View Full Version : Bushcraft Qualifications.
Hi,
After following the thread about Training courses over on the General Bushcraft forum :wink: and reading about Plumpton college and its course.
I was wondering if some one who's in the know could perhaps give the definative answers to the following questions.
1. Is there a Nationally administered and recognised qualification for teaching Bushcraft and Its associated skills?
2. Should there be one?
Food for thought!!
Cheers
John
I could be wrong but as far as i am aware there is no nationally recognised qualification as a bushcraft unstructor
though there are a number of instructor courses
there would be some benifit to being a nationally recognised qualification such as students being assured that their instructor knows what he is talking about and is not some cowboy
however there are also big drawbacks! like preventing some of the best outdoors men from being able to teach because they dont hold the qualification, many people are the top of their field without ever doing a course, most of the countrys best trackers, foragers, and trappers have no qualifications for what they do
Thanks for the reply.
So that means that anybody with enough funds or an understanding bank manager can set themselves up in business as a bushcraft / survival school without anybody checking that they have ANY ability to teach the subject :shock:
Cheers
John
This seems to be the first (or so it says).
There are a lot of opinions about the value of a course like this.
I dont know if I would want to go on a course run by:
a) someone who had little "actual" experience, but had been taught to teach
or
b) someone with worlds of experience, but who may struggle on the teaching side.
These are the extremes, and I am happy to say that most of the people that I have learnt from (not just in Bushcraft but my other passions) have been truly inspiring.
I think that some of the course contents would be very suited to people wanting to take groups outdoors - and the prospectus makes no secret of this. If you are taking kids on nature walks, or adults, think of the reaction you will get from others when you light a fire by friction, or demonstrate another of the amazing skills/arts that go with this subject.
The current system of "Bushcraft School owner interviews and checks out prospective job applicants" will not change - I hope. But the knowledge of the legal and other aspects - such as Risk Assessment - may well aid a candidate to rise above another if there are two on the short list.
As for a "Controlling Body", that is something that the current generation of teachers must decide on, as that is how these things usually start. I hope they decide on inaction. The thought of an "Institute of Bushcraft Teachers" makes my skin crawl, as my experience of these "clubs" in other industries and fields has often not been as positive as it could have been. Sometimes the level you reach has no bearing on your usefulness to the field.
The other end of the stick - I hope to do a Fisheries management qualification next year - I like fishing. Maybe I would consider a course like the one at Plumpton if it felt right and taught me more about one of the subjects that I love.
My opinion - hope I haven't offended. :rant:
b) someone with worlds of experience, but who may struggle on the teaching side.
Wise words indeed..... Just because someone is skilled, doesn't mean that that someone has the ability to pass this knowledge on.
Ed
bothyman
18-12-2003, 08:25
[quote] b) someone with worlds of experience, but who may struggle on the teaching side.
One way to evaluate your Teachers
>> http://wmuma.com/spiritual/spiritualteachers.html
All good points, but I would suggest that some of the qualifications, if not the skills, that are neccessary are covered by existing qualifications such as the Mountain Leaders qual, Canoe coach etc. These qualifications cover the safety aspects of an activity along with some instructional skills training, but they dont cover how you can use the skills. For example, if I take someone out canoeing I could use that session to teach them canoeing skills, we could just be out for a jaunt or we could go fishing or whatever - thats up to me - but I must at least operate that session as safely as the standards demand.
Bushcraft schools operating in an outdoor environment will already have had to reassure their insurers that they are operating to an industry standard. If they are working with under 18 year olds they will very probably have to register with the Adventure Activities Licencing Authority. They will have to ensure that they are using appropriately skilled and trained people to run the courses that they offer. This doesn't mean that they have to be qualified by any National Governing Body but it does mean that the standards set by the appropriate NGB qualification will usually be taken as the benchmark for the levels of experience and abilities of staff. If there was an accident involving a Bushcraft School operating in an environment covered by an existing qualification and staff weren't qualified, then the Bushcraft School would have a hard job on their hands trying to prove that they weren't negligent.
Some outdoor centres work around this by using "techies" who are fully qualified and who oversee the safety of a programme, while course tutors, who are skilled at delivering whatever the programme is, teach.
I would hope that the skills, knowledge and experience that many many unqualified people have is valued and saved and passed on to others, but I would also hope that if someone is operating a business doing this, that they are operating to the highest possible standards of safety and good practise.
