View Full Version : Romance or Madness (of The Long Distance Defender Owner)?
Klenchblaize
26-01-2010, 08:50
OK, so many of us love our Land-Rovers for their close association with the great outdoors. But, and its a BIG but, are the iconic lines of the Defender and what they 'say' about their owners sufficient compensation for our madness that is acceptance of a manufacturing process that, even in the 21st century, cannot address the basics of sustainability that is to ensure meaningful rust protection of both the chassis and key transmission components? Then there is the poor workmanship at production stage that has far more to do with water ingress problems than the generous door gaps that are required to permit flexing/articulation of vehicle when off road but lets not go there!
As British Red observed so succinctly why should you have to take a NEW Defender to a specialist under body treatment plant as your 1st stop after leaving the showroom??
For what its worth I've just written to Landrover UK about this very point and with a nice photograph that proves that my rear crossmember was painted after a nice base coat of rust had set in!!
We shall see.
Cheers
helixpteron
28-01-2010, 17:43
Its not by accident that manufacturers like Toyota and Nissan have attracted former devout Land and Range Rover owners.
Quality of components and manufacture is something which affects the owner, invariably outside of the warranty period.
Having driven and worked on Land Rovers, I would never own one, even as a gift.
Be interesting to see the response to your letter.
I'm a die hard LR fan but I'd not buy a new one.
Laurentius
28-01-2010, 21:03
Madness I am afraid, I have been cured now I drive a Pajero. (no jokes in Spanish please)
For what it's worth I never considered anything but with coil springs be a true land rover anyway, and once you decamp over to something like a disco, then you might as well buy Japanese.
I will say something for Mitsubishi, it may not have the rugged individualism of a classic landie, and may not have the edge on off road travel (but what does other than a Unimog anyway?) but my 18 year old Paj is a damn sight more reliable than an equivalently aged landie would be.
That being said if I had bottomless pockets, I would still chose a landie and a leaf sprung one at that :)
helixpteron
28-01-2010, 21:17
I still think that the best 'Off Road Vehicle' is a helicopter! http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/happy0054.gif
mayobushcraft
29-01-2010, 20:26
Nothing beats a Jeep Wrangler for comfort and off road ability. Landies are great off road but you need deep pockets. And after a few hours on the road you are worn out.
the first vehicle i had to recover offroad was a landrover, didnt like them before then and still dont. they rust to quickly, handle like a boat, are unreliable and cost far to much for what you get. just to get one capable offroad will, imho, cost upwards of 10grand. however a good deal of the general public do seem to wear rose tinted specs as far as landies go which i put down to the 'british motor' aspectand of course the now much loved and iconic v8 engine (shame it was an american/gm design). a romantic attitude prehaps, definately a touch of lunicy though. now hiluxs and landcruisers are superb. ive had a hilux pickup and would rather give both my gentlemans plums up for soup making to get it back than spend 30grand on a landie
lee
Laurentius
30-01-2010, 13:55
All being said and done though a classic landie does have a certain something about it in the same way that the formula one cars of Stirling Moss's day have when compared to today's formula 1.
Though comparing a landie to formula 1 has to be the wierdest comparison I have ever made, I was lucky to exceed 50 mph in mine, even the lambretta scooter I once owned could do better than that.
I think everyone is missing something here....
Land Rovers, S1/2/2A/3/90/110/Defenders have pretty much over the last 60 years been profitable vehicles to make. Though labour intensive, they sell for a small premium over "equivalent" Japanese vehicles and in the UK, this is really pickups (You cannot compare a Pajero, Landcruiser etc to a Utility Land Rover as their competitor is a Discovery/Range Rover i.e. they are not utility vehicles).
There are varied reasons why Land Rovers sell very well, from endless customisation possibilities (MOD/Utility companies) to Foresty, Farmworkers etc who depend on their ability, plus those who like the iconic image of the vehicles. Another reason they sell very well, is the extremely high residuals. These owners know they can buy and run one, and at the end of the period of ownership they will sell them on for a very high premium than if they had bought a pickup. Total cost of sale is therefore less.
In many cases this is a business or financial decision on their part and patently justified by the prices paid for used Defenders these days.
I for one would rather take the "percieved" reliability risk of a 110 or 130 pickup over a Toyota, knowing that in five or even 10 years i will receive a healthy part of the initial outlay when i sell it. This would be a business decision rather that a passionate one.
Land Rover as a company really should look after their Defender customers better, but with a healthy profit margin and sales pipeline, why would they?
I wouldn't buy a new one, but i run an older (1996) 110CSW that for its years is extremely reliable and i won't be changing anytime soon - OK thats a slightly passionate statement, but even taking the above into account, the amount i will lose in depreciation will be small.
And for anyone who thinks i'm anti-Japanese, not so. We have had Subarus over the years and all were great, except the Outback i had, which at 4 years old suffered engine failure and a £2.5K bill came my way! So it's not just LR, any company can get it wrong.
adderrustler
01-02-2010, 12:11
bang on what people are missing is that landrovers are a utility vehicle, not some attempt at making a comfy big car usable off road. thats why there are rangerovers etc.
landrovers are cheap on parts if you know where to go.
also if they are serviced and looked after then they are as reliable as anything else, there component parts are stronger by far, the MOD'S use and re-use over the years has proved this time and time again, every now and then they will change but then they go back to landie's. if you want comfort with some off road capability then buy a range rover or a jap. if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.
most of the japs si have seen havent even had an oil change in 3-4 years.
Defenders / series were not designed for motorway journeys they are workhorses.
Klenchblaize
01-02-2010, 13:34
All very true but that doesn't make it acceptable for a mil-spec chassis and drive components to be alive with rust when leaving the factory and all but for a ha’porth of tar or pride in workmanship. The lack thereof being the message conveyed when encountering such a easy win defect along with those legendary leaks than CAN be cured but with far less hassle whilst still on the assembly line.
