the sap is rising!

[Peter_t]

well in east sussex at least. i was pruning some sycamore trees on saturday (not the best time of year but work is quiet) and sap was actually dripping from the wounds!

this is good news if you want to tap trees for their sap but i suspect that it may be worth waiting until the buds start opening as the flow is likely to be greater. of coarse different species will come out of dormancy at different times.


just a word about tapping trees for sap. please please don’t drill deeper than necessary!!! there is no need and it is highly damaging to the tree.




a bit of theory-

the sugary sap comes from the phloem which is a thin layer just beneath the bark. this is made of vessels that connect the roots to the leaves. as the tree photosynthesizes it stores energy from the sun in the form of sugar. this sugar is the trees food as well as building material. any left over sugar is transported to the roots for storage. in autumn the trees leaves fall off and photosynthesis stops (in the case of deciduous trees. evergreens do not have a dormant stage but the rate of photosynthesis does slow). in spring the tree comes out of dormancy and the sugars stored in the roots travel up the phloem to the dormant buds. these buds are produced before autumn. the sap gives the buds energy to open and produce new leaves to resume photosynthesis.

the time the tree comes out of dormancy is controlled by temperature. when i was working on saturday i pruned a row of three sycamores and noticed that the one tree that was in the shade of the house for most of the day had the leest amount of sap flow.

as the phloem is so thin and close to the bark there is no reason to drill past this layer.

beneath the phloem is the cambium which is where new phloem and xylem vessels are produced. xylem is basically wood. it is split up in two layers, the sapwood and the heartwood. the sapwood transports water and minerals from the roots. the heartwood is inactive and only purpose is to support the tree.

when you drill into the tree it will expose the tree to fungal spores. these spores are constantly present in the air so WILL enter the wound. the deeper you drill the more of a head start you give the fungi.

forget what ray mears says about plugging the tree will prevent infection. a wooden plug is not fungi proof as will actually become a source of food and place for the fungi to develop. trees have ways to resist fungal attack but as the plug does not (this resistance to fungal attack is called compartmentalization if your a real tree geek;)).

different species of tree have greater resistance to fungi than others but birch's defences are fairly poor and the wood rots very quickly.

if you drill deep into the tree the fungi will decay the tree from the inside out and the trunk will essentially become a tube. imagine bending a straw or cardboard tube, it will suddenly fold and collapse. the same thing happens to hollow trees.

going by this it is wise to not tap any trees near buildings, roads etc. because hollow trees are a hazard.
don't tap your tree in your garden!:rolleyes:


i hope i haven’t bored you too much and thanks for your patience reading this:)

pete

[fred gordon]

In my garden the snow is still 2 feet deep, I haven't seen my grass since before Christmas, the rabbits climbed over my fence and ate all my bushes and trees, all the guttering has been swept off my house by the snow and on the way down it burst me canoe. Yes my sap is rising too!:rant::rant::vio:

[Rob_Beek]

Good info, thanks.

Ever used it as a sugar/sweeter in tea or coffee?

[JonathanD]

It was the end of February when it started rising last year, the best of it came within the first two weeks of March here in South Staffs.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38558

[Commoner]

I would think a plug of warmed pine sap would seal against fungal spore attack, but would not personally bother as birch neither scarce nor long-lived in any event, fungi's gonna get 'em sometime! Also (no offence to MA if you tune in) I can honestly say that every birch-sap wine I have tasted has been pants. :p

Have cut mature birch (2'6") in mid-winter and still had significant sap flow (which looks cool when it freezes btw). Sap sugar content varies significantly with season, but some broadleaf trees can be sappy all year, just means they aren't frozen and neither is the ground. Doesn't mean it will be worth fermenting.

[launditch1]

Uh-oh, out comes the one inch augers.

[phill_ue]

Uh-oh, out comes the one inch augers.

Indeed, overkill if you ask me! This picture reminds me of how ridiculous drilling a massive hole is:

http://htmlhelp.com/~liam/California/Yosemite/MariposaGrove/TunnelTree.jpg

I often wonder how much damage so called bushcrafters make in pursuit of a hobby!

[launditch1]

:D:DIs that your holiday snap?
And where are your hands??

[phill_ue]

No, a Google image.