George
TheViking
21-07-2004, 15:40
Hi...
This may be a little old thread.... :shock: :wink:
Don't think there should be any form of 'education' in teaching bushcraft. It's better that people knows a little about it, instead of ending up in a survival situation and don't know anything.... :wink: :biggthump
That's my opinion anyway... :biggthump :wave:
Fallow Way
21-07-2004, 17:34
Personally I think a qualification in Bushcraft is not a good thing, for many of the reasons already discussed.
What I am trying to do (as i`m sure many others are) is gain enough knowledge and experience to feel comfortable teaching. At the minute I have sooo many poeple wanting me to teach courses but i am turning them down as I do not feel right in teaching. I may have a good grounding in knowledge, but personally I want to have a number of years of experience before I start teaching.
At present I am limiting myself to doing "introductions to....". This, as it sounds, is just to frame the subject of bushcraft, demonstrate a few of the skills, let them have a go and then guide them towards organisations that can then teach them properly. I feel comfortable doing this level as it is based on my own experiences, my own bushcraft to date, and that I really want poeple to become interested in the subject. I dont get paid for it (if money is offered I ask that it is given to a charity) and do it soley to promote bushcraft.
Not trying to be antagonistic, but I know quite a few cowboys who know their bushcraft as well throwing a rope and branding stock. :wink: Must have a different meaning over your way. :?:
i have just received my comfirmation for an interview with a view to doing the Plumpton course run by John Ryder. it is asking that i take my regular bushcraft kit with me to preform a few basics like fire lighting and tool use plus plant lore. This suprised me to some extent for i have 15 years teaching experience. I was expecting to be interviewed on my suitablity to teach my personality and my views on our countryside. the techniques involved in bushcraft are what i was expecting to learn in detail.
Perhaps i am missing the point if i can already perform all the skills involved then i don't need the course.
i realise that skill in a subject doesnt mean you can succesfully pass the knowledge on. however that is the skills i was hoping to sharpen and to learn the latest legal implications of teaching.
there are many rogues in most fields and some of these are very qualified to national standards. the worst instruction i have received was on a 2 courses run by one of the national watersport centres. the teaching was by rote with no attention to individual needs. the syallabus requires abc so that i was we shall do.
i pray that bushcraft doesnt follow this route. there are many fine people out there wishing to learn let us hope they are taught the spirit and well as the technique of bushcraft.
My feelings on this subject are that there are no right answers and no shortcuts. if you had a standard qualification you'd have a situation like driving schools - you still find good ones and awful ones, all certified to an approved standard.
On the other hand you could regulate the industry in the way other lesisure activities are (and let's face it, no matter how much gloss is put on it, it is a leisure activity for most people who participate) but then that's tried in other areas.
Bushcraft is not courses or brand names or showing off or the latest knife or kit or being taught by someone off the telly or from a book. Bushcraft is a commitment to lifelong learning about the outdoors - nature, weather, terrain, plant and animal life, biology, chemistry, physics ... the stuff of life that takes us closer to what the actually are, rather than think we have become. A course or book or watching a TV program can play a part in the learning, but that alone is not bushcraft!
:chill:
A very thorny subject.
By having a national body, with some form of registration, it would give Jo Public a sense of reassurance, that all the affiliated schools were taking things seriously.
However, having seen the sort of buraucracy that the government always piles on those wanting to be regulated, it drives many to either say "Hang it all, I can't be bothered. I'm going back to office work", or the cost of running the business goes up due to having to retain a legal advisor, employ a team to cope with the forty thousand forms, the insurance for this and that, the expensive external training to cover all the required paperwork etc., and the very spirit of the topic is lost as people become disheartened with the red tape or just to bogged down dealing with it and having to get others, who may not be as passionate about the subject, to do the teaching.
And the point about not all qualified peole being able to teach, I had a lecturer who had degrees and certificates coming out of his ears btu who couldn't teach chemistry as he made the whole thing so boring, a lot of us decided to get a degree in darts and beer, btu when his boss (who had a LOT of experience, but only a few qualifications) took over the group, the landlord
complained that his profits were drying up...
Anyone ever heard this before ; those that can do it, do it, those that can't teach.
Well bushcraft is a multi faceted thing, if you can't do it you may end up in trouble, if you can and have difficulties in the teaching role fine, you can always take on an advisory role.