Cheers
jungle_re
01-02-2010, 14:20
bang on what people are missing is that landrovers are a utility vehicle, not some attempt at making a comfy big car usable off road. thats why there are rangerovers etc.
landrovers are cheap on parts if you know where to go.
also if they are serviced and looked after then they are as reliable as anything else, there component parts are stronger by far, the MOD'S use and re-use over the years has proved this time and time again, every now and then they will change but then they go back to landie's. if you want comfort with some off road capability then buy a range rover or a jap. if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.
most of the japs si have seen havent even had an oil change in 3-4 years.
Defenders / series were not designed for motorway journeys they are workhorses.
I never understand the military connection as most who have had to drive em will tell you howw unreliable they are and the vast majority of VM's will only offer you profanities if you mention land rover. That said when they did work they worked well off road though the 90's and 110's i found to be better offroad than the replacement wolfs
All said and done they look the S*te and thats what sell i reckon most of the time nowaday the design epitimises ruggedness even if it doesnt acheive it
Laurentius
01-02-2010, 20:10
I think everyone is missing something here....
Land Rovers, S1/2/2A/3/90/110/Defenders have pretty much over the last 60 years been profitable vehicles to make. Though labour intensive, they sell for a small premium over "equivalent" Japanese vehicles and in the UK, this is really pickups (You cannot compare a Pajero, Landcruiser etc to a Utility Land Rover as their competitor is a Discovery/Range Rover i.e. they are not utility vehicles). .
I think 86" has a point there, maybe there is too much conversation at cross purposes on this thread.
When I talk about my experience of Land Rover I talk about driving a 30 year old vehicle, much used and abused, so you can't expect that to even compare with a relatively recent Defender.
Certainly my youthful 18 year old Paj is not in the same category, it has slightly less ground clearance, and there is not as much room inside for the proverbial kitchen sink, and I do not think the chassis is quite as rugged, but when the tin worm sets in, you can't really call a Landie chassis "rugged" can you?
That said there really was no excuse for such features in the older landies as heaters that don't warm anything up, seats no better than in the nineteen forties, doors that don't fit.
The Landie was also chronically underpowered, my Paj is much more economical, I suspect more so than an equivalent TD engine would have been as a replacement in my Landie.
When comparing the Paj I really should be comparing it with road cars, like the old Volvo Estates I used to thing they were big until I parked my Paj next to one. I've driven all sorts over the years and I have to say that for it's age there is a lot less wrong with the Paj than there would be for an equivalent Landie.
Nobody get me wrong, I am still in love with Landies, but they are something of an aquired taste I think.
The Land Rover is now a rare sight in the Australian Outback as it is no longer considered reliable enough or affordable enough by most people. Toyota's, on the other hand, are everywhere, closely followed by Nissan's, Mitsubishi's and several other Japanese cars.
The Land Rover is now a rare sight in the Australian Outback as it is no longer considered reliable enough or affordable enough by most people. Toyota's, on the other hand, are everywhere, closely followed by Nissan's, Mitsubishi's and several other Japanese cars.
But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)
But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)
That is because in the 60s and 70s thats all they had in oz but once they got
the japanese inports landys bad build quality and unreliabilaty had no chance.
The Toyota landcruiser has just been voted most reliable 4x4 and has been tested in the Australian outback not in Bradford or Dorset.
You trust your life with a vehicle in the outback .
But interesting that Les Hiddins always had a Land Rover 110... ;-)
...and a film crew in Toyota's (probably).
That is because in the 60s and 70s thats all they had in oz but once they got
the japanese inports landys bad build quality and unreliabilaty had no chance.
110's only came out in 1983.. It was really the exchange rate that was the death knell for Land Rover in Oz.
110's only came out in 1983.. It was really the exchange rate that was the death knell for Land Rover in Oz.
Its like all army gear the cheapest bidder gets it thats why the oz army used
landrovers.
As for the exchange rate killeng them in oz mmmmmmmm i think from the
guys i have spoken to in the outback the reliability problems has not helped
any.
British Red
06-02-2010, 15:04
You see I'm with Klenchblaize about this I cannot rencile these statements:
landrovers are a utility vehicle
if you want a vehicle thats designed to be off road first then a road vehicle buy a defender.
with
my rear crossmember was painted after a nice base coat of rust had set in
Utility vehicles need to be MORE corrosion resistant and have BETTER build quality than an occasional off roader. After having LRs back to the "series" days I'm hardly inexperienced with them, and, the build quality is just plain rubbish.
To me the acid test is what people who need to be offroad professionally drive. Most farmers, gamekeepers, fencers etc. I know drive jap trucks for utility now. Things like a heater that works do matter to them when they are out in their vehicle for 12 hours at a time as does the fact that they cannot waste time constantly fixing and tinkering with the latest thing to fall off.
I don't deny the off road capability of the LR but that doesn't alter the fact that to be good, it has to be consistently good and not keep needing fixing. Nor should it already be corroded when driven off the forecourt.
Why they just don't invest some time in proper anti corrosion treatments and decent QC escapes me. Its a great design, constructed badly with lack of care and lack of thought.
If far eastern imports can offer 7 year warranties now, why can't LR? Because the bills would bankrupt them!
Red
The Army LRs have had a galvanised chassis for years. If LR had the common sense to galvanise all chassis (and other parts for that matter) or just not make them from mild steel they would keep a LOT more customers. I love Landies, I passed my test in a 90 (1/2 tonner) after learning in that and a 101 FC (One tonner). My last 4x4?- a Pajero! It was 18 years onld when I decided to let it go. To date, it was the best motor I've ever had.
Nothing beats a Jeep Wrangler for comfort and off road ability. Landies are great off road but you need deep pockets. And after a few hours on the road you are worn out.
Hear hear!:You_Rock_ :drive: :You_Rock_
I find my Defender surprisingly comfortable and capable on road and great fun off and it is the last car I woudl ever sell. It's not in my view a primary family car, but as a spare fun car it's great.
