.
If the terrain is flat and featureless, you use a method that is slow but effective: one man walks on to the edge of visibility while the other sights his bearing and tells him left or right - I remember one incident in Norway that had us calling "til høyre!" "til venstre!" to each other for hours on end across a huge glacier (one place you don't want to go wrong!)... it's slow but it works.
There's probably more that I've forgotten :roll: :lol:

[Stevie]

I presume you mean navigating in fog. Well as to following a bearing, you simply find it and walk, and of course check regularly to ensure you are on course.
Usually it's easy to tell where you're going in mountainous terrain, as you simply need to study the map carefully and you can tell which way you're going. You should go slowly of course, as if you lose concentration and just charge off you are bound to get lost. There's a technique called "aspect of slope" where you you point the compass straight downhill and it tells you where around a hillside you are. Following easy features like streams or ridges is also good as you know exactly where you are and where you're going (provided of course they are on the map!). And working to a waypoint style system ensures that if you do get lost you know fairly precisely where you are.
As I mentioned I am lucky in how easily I visualise terrain from a map, but I'm sure anyone can learn with just simple practice. Basically the thing to remember is that the contours are your friend; other things may come and go, and contours are harder to read than roads, but learn them and you'll never go wrong.
If the terrain is flat and featureless, you use a method that is slow but effective: one man walks on to the edge of visibility while the other sights his bearing and tells him left or right - I remember one incident in Norway that had us calling "til høyre!" "til venstre!" to each other for hours on end across a huge glacier (one place you don't want to go wrong!)... it's slow but it works.
There's probably more that I've forgotten :roll: :lol:

I agree with what you have said for following a bearing in fog. I too have used the “shouting method” on glaciers. We called the lead person the sacrificial goat because if he disappeared you knew you had found the edge. :o): But this answer appears to assume that you know what bearing you need to get to your destination. What if, as in the situation I described earlier, you do not know your current location and have no visual reference points with which to calculate it?

In Switzerland we still have National Service and navigation training is standard. Those of us who went in to the Air Force did so in greater detail. Although aircraft have inertial navigation systems basic ground navigation is also taught for what I think is called over here “Escape and Evade”. Although you have a rough idea where you are from you flight plan / target / egress course you don’t know exactly where you are until you fix your position. Until you are able to do so you do not rush around or head off on what was your old heading as it could lead you in to trouble rather than home. :oT:

Also Ordnance Survey Maps are a lot better than those you find abroad. :ekt: Like many of you, I have used maps with out any contour lines on and just show the very basic details such as towns, rivers and major roads. Here you have to rely upon your compass, your note book and your pedometer / step count but you do have the opportunity to triangulate your position and then choose an appropriate visual marker or way point as you call it for your bearing. Such is not possible in fog. :?:

[alick]

Map and compass first for me, but I'm thinking of getting GPS (i) for help with in-car nav and (ii) for bushcraft to help me find my way back to interesting trees / fungus / plants etc in a decent sized wood that I don't know well enough.

I'm looking at a mini GPS / bluetooth "mouse" that will work with memory map software on a laptop and with a Sony Clié PDA since I have all these already.

[bambodoggy]

I agree with what you have said for following a bearing in fog. I too have used the “shouting method” on glaciers. We called the lead person the sacrificial goat because if he disappeared you knew you had found the edge. :o): But this answer appears to assume that you know what bearing you need to get to your destination. What if, as in the situation I described earlier, you do not know your current location and have no visual reference points with which to calculate it?

In Switzerland we still have National Service and navigation training is standard. Those of us who went in to the Air Force did so in greater detail. Although aircraft have inertial navigation systems basic ground navigation is also taught for what I think is called over here “Escape and Evade”. Although you have a rough idea where you are from you flight plan / target / egress course you don’t know exactly where you are until you fix your position. Until you are able to do so you do not rush around or head off on what was your old heading as it could lead you in to trouble rather than home. :oT:

Also Ordnance Survey Maps are a lot better than those you find abroad. :ekt: Like many of you, I have used maps with out any contour lines on and just show the very basic details such as towns, rivers and major roads. Here you have to rely upon your compass, your note book and your pedometer / step count but you do have the opportunity to triangulate your position and then choose an appropriate visual marker or way point as you call it for your bearing. Such is not possible in fog. :?:

Steve, I'm sorry to be pedantic about this but I have a bit of a thing for hot nav skills..... so...

The fog you describe didn't just switch itself on like a light, as the fog comes in then so you make your current point the waypoint you work from (so you do know your current position). If you went out from the start in the fog then the start point is your first way point. Either way you will always know where you last were and were you are now, as I'm sure you'll agree this is elementary in whatever you are doing in the mountains. You clearly have great experience in the mountains so you will have noticed the fog coming in and prepared yourself acordingly. Had you carried out the pinpoint nav skills that Chris talks about below and you clearly are more than familiar with then you would have had no need of the GPS to tell you were you were at any given point along the route you have taken.

Imagine a situation with somebody in the hills who has a GPS but doesn't have the same traditional skills you and I have, they aren't watching their surroundings, keeping tabs on the weather, their last waypoint (physical rather than gps) and concentrating on the route ahead, maybe they missed the fog coming in so fast because they had their head down scrutinizing the GPS waiting for a full SAT lock...the next thing...bam, they are in your position, the fog has arrived...and just at that point the SAT's go offline, the GPS batteries run out, the walker trips and breaks the GPS or any other reason why these things break and usually when you need them most. Now you or I could Navigate safely off that Mountain still, albeit rather slowly and painstakingly... but could the lesser skilled walker?

Don't get me wrong, as I said below I have one and it lives in my bergan... Had I been in your position I think it fairly likely that I'd have got it out and used it as you did....but only for speed, convenience (last orders and all that :wink: ) and for the fact that I could because it was there. Had I been in your position without it, having the skills we have would have meant it made no odds to me one way or the other. A few extra hours as the going is a little slower but the same end result. And I'd also venture to say that had I been using my map and compass and awareness of my surroudings I cannot see how I would have got into that situation in the first place.

This is maybe what I mean about not needing them as a backup and the importance of traditional skills....

I don't think any of us disagree on that... in short, as you say handy and convenient but definitely not nessarsary...and in extreme cases...possibly dangerous... :biggthump

[RovingArcher]

I don't care for them. I'm not much for trusting my life to something that needs batteries and I'm not one that cares much for pushing buttons. Yeah, I'm sitting at a puter :roll: Besides, there is something to be said about getting lost. :shock: :wink:

[Stevie]

Steve, I'm sorry to be pedantic about this but I have a bit of a thing for hot nav skills..... so...

The fog you describe didn't just switch itself on like a light, as the fog comes in then so you make your current point the waypoint you work from (so you do know your current position). If you went out from the start in the fog then the start point is your first way point. Either way you will always know where you last were and were you are now, as I'm sure you'll agree this is elementary in whatever you are doing in the mountains. You clearly have great experience in the mountains so you will have noticed the fog coming in and prepared yourself acordingly. Had you carried out the pinpoint nav skills that Chris talks about below and you clearly are more than familiar with then you would have had no need of the GPS to tell you were you were at any given point along the route you have taken.

Imagine a situation with somebody in the hills who has a GPS but doesn't have the same traditional skills you and I have, they aren't watching their surroundings, keeping tabs on the weather, their last waypoint (physical rather than gps) and concentrating on the route ahead, maybe they missed the fog coming in so fast because they had their head down scrutinizing the GPS waiting for a full SAT lock...the next thing...bam, they are in your position, the fog has arrived...and just at that point the SAT's go offline, the GPS batteries run out, the walker trips and breaks the GPS or any other reason why these things break and usually when you need them most. Now you or I could Navigate safely off that Mountain still, albeit rather slowly and painstakingly... but could the lesser skilled walker?