Although it is not an industry, I can see the point for an industry standard, as this would provide a benchmark that all schools would have to achieve, it also means that courses would be more singular.
In this I mean that you would learn fewer skills per course, a lot of the courses that I have seen cost a lot of money and teach a mass of subject matter in a short space of time.
It gives you a broad spectrum of knowledge within the group, but as an individual you may only come away with a few bits, this can/will make things awkward at a later date.
If however you did bushcraft qualifications in modules, like computer quals or diving (MCP within MCSE varying levels of BSAC), it would be possible to have people who are highly qualified within thier field, teaching specific subjects that they specialise in to novices. At the end you come out with a foundation course that can be put towards a later qualification, but you would still have to show that you are capable of doing all aspects to a degree to achieve the later qualification. :-)
A most excellent point made there by young Adi! And as Jakunen points out with anything official comes the red tape.
At the end of the day I think it is safe to say that regulation will never happen and so all you can do is use your sense when shopping for courses - but that is a thread we have beaten to death many times on here.
As for Wayne's comment - I must be missing the point too mate because that seems odd to me as well!
MartiniDave
22-07-2004, 11:36
One of the things that attracted me to bushcraft, and I have to say I'm a fairly casual bushcrafter in that I mainly do a bit of carving, bit of making, some hunter/gathering but very little overnight stuff, was that I felt it was somethign I could just go and do.
I chose to do a couple of courses, nobody said I had to. Coming from the shooting world where everything is legislated to hell and getting worse, that was a real breath of fresh air.
I don't think I like the idea of "the institiute of advanced bushcraft" or whatever. Live and let live, do what you do. If you are unsure about a given school, ask here and I'm sure you'll get an honest, unbiased answer.
Dave
Tuppences will not be refunded!
Totally flippant thought, and sorry to bring the tone down, but...
In places like Africa and New Zealand, every father hands his bushcraft skills and knowledge down to his sons, he has no formal qualification, he is just in tune with his world and is practised in his skills. And there is no formal regulation, apart from the knowledge and wisdom of the ancestors.
Sorry, just remembered a converstaion with a friends husband from some years ago who is a Maori.
(probably gonna get flamed now...)
NickBristol
22-07-2004, 15:10
I totally agree with you Jakunen - so we can be flamed together, tho people are really too nice here to do much flaming...Hopefully :rolmao:
I learned most from my father and will be forever in his debt for the skills and attitudes he taught me by taking me outdoors, or even just to his garage - to learn about wood, tools, science, art and nature and how to survive. I think the best teachers are those that can ignite that spark of interest in our hearts that moves us on to keep learning and to keep experimenting and to keep experiencing. Having a formal qualification isn't necessary unless you want to teach formally, and then I think it should lean more towards creating a safe teaching environment and how to properly run a teaching business. Having a qualification that simply states you can start a fire by friction in under a minute isn't what Bushcrafting (is that a word?!?) is about. Good schools will always get a good reputation and it's forums like these that allow that reputation to foster openly.
I think the best teachers are those that can ignite that spark of interest in our hearts that moves us on to keep learning and to keep experimenting and to keep experiencing.
I couldn't agree more! If you can set the spark, the flames can onyl grow with encouragement.
My grandfather was a master carpenter and cabinet maker. I have fond memories of sitting on his knee in his workshop and being told which wood was which, which ones were good for building carcases, which were prized for inlays etc. I got my love for wood from him and, while I'm nowhere NEAR as good a carpenter as him, I still yearn to learn more, to build better pieces, all because he took an annoying little bugger who wouldn't stop asking questions and opened his eyes and set a spark in his heart and mind.
I still can't pass a beautiful piece of furniture without running my fingers over it and thinking fondly of the old man.
Cor, feel all misty eyed now...
jamesdevine
22-07-2004, 16:07
Your turning me misty eyed as well.