I must say I think Land Rover dealers are hopeless and they are the biggest problem when it comes to Defenders, not the cars themselves (I will be trying out my fourth for my next service). When I first went into the franchised dealership in Perth and told them I wanted a nearly new Defender they tried to sell me a new Freelander (before the half-decent new model I should add)........I am still struggling to find a dealer, either franchised or independent who can do what I asked for, do a decent job at a decent price and want my business.
Highlights so far include :
- Perth LR dealer charing me £90 for "trying " for an hour unsuccessfully to plug their diagnostic computer into my Defender
- Stirling LR dealer refusing to collect and drop off my Defender even though I was paying top dollar for the service
- Well known Perthshire independent re-powder-coating parts on my Defender so badly they rusted to death in 12 months
- Well known Perthshire independent carrying out a very expensive 72K service when it had already been done and marked up in the service book
I've got a new dealer I'm going to try for the next service. Hope springs eternal
NS
Klenchblaize
09-02-2010, 12:09
Keep those Land Rover horror stories coming please!
I have concluded that my decision to purchase a Defender was based wholly on aesthetics (story of my life really) so in one sense this is my fault but I see no reason not to at least try and embarrass Land Rover UK in pursuit of my plea for fair play!
Cheers
Y
To me the acid test is what people who need to be offroad professionally drive. Most farmers, gamekeepers, fencers etc. I know drive jap trucks for utility now. Things like a heater that works do matter to them when they are out in their vehicle for 12 hours at a time as does the fact that they cannot waste time constantly fixing and tinkering with the latest thing to fall off.
Most of the farmers in the Dales still drive LR (often reluctantly) - or quads - as the Jap stuff just doesn't do the job. The break like LR but are damned expensive to repair.
The other problem with alot of Jap motors is that they are to wide for many of the stone gate post - I knowe several where a Hilux will not fit or will tear the wheel arches off but a Defender will fit easily.
Agreed though at £20k plus for a "utility" vehicle you want better build quality and galvanising etc..
Slightly OT but since Iveco bought Santana out andthey are defo worth a look for a utility vehicle - though not sure how many they are bringing in to the UK
http://www.massif.iveco.com/?lang=en
Firstly hello to all.
Having now owned 3 Defenders (My current a Td5 Pickup) and done over 300,000 miles in them, the total of the faulty parts I have had in this time has been:
1. 3 rear mud flaps
2. Two bulbs
3. And then the usual bits that get changed on a service.
I have suffered with one breakdown, this was when I filled it with petrol when I as tired, I was in France and got confused :o
From my experience I would hardly call this an unreliable vehicle!
I am also not sure what people are reffering to as build quality? It's basically a truck, what exactly are you expecting?
Klenchblaize
09-02-2010, 19:36
I am also not sure what people are reffering to as build quality? It's basically a truck, what exactly are you expecting?
Not having to "take a NEW Defender to a specialist under body treatment plant as your 1st stop after leaving the showroom" would be a start.
:deadhorse:
Cheers!
dr jones
09-02-2010, 19:38
Well i have to to say im bias as i grew with and learnt to drive in a series landy , and ive bought one for myself last week . i agree that theyre not perfect or super reliable or cheep to run but there is a lot of nostalgia for me . i dont think theyre worthy of the slating some are giving them , they are no worse than owning a morris minor or and old beetle.The other reason i opted for one was i got fed up of having to take my wifes car to the garage to be "diagnosed " . At least with the landy i can fix things with the tools ive got. The fans may be moving over to the japanese trucks now , but it makes me smile to think that most of the roads /trails in far flung corners of the globe were conquered and mapped with the help of landrovers .
Not having to "take a NEW Defender to a specialist under body treatment plant as your 1st stop after leaving the showroom" would be a start.
:deadhorse:
Cheers!
I bought two new ones and 03 and an 06, the one I have now is second hand, an 04. None of mine have rust and I didn't kleentec them or whatever it's called.
I imagine if I had bought a new one like you and it's rusty underneath I wouldn't be too impressed. Have you been onto any Landy forums to see if this is a known issue with the new ones? I assume by new you are talking about the one with the tranny engine and not the TD5?
Klenchblaize
10-02-2010, 09:30
No, its a TD5 bought new in late 2005. Keeping on top of the rust has been a constant battle from day one. This cannot be right.
Happy to accept any amount of discomfort and inconvenience inherent in the design of the Defender but draw the line in the matter of a manufacturing process that cannot adequately seal a bright metal chassis and with something that does not dissolve into rust within weeks of leaving the showroom.
The dealership agreed to waxoil it under warranty but as I suspected they ignored the key component of this undertaking if to be meaningful that is the prepwork required to remove surface rust before applying the gunk.
The latest concern is that there has been a golden bloom behind the rear crossmember paint/coating for some time and has now revealed itself in full as rust that could have only been there when the chassis was coated!
Land Rover UK's so-called Customer Relationship Centre have replied to my formal communiqué but have avoided making any comment on the key concern with heavy reference to the obvious that is the vehicle is now out of warranty.
You can be sure though that Klench will not let them off the hook that easily without a fight!
Cheers
Good luck with your challenge!
I think you may have a "dud".... The chassis on my 14 year old 110 is still excellent. The rear crossmember is just starting to rust. It doesn't look like its had anything on it since it left the factory.
Still, you could always sell it, recovering a huge portion of your initial outlay, and buy something else?
I doubt it will have lost much value.
I agree it does sound like a dud. Not a good experience for you though all the same. Good luck with customer services I know if I was in your position I would making a PITA of myself.
Landy_Dom
10-02-2010, 17:51
I've run many many landies over the years - always old tired dogs, and I think a theme is emerging here - they will last - some of mine were forty years old! - but you have to put in a little work. "ordinary" car buyers do not understand this, and things like waxoyling the chassis are seen (probably quite rightly) as a PITA. If you put in a little preventative maintenance and fix things yourself (simple on an old landie) then they are dirt cheap to own and run.