Don't get me wrong, as I said below I have one and it lives in my bergan... Had I been in your position I think it fairly likely that I'd have got it out and used it as you did....but only for speed, convenience (last orders and all that :wink: ) and for the fact that I could because it was there. Had I been in your position without it, having the skills we have would have meant it made no odds to me one way or the other. A few extra hours as the going is a little slower but the same end result. And I'd also venture to say that had I been using my map and compass and awareness of my surroudings I cannot see how I would have got into that situation in the first place.

This is maybe what I mean about not needing them as a backup and the importance of traditional skills....

I don't think any of us disagree on that... in short, as you say handy and convenient but definitely not nessarsary...and in extreme cases...possibly dangerous... :biggthump

Hi Bambodoggy,

Actually the fog did just appear, it was there whan I came out of the clouds (or did the cloud just get thicker ) :rolmao: never mind let us move on. As before, I agree with what you have said but the point I try to emphasise is that GPS is a tool and nothing more. How we use the tool is where the skill and training comes in. :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

As with all walks of life there are the “Traditionalist”, the “Modernist” and the “Technophile”. :soapbox:

The “Traditionalist” is an important part of the “community” and keeps the old ways alive. They have the skills and knowledge that need to be passed on or it will be lost and we will be worse off with out it. :ekt:

The “Technophile” wants every thing that is new. They will get every gadget that is made mistakenly thinking it will give him the advantage over the “Traditionalist”. :stupid:

The “Modernist” I like to think comes in between. He wants to learn and use the old ways but will use some new ones as well. He just tries to balance both. If we were all pure “Traditionalists” then we would still have flint knives rather than the North Star: we would have bear skins rather than Gore-Tex; we would wrap our kit in skins rather than the rucksack and worse still Imported Larger would not exist (and sorry but I for one can not get used to Bitter or Mild :yuck: ).

We all have our opinions, I believe there is a place for GPS but like many have said, like any other tool it should be used wisely. People are trained to use a compass; they should also seek training to use a GPS.

To throw another log on the fire, my watch has a digital compass built in but I still carry two compasses and the GPS when I go out. Am I scared of getting last or what?? :Crazy_071

[bambodoggy]

The “Modernist” I like to think comes in between. He wants to learn and use the old ways but will use some new ones as well. He just tries to balance both. If we were all pure “Traditionalists” then we would still have flint knives rather than the North Star: we would have bear skins rather than Gore-Tex; we would wrap our kit in skins rather than the rucksack and worse still Imported Larger would not exist

Can't argue with that buddy...my thoughts are the same entirely :biggthump


To throw another log on the fire, my watch has a digital compass built in but I still carry two compasses and the GPS when I go out. Am I scared of getting last or what?? :Crazy_071

Lol....I do have to admit to liking new shiny kit...but I use it as a novelty when I first get it, like the gps and hooped bivvi bag etc but then find I almost always go back to my traditional kit i.e map/compass and basha etc.

I have one of those casio mountaineering watches, has a digital compass, altimeter, barometer and thermometer on it as well as plotting functions and all the other normal casio features, alarm stopwatch timer etc....

Haven't worn the thing for about 5 years... only bought it about 6 years ago! :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:

[Stevie]

I have one of those casio mountaineering watches, has a digital compass, altimeter, barometer and thermometer on it as well as plotting functions and all the other normal casio features, alarm stopwatch timer etc....
:

:clap: Mine's not that bad, it only has the compass, time, alarm and stop watch. Yours must take up half your arm or did you have a separate ruck-sack for it :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:

[arctic hobo]

I agree with what you have said for following a bearing in fog. I too have used the “shouting method” on glaciers. We called the lead person the sacrificial goat because if he disappeared you knew you had found the edge. :o): But this answer appears to assume that you know what bearing you need to get to your destination. What if, as in the situation I described earlier, you do not know your current location and have no visual reference points with which to calculate it?

In Switzerland we still have National Service and navigation training is standard. Those of us who went in to the Air Force did so in greater detail. Although aircraft have inertial navigation systems basic ground navigation is also taught for what I think is called over here “Escape and Evade”. Although you have a rough idea where you are from you flight plan / target / egress course you don’t know exactly where you are until you fix your position. Until you are able to do so you do not rush around or head off on what was your old heading as it could lead you in to trouble rather than home. :oT:

Also Ordnance Survey Maps are a lot better than those you find abroad. :ekt: Like many of you, I have used maps with out any contour lines on and just show the very basic details such as towns, rivers and major roads. Here you have to rely upon your compass, your note book and your pedometer / step count but you do have the opportunity to triangulate your position and then choose an appropriate visual marker or way point as you call it for your bearing. Such is not possible in fog. :?:
:dedhorse: In my opinion, not knowing where you are is a scenario that should never arise. I accept that it could despite all efforts, but the chance of that happening coinciding with a fog that switched on like an electric light are about five million to one.
And if you've a very poor map, the answer is simple - don't go out. I accept that many foreign maps have much less detail; the great majority of my walking has been abroad.
That said, I'm not trying to get at you, I just think that traditional skills are and will always be the best. :-)

[bambodoggy]

:dedhorse: In my opinion, not knowing where you are is a scenario that should never arise. I accept that it could despite all efforts, but the chance of that happening coinciding with a fog that switched on like an electric light are about five million to one.
And if you've a very poor map, the answer is simple - don't go out. I accept that many foreign maps have much less detail; the great majority of my walking has been abroad.
That said, I'm not trying to get at you, I just think that traditional skills are and will always be the best. :-)

:rolmao: Dont't sit on the fence Chris....lol...you say what you think! :You_Rock_

[arctic hobo]

:oops: :o):

[nameless]

Hey
Well i dont have one but want one, i think your an idiot(no offence) to bring just a GPS due to electrical falures, the list is endless. Though i would like to get one which has a deatailled map of ireland! Can anyone point me towards a decent one? and what is the scale like though? sorry but i have never used one :(

[Greg]

If your map & compass skills are on the ball then generally there is no need for one, but they show there use in an emergency when you need to know your co-ordinates quickly for the emergency services or if your caught out in bad weather say a white out in winter.
I am perfectly happy with my map and compass skills but I do use mine every now and again to check my location as a reassuance basically when I do long distance walks, other than that it stays in my pocket ready and waiting until I really need it.
It will never replace my map & compass!

[Shewie]

You can`t beat digging up an old thread and kicking it off again .....


I personally have never used a gps although I`ve considered getting one a few times. I don`t think I could really justify the cost of one as it would hardly ever get used. I can see the advantages of them over traditional methods, but you don`t need to change the batteries in a map and compass and they will never go wrong either. I like using a map and compass now as it took me long enough to learn how to use them properly.



Rich

[BOD]

Better to input the data into your head where it shouldn't get lost!

I see lots of people look at their GPS screens and not their surroundings.

GPS has it uses but not as a replacement for for proper navigation.

Don't let dependable old skills die.

[nzgunnie]

They are a useful tool, but like any tool you need to know how to use it, and most importantly to understand it's limitations.

you cant expect it to be a magic bullet for solving all you navigation problems, and need to know how to assess the accuracy of the information you are getting from it.

[SimonM]

I use a GPS as an intro to navigation - Before you all shout, I work with Special Needs kids, and they need a confidence boost from time to time.

I download waypoints from "Country Walking" and let the kids take turns at "leading" the walk. It really is fool proof - the arrow points and that is where you go!

Obviously, I carry all the usual stuff (map, compass, FAK etc) and during the walk introduce them to the map. I advocate looking at the map, see what features are coming up in say the next 500m, then put the map away (low level walking in good conditions). This allows the young people to actually focus on what is around them.

