Advice on poaching laws in the uk

[hedgerow pete]

There is an old view of a single poacher taking one for the pot , in todays market its more like shot guns and hand guns and whole fields of sheep and cows, so one's head is not in the clouds

but what are the modern day rules for the illigeal taking of game, I wish to know what they are so I can be sure not to break them, I would also like to know about goose hunting rules, season, caliber, breed type etc

can anyone help clear away the rumours from the facts??

[hedgerow pete]

Forgot to say does anyone know what the rules and ownership are of the canal systems and for the taking of bunnies

[scubapauly]

As far as I know, you need landowners permission for just about everything.

[Klenchblaize]

You'll be breaking the law whichever way you look at it without landowner permission although method of capture will play a role in whether a custodial sentence is on the cards! Get caught taking a rabbit with a firearm and you're in a large pile of the brown stuff.

Don't get caught is one way of looking at it but not recommended.

Cheers

[Rob_Beek]

I've got a book that pretty much covered everything about countryside laws from back in the gamekeeping days.

Fair Game by Charlie Parkes n John Thornley

http://www.alibris.co.uk/search/books/qwork/2233413/used/Fair%20game

[njc110381]

In my opinion anything firearm related should be forgotten about. I'm a keen shooter and the sport doesn't need another numpty causing trouble. I don't mean to sound rude, but look at the wider picture. It makes legal sportsmen look bad and it's not going to do you any favours either! The possible sentences are quite serious.

If you're out with a few snares I can't see the problem. It's a bit rude but if you check them regularly and don't set them where someones dog is likely to get stuck in one then it's hardly the crime of the century.

Have you tried approaching land owners to ask if you can trap their ground? Shooting rights aren't the easiest to come by but then the risks involved for the landowner are greater.

If you ever find yourself in my area and want a bunny or two for the pot then give me a shout. You're welcome to come out on my permissions and shoot something if you fancy the experience. But please keep things legal, the ownership of firearms is a world of hoops to jump through already and we don't need more statistics suggesting it should be even harder.

[Front Room Woodlander]

If approached the right way many landowners will allow folk to take bunnies, usually in return for pot ready ones and a bottle of sloe gin at Christmas.
Find the country pub where landowners / workers gather and start nattering with them. Just now we're coming to the end of pheasant season and attention will turn to pigeons (friday afternoon right through feb). Ask if you can come along to watch, fetch and carry. An extra hand is always welcome.
Don't be suprised if their a little gaurded at first as the anti's often use similar tactics to gather their intel. Be polite, be persistant.
As for caliber I'd suggest practice with a catapult. When you can consistantly hit a two pence piece at reasonable range then you can move onto the bunnies.

[hedgerow pete]

Thanks for the tips so far , but I did not explain my self correctly.

I originate from south warwickshire and spent most of my childhood in the fields. I have been with and trained and learned many mant hunting and traping meathods(all non fire arm)
I am looking at several bunny colonys that are along the canel system of birmingham, for me to go to the real country side is beyond my pocket money at the moment as work is very short on the ground, so I am looking to remove bunnies from the canal, I know aboy asking for land owners permission but who owns the canel side banks not the canels , british water ways or the council or someone else and where do i find out?

second part was all along the canal are canadian geese, so the next question was are there season dates to uphold what are the laws about takeing geese, ( foxes you need certian caliber rounds as so the same with deer) so can I use an air riffle or say what about using a large net and no guns, there are many ways of taking a goose without a gun but are they legal?? and would i be breaking any laws with hunting the said geese.

As I said I dont know the laws and want to find out what they are before breaking them, words are better than actions

[FGYT]

heres a good place to start

http://www.basc.org.uk/

ATB

Duncan

[slowworm]

For seasons look here: http://www.basc.org.uk//en/departments/game-and-gamekeeping/game-shooting/shooting-seasons.cfm

It would also be worth looking around the BASC site to give you some more info on what's legal etc.

[Bushwhacker]

Get some ferrets and a few nets mate.