I have found memories of my father doing the same and some of Grandfather but even to this day I am still learning from him.
james
Carcajou Garou
27-07-2004, 03:03
I am more in agreement with Gary as to National certification, so that a set level of skills are passed on but it has to be flexible enough so that to each would allow his/her expertise to rise, as a business . Most aboriginals learn from elders that they follow out in their daily outings and basicly learn by osmosis, the elders who know bushcraft here could not really pass a National cetification course not enough formal school education but I would follow them.
just a thought
RovingArcher
27-07-2004, 04:53
Applying regulations to and asking that teachers be licensed for something as simple and pure as Bushcraft seems alien to me. Modern man is going to regulate himself right off the planet. :?:
To me, the obvious drawbacks of asking for them to regulate the craft are that when government gets involved, the people lose. Course prices will increase and Insurance companies will have a say as to how many, who, how much and what, can be taught. The government will want to know why axes and knives must be used and will start regulating or banning tools that are needed for the craft. The government will start passing regulations on what can and can't be done while in the woods and you'll be looking at the end of bushcraft as you currently know it.
If the reason you want regulations is so that you don't waste your money on a bogus teacher, then ask that teacher for a list of clients that you can contact. That is a common practice here in the States when considering hunting outfitters. If they can't furnish a list of satisfied clients, then don't use them. Better yet, talk to the people on this and other bushcrafting sites and get their opinions. If you can't trust these folks, you gotta find another source of fun, because these folks got it going. :super:
Like Carcajou stated in his post, the best way to learn about living and working in harmony with nature (bushcraft) is through osmosis. Going out with an experienced individual and watching them and doing what they do. Or, you can stumble around like me and learn it all the hard way. :roll: :wink:
Carcajou Garou
27-07-2004, 17:22
Saygo!! RA, nice to hear your words again. They make sense to me. Not as many boars to hunt here but a lot of bears almost the same!!! Go north young man, go north. BC is closer and more kinds of bears, black, brown and grizz!!
I was trying to put myself in the UK's state of mind with most people who are eager to learn bushcraft but don't have a yardstick to measure experience in nature, and wanting to access proper guidance but could come upon either "PROS" or "mis-guided enthusiasts" the choice, unless they are part of a board as this, would be difficult.
The thing about national certification that worrie's me is your point...
RA-
"To me, the obvious drawbacks of asking for them to regulate the craft are that when government gets involved, the people lose. Course prices will increase and Insurance companies will have a say as to how many, who, how much and what, can be taught. The government will want to know why axes and knives must be used and will start regulating or banning tools that are needed for the craft. The government will start passing regulations on what can and can't be done while in the woods and you'll be looking at the end of bushcraft as you currently know it."
Very well put!!!, I should have said better in my text, it is a hard question to answer without losing either competency or being overegulated to the enth degree. Even in Canada we have this inconsistency in our experts, some of who mix "bushcraft and survival" I know better minds than mine will solve this.
Maybe a star rating programe set up by a combined group of enthusiasts and experts in the business could give a helping hand.
It seems Creator has given us a blessing that I had not realized, our access to nature in a great variety of locales. I never really thought of this freedom of access that much until lately, it never occurred to me that others were not so fortunate.
just a thought
Maybe a star rating programe set up by a combined group of enthusiasts and experts in the business could give a helping hand.
Good idea btu would be very open to misuse. "He was rubbish as he wouldn't let me bring my crossbow, so I'll get all my mates to give him a bad mark". And surely, the 'experts' would have to be 'authenticated' in the say way...
Sorry to play devils advoca
RovingArcher
27-07-2004, 20:36
O'siyo Carcajou; I hope this finds you and your family well and with good spirit.
Even though my intentions and words may not be applicable in all circumstances and places, I felt obligated to share what has happened in America time and time again. Mind you, I'm not anti government at all. Humans have a need for rules and must choose leaders that will work in their best interests. However, it's been my experience to view over regulating first hand. You ask for something beautiful to be regulated so that it doesn't get ruined for what ever reason and the next thing you know, for the good of the people and the country, what started off as good intention, ends up terminal to that which you wanted made safe.
I'm still a big fan of learning one on one with an experienced outdoorsperson. The old way of learning through osmosis is still the best way in my opinion, but unfortunately, if there are more wannabe students and few instructors, then courses are the only alternative. Another unfortunate is that, not all people learn at the same pace and the time restraints of the course will leave many with little more information available to them than they arrived with. To me, if someone pays their hard earned money for a course, they deserve to walk away with an education. That is a primary reason that I don't feel that money should ever get involved with anything like bushcraft. It's always been something that has been handed down out of love for the craft and Nature.