The combination of technology and old skills usually grips the young people and leaves them wanting more. They are particularly impressed that I always know exactly where we are, despite not using the GPS (could it be that I pre-walk every route and have used some routes for several years? No that would be cheating!)

To sum up, GPS useful tool but must still know how to use more traditional nav techniques.

Simon

[Wayland]

They have a place and the place for mine is the bottom of my rucksack.

I do use one, they can be useful for finding a location in the middle of trackless moorland for example. For me these are usually things like archaeological features that can be hard to see even when you are standing on top of them.

I rarely use a compass when out and about, preferring to navigate by map and eye, but in my bergan a compass and gps with spare batteries are always there for bad conditions or emergencies.

[John Fenna]

The only time I have used GPS was on exped in Ghana, where the maps were about as much use as a photo of the dark side of Jupiter......
We made our own map so that other teams could find locations of rescources we located.
With decent maps and knowledge of how to use them GPS is an expensive luxury.
Without a basic knowledge of nav then GPS can lure you into places you cannot cope with - and then run out of battery/die on you, leaving you in trouble.
Carry (spend) less by knowing more?
Ain't got one, don't want one!
But then I am a paid up Luddite!

[irishlostboy]

i have never used a gps. to some they may be attractive, but to me, i want to go up a mountain to get away from gadgets. i spend all day, every day sitting in front of thousands of quids worth of a pc, frying my brain. thats enough for me. i know how to use a map and compass, and have had complete success using it for full on night navs in the lashing rain where all you can see is the glowy bits of your compass, and in instant white-outs (yes, it can come in in seconds. it is truly scary when that happens)
my uncle is a skipper, and loves gps. its kinda important when you are in charge of a ferry-load of people in the atlantic ocean it seems.

it seems the consensus here is, its a handy tool. take it or leave it, and it does not negate your actual navigation ability. sound advice if you ask me.

[Bogman10]

I find I use mine most in my truck, when I'm scouting new hunting areas ( marking Cut lines , Clearcuts Etc.) . After I decide where to hunt, I put it in my pocket as a back up to my Suunto compas and maps.
Also they show sunrise /sunset times, which is important when hunting.( Legal hunting time here in Alberta, Canada is 1/2 hr before sunrise to 1/2 hr after sunset.)

[h2o]

i dont have one but it seems to me in some locations deserts and featureless terrain they would be very handy to have.and as simon m said he uses them for people with special needs who maybe would struggle with tradition map and compass. plus its an extra fail safe if the compass is lost broken and if you are looking after a gruop of people you should be able to tell emergency services etc where you are in case of emergency i know this can be done from a map but having another opinion is always help ful being human or gps.Iwould probably use one myself if i could justify the finantial outlay but i dont think id get my moneys worth out of it.and ill always carry a map of the area im walking/canoeing in.I think the price of gps will come down over the next couple of years anyway as the price of satnav has.

[benp1]

i love em! they'e very useful, though perhaps not that much use in bushcraft (i never need to navigate anywhere)

i use them for hillwalking/geocaching/general navigation

[BushTucker]

I have a TomTom in the car and an Etrex for hiking and the likes. I think they are great additions to your kit

[John Fenna]

In my early days on the hill I never even used a compass - just relying on a good map and looking at the ground.
I was introduced to a compas on my ML intro and although I learned to use it and am very confident in my skill I was quicker on my nav section of the ML assesment (at night in thick snow) than those who had their noses stuck to the compass when it came to working out where I was and what lights we could see.
GPS would seem to take you even further from the land than a compass....
I am not saying don't use a compass - it is a life saver when you realy need it - nor am I saying the GPS is Satans tool - again it can have its uses - but eyes and a good map are my main nav tools. A compass is for detailed work, a GPS for quick detailed work - when they work.
I have gone out in terrain I know well (N Wales, Presceli Hills etc) and have deliberately done complicated routes in thick mist without taking map or compass out of my bag - just to see how good my "map memory" is good enough for the open hill it would seem, or N ridge Tryfan/Glyders/Devils Kitchen or even the hills between Aber and Idwal...
Avoiding relience on nav tools turns you on to the land!
What is wrong with getting lot anyway?:D

[Hoodoo]

I'm a big fan. My epiphany came when I was easily able to find my hunting treestand in the dark, while traveling through heavy cover. Most of the time I use a compass or simply nothing for navigation but in certain situations, I've found the gps excellent. It can also be great when you are driving in big country that is riddled with logging roads that are not on the map or you just don't have the map. My GPS will store topos for the entire lower 48 states here. If you travel multiple states on a trip, you are never without a topo map. Many times I have come to a the end of a T road wondering whether I need to turn right or left. I can stop, get out of the truck, get the map out (if I have one), shoot some bearings, and figure it out, or just keep the gps fired up and take a quick look. It's a tool, like anything else. One of my favorite uses of a GPS is to mark my fishings spots, especially my icefishing spots. Works a treat. :)

[Scots_Charles_River]

I presume you mean navigating in fog. Well as to following a bearing, you simply find it and walk, and of course check regularly to ensure you are on course.
Usually it's easy to tell where you're going in mountainous terrain, as you simply need to study the map carefully and you can tell which way you're going.

I hope you are not thinking that this is it and folk go out on your advice. A bearing only works if you know where you are when you take it ! And the compass has not been effected by anything.

I'm sorry but navigation, especially in cloud, is not as simple as you make it out to be, especially in winter on hills. A gps can be a lifesaver FACT.

Nick

[Scots_Charles_River]

Personally I've never liked 'em. They're not that detailed and they run out of batteries faster than you could ever replace them.

Not that detailed ? More accurate than the maps we use.

Run out of batteries ? Last a full winter day in scotland up Lochnagar -7-9hrs walking with plenty left. Garmin Etrex Cammo.

Nick

[Spindrift]

Navigating in the hills in mist can be confusing for anyone and if an error has been made a gps can be a great comfort in relocating your position quickly.
They can even be a lifesaver in some situations especially in places like the Cairngorms in winter where I have found navigating by map and compass can be difficult Especially when the compass is barely readable from snow/water on the baseplate, my glasses are freezing up and the map doesn't want to remain in my hand let alone stay still while I carefully try and take a bearing to the next diffuse snowy lump in the near distance!
They are a very useful aid and are always secondary to practiced map, compass and pilotage skills, but they can be very reassuring in a variety of situations IMHO.

Cheers Dave.

[Bogman10]

I'm a big fan. My epiphany came when I was easily able to find my hunting treestand in the dark, while traveling through heavy cover. Most of the time I use a compass or simply nothing for navigation but in certain situations, I've found the gps excellent. It can also be great when you are driving in big country that is riddled with logging roads that are not on the map or you just don't have the map. My GPS will store topos for the entire lower 48 states here. If you travel multiple states on a trip, you are never without a topo map. Many times I have come to a the end of a T road wondering whether I need to turn right or left. I can stop, get out of the truck, get the map out (if I have one), shoot some bearings, and figure it out, or just keep the gps fired up and take a quick look. It's a tool, like anything else. One of my favorite uses of a GPS is to mark my fishings spots, especially my icefishing spots. Works a treat. :)

Finding deer stands or underwater points again, when fishing is way easy. Recently I was checking out an area full of Logging roads and Gas line roads very confussing area, the gps got me out fast and helped me find some "good" spots later.:) :)

[Cairodel]

In areas where the terrain is very flat and closed in with few reference points, or on a desert, a GPS could be a life saving back-up to solid navigation skills. The GPS will never be foolproof as long as you are foolish enough to not learn basic navigation. Mac

I use GPS to determine my position, then use a map and compass to plot direction of
travel. As said elsewhere, in many areas of the desert, there is very little topography to
take a "fix" on, and a lot of the maps are blank pieces of paper with gridlines and place
names, with PERHAPS the odd escarpment.
I use a Garmin E-trex Legend, and a Garmin 1200.
This part of the world still has inaccuracies built into the satellite coding, which would
have an effect on artillery or other types of targetting at some distance, for obvious
reasons, but not the traveller....