[hedgerow pete]

that is what i was planning for the rabbits, nets and ferrets, It just seems to me that as no one patrols the canal banks and one could spend a few hours playing with a ferret that why should i miss an opurtunity , but thats the bit when i get transported to austrailia for 20 years( hummmmm)

as for the geese there are hundreds of them again all un patroled, but since i dont like austrailia I have yet to do any thing about it

the thing is just because it is not patroled i dont want to rish it, I have tried the bsac site but was unable to get anyone or anything concrete in the way to ask and to behave, thats why i was wondering does anyone here know what to do

[mysecretlife]

As other people have said have a look at the BASC web site. I would be carefull about trapping, this is a public place and you may find yourself on the reciving end of an 'anti' hunting member of the public

[decorum]

... who owns the canel side banks not the canels , british water ways or the council or someone else and where do i find out?

I've no idea about the hunting bits but I've asked someone for advice on the ownership question(s) you asked ...

The basics - ownership of one side of the canalside will (usually) be different from the other. The side with no tow path is usually owned by a riparian (??) landowner . The side of the canal that has the tow path is usually owned by either British Waterways or the Environmental Agency.
That might sound useful - unfortunately, without enquiring about each section, there is no hard and fast rule as to whether The E.A, B.W or the landowner owns the hedge and/or bank on the side of the towpath.

Disclaimer: The above info came from someone else - It could be wrong, out of date, or poorly communicated.

[njc110381]

Just a thought, but if you were to approach the local fishing club they could tell you who owns the bank.

[British Red]

, there are many ways of taking a goose without a gun but are they legal?? and would i be breaking any laws with hunting the said geese.


No they are not, and yes you would. Its that simple. All wild birds are protected under the WCA and the legal quarry species are listed under Schedule 2. There is no legal justification for hunting wild birds for food, even under the general licence permitted species (which cover certain geese only outside the closed season).

As a minimum by taking one for the pot on a tow path you would breach the WCA - an imprisonable offence.

Section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 (England & Wales) makes it an offence to discharge a firearm within 50 ft of the centre of a highway having vehicular rights without lawful authority or excuse, if as a result a user of the highway is injured, interrupted or endangered.

To shoot across a footpath or bridleway may constitute a public nuisance or wilful obstruction. There may also be a liability in negligence if it is known that people are on, or likely to be on, the path.


Without permission you would be comitting armed trespass under the Firearms Act 1968.

Short Version
It is illegal to shoot geese for food (if this is the primary reason), it would be impossible to gain any form of legal permission to do so and to do it without is armed trespass.

You would breach any number of laws in this endeavour. It is not sensible to shoot in a built up area, nor is it legal to do so with this as a quarry. You may not go to Australia but it is extremely likely that you will encounter an Armed Response vehicle and then a prison if you tried this without permission (which cannot legally be given for the purposes described)

Red

[peasantchurl]

poaching is illegal but it is NOT unlawful (HUGE difference) as long as you are taking wild game and not some farmers livestock or people's pets your fully entitled to take from the land this way in a common law jurisdiction, using what methods you see fit ie: guns, traps, snares, bow's etc.....now the problem will be other people's and maybe your own perception of legal legislation. It can only be given the force of law if you consent to stand under byelaw of corporation's that are fictional enities trying to get you to contract with them.........let see where this leads

[British Red]

Would you care to explain what you believe the distinction to be pc? It is certainly a criminal act under the WCA to hunt with a bow. It is also an act of criminal armed trespass to use a firearm on land without permission. You will certainly be imprisoned for doing so - with, or without, your consent.

Whatever distinctions exist in your mind, do not exist in law or practical reality

Red

[Adze]

If I'm not mistaken he's suggesting that you need not be bound by statute law in the UK as this applies only to The United Kingdom of Great Britain CORPORATION. There's a little speach you're supposed to give in the court about denying the right of the court to try you as a human being and a freeman upon the land and upon hearing it they're supposed to say something along the lines of "It's a fair cop guv, you're free to leave!"

In reality what happens is they remand you in custody for contempt of court and a big lad will extract you to the cells.

If the big lad isn't big enough, they get another one and both of them take you away. If two of them isn't enough... in short they just get more and more people until you end up in the cells.

Have a Google of TPUC (The People's United Community) there's a fair bit about it on there.