Yes, I know. I am a very outspoken individual sometimes and for that I apologize to those that are put off by my words. But then, they are only my words and opinions and perhaps one or two of them will make sense. :wink:
I'm still a big fan of learning one on one with an experienced outdoorsperson. The old way of learning through osmosis is still the best way in my opinion, but unfortunately, if there are more wannabe students and few instructors, then courses are the only alternative. Another unfortunate is that, not all people learn at the same pace and the time restraints of the course will leave many with little more information available to them than they arrived with. To me, if someone pays their hard earned money for a course, they deserve to walk away with an education. That is a primary reason that I don't feel that money should ever get involved with anything like bushcraft. It's always been something that has been handed down out of love for the craft and Nature.
I agree with you RovingArcher. I worry an awful lot about the outdoors being seen as a cash cow. Many of the skills I have I have picked up, one-to-one from people who were naturally comfortable in the outdoors (my Grandfather was the best bushcrafter I even knew). He was a natural at many skills and had the patience to teach. He also had no ego associated with what he knew and had learnt himself - he saw the skills as normal and natural and passing them on as a duty.
Courses are a modern substitute but watching, listening, learning, practicing, perfecting and mastering skills takes years of active dirttime and quiet time with nature. The one thing I really like about this site is watching people (myself included) going through this process with skills on a regular basis.
:chill:
Carcajou Garou
27-07-2004, 20:56
Saygo!!! RA, lead on :super: I never get tired of your post, they lead in a good way.
just a thought
Wise words Roving Archer and I truely wish life was such that we could all live up to them.
RovingArcher
27-07-2004, 22:36
I agree Gary. The most any man can even hope to accomplish in his short life is to walk the best path available to him at any given time. Unfortunately, anymore it seems that most choose the path of least resistance and self and not the path that benefits the whole.
I can also understand your situation and how you are involved in the craft. I think it's a grand thing that people such as yourself are available to share their wisdom and offer up good gear choices to those in need. It is a must that a student of the craft have the basics of gear down before attending any sort of course. I mean, we're all pretty much gear addicts in one way or another. :wink:
I just hate to see it all get regulated to death, which unless some sort of self regulating is done amoung those that are actually doing the work, that is a very real possibility. If self regulation can be done without making bushcraft into a cash cow competition and it can be done fairly with bushcraft as the beneficiary and not the individual, then it should all work out great.
It would take a lot of work putting together a Bushcraft council and the needed regulations to keep it all pretty much on an even keel, but I think it'd be well worth it to bushcraft and everyone involved in it. It might even be a consideration to involve the scouts and other outdoors organizations for their input while putting it all together.
A thread about planting native trees and other plant life got me to thinking that if the bushcrafters spearheaded an effort to reforest the UK, the gov. might see something special taking place and leave it be. But, you never know.
Les Marshall
31-07-2004, 16:26
I know this thread is a little old now, but on reading it, I have to agree with Rob. I am no expert at bushcraft(who is?), but I have a fair knowledge. However, I would make a lousy instructor, but do instruct a few friends if they ask.
Squidders
24-08-2004, 11:04
Yes, this post is ancient... I know, I know. But i'm torn between wanting some regulation and wanting to keep everything chaotic.
I spend a lot of time outdoors climbing in the peak district, the wye valley and even on southern sandstone. Frequently I forget that the right to climb in these places has been secured by lawyers and negotiators on behalf of the BMC (British Mountaineering Council). The rocks I climb on are always owned by someone and if the BMC didn't have any money from charging for certification, training or membership I would be in the same mess I'm in with bushcraft... nowhere to go without begging directly to sceptical land owners!
On the flip side, I'm not qualified in any aspect of bushcraft or climbing, most of the climbing courses and mountain leader courses are just ropework and self rescue nonsense... they don't teach you how to climb well, how to move on the rock or anything truely useful.
Maybe having a British Bushcraft Council with a membership, preferential insurance, training and certification would create enough revenue to buy woodland areas or secure access with land owners. One more thing the BMC do is to keep track of local wildlife and tell you where not to go during nesting seasons etc... that's information I would have no access to if I wanted to go for a bushcraft afternoon in a given area, I could disturb delicate nesting birds without knowing they were there.
After spouting on for ages... I think I have talked myself into "yes" it's a good idea. I want to pay someone to declare me safe and trustworthy and to secure access for me to woodland.
I will probably get jumped on for this, but it is a slightly different tack to the way a lot of people are looking at things.
I agree with squidders with what he was saying about the BMC, they do a lot of work for those that attend thier accredited courses and are members.