If land rover galvanised chassis / door frames / bulkheads / body cappins etc then they'd be absolutely phonomenal (but perhaps they's never sell another new one????)
Dom.
Klenchblaize
10-02-2010, 18:10
Yep, but for now they must remain phenomenally rusty!
Cheers
Landy_Dom
10-02-2010, 18:16
unless you slavishly waxoyl them, yeah :(
My long term plan is to rebuild an old one on galv chassis etc - best of all worlds
Dom.
unless you slavishly waxoyl them, yeah :(
My long term plan is to rebuild an old one on galv chassis etc - best of all worlds
Dom.
Do it! As per my handle, i used to have a not very original 86" Series One that i completely rebuilt on a galvanised chassis, It has a galvanised bulkhead too... a 5 main bearing 2.25 petrol, Synchro box, pendulum pedals, parrots and lots of other user friendly goodies. Mainly S3 running gear.
It was superb we went everywhere in it, but the onset of family life left it unused, so i sold it on. I wish to this day i hadn't, but when the boys get older i can see myself doing it all again to an early Ninety or something.
This is one instance where Land Rovers don't really have any peers... total and complete rebuildability, at very reasonable cost. My own 110 will be getting this treatment eventually, because it will be cheaper than buying a newer car, and it will last even longer.
Toyota pick ups and other japanese utility vehicles maybe reliable and last well, but they have a point in their life at maybe 12-14 years old when they are realistically worthless. So they will be scrapped. Compare that to your average Land Rover when at 12 years old are probably worth at least 30-40% of their purchase price and have a long future in front of them. We sold our original 90TD CSW for £4500, when it was 21 years old. The original purchase receipt was for just over £10K!
I'm often intrigued by the total slating Land Rovers get from all and sundry, but there is a question i often pose to them..... "if Land Rovers were so unreliable and rubbish, why are there so many old ones happily running around??"
I'm with Klenchblaize with that new ones shouldn't be rusty at only 4 years old. This is not on, but i'm always mystified as to why the consensus is that "Land Rovers are rubbish" when in reality, the evidence says otherwise?
I'm often intrigued by the total slating Land Rovers get from all and sundry
It's jealousy ;)
The fans may be moving over to the japanese trucks now , but it makes me smile to think that most of the roads /trails in far flung corners of the globe were conquered and mapped with the help of landrovers .
As they say Landrover discovered Africa Toyota conquered it.
Says it all rearlly.
As they say Landrover discovered Africa Toyota conquered it.
Says it all rearlly.
Just dependson where you go - plenty of Africa where Nissan Patrols are teh car of choise. Its mostly down to marketing and dealer support - Lr can not even do that in the UK.
Other bits the Series 3 is the bush car of choise. Certainly in some parts with limited/ very rough roads that damage any car. Where my mate was the terrain damaged the cars - repair/rebuilds rapidly required even on new cars. Consensu was S3 or FJ40 (though rare) where the ones to go for as it'll be physically broken and rattled to death before "reliability" is an issue. You had to be able to field mend with 3 spanners, hammer , screwdrive , piece of wire and gaffa tape.
Unless of course you've got the full backing of UN etc or modern western town with a full modern workshop.
Aristotle
10-08-2010, 20:18
This is what people associate with Land Rovers:
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_British_Forces_Oper ation_Telic/optelic104.jpg
This is what people associate with Toyota:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/11/taliban_2.jpg
Which is more effective?............
Get a Ssangyong Musso - all panels zinc-coated from new, Merc mechanicals, huge interior and they are practically free nowadays!
British Red
10-08-2010, 20:57
This is what people associate with Land Rovers:
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_British_Forces_Oper ation_Telic/optelic104.jpg
This is what people associate with Toyota:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/11/taliban_2.jpg
Which is more effective?............
Well, on the evidence that one appears to need to be delivered by helicopter, and even then the doors fell off, whereas the other appears to have been driven into situ and be an unmodified commercially available vehicle that does not need ridiculous amounts of logistical support then
"The car in front....is a Toyota"
"The car in front....is a Toyota"
Just as well, because when its throttle sticks open, and the brakes fail, that's where you'd want it to be.
Interesting this argument. Can I just add a few things I know about and have happened to Landies and the other options? I would like to point out that I have bever owned or driven a 4x4 so my opinion doesn't matter but the storied following did happen.
1) A few years ago a relative (who will remain un-named) was stuck on the beach with the tide coming in. She was in her BF's top of the range fully specced Mitsubishi Shogun. From what I understand it was about 3 months old and was the best version they did at that time. Winches etc included. It got stuck so he called the local Mitsubishi dealership. They said no probs we will be round in 10 minutes to fish you out. What did they bring? A 6 year old close to bottom or range /. base model Landie without and winches or additions. They drove it round then attached the guy's tow line to it and drove off the beach dragging the shogun through the now rising sea level and further up the beach the soft, dry sand and back onto the road.
2) A former colleague lived in S Africa and later went back. They always had a Hilux as did most of the people they knew. The reason why was that the landies had poor comfort and when off road or on the minor roads out there were next to rubbish according to them. Landies were not well regarded.
3) I know of a few people who curse their landie on the road but rate them off it highly. One guy had a 1956 former army landie with extended fuel tanks. It was bombproof reliability he says. Put it this way he rarely had to do much work on it and if he did could do it himself. Wish that was true of my 2002 astra!
4) My Dad worked on highways (new build) as a consultant engineer. He was alwaays given as part of the contract a brand new Landie. Sometimes the double cab one but always a good spec. He always said the reason was that they were the best vehicle for a road site. One saturday he had to check a road site where a cuting was done. Involved driving up a 45 degree slope on the side of a cutting cliff that had a vertical drop and cliff either side of the track (which was only a little bit wider than the landie). Anyway since it was raining heavily the track of sorts we were driving up was covered in mud. In fact it was a cross betwween mud and a river. It was going over the bonnet abouthalf way up. Still at no point did the landie appear troubled by it. Even when we stopped so my Dadd could look at something diid it have any trouble. Just started off again and got us out of it. Now anything that can do that IMHO is not a bad vehicle.