[hedgerow pete]

british red thanks for the advice but you now bring evan more questions , 1 what is wca ?
secondly you go off on one about firearms like many other s below you , who said any thing about fire arms????? i did not, all i asked was can i ferret and net bunnies and what are the rules for killing geese, everyone goes on about the basc but they dont have the information i require so lets try again shall we

I ask here if someone knows the rules and law for hunting bunnies using NETS AND FERRETS on a canal , I also ask is there away WITHOUT FIREARMS, OR SHOTGUNS, BOWS AND ARROWS, MACHINE GUNS, TANKS AND ANTI AIR CRAFT WEAPONS OF ANY SORT to remove geese from the said canal,

and dont forget to stop ranting on about flippin guns

[Adze]

WCA is the Wildlife and Countryside Act (1981)

[hedgerow pete]

thanks for that i was wondering, to many people make the mistack of expecting others know to much

[peasantchurl]

If I'm not mistaken he's suggesting that you need not be bound by statute law in the UK as this applies only to The United Kingdom of Great Britain CORPORATION. There's a little speach you're supposed to give in the court about denying the right of the court to try you as a human being and a freeman upon the land and upon hearing it they're supposed to say something along the lines of "It's a fair cop guv, you're free to leave!"

Have a Google of TPUC (The People's United Community) there's a fair bit about it on there.

yep i'm not bound to Act's / Statues / Byelaws etc basically as long as I don't break the Common Law I'am free to do as I please in Common Law Jurisdictions ie: New Zealand, Canada, Australia......the common wealth countries.

[British Red]

british red thanks for the advice but you now bring evan more questions , 1 what is wca ?
secondly you go off on one about firearms like many other s below you , who said any thing about fire arms????? i did not,

Err yes, you did


I would also like to know about goose hunting rules, season, caliber

Calibre? of what? a ferret?


uphold what are the laws about takeing geese, ( foxes you need certian caliber rounds as so the same with deer) so can I use an air riffle

So, in answer to your question (again)


There is no legal justification for hunting wild birds for food

This is irrespective of the means used - although as regards geese, you would struggle to find any legal method of despatch that does not involve a fiream.

Certain species of wild bird (listed under schedule 2), may be killed for specified reasons (e.g. protection of health or prevention of damage), when acting on behalf of the landowner with their express consent. Taking those birds specifically for food is an offence.

So no, there is no legal way for you to do what you want to do

Clear enough?

Red

[peasantchurl]

If any folks are reading this post and wish to learn the different definitions of Legal & Lawful such as common law jurisdiction, try googling robert menard,or tpuc.org like Adze said. I could be here forever trying to explain to someone who has it set in their mind what law is when its just a body of words of corporations using a language called legalese that is wrote in english but has different definitions hence the reason why there are law dictionaries......but the definition of the word in the dictionary also you requires you to look at the assumptions then look at the implications to find the true definition.

[Adze]

...and to everyone else, don't worry, I've stopped feeding him now ;)

[livefast999]

If any folks are reading this post and wish to learn the different definitions of Legal & Lawful such as common law jurisdiction, try googling robert menard,or tpuc.org like Adze said. I could be here forever trying to explain to someone who has it set in their mind what law is when its just a body of words of corporations using a language called legalese that is wrote in english but has different definitions hence the reason why there are law dictionaries......but the definition of the word in the dictionary also you requires you to look at the assumptions then look at the implications to find the true definition.

Hi there, I have googled robert menard and looked briefly at tpuc.org, but could you explain in laymans terms, how all this works, and how it can be used to our advantage ?

Cheers
Lf

[peasantchurl]

Hi there, I have googled robert menard and looked briefly at tpuc.org, but could you explain in laymans terms, how all this works, and how it can be used to our advantage ?

Cheers
Lf

I'm gonna get a bigger memory card in my camera and make some video's for you bushcraft folk in layman tems then put it on you tube , just because typing all this would take ages.

[Front Room Woodlander]

If you go poaching, dont get caught! Otherwise deep do=do.
Poachers standard practice is well informed, studied, take once and move on. Get caught and the law, however folk preach it, aint on your side.
Some poachers take great pride in acquiring game from public places or named landowners, or so I'm told.

[Front Room Woodlander]

I have a feeling this thread will be locked down by a moderator very soon.