One thing that I can see that would be of use is that if there was some form of legislation then you could get an even balance across the board.
If you go to a school to do an introduction to bushcraft then you would have some form of set curriculum (there would be subject matter that would have to be covered on specific courses) and this goes for basic, advanced and instructors courses.
It also means that if you have done a course with one school at one level then the next level could be done at another and both you and the instructors know the level that you will be at having done x, y or z course.
However problems can arise if you end up with two bodies of legislation as with diving and the whole BSAC and PADI situation, so the control of setting up some form of authorised body would have to be very tightly controlled.
Both the BMC and BSAC give thier students log books so that they can both chart thier progress and levels of experience, time spent on meetups (like the one that BCUK have just had) could then be entered into the log book along with the specific lectures / talks that were attended.
The BMC and BSAC don't teach a lot on thier later courses, what they do is test levels of competence and ability. If wild foods for instance is required to get people at a recognised advanced level then a lot of it would have been taught on a basic level or a seperate course and you could then be assessed on it.
This is not a path that all people would like to take, but if you wanted to instruct, it gives the client / student the knowledge that thier instructor has both the experience and knowledge required. It also means that a students abilities are known to the instructor and school no matter where they have done previous courses or training.
I know it is not a popular view, but this would stop "cowboy" units setting up all over the place and the student then knows exactly what they are getting for thier money.
I don't like the idea of a body in control of things because bushcraft is a chance to be free and enjoy that freedom, but at least with this you could have somewhere to train and know that wherever you have done previous courses at a level it would be pretty much the same as anyone else who has done the equivalent course at any other school.
Interesting idea Leon, the only thing I can find wrong with it is that in establishing a standard type syllabus for different levels you would take away that which makes each company/school different, they'd end up as state schools are now :shock: .
Bushcraft should be about living within the natural environment, eating nuts in the Autumn and spring greens at the birth of a new season - like nature a Bushcraft syllabus should be fluid and every changing.
In some cases it might cause greater problems than that, lets take Bearclaw and Islay birding as I know Jeremy wont mind. Set syllabus states all students on a basic course must learn to I.D five fruit bearing trees or bushes - in Ashdown or Merthyr Mawr not a problem but on Islay? Another example lets say all students on a basic level must learn one fishing technique using improvised hook and line and have fished using this equipment for a period of no less than 30 minutes, on Islay easy but in Ashdown?
Also, I have taught on courses where, right or wrong, veggies have refused point blank to even sit the hunting lectures let alone take part in the butchering of game - would that mean they are failed as this is a crucial skill? And lacking said skill would they then be barred from teaching courses?
:?: Sorry to be awkward but those are just a few of the problems I can envisage. And they are the minor niggles not the major headaches!
Yeah I can see your point there Gary, that is the whole thing about setting up any governing body, the fine details are difficult to sort out.
But look at it as this that the schools as much as areas of learning also become test centers. The only thing that really has a set syllabus is the introductory course. The basic, intermediate, advanced and instructor courses are then a progression.
When you finish each accreditation you are given goals to achieve before attending the next course / test. As with diving where you will do a number of different types of dive before doing the next level (novice to sport diver), but you do them in your own time, so the only pressure to achieve the next level comes from the student him/her self.
As you said not all areas cater for all skills when training. Doing things in a series of modules that can then be tested when you feel you are ready to be tested would allow you to train in different enviroments. All in all this would probably work out more expensive than just going from one course to the next, but your level of both skill and experience would be of a far higher degree as effectively if you wish to progress then you have to spend the time actually practiceing the skills learnt.
The other thing was that I mentioned that this was really for people who want to go on to instruct themselves. Not make a career out of it because as you know, if you are teaching this it is more for the satisfaction that you get from (A) doing it, and (B) imparting the knowledge to someone else. You don't get rich unless you have the media machine behind you.
Again good points mate and I agree with you, as in any subject a well rounded education means attending different courses (in bushcrafts case) run by several different schools but more than, and in my opinion more important than, this is you learning for yourself and thus gaining greater and more varied experience while the building upon the knowledge courses will have given you.
A school can give you the bricks but only you can build the house!
Becoming an instructor is a whole other matter and could get quite sticky on here so I will choose my words with care - usually instructors come up 'in house' and viewing the comments above might or might not be classed as well rounded (not literally although I try! :wink: ) however there are one or two good courses out there such as the plumpton one in the UK which focusses on the business aspects as well as the craft and this might be a good sounding ground where 'in house' trained instructors can go from different school to learn skills from different instructors and perspectives, similar to what we in the army would have called an 'all arms course' but then this too would need to be 'neutral' ground I suppose and who would fund it?.