5) My Dad later on had a broken window on another landie on another road site many years later. H&S rules meant he couldn't use it. The contractors didn't have any other landie for him so he was given (against his judgement and will) a Hilux pickup. Still he drove it around waiting for a new landie which he later turned down. He was a die-hard landie driver for work purposes (hated in road so rarely drove it on road). In his opinion the hilux was much better off road than any landie he had driven. It was no better on road unless you had a few hundredweight of earth in the back. This is how he drove it. With the extra weight in the back he said it kind of handled like a car on road and the off road performance wasn't used.
Anyway, as you can see from these stories and opinions of people who's opinions I value and who's experience of off road driving is from a working life of doing it, I have no conclusive opinion as to which is best. My only conclussion is thata landie can be very good and can be bad as can the other options. I do think if you want a 4x4 get one and leve the soft roaders behind. Also if it has the bells and whistles it still might not do the business if the most important extra is not up to the job. That most important ezxtra is a driver who can drive it in the conditions that they were made for.
One more thing, in SA the former work colleague said that theehilux or amazon or mistubushis are more popular out there and that is they can come with air conditioning and cruise control for road. not sure how accurate this is but they kind of were telling me that it was the comfort as well as handling that won the foreign cars their favour.
for my sins, i work for a landrover dealer(don't stone me just yet), and have obviously seen a few pass through the doors, in my experience, general reliability is comparable to most other cars as capable, the problem is that there are just some landrovers that are complete pups(yes definately more than the japs!)! if you get a good one, it will serve you well for years to come, but, if you get a pup, it will be a money pit, and every thing you fix will just lead to more problems, age seems to have no bearing on this. so if you need the abilities of a landrover, check the history, if it's had nothing major go wrong, it's prob a goodun, also, strangley, if they're used of road, they seem to leak less, don't know why.
demographic
15-08-2010, 23:24
This is what people associate with Land Rovers:
http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/albums/Gulf_War_2_British_Forces_Oper ation_Telic/optelic104.jpg
This is what people associate with Toyota:
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/11/taliban_2.jpg
Which is more effective?............
Currently?
Looks like the Toyota doesn't need as much regular maintenance and runs better.
I wouldn't have a modern Land Rover given unless I could flog it.
One more thing, in SA the former work colleague said that theehilux or amazon or mistubushis are more popular out there and that is they can come with air conditioning and cruise control for road. not sure how accurate this is but they kind of were telling me that it was the comfort as well as handling that won the foreign cars their favour.
Chatting with colleagues when I was last in Jo'burg, I mentioned my LR addiction (have had 90, SII, 110, SI, 127, currently eyeing up a new 90). They laughed their a*ses off. Made it clear that in their opinions if you entrusted your life to something with a LR's reliability then you're going to end up dead - not out in the bush (any mug can get himself killed there by poor preparation), but shot by the side of the road when it packs up on an urban highway. That's a country where reliability is everything...
If land rover galvanised chassis / door frames / bulkheads / body cappins etc then they'd be absolutely phonomenal (but perhaps they's never sell another new one????)
Dom.
Indeed - but they don't - all three Landies I had needed their doors replaced and on a Station Wagon that's a lot of money, even using second-hand ones. The bulkheads went as well and the last one I had really needed a new chassis and that one was only 12 years old at the time. They all had gear-box problems at about 90,000 miles and the all (V8's) had cam problems.
They all leaked, rattled and required constant fettling and fiddling. And I miss all of them.
Mike.
Contrary to popular belief LR'S are no better than any other 4x4 of road and bomb proof i dont think so.
The Landrover thing is inexplicable to me. I am currently driving a 59 plate 110 hardtop for work. I curse its gearbox and clutch daily, I get swollen knees from pushing the pedals while I do yet another 7 point turn, my ears start to ring if I push it above fifty, I rant at the imbecile designer who put the window handle just in front of your shin. I watch as this less than one year old vehicle corrodes before my eyes, and am amazed to see the places where they have had to leave out some of the rivets because the bodywork doesn't fit together properly.
Yet, inexplicably, I love it. I know that when I have to give it back I will be choked.
Point it off the road and onto the mud to do a job of work and it just goes and does it. I have towed out broken and stuck jap pick-ups from the job site and can count on the Landy to happily drag a few tonnes of trailer to places where it is hard going to even walk.
Would I buy one? Yes, tomorrow; the older the better. Would I rely on one as my only wheels? Never.
Z
polecat paul
29-09-2010, 11:22
Always driven Landrovers in my book you cant beat them , my wife drives a Freelander 2 (her 2nd one) and mines a 110 crewcab , also have a 101 ambulance and a series 2 , 3 x series 3 and a 90 ..........change to jap crap.....not a chance!!
Always driven Landrovers in my book you cant beat them , my wife drives a Freelander 2 (her 2nd one) and mines a 110 crewcab , also have a 101 ambulance and a series 2 , 3 x series 3 and a 90 ..........change to jap crap.....not a chance!!
Which is fine in the uk were if you break down the rac or aa can get to you anywhere . But when your life depends on it you would
be a fool to use anything else than Jap crap.
British Red
29-09-2010, 13:24
Exactly. They are a hobby car for enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that
No you wouldn't... you'd be a fool to use anything which has been under maintained. That includes plastic fantastic soluble and disposable pretend 4x4's made in Japan.
Actually that is one thing you can say in favour of japanese 4x4's... the plastic bits and alloy engines don't rust much.
Landrovers used to be built in the UK, the chassis made from rustproof Birmabright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birmabright).
When Ford took over after British Leyland and Jaguar, manufacturing was moved to Brazil, they are now owned by the Indian Tata Motors and components still made in Brazil.
75% of British made Landrovers are still in use, allegedly!
The British Army favored the all mechanical 2.5 litre 4-cylinder 300TDi, Tata stopped the production of this in 2007.