[Templar]

Hi all,

I have one they are a great bit of kit, but will never replace a good compass and map...
I use mine as a Check-Nav aid when I have my stops out on hikes, but I navigate by map, compass and pacing...

Also they are very handy in an emergency to mark the location of an injury victim if you need to go for help or call in SAR... Ten fig grids are a pain to workout with some protractor Romers out there... and that is how accurate you need to be for a land search team to find you in thick undergrowth if the victim is out cold...

Have one, use it, like it, never rely on it....

Cheers,

Karl

[Rob84]

slightly OT

In the UK are the high-sensitivity, WAAS-enabled Garmin GPS receivers more accurate than those without. or is it just in the USA ?


Thanks

[soloman]

Like all technology used correctly they could save your life but rely on them by themselves at your perril.
Ill bet alot of people are using the ones with a compass as their sole nav tool.
I once spent a few interesting hours on the cairngorm plateau walking round in a big circle in a white out after being out voted on our decent route.
No gps and a missplaced compass.
what made it worse was that it was christmas eve at about 4 oclock,i was only 5 hours late getting home.
In the word of Billy connolly "manhole cover ten bob bit"
Soloman.
I aint ever been lost just mighty confused fo a week or two.

[Scots_Charles_River]

slightly OT

In the UK are the high-sensitivity, WAAS-enabled Garmin GPS receivers more accurate than those without. or is it just in the USA ?



WAAS and Diff. GPS is here. There is a Forth Estuary Diff GPS signal. I had 6 Diff gps signals on a Glenoce hill two weeks ago with my Garmin Etrex Cammo.

[Rob84]

WAAS and Diff. GPS is here. There is a Forth Estuary Diff GPS signal. I ahd 6 Diff gps signals on a Glenoce hill two weeks ago with my Garmin Etrex Cammo.


:You_Rock_

[Greg]

A GPS will only work accurately while it is upto date, I have one that I bought a few years back (Its a Magellan) I turned it on in my garden a few months ago I let it boot up and it started recieving info from about 5 satellites. I looked at the co-ordinates only to find out that they were miles out, literally. I phoned Magellan and there techs told me that my gps was out of calibration which caused the faulty readings.
What I'm trying to say is technology can fail even when it is apparently working properly.
They also told me that sometimes satellites on the gps circuit up in orbit are sometimes re-assigned or shutdown for maintenance which can have an effect on your recieving capabilities!
The Mark One eyeball and good orienteering skills and upto date maps are all you really need. After all man has been navigating for over a millenia without them! The're a military concept for pin point bombing of targets they are not necessary for normal navigation.
A good backup for emergency situations is all I would use them for as long as I was 100% happy that it was working properly. Especially with what I found with mine, I only thank the gods that I was in my garden and not in the middle no-where!

[Bernie Garland]

to be honest i don't like them, as they take away your navigation and map reading skills,just another sign of the times, another big brother with you

[gorilla]

for multi-drop delivery work round the NW i would literally be lost without it! have never taken it out into the bungle-bungles though - will have to try it (tomtom one by the way)

[Greg]

This pretty much sums up GPS systems good and bad points:

http://outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=75

Its a good read.

[Scots_Charles_River]

to be honest i don't like them, as they take away your navigation and map reading skills,just another sign of the times, another big brother with you

So why don't you bin your map and compass and your sextant while your at it ?

Nick

[Scots_Charles_River]

An interesting GPS application.

http://www.roydennis.org/Younger%20chick%20osprey%20mig ration%202007.htm

[woodstock]

GPS units are very handy bits of kits but they all rely on some sort of energy source and can go wrong or power down just when you need it, I always have backups, compass and personal navigational skills no batteries required:D

[crazyclimber]

IMO GPSs can be brilliant - an accurate fairly reliable way of navigating, I like the extra safety factor it gives me. They have their downsides though, so if they're being used as the primary means of navigation a map and compass is also a must. Batteries run out, electronics fail, and another problem I've come up against is the military jamming GPS signals. Working fine one minute, the next minute it showed me as being sat in the South Atlantic just off Ghana as jamming started and my GPS reset to 0 deg N/S, 0 deg E/W.
My preferred method is to use a map and compass most of the time, just pulling the GPS out once in a while to confirm my position if I'm going on dead reckoning. Therefore I use a fairly simple GPS (the upside is a generally longer batery life) with no installed maps. If I'm expecting nav to be particularly difficult though I will put in a series of waypoints I've marked on the map so I can literally GPS my way out, checking that with the compass not the other way round. Cairngorm plateau in winter is the classic there.
If anyone's interested F&T are selling a eTrex for £50 at the moment on sale, http://www.fieldandtrek.com/aff/AA/product-Garmin-eTrex-H-GPS-25929.htm no connection etc looks a bargain if you use them like me though. I'm tempted to get one as a spare!

[Martyn]

slightly OT

In the UK are the high-sensitivity, WAAS-enabled Garmin GPS receivers more accurate than those without. or is it just in the USA ?


Thanks

WAAS makes no difference in Europe, it's a USA only thing. The WAAS satellite is in a geostationary orbit over the USA and augments the satellites visible from there. The European equivalent is EGNOS. Both systems are essentially the same and do the same thing, the good news for us though, is that the EGNOS system employs some clever trickery which makes the fix more precise than WAAS. So basically we get better accuracy using EGNOS that the USA gets using WAAS.

The other bonus is that the Russians have just deregulated their system (GLONASS) for free global civillian use, which will probably be coming into use in the next few years. The Russians and Americans are in discussions about switching the signal of the GLONASS system over to a signal that is interoperable with the American GPS system, which will effectively double the number of satellites available and significantly improve GPS accuracy.

[Martyn]

A gps can be a lifesaver FACT.

Nick

Absolutely.

I think the worry here is that out of some kind of inverse bushcraft snobbery, bushcrafters will turn their noses up at them, preferring instead to rely on their ability to read the moss on trees or something.

That's all well and good, but a GPS can save your ass when you cant tell your Climacium from your Bryophyta. ...and people do get it wrong. History has shown over and over, that even the most proficient navigators can and do get lost.

Ther question isn't whether or not a gps is a good bit of bushcraft kit, but whether or not a gps is a good bit of navigational kit and the answer is yes it is. Unequivocally.

I think Doc summed it up well....


They are very very good if you use them correctly, and very, very bad if you don't.

Their best use is for confirming that your estimated position (based on traditional map and compass skills/dead reckoning) is correct. This can help hone your skills further. They are also handy as a clock, speedometer, record of distance, sunset/sunrise calculator, and for finding the car again when parked at festivals, etc.

Reliance on them is bad, almost as bad as shunning them through an over-estimation of your own ability.

So to the 18 people who said "I don't have one and I don't want one!" ...I'd say the next time you go off into the hills, think twice before turning down the offer of a GPS, cos you might just be heading for a Darwin award. ;)

[Martyn]

Here's a couple of pics of mine, a Garmin GPSmap278 for in me Landy and a Garmin GPSmap 60cs for in me bag...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/both.jpg

Screenies...

topographic maps....