[hedgerow pete]

This whole threadf is getting very messy , so to clear a few points , thanks for the rantings british red a bit full on but very worthy, The whole point of this thread is not to find out what is ilegeal but to find out what IS legeal, twenty years ago I was will to bend/break the laws for a rabbit or two but not today as I am getting to old for it, All I wanted to know is what are the rules on rabbiting on the canals and hunting geese. seems I have hit a very raw nerve amonst a few so , I think this thread should get shut down as some of us are getting a little worked up about a sensible question, many many thanks to every one that has replied to my request, pete

[nuggets]

you could ask the local councils or farmers -who owns what- and if the rabbits are a menace -undermining banking or eating crops etc- offer your services ,free of charge to ferret the rabbits!! Then once you have permission bag as many geese as you can :cool::D

[caliban]

Unless you're trying to be obtuse it seems fairly clear that.

a. You can't hunt wild birds in the UK.

b. You can't hunt rabbits with a firearm.

c. You can't hunt rabbits without the landowners permission.

What's less clear is whether you can hunt rabbits with permission with either a catapult, or an air rifle.

Whether you can do this in a place which is public land.

Whether you can trap rabbits with snares.

Whether you can hunt rabbits with ferrets and nets.

[dookie]

you can legally kill pidgeon ,greysquirels wild female ducks the brown ones with the purple flash but dont take them from park pond, blackbirds, magpies and rooks and you can also legally eat swan if its specifcally breed for the purpose of consumtion and you aint even gota ask her madge.

[Toddy]

Can you provide references for that please ?

cheers,
Toddy

[British Red]

I can provide a link to what you are permitted to do (which certainly does not include blackbirds)

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/Images/gen-L05_tcm6-7669.pdf

[Toddy]

Thanks for the link and the reference BR :)
I freely admit that's the bit that raised concerns for me.

I'm almost at the stage of saying to people on this type of thread, "Prove it", as routine best practice so that everyone's covered, but also so that people become aware of the relevant legalities and where to find them.

Too much heard from a man in a pub, or an old guy with a fishing rod type of information being passed around.

cheers,
Toddy

[Katanic]

Its them roving bands of Parakeet's that im on the look out for:BlueTeamE

[hedgerow pete]

TODDY thanks for that last message, you are the one of the few that has got the idea of the reason why i started this thread, it was not to find out how to poach as i am more than proficcent at that , but how to stay within the laws when out hunting, I started this thread and based it on what i could see, but I have no idea what the rules and regs are, it was then taken over my the likes of many that just started to go off on on ranting away blindly rabbiting on with out any idea of what i wanted to find out


If there was a set of rules that were writen down about how and what with we can enjoy our sports with , it would be great but every thing is so spaced out and hard to find , I evan went up to the local police station and they did not evam know where to start looking, there answer was to get arrested for doing it and then see what the clown prosicusion service comes up with!!!!! alot of help that was

[Ogri the trog]

There is an old view of a single poacher taking one for the pot , in todays market its more like shot guns and hand guns and whole fields of sheep and cows, so one's head is not in the clouds

but what are the modern day rules for the illigeal taking of game, I wish to know what they are so I can be sure not to break them, I would also like to know about goose hunting rules, season, caliber, breed type etc

can anyone help clear away the rumours from the facts??


Forgot to say does anyone know what the rules and ownership are of the canal systems and for the taking of bunnies

HP, the only advice I can come up with is to contact British Waterways and query their policy on rabbit control on their land. I have no idea what their answer might be, but as far as the rules of the forum allow, you'll have to stick by their answer, even if no answer is given as it does not expressly grant any form of permission.

The rules of our land are tightly sewn up in a system of law and the rules of our forum state that we must be seen to obey those laws.

ATB

Ogri the trog

[hedgerow pete]

I did , the reply came back today which is basicly no, The british waters people employ a eco warrior person whos job it is to survey the bank sides and decided which and what stays and goes, so after a very nice chat with the person we came to the agrement that yes rabbits can be hunted but only when and where they are classed as damage causing vermin only and when they are they call in a pest control firm, as for the other pest of crawfish they are free to anyone who wants them just help your selves, the canadia geese question was also asked, the answer was a big no the reason was that we could not find a meathod of capture or killing that did not involve shotguns and as such the risks were to great.

as for the issue of poaching illegaly , we also spoke the answers there was anyone caught would be prosicuted but that means police and the clown prossicusion service which will start another thread of arguments from british red, as for her personal opinion she like most of the british water ways staff are bunnie huggers unless they are under mining a bankside

[Adze]

clown prossicusion service

Free Koko and Mr. Tumble Now!