British Red
29-09-2010, 13:56
75% of British made Landrovers are still in use
But remember 25% did arrive at their destination :D
polecat paul
29-09-2010, 14:50
Which is fine in the uk were if you break down the rac or aa can get to you anywhere . But when your life depends on it you would
be a fool to use anything else than Jap crap.
Well i have been twice to Morroco in the 110 and no problems a return journey of 2,200miles each time , so i stick by my original thought of Jap crap!
British Red
29-09-2010, 15:02
I'll take Jap technology over Indian owned, sweat shop made, British badged any day! I've had both and run both for decades. I got bored with cars where rust proofing is an after market add on
polecat paul
29-09-2010, 15:08
I'll take Jap technology over Indian owned, sweat shop made, British badged any day! I've had both and run both for decades. I got bored with cars where rust proofing is an after market add on
Still made in this country at the moment , Freelander 2 will start to be made over in India at the end of this year!
British Red
29-09-2010, 15:30
I think the term you are looking for is "assembled" in this country
i think a lot of the time it is down to tires. most jap 4x4s are now covered in hideous chavy chrome bits and are fashionable? :yuck: these have rubbish tires without heavy treads on and are driven by morons who when trying to drive off road have no clue.
also what makes me livid is that the police in my area have a 110 defender with ROAD TIRES on it!!! even a land rover will be useless off road with these! why they have a defender is beyond me because lets face it, almost any car can pull away from a defender.
good to see the police aren’t wasting out taxes ay?:)
i think people are short sighted when looking for 4x4s. if you actually need to go off road as part of your job why stop at land rover? there are others, a tree surgeon i work for has a steyr puch pinzgauer which is far better than a land rover and is reliable. also there is the volvo C303 or C202.
the pinzgauer like a defender isn't what you would call road freindly, it is very noisy, bad on fuel, slow and a bouncy ride but if your serious about off roading you should put up with this and stop moaning!
pete
Intertidal
29-09-2010, 17:30
I'm another that can't kick the Landy habit.
First car I owned was a 1977 Series 3 diesel 88".
Bought a 110 300TDi several years ago but SWMBO talked me into changing it for a 1998 Disco which she later rolled (don't ask !)
Now on another 300TDi 110 hardtop (wish I'd never PXed the first one).
All of these 300TDi engined landies have been totally reliable in that they've never broken down, but, its not cheap to keep on top of the maintenance to keep 'em running - but thats half the fun!
Noisy, uncomfortable, leaky, spider-ridden money pits.
And I love it!
Nick
Laurentius
29-09-2010, 19:51
Why stop at a Pinzgauer, why not go the whole hog and get a Unimog, or a New Holland Tractor, or a Caterpillar, all of which will outperform a Landie in the off road stakes.
Me I'll stick to my Mk1 Pajero for now while I can still get spares, you may not be able to take the body apart like a Meccano set, but you can still use duct tape to repair the wings and pass an MOT.
This made me laugh earlier and I think it sums up the situation nicely...
I drove to Booths, a northern supermarket best selection of bottled beer I've ever seen) and bought myself 16 x 500ml bottles of real ale for £16. As I was paying I noticed a bloke with a proper turbo mullet, muscle shirt and tracksuit bottoms barely containing his 45 year old paunch, gold medallion nestling in the chest wig, 2 bottles of schweppes lemonade and a bottle of cinzano rosso under his arm, on his way out of the store.
Have a guess what he was driving...
Why stop at a Pinzgauer, why not go the whole hog and get a Unimog, or a New Holland Tractor, or a Caterpillar, all of which will outperform a Landie in the off road stakes
Because they cost £60k? Secondhand...
...not to mention that they cost nearly as much to service as a plastic disposable Japanese thing.
Intertidal
29-09-2010, 21:15
I drove to Booths, a northern supermarket best selection of bottled beer I've ever seen) and bought myself 16 x 500ml bottles of real ale for £16.
Ah Booths!
Was in Booths Ulverston store last week before heading home to Cornwall. Loaded up with 3 crates of various ales at £1 per bottle. Brilliant store - wish we had one down here!
Nick
Next time you're there gimme a ring... I'm only 5 minutes from it.
This, BTW, was spotted at B&Q in Barrow-in-Furness earlier this year...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/FastNA2/IMAG0150.jpg
...Mmmm... tasteful ;)
Just to guage interest, i have a load of spares from my last landy, 110csw 200tdi, there all britpart bits, would any body be interested, if so ill sort them out and do a proper list for a sales post, but it would probably be buyer collects,
Nice one southey... that's probably the funniest reply to this thread ;) Kudos mate :D
British Red
29-09-2010, 22:56
Booths is the best supermarket in the UK - by far.
I speak as an ex senior manager of Tesco.
Red
Well i have been twice to Morroco in the 110 and no problems a return journey of 2,200miles each time , so i stick by my original thought of Jap crap!
Interesting i did a trip on the mainland last year in my landcruiser 16000 km checkmate.
Swagman
Interesting i did a trip on the mainland last year in my landcruiser 16000 km checkmate.
The issue is in the UK Toyota AFAIK didn't / doesn't sell 70 series Landcruiser. I'm not sure if they even had 40 series or 60 or 80 series cruisers. If they had a lot of the 'Plastic Jap rubbish' comments probably wouldn't be made...
In Aussie and here in NZ the Landcruiser in all of it's variants along with the Hilux, 4 Runner / Surf and the Nissan Patrol etc pretty much are the best 4WD's.
70 series cruisers are pretty much bullet proof and the new V8 versions are very good indeed. Pretty much all 70 series are as tough as a Landrover as capable off road as a Landrover.
If I was back in the UK the pain of Landrover ownership is offset by lots of 'specialists' for servicing and repairs / parts.
Here in NZ that network is pretty much non existant. So it makes a lot more sense to have a vehicle that can get support. So it's Toyota, Nissan, Mitsi...