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab005.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab004.jpg


Coastal Charts...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab13.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab11.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab12.jpg

Street navigation...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab007.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/grab006.jpg

Oh and this is particularly cool. It's the conning tower of the USA's latest fast attack nuclear submarine with a GPSmap 278 stuck to the spray shield...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/usstexas.jpg

;)

[crazyclimber]

Haha, what a pic!!
I guess someone's also mentioned Galileo - which may or may not be with us by their planned switch-on date of 2013

[Scots_Charles_River]

Oh and this is particularly cool. It's the conning tower of the USA's latest fast attack nuclear submarine with a GPSmap 278 stuck to the spray shield...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i273/Martyn_s30v/gpsmap278/usstexas.jpg

;)

It's a cool pic. Under military standing orders or something they probably have to have a 'visual lookout' whenever on the surface. Marks can move when navigating into port etc.

The have top secret gyroscope navigation as well.

Nick

[Rebel]

Ray Mears uses a GPS so they must be good. ;) :D

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

I'm not sure why so many resist GPS. When you think about it good and accurate land maps are something that are created by advanced civilisations with lots of technical gear, they're not exactly primitive. GPS is another manufactured technical aid we can use to help us while it exists and we can use it just about anywhere in the world.

When I was out in the third world the maps were pretty bad (if they could be found at all) and most of the better ones had been made by colonialists or foreign companies. Often what could be found was out of date or only covered specific areas. I mention this because it proves the point that only wealthy nations with skilled technicians are able to produce maps with the detail and accuracy of something like OS.

I think traditional skills are good and useful but if you want to be really traditional then chuck out the compass and map and do it the way primitive tribes do.

[andywinkk]

If i cant see the car then ive gone to far, There no use to me

[mrstorey]

I've got a Garmin Geko 201. I don't use it to navigate, really (although it has come in handy) but I use it to to 'record' my route as I go, then I can download the tracklog into my PC digital mapping software when I get home, and see where I ACTUALLY went. It's fun, and also a nice momento of my walks. Damn accurate too - I remember going for a pee stop on Sarn Helen once, and the tracklog faithfully shows me leaving the path, stopping for 30 seconds, then going back on the path and continuing :-)

Oh, and because they eat power like stink, I use rechargeable batteries. It's better for the planet, and costs me less in the long run.

BTW, sounds obvious, but not everyone knows this. If your GPS doesn't have a clear 'line of sight' to the sky (rucksack, pocket, etc), it absolutely chews through batteries. So leave it clipped to the top of your bag or something if you want it to still be receiving after lunch.

[spamel]

My TonTom screamed at me the other day as I was wiothin 1 km of an ROC Post. Out came the torch and camera, and down into the bowels of the earth I went! they are pretty cool, so a GPS aid can be good as it tells you when you are near interesting things!

[crazyclimber]

My TonTom screamed at me the other day as I was wiothin 1 km of an ROC Post. Out came the torch and camera, and down into the bowels of the earth I went! they are pretty cool, so a GPS aid can be good as it tells you when you are near interesting things!

You have a database of them in your tomtom then? Are they on there as standard or is that something you've added?
That kinda thing's always interested me too

[widu13]

Why on earth would we use anything other than our feet for travelling? Far more reliable than vehiclular transport?...because like vehicular transport GPS is a useful tool. I rely on units for navigation and even my mobile phone has OS Maps on it. Batteries in constant use last 24 hrs plus. IMHO I can read maps, take brearings, triangulate etc like a demon (in mils and degrees), but why if I don't have to? Dont bother giving anything other than grids to any emergency services if you need to give them your location, as there are so many standards of fixing postitions it's unreal. GPS isn't essential but VERY useful.

[Rebel]

I'd like to mention the GPS is also fun. I like to take GPS navigating because it adds to my enjoyment. I like maps too. It's all good.

[spamel]

You have a database of them in your tomtom then? Are they on there as standard or is that something you've added?
That kinda thing's always interested me too

Added later. That was fun, figuring out how to do that! I've only done one post so far, but there are many more that are in my sights, I'm thinking of visiting another and a HAA site on the same day. There are loads of them and it is quite interesting. One guy went down an ROC post and there are two waterproof issued rain jackets from eons back still hanging up! There is loads of kit in some of them, which is quite interesting to see. If anybody goes, try to stick to the same ethics that we use with bushcraft and don't take anything out of the Post.

[crazyclimber]

Added later. That was fun, figuring out how to do that! I've only done one post so far, but there are many more that are in my sights, I'm thinking of visiting another and a HAA site on the same day. There are loads of them and it is quite interesting. One guy went down an ROC post and there are two waterproof issued rain jackets from eons back still hanging up! There is loads of kit in some of them, which is quite interesting to see. If anybody goes, try to stick to the same ethics that we use with bushcraft and don't take anything out of the Post.

Cool, until I googled them earlier I never realised there were so many of them about. Task for an empty day!
One of the most interesting sites I've visited is Scotland's secret bunker near Anstruther. For anyone interested in cold war history I'd definitely recommend a visit. Slightly different in scale to the ROC posts ;)

[Carbuncle]

I'm a compass user, but I do get slightly irked by some of the nonsense that gets thrown about re. GPS.

The straw man that always gets thrown up is that it's Map + Compass vs GPS. With the exception of a few relatively recent units most GPS recievers don't give much in the way of mapping. I have the garmin vista hcx with the UK topo maps and the maps are only good for a little situational awareness. The reality is the debate should be map+compass vs map+gps. And it's not really that complicated a debate - a GPS tells you where you are and a compass tells you where you're pointing, and from each you can extrapolate the other, more or less. Both have their limitations - pricipally revolving around visibility, either of landmarks or the sky. And both have their reliability issues, and though compasses clearly have the advantage here, they're not foolproof. Functionally, GPS recievers are the winners though, being able to backtrack on your breadcrumb can be very handy, and if either fails, you'll have a better chance guessing direction.

Like I say, I use a map and compass, mainly because it's more pleasurable, and connects you with your surrounding landmarks. But I don't understand why people feel the need to create a caricature of GPS users, IF someone decides to wander off the beaten track without a paper map, that's a separate issue. Anyway, the best navigation tool is the ability to relate map to terrain, something two decades of practice has only left me mediocre at best, unfortunately ;-)

[jonajuna]

i use memorymap on my HTC touchHD winmo phone

i get OS mapping with my gps postition plotted ontop, plus all the normal gps stuff including compass through BeeLineGPS running in background, plus 3g interwebbing and video/phone calls

oh and if i want, i can sit and play solitaire :P

cant do any of that with a map and compass! (which i carry in case of my phone failing or getting bust)

[bearbait]

GPS units are very useful for carrying out habitat and species surveys: you can concentrate on the purpose of the survey rather than painstaking nav.

They are also very useful, and are used by organisations such as mapaction.org, for rapid surveys when producing or updating/revising maps for Relief Organisations in a disaster area where navigational landmarks may no longer be visible or even be there, e.g. N'orlins after Katrina, Thailand and other locations in the Indian Ocean after the Tsunami, the Haiti 'quake and so on. And when the whole topography changes such as Mount St. Helens in the Pacific Northwest of the U.S.

See mapaction.org's website for some great info on how cartography plays a massive role in Disaster Management and Relief.

Despite the undoubted and accurate assistance a GPS unit provides you with, you still need a good grounding in navigational principles: magnetic variation (declination) and deviation, map scales and datums, etc. and be able to read a map!

I have a Garmin GPS60CSX and generally use it only for the stats when I do (what I call) arduous hikes, just so I can feel good about how much I ache afterwards! I also use it if I'm hiking somewhere where I have no map or a poor map - and then just as a backup: I still make notes or leave markers on the trail so I can backtrack. (And I carry a spare set of batteries.)