[Peter_t]

I would think a plug of warmed pine sap would seal against fungal spore attack,

covering wounds with non porus substances is worse as moisture is traped under it which speeds up decay.

many tests have proved that wound paint is a massive con:o



pete

[hedgerow pete]

sorry lads but i will already be sharpening my drill bits this weekend ready for the end of the month for tree sap, birch, sycamore and walnut are first with if I can find some or one is maples that are big enough, Last year I did 10 trees and this year we are hoping to double that number, each tree only looses a t most 4 litres which does it no harm

[Asa Samuel]

I don't have an auger, is there another way to tap the sap effectively with the ree still being able to recover?

[scubapauly]

I don't have an auger, is there another way to tap the sap effectively with the ree still being able to recover?

I'm in the same situation.

[Angelo]

Nice one pete i didnt know any of that and very intresting i found.
regards
Angelo

[Stew]

Uh-oh, out comes the one inch augers.

Indeed! I remember the raving going on last year. Idiots!

What makes me laugh is that it's not that exciting of a drink on it's own, nor from what I have heard does it make an exciting wine.

[C_Claycomb]

I kinda like the wine, but only had it a couple of times. I am not all that fussed about poking holes in trees so that I can feel in touch with nature by harvesting the sap. Maybe if this was Maine and we had sugar maples I would feel different...I DO like maple syrup:D

A group at one of Swyn's Hoots had a go at tapping some birch. All done with tiny twigs poked into horizontal slits no more than a centimetre or so wide. Tip of knife blade poked into bark at a 45 degree upward angle, and a little sharpened twig pushed in as a guide for the sap. The take was not huge, not as much as you would get drilling a great hole, but enough. As a way for everyone to sample the sap, perfectly adequate.

[Melonfish]

ok i've read why not to drill too deep however i'm a little confused, recently i've been doing some hedgelaying and a pleaching cut litterally strips away most of the trunk leaving only some bark, some sapwood and a spot of inner.
how would this be different? we're exposing the entire inner of the trunk to the open world all we did however was cut the stump so that water wouldn't sit in the gaps/cut section, otherwise they generally thrive after this.

i don't mean to be obtuse i'm just curious. ta.

[Peter_t]

it is no different melonfish, any cutting is bad for the tree.

when trees are harshly pruned, 'topped' or pollarded the tree will fight back by sending out loads of shoots (epicormic growth if your a tree geek lol) to replace the foliage that it has lost.

people think pruning is good for a tree because of the 'healthy looking' new growth but the tree has to use up loads of its resources to replace the lost foliage. the lack of resources in the tree also means that it has less resistance to fungi.

some tree species such as willow, poplar, hazel and elm are vigorous enough to tolerate harsh treatment but others such as oak will not

trees that have been topped or pollarded often have limbs snap out because of rot near the wounds. this is not a problem in hedges or regularly cut coppices because there is no real weight or height involved so there is no real hazard therefore no problem.



hope this helps:)

pete

[woof]

Peter T, thats facinating info, thanks for sharing.

Rob

[Melonfish]

indeed cheers for sharing, i'm learning buckets on these courses but i still have far to go ;)
Can you suggest any reading material i could pick up?
thanks
pete

[hedgerow pete]

here's a few more tips for you lot, I will either use a cork bung, tube, cork bung , bottle set up to remove sap or I will use a hole, pipe, milk bottle, so starting from the easyiest way lets say we have a 1 gallon demi john, which is what we would ferment wine into so i would use a lengh of clear tube of 1/2" or 3/8" diameter to connect the two together the corks that I use to fit the tube are quite large so a 25 mm hole is drilled using a hand brace and bit and aurger( battery drill and flat bit will do) the hole i drill is 10 mm in from the inside edge of the bark so normaly around 20 in total, this then has the cork and pipe stuffed into it and then into the demi john the whole lot is covered with a lot of greenary to hide it as all my trees are in the public domain the date for this is normal around the 24th of feb, as the sap will rise between then and the 20th of march after that the tree is best left alone till next year, by the way i dont do any angle of dangle with the drill bits just straight in, the other way is to use a clear tube of 13mm diameter and drill the same size hole of 13mm anf them push the pipe in and stuff the other end into a empty milk container and then seal it with duck tape and again cover it up, maximum you want to rob from a tree is a gallon and after wards what i do is I come along with a wooden dowel made from one of the trees brachs of the same size and drive it home with a big hammer, you can use clay or another cork but its very hard to reuse the same hole as it will heal over and seal so you have to drill a larger hole than last time to cut the new fibres

[RAPPLEBY2000]

of course there is another option!

take sap from trees that are going to be felled anyway! :D

speak to volunteer conservation work people,
they are constantly felling birch as it's a bit of a nuisance plant in many places especially heathland areas.