Nice one southey... that's probably the funniest reply to this thread ;) Kudos mate :D
Cool, and i wasnt even trying, there all brand new, i think ll do it anyway,
fast but dim
04-10-2010, 23:25
i've had 2 lr's, a 300tdi 90 p reg (chassis starting to rust, leaked leaked like a sieve, rear door wouldn't lock, crap heater), and a disco 3, which was so unreliable i sold it after 3 mo. you could not own one out of warranty.
Subsequently i've gone over to jap 4x4's: a landcruiser 120, superbly built, and a 1992 pajero for offroading, cost under £1k, no leaks, aircon, no rust, 90% as good offroad. i've also had a suzuki samurai.
Landrovers (defenders) are iconic, and have a great image. that's about it. I love landrovers, but wouldn't buy another. i've had both.
If toyota imported the 70 series this argument would be over.
If toyota imported the 70 series this argument would be over.
Oh really? Why?
BBC News Article
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11465824
BBC News Article
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11465824
doesn't surprise me:(
i heard (only a roomer) that defenders don't meet EU safety standards anyway because the chassis is too ridged so absorbs very little impact when in a crash which is another reason why they may be scrapped.
but you should be able to buy a land rover (sort of). santana who used to make a 4x4 based on a series 2 design has been bought by iveco who have carried on making it.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/Fosili/Coleccion/Iveco-Massif-1.jpg
looks ok to me and is made by iveco = VERY GOOD :) and its not japinese if that bothers you.
but at the moment it is unavailable in the uk because of the credit crunch or something...
pete
Everybody... "Postman Pat, postman Pat and his black and white caaaaaaaat..."
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s144/Fosili/Coleccion/Iveco-Massif-1.jpg
Isn't that a picture of a scale model??
The real thing looks somewhat like a landrover from the side...
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/ivecomassif/images/5-iveco-massif.jpg
Im sure ive seen santanas looking exactly like defenders except for the dual head lights,
http://www.thomasgroupholdings.com/TGHimages/Vehicle_images/santana-01.jpg
ahh there we go,
That is the Santana PS10(Anibal) - stopped making then in 2007, when Iveco took over. Now they make the new version - The Masstif. Supposed to be a good work hosre and good off road but even worse ride than LRs.
http://www.offroad.iveco.com/
Santana used to build Suzuki SJ and still make Jimnys under license.
holy smokes, give that daily a boxbody and paint it whit, you have the ultimate white van man machine,
lannyman8
08-10-2010, 22:04
http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz174/lannyman8/mobilepictures006.jpg
http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz174/lannyman8/lanny003.jpg
my girl and the only 4x4 i would ever have, its abit like bushcraft one you have been bitten thats it........
I had a couple of old defenders, and I loved 'em. They were ace vehicles. One in particular was amazing; leaked like a seive, cost a shedload in terms of maintenance and fuel, and was so beat up that I couldn't care less if I drove it into a tree. I have switched to an old toyota pickup, and there is no looking back for me. It's reliable, gets really good fuel mileage, is way smaller and less tank-like than my landrovers, and is the guvnor off road. I'm serious when I say that I take this thing into places that I would never consider taking my old landrovers. I rarely ever get this thing stuck, whereas it was almost a weekly event with the defenders.
one thing i never understand is why there is no diff locks on a land rover?
i meen on the axels not the centre diff (imo the centre diff doesn't really count as it has no advantage over a selectable 4wd). im sure it would make them soooo much more capable.
in my mates pinzgauer it has 3 leavers on the dash, one engages the 4wd, one locks the rear diff and the other locks the front. with these you can drive over ditches with no problems and you can engage the leavers on the fly so you don't even need to dip the clutch :D
pete
bilmo-p5
11-10-2010, 16:55
... 3 leavers on the dash, one engages the 4wd, one locks the rear diff and the other locks the front. with these you can drive over ditches with no problems and you can engage the leavers on the fly so you don't even need to dip the clutch
Never get that one past the Lode Lane Too-Easy panel. ;)
beacuase in the desing and run put to the launch of the LR110 in 1983 (90 in 1984) if was felt that the class leading articualtion offered by coils over leafs (that everyone else was using) meant front and rear Difflocks where not needed - to compete with and beat the competion.
And Maggies' governement wanted to keep cost of proping BL down.
Defendes came about in 1990 with the introduction of the 200TDi engine - same vehicle as the 90/110 except engine.
one thing i never understand is why there is no diff locks on a land rover?
i meen on the axels not the centre diff (imo the centre diff doesn't really count as it has no advantage over a selectable 4wd). im sure it would make them soooo much more capable.
in my mates pinzgauer it has 3 leavers on the dash, one engages the 4wd, one locks the rear diff and the other locks the front. with these you can drive over ditches with no problems and you can engage the leavers on the fly so you don't even need to dip the clutch :D
pete
Yeah sure... but then again I've just bought a Challenger II which just wastes the Pinzgauer offroad, is faster on road, can drive through buildings and only cost me 15 times as much as the cheapest Pinz on the net.
Come on... get a grip.
Here you go... a realistic comparison:
1993 Defender 90 200 Tdi. Owned since 2006 by me - maintenance costs over and above the service schedule:
Water pump: £32 + 1/2 day to fit
Alternator belt: £6
Clutch Master Cylinder £21 + 1.5 hours to fit + ~500mls of DOT4
1993 Mitsubishi L200. This poor fella owned by it since 2005... read on...L200 (http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/mitsubishi/l200/r106487/)
Anyone on here got an early 90's plastic fantastic they'd care to share the service record of?
Yeah sure... but then again I've just bought a Challenger II which just wastes the Pinzgauer offroad, is faster on road, can drive through buildings and only cost me 15 times as much as the cheapest Pinz on the net.
Come on... get a grip.