Incidentally I have rarely lost the signal on my unit, even in deep woods and valleys. I have it on the hip belt of my pack. If you lose the signal with your units, try mounting the unit higher on your pack, or use an external antenna clipped to your cap, or on a stick poking out of your pack.

[*Big Beast*]

one of the great benefits to me of GPS is when you combine it with Memory Map and plot your route then the GPS keeps you on track, i use it mainly for green laning and it does save hours by not getting lost and missing turn offs

[jonnno]

That saved me alot of time :)

No-one with a GPS would ever think of venturing out with it alone but that's the accusation that always gets levelled. The question is what can you do if you end up with no map/compass or GPS. We were hiking a few weeks back and the map dropped into a river and it was only luck that we got it back. Do you have skills that can get you out of a tricky situation with absolutely no modern navigational aids should be the question.

On a side note, modern GPS with high sensitivity receivers are swift to lock and accurate and have a battery life (in my experience) of 12+ hours with moderate use. I use them to track where I've been as well as how long it will take to get where I'm going and being able to download the route to the PC when I get home is awesome - I keep them all!

Also, they enable us to to night hikes where visibility is so low that you wouldn't be overly safe with only a map and compass.


I'm a compass user, but I do get slightly irked by some of the nonsense that gets thrown about re. GPS.

The straw man that always gets thrown up is that it's Map + Compass vs GPS. With the exception of a few relatively recent units most GPS recievers don't give much in the way of mapping. I have the garmin vista hcx with the UK topo maps and the maps are only good for a little situational awareness. The reality is the debate should be map+compass vs map+gps. And it's not really that complicated a debate - a GPS tells you where you are and a compass tells you where you're pointing, and from each you can extrapolate the other, more or less. Both have their limitations - pricipally revolving around visibility, either of landmarks or the sky. And both have their reliability issues, and though compasses clearly have the advantage here, they're not foolproof. Functionally, GPS recievers are the winners though, being able to backtrack on your breadcrumb can be very handy, and if either fails, you'll have a better chance guessing direction.

Like I say, I use a map and compass, mainly because it's more pleasurable, and connects you with your surrounding landmarks. But I don't understand why people feel the need to create a caricature of GPS users, IF someone decides to wander off the beaten track without a paper map, that's a separate issue. Anyway, the best navigation tool is the ability to relate map to terrain, something two decades of practice has only left me mediocre at best, unfortunately ;-)

[mitch66]

hi, i bought a gps for a bit of fun something's elce to play with, it's a bit flat here in norfolk. but found it very intresting bought a map & compass and the with the aid of the gps found out how to use the map and compass. i think its better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have it. this tread is like the .177 or .22 air gun cal debate. **** get both and have fun, i find they both complement each other. have fun carl

[mcniac]

i have a GPS in my phone (nokia 5800) and is usefull specially in big citys (for me) also has a really nice app to track my training while running crosstrail or in the city :)

anyway, i never use it to actually navigate in the woods, localwoods are too well known, and in others not really useful since the phone cant work gps for more that a few hours before running out of battery

Esteban

[susi]

I find it a useful tool for measuring how far we've walked through forest, or other places where it is cross-country and you make your own path.
My main concern though, is that the sun is entering a more active phase. This could result in two things: 1. solar flashes which can totally blank out the signal for periods of hours, and 2. general increased activity in the ionosphere, which hinders the time stamp signal and thus reduces accuracy.

[_mark_]

I was looking at a Satmap Active 10 until I saw the price with maps! Doesn't do much more than a phone with memory map.

I have a thing for paper maps anyway, I think they are beautiful things.

A GPS I could happily leave behind, a compass, never! I even have a tiny one on on a chain round my neck.

[Harley]

GPS (and mobile phones) are mandatory items for many ultra-distance events now. Whilst this can often upset the purists, the organisers consider that if the technology is accessible/cheap and greatly improves the safety of entrants then it is entirely reasonable to insist on it being carried.

This is in contrast to when GPS units were actually forbidden in some events, such that it often led to disqualification if a team were observed using one!

[rancid badger]

I think they're the best thing since sliced turnip me.

Why, just last Thursday, I was able to establish that myself and a mate managed to paddle my new NC SP3 Prospector, at no less than 9.2 kmh heading down Ullswater!

to be honest and in all seriousness; these days, now that I'm venturing further afield with my canoe, I find it much easier and quicker, to simply check the gizmo for a grid reference then check it on the map, than fanny about trying to take bearings to plot my position.

I spent too many years taking bearings then wondering if I'd got it right, even when I knew it was correct.
So yes they're excellent pieces of kit.

I think relying on one, without sound map & compass skills however, is foolhardy.:nono:
R.B.

[Shambling Shaman]

I have a Garmin Etrex, got it for geocaching but use it quite often now for general navigation. I do back it up with a compass, especially amongst trees where it can get confused about direction.

Dave

Lol Ditto, Its important to keep your map and compass work up, also just map work with out compass, If you can get out to the hills try nav' with an AtoZ in your local town orientating the map and pacing out distences.

[Mojoracinguk]

I use a Phone (are you counting these?)
The sony erricson c702 has a tracking system to show all the usual stuff (distance/speed/gridreference) It does me proud when running in the country side or through woods....google maps is loaded on too so sattellite images can be used to help with navagation...Plus it's a phone so you can call in back up!

[pteron]

I grew up navigating with compass and Ordnance Survey maps. I love maps. Love 'em.

But if your navigation is to get you from point A to point B, then GPS is a god send. Especially on a boat where one wave looks like any other.

I'm learning celestial nav with my sextant but I won't kid myself that it's anything other than a backup, nor will I be doubting the GPS position if the two differ. The best backup to a GPS is another GPS! I have 3 - including one that lives in my ditch kit.

People talk about GPS failure and report it on fora, but the reason it gets reported is because it is so infrequent - there are millions of GPS units happily guiding their owners reliably every second of the day. Plus it will only get more reliable as the receivers improve in sensitivity, have multiple satellite systems to look at etc. The US consider GPS to be reliable enough to land airliners. Good enough for me.

[kiltedpict]

I happily used ViewRanger on my last Nokia- reassured us as we did a night walk (low level) in the Cairngorms (long story). Now I have the iPhone, there are two main issues- needs a phone signal to download the map tiles, otherwise you have a dot on a screen, and the awful battery life. I have come into a little money recently and decided to splash out on a SatMap Active 10 (good deal on evilbay) and used it yesterday on a easy to follow walk to gauge it's usefulness and reliability- Well impressed. Yes, I like a map and compass (and would not go out without them in the pack), but I also love gadgets, and although expensive, it works well and extremely accurate in my limited experience.

Just my tuppence worth..

KP

[sharp88]

Whats the limitation of newer units? Garmin seem to do one with an electronic compass, higher definition screen and a camera (which seems a bit plain silly to me). Can you view and browse 1:25 maps in OS style? Can you set multiple markers for areas of interest? What is the battery life like?

[Gaoler]

I learned to map read with ordnance survey maps and compass in the cubs and scouts.

Never forgot what I learned and as a result I have never been lost. Ever!

Works for me and I haven't seen anything to make me change my mind so far.(and i Really love gadgets too)

[Mr Adoby]

Whats the limitation of newer units? Garmin seem to do one with an electronic compass, higher definition screen and a camera (which seems a bit plain silly to me). Can you view and browse 1:25 maps in OS style? Can you set multiple markers for areas of interest? What is the battery life like?