But now I'm waffling :wave:
Squidders
24-08-2004, 20:09
I had something a lot more general in mind.
For example, that someone can have a camp fire without setting the near by woods alight. It shouldn't matter what method was used to set the fire, friction, sparks, matches or liquid oxygen.
Everyone is right, bush craft, like so many things in life, is a journey... How you make the journey is very personal, you should be allowed to stray from the main paths and explore other aspects of bush craft, not just survival or shelter building but the spirituality that often comes from being such a small person in a large, wild world.
Obviously, as Gary pointed out, what works in one region may not work in another, fire making woods may not be available that you are used to. This would make grading or forming a complex syllabus ridiculous. You can't take an expert in arctic survival and expect them to be effective in a desert or jungle.
I think more of an umbrella organisation would be more useful, not so much a governing body but a representative for the bush craft community at large. Someone to fight our corner for access, to give advice and representation on legislation for using our skills and our often pointy equipment alongside people walking their dogs.
I would gladly pay £50 a year for membership to an organisation that could help my journey. As a side note, the BMC make a lot of money from their publishing division, they produce a number of guide books for areas, reports on equipment durability and safety and because of their size and the size of the community they represent they can lobby government effectively.
I think any exams and/or qualifications should be firmly grounded in keeping people and property safe, not regulating how shelters are built or fires lit.
Joe
Squidders while I can see where your coming from but one major draw back to that would be US! :yikes: - What do I mean?
Land is precious (as in delicate and in decline) in this country, woodland more so and while the wear and tear on a rock face is still a problem it is not as bad or as rapid as the damage to woodland caused by mountain bikers and this would be nothing if compared to the rapid 'using up' of resources, such as fire wood, in an area designated as ok for bushcraft. The intense usage of such a site would be devastating to the whole local eco-system.
We have all seen it ourselves in areas where courses are run or where scouts regularly visit. Easy access would only damage that which we love.
Nigels (squirellboys) example is the best one - or as so many wiser than I have said before me 'take only photographs leave only foot prints.'
As for paying an organisation - that, to my mind, seems to be defeating the object - to me the attraction of 'the craft' is the precieved freedom that it holds - organisations only bring red tape and sooner or later youd be a glorified camping club!
Squidders
24-08-2004, 20:37
compared to the rapid 'using up' of resources, such as fire wood, in an area designated as ok for bushcraft. The intense usage of such a site would be devastating to the whole local eco-system.
I may be missing the point but aren't we all wandering around, using resources, taking photos and cleaning up after ourselves at the moment anyway?
I would think that for individual to approach a land owner, they would be met with scepticism and doubt. If an organisation were to approach the land owner and present a code of cunduct for its members (a non restrictive code, that we pretty much all use anyway) finding somewhere would be a lot easier.
Also, the organisation would be able to collect information, real information about the use of land and overuse of land so that the above fear would not become a reality.
As for paying an organisation - that, to my mind, seems to be defeating the object - to me the attraction of 'the craft' is the precieved freedom that it holds - organisations only bring red tape and sooner or later youd be a glorified camping club!
Like we're not facing red tape already :nana:
:rolmao: very true Squidders, none of us are truely free but hey thats a different story.........
As for land usage, think of it this way, a cow in a one acre field will browse without ever eating all the grass for it will grow behind her. But a herd of cows in the same field will quickly munch the lot.
I see what your saying but I doubt this 'organisation' could get unlimited access every where, land owners dont like people with axes and matches running around their woods. So it is better if for each of us to be the cow rather than the herd!
Unfortunately in Britian there just isnt the land - America, Canada, Sweden, Finland etc maybe you could do it but sad I think not here!
Squidders
24-08-2004, 22:49
I agree... This little island does suck somewhat at times does it not :cry:
It would be a nice idea but I guess the more accessible you make something, the more people will try it even with only a passing interest. That would make it even harder for the obsessive ones.
It's frustrating at times though, not being able to get a definitive answer to things. You and everyone else here are incredibly knowledgeable and supportive but there are so many grey areas. I guess you had the same frustrations when you were starting out.