Here you go... a realistic comparison:
1993 Defender 90 200 Tdi. Owned since 2006 by me - maintenance costs over and above the service schedule:
Water pump: £32 + 1/2 day to fit
Alternator belt: £6
Clutch Master Cylinder £21 + 1.5 hours to fit + ~500mls of DOT4
1993 Mitsubishi L200. This poor fella owned by it since 2005... read on...L200 (http://www.carsurvey.org/reviews/mitsubishi/l200/r106487/)
Anyone on here got an early 90's plastic fantastic they'd care to share the service record of?
Yep I have a 70 series Landcriuser Prado wagon made in 1993.
I've had it since 2005..
3.0 TD 5 sp manual
All it's had above the normal servicing costs has been a rear wheel bearing a clutch slave cylinder seal kit oh and two new batteries (it has dual batteries and they were the originals so that not too bad).
There is not much plastic on a 70 series...
British Red
12-10-2010, 07:41
Twelve year old Landcruiser. One battery, two bulbs, parts costs of about £60. Thats it in over a decade.
It comes with dash controlled diff locks too!
Twelve year old Landcruiser. One battery, two bulbs, parts costs of about £60. Thats it in over a decade.
It comes with dash controlled diff locks too!
What model of Landcruiser BR 70 80 or 100 series??
[QUOTE=lannyman8;758747]http://i825.photobucket.com/albums/zz174/lannyman8/mobilepictures006.jpg
QUOTE]
I like you wagon lannyman, but check out the d,r,o,p,s in the back ground, big truck of choice!!
British Red
12-10-2010, 09:15
No idea mate - we call them the "colorado" type here
This shape
http://i.oodleimg.com/s/car_toyota_land_cruiser_1999/stock/1m.jpg
There is not much plastic on a 70 series...
Didn't read the question very well then did ye?
Twelve year old Landcruiser.
Nor did BRed... 2010 - 12 = 1998.
Would that be the range which started at very nearly twice the price of the Defender then?
British Red
12-10-2010, 09:39
I don't know Adze. I know I bought it under two years old for much less than I could get an equivalent sized and age Defender for. It was my first Jap off roader after years of driving landrovers from Series IIa onwards. so I have a decade of Jap 4x4 driving and more than that of Landrovers. A fair basis for comparison I think.
Purely out of interest - I assume you have owned and driven both for a lomg time too?
Red
Japanese 4x4 no, never owned one. Japanese cars, however, yes been there done that with knobs on - I ran MkII Toyota MR2s for the better part of a decade, one domestic one and a grey import turbo (no I don't do blow drying). Sadly, I can no longer afford the astronomical parts prices to keep them on the road so they've gone by the by.
It's a similarly judged reaction to a Japanese 4x4 y'see. For just the same reason I use Insa Turbo Sahara remould tyres instead of genuine Yokohama Geolanders, which is "when I burst one it'll cost me £50 not £150" I'd rather have a car I can fix myself with a hammer, some duct tape and a half decent socket set and some pocket money for parts than go back to the, as I see them, bad old days of £1,000 for a set of tyres and a minimum parts cost of £120 for brake pads. :yikes:
Didn't read the question very well then did ye?
Hi Adze,
Im sorry I don't understand?
I thought what you were doing was illustrating that your defender hasn't cost you much to run apart from some minor additional parts.
You were then sort of throwing down the gauntlet to owners of similarly aged 'plastic fantastic' 4wd owners to see if the running costs they had were similar.
I took Plastic fantastic to mean Japanese 4wd's as you said earlier in the thread..
No you wouldn't... you'd be a fool to use anything which has been under maintained. That includes plastic fantastic soluble and disposable pretend 4x4's made in Japan.
Actually that is one thing you can say in favour of japanese 4x4's... the plastic bits and alloy engines don't rust much.
So I thought being the owner of an early 90's 'plastic fantastic' 4wd I'd share my findings on running costs with you. They seem to be more or less the same as your Defender...
So I appologise for not understanding the question...
No idea mate - we call them the "colorado" type here
This shape
http://i.oodleimg.com/s/car_toyota_land_cruiser_1999/stock/1m.jpg
Ok looks like a 100 series...
Landcruiser identification:
40 series
http://www.premiumsuv.com/includes/images/Toyota_Landcruiser/toyota_land_cruiser_fj40.jpg
60 series
http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200511/1980-toyota-land-cruiser-_460x0w.jpg
70 series
http://ecom.toyota-gib.com/images07/feb/New%2076.jpg
80 series
http://www.ultimate4wd.com.au/products/vehicles/toyota/i/landcr28.jpg
100 series
http://pictures.topspeed.com/IMG/crop/200511/1998-toyota-land-cruiser--7_460x0w.jpg
200 series
http://www.privatefleet.com.au/images/upload/Image/Cars/ToyotaLandCruiser.jpg
HTH
British Red
12-10-2010, 10:57
Japanese 4x4 no, never owned one.
Thought not.
I'd rather have a car I can fix myself with a hammer, some duct tape and a half decent socket set and some pocket money for parts
That's the difference I guess. I'd rather have a car that doesn't need to be fixed regularly or indeed at all with proper servicing.
I don't want to tinker and mess about with cars, I just want to drive them. They are a means of transport to me, not a hobby.
I've had a number of Landrovers and I just got bored with the poor build quality and constant niggling problems you get with them. They are undoubtedly capable off road, but the attention to detail is woeful (in my view). Sure they are fun and good for "image", but I need my car to be reliable, and they aren't. Nor are they cheap - as I said, I got a comfortable, warm, dry, reliable car that is very nearly as capable off road for less money than a sub 2 year old 110. I haven't needed any parts in well over 100,000 miles of motoring. So, fo me, cheaper to buy, cheaper to run, more comfortable, more reliable.
Its a no brainer for me. I'm happy you feel differently - if you enjoy tinkering with your socket set, good luck to you
Red
fast but dim
12-10-2010, 19:51
lol, i've got to do it.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Hr5GbRC7Q
i've gone from landrovers to jap 4x4's : i'd have a defender again, but only if i won the lottery. great cars ruined by terrible build quality bought by peole who don't how good jap 4x4's are. Tbh if i won the lottery i'd have a 4.2l 70 series.