I got the Garmin Oregon 550t with 1:50 000 topo maps of southern Sweden. You can buy 1:20 000 maps as well. I don't know what is available in UK. It has a 3d compass, so it is reliable even if not held absolutely level. Also a camera, very nice to take geotagged pix that you can browse using google earth. Every picture you take becomes a marker for that spot, so you can actually navigate using the pictures for reference. If you see something nice or interesting, take a picture. Later you just browse to that picture and can view where it was taken. Another key press and you start navigating to that spot. You can mark spots without taking pics, but that is no fun... The pics are OK in good conditions (daylight outdoors) but not by a far way as good as with a "real" camera. Still great fun!

The GPS is really nice for geocaching and on a bike. The display is bit hard to read in the sun, even if you crank up the light level.

Edit: Just got one of my pics i took yesterday selected by google maps. :) Had one selected previously, but that was manually geotagged. Here are some sample pictures taken with the GPS: (Click to see full resolution unedited original pic.)


http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703tDSC00031.JPG (http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703DSC00031.JPG) http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703tDSC00032.JPG (http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703DSC00032.JPG) http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703tDSC00034.JPG (http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703DSC00034.JPG) http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703tDSC00035.JPG (http://upload.snelhest.org/images/100703DSC00035.JPG)


The specs for the GPS say 16 hours run time. But if you crank up the light and increase the time before powersave starts and use the camera now and then, it is more like 8 hours normal use. Two rechargable AA-batteries, so no problem carrying extras. If you turn it off and only take a few positions a day, or in emergencies, it should last for weeks.

I bought a holder for the handlebar on my bike. Best bike computer I've ever had. (And most expensive...)

But I still carry a normal map and compass. Much better for a better overview and long distance navigation.

I also considered a camera with a built in gps...

[Graham_S]

In my view, GPS is a handy tool, but it doesn't replace needing to know how to navigate.
If you're out in the hills, you should have a map and compass, and know how to use them.
Batteries die, signals get lost.

[Laurentius]

Not enough options there, they might be an essential piece of kit, if only they could find a satellite fix when you really need one :(

When I upgraded my mobile phone I got one with GPS and I am not at all impressed, on that basis I would not go forking out for any of this garmin kit or whatever.

[rik_uk3]

Not enough options there, they might be an essential piece of kit, if only they could find a satellite fix when you really need one :(

When I upgraded my mobile phone I got one with GPS and I am not at all impressed, on that basis I would not go forking out for any of this garmin kit or whatever.

I would suggest that your phone is not as good as typical GPS receivers and you don't dismiss them out of hand.

[Mr Adoby]

Not enough options there, they might be an essential piece of kit, if only they could find a satellite fix when you really need one :(


Never had any problems with getting a satelite fix when I am outdoors. Could perhaps be a problem in dense woods. But I haven't noticed it yet.

[Chasseur]

Utterly useless under dense or even partial canopy. There is a tendency to be overreliant on gadgets and gizmos, at the expense of real knowledge and understanding of basic navigation principles. A GPS is a valuable tool to reconcile your existing superb map, compass and ready reckoning skills, but not as a primary navigation system on its own. A GPS is useful to confirm your position as reckoned using traditional methods. That way you will know exactly how lost you are +/- 10m :)

[Opal]

I needed a new toy.

[forrestdweller]

judging from my experience with car-mounted versions: NO THANKS!!! the bl**#@ thing wanted to sent me-driving a ute with 6m-trailer through underground parking areas, straight through petrol stations, through walls, in circles around a parking area... do i need to go on? gladly i had a street directory and some local knowledge... .also the system is owned by the military which can change position of satellites and not all handheld receivers show you this; +limited reception in dense forests or in narrow gorges. and what if you run out of battery power on a long trip???

[Mr Adoby]

It is easy to imagine what might go wrong with a GPS. But compass and map is not foolproof either. It is possible to crush a compass, and a map may get wet or even outdated. If it is dark the map is hard to read, and once a compss of mine was stored near a magnet, and got reversed.

That said, on any outdoor trip to unknown land, I mainly use map and compass. But I still bring my GPS. It is a great tool.

Even if I know how to rub two sticks together to make fire, I still bring a firesteel and matches.

And judging from the voting results in this thread, it seems most agree.

[Opal]

Can someone tell me the exact cable to use for downloading waypoints with the Garmin Etrex h and a laptop?

[ashes1627]

I had on conversation with a friend of mine who wanted to buy some fancy GPS system. I use an OS map and a compass, and the compass is optional. Here where we are (North Norfolk) there isn't much need for anything but a map and a pair of eyes. If I was stuck in bad weather, I would rather set up camp than try and move and stray from where I should be. As long as I tell someone where I am going, they should be able to find me by looking in the area of my route. If I try and move and stray away from my route, thats when I would have a problem.

[leealanr]

GPS in the Deserts of Jordan are extremely useful. However it is also essential to know where you are on the map.

It is just too easy to rely on electronic technology and when that goes down you haven't a clue where you are, and you do not want to stray across any of its borders with its neighbours without meaning to!

Alan L.

[ArkAngel]

I have a Garmin Oregon 550 that i bought cheaply from a friend who works for Garmin, along with the full UK mapping at 1:50 000. It's an utterly fantastic piece of kit. No way would i have had one of i had to pay full price for it (over £600 including the mapping card) but i wouldn't be without it when i'm out and about.

I still have a compass and map in the bottom of my rucksack as a backup but one set of batteries will easily last all day (even in the cold) and i quite often just have a couple of spare sets in a battery box.

[Harvestman]

One thing that a GPS will do that a map can't is if you are lost, it will tell you where you are, and that is mainly what I use it for when driving back roads in the car. I also find them useful when walking for telling you when you reach a turning that may not be obvious on the ground. It prevents missed turns.

On the whole though, I don't use mine much, although it usually comes with me.

[Tiger Eyes]

I have a GPS In my PPC I have memory map loaded onto it (same as ordanace survey maps) this allows me to see where I am exactly on an ordanace survey map. I don't use it constantly but if I'm unsure of exactly where I am or the footpath signs arn't accurate I can use it to pinpoint my position. It is brilliant to use with the children. It is invaluable when canoeing too, I can tell accurately how far I have travelled and what speed and I can save my routes for future reference. All that said I would NEVER advise anyone to reley soley on a GPS unit, always have a map and compass, they will work in all weathers and don't need batteries.
If I wasn't a geacacher I probably wouldn't have ever tried one!!!

[MSkiba]

Where can I buy an accurate map for my (or other) area's ? As in the physical map not a software map ?

[WeThePeoplexfbm]

i dont trust them, i like maps ^^ just feeling better to use plus maps are lot cheapper ^^

[rik_uk3]

Where can I buy an accurate map for my (or other) area's ? As in the physical map not a software map ?

http://leisure.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/products/paper-maps/paper-maps-ordnance-survey-great-britain?_s_ref=PdPm75f8S&kw=%22OS%20maps%22&creative=7180593180&gclid=CI7lxeXyr6YCFQJO4QodyUqr Zw

[santaman2000]

I can see why they aren't as popular there as they are here. OMG 600 pounds!!! They're range from $150 to $250 here. I think at the current exchange rate that's about 100-180 pounds.

[santaman2000]

Depends on what you want to do. I expect most people will never be in deep wilderness where they need either. Usually if you get lost it's best to shelter in place and wait for rescue as someone already suggested. No matter whether you have a GPS or a map and compass the real test is going to be your knowledge and skill with that particular piece of equipment. That brings us back to why we're all here anyway; TO HAVE FUN LEARNING NEW SKILLS!!!!! If you can afford it then by all means get both, learn both and ENJOY!

[Col_M]

I tend to use them for route tracking and looking at your route on a computer, they're also handy to have for emergencies. I can navigate without one though so I'm indifferent to using them for navigating, it's a handy tool to have either way.