I just wish I had the time to dedicate to progressing things myself. I know you run courses and after talking to you here I *WILL* be trying to book a few after this weekend but is there a list of providers anywhere with the areas they cover, what they specialise in and where the courses are held?
Cheers :You_Rock_
Joe
Joe I believe there is a schools list on here somewhere.
Joe I believe there is a schools list on here somewhere.
There used to be one on the front page of the site here (http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/200/index.html). And there is one that deals with what some of the schools deal with here (http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/news/coursenews.html) You should be able to find some bits in this area:-)
Although Islay Birding is not on the list at the moment - however, thanks to Gary, Jason and Leon piloting our Journeyman..in the footsteps of.. course we now can offer this course with a recognised national award. That is; The John Muir Award. See the blog during July/August. If you need to know more email me or chat at the Wilderness Gathering. :wave:
jeremyh
Although Islay Birding is not on the list at the moment - however, thanks to Gary, Jason and Leon piloting our Journeyman..in the footsteps of.. course we now can offer this course with a recognised national award. That is; The John Muir Award. See the blog during July/August. If you need to know more email me or chat at the Wilderness Gathering. :wave:
jeremyh
That's fair and the course would be worth doing for the location in itself :super:
Sorry if I’m being dim :roll: , JeremyH, but what exactly is the John Muir Award? I read the excellent blog on the Islay trip (and I’m envious!) but still don’t know what the award bit means.
Just in case I don’t get to chat to you at the Wilderness Gathering on Saturday :wave: .
Ted W
We spoke! Thanks for the info. I hope I can make one of the trips - if not, then next year!
Ted W
R-Bowskill
22-09-2004, 09:22
If you want to get experience of teaching bushcraft start small with 'skill share' where you teach someone something you know and they teach you something they know in return. If you're wanting to go for a job as a bushcraft instructor it will mean you can say you've taught those skills on a 1 to 1 basis or to small groups. You'll learn alot about teaching practical skills
I've got no qualifications in teaching or geology but I've taught quite a few people how to pan gold and where to look for it. In the same way I've taught people about wild foods and other bushcraft skills while learning from them in a very informal manner. On a walk point things such as edible plants, animal tracks and useful items out to people if they respond positively tell them what you know or show them what you mean and let them try for themselves.
Hey presto you're teaching bushcraft.
One of the biggest problems with an organization would be who would run it.Years ago ,when the martial arts scene exploded,the govt. set up the Martial Arts Commission.The result was an utter shambles.Very highly skilled teachers refused to be examined by MAC "experts",the british judo association refused to join,some styles joined and then left and vice - versa.In the end ,after a lot of wasted time and money it collapsed.
I can see the same thing happening if bushcraft tried.Some of the best outdoor people I know are gamekeepers ,river bailiffs etc.They would certainly refuse to be examined and they are too busy to be examiners.
I can't really see any solution to this problem but maybe someone else can
bothyman
25-09-2004, 17:10
but what exactly is the John Muir Award?
>>
http://www.jmt.org/award/index.html
any one seen this? (http://www.plumpton.ac.uk/pages/Courses%5CCountryside/coursedetail.asp?FCID=304&DEP=3) :yikes:
Fallow Way
07-02-2005, 22:11
I just thought I would bring this thread back into circulation again as i find it a fascinating topic.
Are there any updates as to where we stand since that previous post in terms of reactions and results from the various courses (2 I am aware of, Mr Ryder at Plumpton and there is another under the Open College Network).
BIG-TARGET
07-02-2005, 23:10
anyone consider using "The Rule Of 3's", as a roadmap to qualification???
2 I am aware of, Mr Ryder at Plumpton and there is another under the Open College Network
There are now a couple of different OCN's taught in the UK, they tend to be a very local thing as each area submits assessment criteria for their own courses which have to be approved by the open college network and adhere to strict standards.
The one which we (thats the WEA who I work for, not BCUK) teach in south wales is a wilderness living skills course and is built up of various modules. It is not an instructors course, neither is it designed for people who want to lead outdoors. It is a course to take a newbie through the basics of bushcraft and later on, level 2 covers some more advanced topics building on the skills taught in level 1. Level 1&2 takes a year to complete with only 1 actual class a week, you are expected to complete tasks in your own time, then there are skills weekends during the holidays to get together with other students and get the skills refined ready for assessments..... and a chance to camp out and have some fun.
:-)
Ed