I so hope that wasn't a typo as it made me LOL :D

[Ogri the trog]

I did , the reply came back today which is basicly no,

Then I'm afraid, that is your answer.

Ogri the trog

[C_Claycomb]

"87. If the thought of something makes me giggle for longer than 15 seconds, I am to assume that I am not allowed to do it."
Skippy's List

[Davey569]

A little more info on the canals for you thanks to my uncle who works for BW. :)

BW own the water.

Most of the towpaths are put down on council land but BW and the local council have come up with an agreement of sorts.
Some towpaths and all canalsides (except those in a public residential area which are property of the council) Will be privately owned.

[British Red]

prossicusion service which will start another thread of arguments from british red, as for her personal opinion she like most of the british water ways staff are bunnie huggers unless they are under mining a bankside

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

Yes of course Pete

She is a he

Who first got a section 1 FAC more than three decades ago and has been hunting ever since with rifles, airguns, shotguns, traps, nets and sundry other ways.

You want to know whats legal. The short answer is "everything is legal unless a law prevents it", so to know what is legal, you have to know what is specifically prohibited by law (illegal). If you don't want to know whats against the law, no-one can help you as there is no reference to tell you what you can do, only what you can't.

By the way the advice that
as for the other pest of crawfish they are free to anyone who wants them just help your selves is also incorrect.

However, as you don't want advice on specific laws and what they do cover, I'll leave you to take your chances

Red

[hedgerow pete]

no that was not a typo error they are the clown prossicution service, I also see that british red is back on his soap box again, be carefull mate thats pretty high up thier, ha ha ha,

the lady was telling me that it is standard practise to chop most trees back if they are within 2 metres of the canal bank but most of the rest is left as a natural wild life avenue, standard to keep trees trimmed but not to harvest as a product which i thought was strange, bit of a missed opportunity myself .

as for british red and his usual soap box dribble as ever wrong end of the stick, so i will try again to get the message over, I am not allowed to hunt bunnies on the canal bank side, ( it does not belong to the council where i am , dont know about the rest ) any form of pest has to be removed via a pest control company , which counts me out which is a shame realy but thats the way it goes, the geese are a no no unless they land in my garden and commit suicide them selves or i get someone else to run them over with a car but i have to be quick to collect them neither of which i can see happening, the crawfish are on a help your self policy at british water ways aslong as you only collect american signal and none of the english, she has evan suggested a few spots out of brum that are completly infestted and thay have an active trapping policy going,


lastly british red you realy are a one at times , i love the way you try a shout people down throwing your wieght around and showing every one how one can urinate up wards, very impressive. I have also been hunting for over 30 years and i also used to have a selection of fire arms in class 1,4,and 7, i am also militry trained and can do wonderfull things with rounds over and above 7.62 upto 20mm I have shot most forms of game up to and including HUMANS ( the army is good like that) neither of which has any thing to do with a simple question that i asked about what is legal or not , I wanted the question answered before i committed a crime not after wards, I realy do not like the bully boy thuggery that you imposed on me or the others having a simple conversation, I suggest that next time you try connecting the brain rather than the mouth next time you try to answer someones question.

love lots hedgerow xxxxx

[oscari]

Just to put my view forward.
The term poaching means the illegal taking of game or other creatures not belonging to you or which you do not have permission to take from the owner.So basically if you don't own it or have the permission of those who do ,then you can't take them.

[EdS]

Crayfish - American signal are only legal to take if:

1) trapping - you hold and EA permit to do so and land owners permission. It is getting very difficult to get a permit due to pockets of native crayfish and the inceasing spread of otters.

2) rod and line - with rod licence and permission to "fish" there. Remember a lot of canal fishing is in essence private

Plus would you want to eat something that dines on the detritus of West Midlands canal?

[Bushwhacker]

You might be better off with forgetting about dealing with British Waterways, council, whatever and concentrating on the landowners t'other side of the hedge. I'll bet you'll get more sense out of them and will be able to talk face to face.