[greensurfingbear]

I like my gps, got the basic etrex, I only really upload my days route onto my laptop when I get home. I usually turn it on at start of walk and leave it in top pouch of my pack. Can't remember the last time I actually used it for figuring out where I was.

[santaman2000]

FYI, the error that the US military originally put into all civilian GPS units has been removed, so they're all now the same accuracy :biggthump

They're sorta the same. If you're near a military base that error still shows up.

[santaman2000]

i dont trust them, i like maps ^^ just feeling better to use plus maps are lot cheapper ^^

Depends on where you are. We still have areas of the US where maps haven't been revised since the 1970s and the responsible agency (US Geological Survey) hes announced they're not going to revise paper maps anymore. They're going completely digital here. Hopefully paper maps can be printed on demand from the digital record but unless you have access to a very big printer, the scale is going to be suspect. Maybe we'll still be able to buy the DMA (defense Mapping Agency) maps. They have mostly the same topo symbols but they're in military 100 metre grid instead of the civilian "section" lines from the Homestead Act. Also their elevation and hydroscopic depths are give in metric instead of feet. I like both, just hope I can keep getting accurate ones.

[santaman2000]

Depends on where you are. We still have areas of the US where maps haven't been revised since the 1970s and the responsible agency (US Geological Survey) hes announced they're not going to revise paper maps anymore. They're going completely digital here. Hopefully paper maps can be printed on demand from the digital record but unless you have access to a very big printer, the scale is going to be suspect. Maybe we'll still be able to buy the DMA (defense Mapping Agency) maps. They have mostly the same topo symbols but they're in military 100 metre grid instead of the civilian "section" lines from the Homestead Act. Also their elevation and hydroscopic depths are give in metric instead of feet. I like both, just hope I can keep getting accurate ones.

Sorry, I meant 1000 metre grid not 100.

[santaman2000]

You are right AH, they have. Still strikes me as funny that the US troops still get lost with it, I'd hate to think what they are like with maps :D

You ain't never been lost til you've been lost at mach 3!

[santaman2000]

Just like a computor, "garbage in=garbage out!"

[santaman2000]

Mostly agree with you but there are a few exceptions below.


I believe GPS to be an excellent tool enabling an unskilled person, who has taken a couple of hours to get to grips with it, to navigate in unknown terrain with little to no assistance.

And this is where the problem lies, untrained people out in a possibly hazardous enviornment. Just imagine the possible outcomes:

Ooops, didn't put fresh batteries in before I left - Result, totally lost.

REPLY=Oops, didn't keep my metal kit far enough away from my compass - result, totally lost


Oops, I've just dropped the damned thing and the screen is totally knackered -Result, an unscheduled night out in the woods.

REPLY=Oops, just dropped my compass over the cliff - result Oh Sh**


And besides from relying on it and getting lazy with our core map reading skills, it takes some of the enjoyment away from the walk. Constantly looking down at a screen instead of the panoramic view in front of you whilst taking a bearing is not my idea of fun,

REPLY=Learning new skills with new gadgets can (and should be) part of the fun; after all our ancestors thought real navigation was by the stars and only a fool needed that newfangled compass.


and waiting for a satellite fix when you could have got a map out and done the job just as quickly

REPLY=If maps of your area exist; accurate ones don't exist for some of the areas some of us go and also the closer you get to the Arctic regions, the less accurate a compass is.


seems like a good way of holding yourself up. Maybe I should get my brew kit out at the same time!

I spoke to a guy in Currys when I bought my PDA who said they were great because you can put a GPS on them and you have all your navigational needs. Wrong attitude matey.

I do think GPS has a place in bushcraft and all outdoor pursuits, and I own a Garmin 12 which is still in a brand new condition (possibly due to me not relying on it), but people should consider that if they own a GPS but not a map of the area and a compass, then they shouldn't be going further than the local shops.

Again, if you're bushcrafting in areas where accurate maps are available (and for that matter where there are local shops) then you might consider if you're truly bushcrafting are just having a Sunday romp.

[Magentus]

While I can see the benefits for wilderness situations etc, my big problem with them is the de-skilling aspect - people who have them in their cars and follow them blindly rather than learning to navigate properly. I bet there will be a huge proportion of the younger generation who grow up unable to read maps.

[santaman2000]

:dedhorse: In my opinion, not knowing where you are is a scenario that should never arise. I accept that it could despite all efforts, but the chance of that happening coinciding with a fog that switched on like an electric light are about five million to one.
And if you've a very poor map, the answer is simple - don't go out. I accept that many foreign maps have much less detail; the great majority of my walking has been abroad.
That said, I'm not trying to get at you, I just think that traditional skills are and will always be the best. :-)

The very reason we go out is to explore UNMAPPED areas. That's the definition of a true explorer.

[santaman2000]

I find it a useful tool for measuring how far we've walked through forest, or other places where it is cross-country and you make your own path.
My main concern though, is that the sun is entering a more active phase. This could result in two things: 1. solar flashes which can totally blank out the signal for periods of hours, and 2. general increased activity in the ionosphere, which hinders the time stamp signal and thus reduces accuracy.

Let me try this again, the computor just booted me. Undoubtedly due to that solar activity. LOL. No, seriously I hope they have compensated for that because ALL our world transportation now depends on GPS. Merchant shipping, private ships/yachts as well as naval ships because the L.O.R.A.N. stations have been abandoned. Likewise with commercial airlines and private/general aviation as well as military aircraft because likewise the Tach.A.N. stations have been abandoned. Dead reckoning really ain't that accurate at over 350 knots per hour. I suppose it's a little better than the S.W.A.G (Simply A Wild Assed Guess) method or the T.L.A.R. (That Looks About Right) method

[santaman2000]

GPS (and mobile phones) are mandatory items for many ultra-distance events now. Whilst this can often upset the purists, the organisers consider that if the technology is accessible/cheap and greatly improves the safety of entrants then it is entirely reasonable to insist on it being carried.

This is in contrast to when GPS units were actually forbidden in some events, such that it often led to disqualification if a team were observed using one!

Too bad mobile phones don't work unless there are cell towers near. You know, like in the real wilderness where real exploring is done?

[santaman2000]

While I can see the benefits for wilderness situations etc, my big problem with them is the de-skilling aspect - people who have them in their cars and follow them blindly rather than learning to navigate properly. I bet there will be a huge proportion of the younger generation who grow up unable to read maps.

MAPS!? Heck they're growing up unable to read anything!

[santaman2000]

Can someone tell me the exact cable to use for downloading waypoints with the Garmin Etrex h and a laptop?

The one that came with the Garmin. If one didn't come with it then you need to contact Garmin

[santaman2000]

Utterly useless under dense or even partial canopy. There is a tendency to be overreliant on gadgets and gizmos, at the expense of real knowledge and understanding of basic navigation principles. A GPS is a valuable tool to reconcile your existing superb map, compass and ready reckoning skills, but not as a primary navigation system on its own. A GPS is useful to confirm your position as reckoned using traditional methods. That way you will know exactly how lost you are +/- 10m :)

Gadgets and gizmos. You mean like a map and compass?

[plastic-ninja]

I won a Satmap GPS in a competition and it is quite fun to take along to record the route.Also pretty good in poor visibility to offset that feeling that you aren't really where you should be!Having said that I think that the sd cards are ludicrously expensive!Over £100 for SE France,£200 for Switzerland,£200 for UK.Total madness so can't see me buying any cards in a hurry.The onboard Li ion battery lasts for ever on a charge ; over 12 hours every time and more if it is turned off when I'm not using it to navigate.Still carrying my map and compass and a backup compass too as I can't bring myself to truly trust the GPS!
Cheers , Simon