I asked them where I could tap trees, they told me which ones, as they will be cut down soon.

another option go on a volunteer day and find out!

[Commoner]

B pendula and pubescens are both a lot of work on heathland sites. ask your county or NP etc ranger service and they should happily let you take sap (and the timber too if you are licensed and insured).

I used to manage heaths, woods and heath/wood pasture sites and we had so many different people taking products and materials from birch you would not believe it. birch is NOT ENDANGERED folks. it coppices naturally, it rebounds from brief or cool fires and I have treated the same stumps several years running to kill it even with neat glyphosate.

no need to be tree-huggers, people have tapped birch for thousands of years, they have been coppiced, clear-felled, used as nursery crops and just about every imaginable management technique (not seen much pollarding on natives though as short-lived) and they have a ridiculous number of uses including tanning, oil production, wine, soap, horse jumps, clogs, bus floors etc etc etc etc anybody really interested should get hold of "heathland harvest" by ethnobotanist Chris Howkins, it is a v good introduction to the uses of various plants found in heathland ecosystems, a post-industrial, four thousand year old (at least) man-made landscape by the way.

I won't tell you what we used to do to oaks...

[Stew]

I won't tell you what we used to do to oaks...

Go on, tell us. :D

[JonathanD]

I won't tell you what we used to do to oaks...


Is this the story about the woodpecker hole you found at waist height?

[Melonfish]

Hah birch and willow all get the chop on the local mossland when we're on there, its invasive! it gets everywhere it really does.
i actually live in an area called "Birchwood" i'll be getting plenty this spring :D

[Stanleythecat]

I got some sugar maple 'spiles' from ebay to see if they would be any good this year, the same 'taps' they use to collect maple sap which is then reduced to make the syrup.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/25-Maple-Syrup-Spouts-Sap-Bucket-Spiles-Taps_W0QQitemZ370330126274QQcm dZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomai n_0?hash=item56396547c2

I got 6 for about £6, don't need 25 like the ones above! But you can see what they look like. The drill hole is a lot smaller so hopefully less invasion on the tree.

youtube video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwbgwBnRnG8&feature=related

I know bushcraft is about minimal kit... but we all like a curiosity don't we? I've shown them to people and not one has guessed what it could be yet!

Leo

[Native Nathan]

I know bushcraft is about minimal kit...

Personally I think bushcraft is......... the study of the art of being comfortable outdoors.....

Some have mastered this on minimal kit, others like myself are still learning...

I use a peice of branch as a drip tube, and a tin can as my collection pot, I cover the pot with a peice of muslin to keep out any dirt (I secure this with an elastic band to the can.

If I cant place the can on the deck I Secure it to the tree with some old wool or twine.

[Commoner]

Oaks
"Is this the story about the woodpecker hole you found at waist height?" :)

no, too small :D

we had sites we were supposed to be managing for internatinally rare heathland, but the landowner was well-meaninng tree-hugger (eg parish council) they would say
"oh look another beautiful oak tree there," pointing to a stumpy little WEED in the heather!
I would sneak back later (guerilla conservation) - then when they noticed that it was ailing somewhat I'd say "loh yes, what a shame, i think it might be the dogs weeing on it, its very close to the path" or occasionally blame "Sheffield blight" :lmao:

Top Tip - I also carried out some fantastic pollarding, with a csaw on top of landy roof, back it up tight to trunk and its just the right height.
(very naughty elfin safety, my boss used to wince and look away) :D

[dave53]

hi pete very interesting article didnt know any of that thanka

[addo]

Top Tip - I also carried out some fantastic pollarding, with a csaw on top of landy roof, back it up tight to trunk and its just the right height.
(very naughty elfin safety, my boss used to wince and look away) :D

Landys are handy like that ;) :D

[littlebiglane]

It certainly is rising in sycamores and norway maples in Devon. I used a nearby Elder as the 'tube' as it has a large pith to shape the groove for the sap to run down.


http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/littlebiglane/IMGP5766.jpg

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/littlebiglane/IMGP5767.jpg


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http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/littlebiglane/IMGP5771.jpg

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