View Full Version : Within the spirit of the law
Does anyone have any experience with this knife?
ebay item no 5164980206.
I need something that I can keep readily at hand, that won't cause me any grief, that will fit my hand (very small, 6 or 6 1/2 gloves) but will actually work for cutting small branches, fibres, bark, willow, etc., when I'm working with schoolkids. This isn't a lock- knife and it seems to be below the length threshold.
I'm reluctant to spend an awful lot on a knife since I'm really quite happy with what I have for everyday stuff, and I'd never even considered a neck knife until I read some of the threads on this forum.
All input welcome. :-)
Toddy
Please someone jump in if I'm wrong but I thought all fixed blades were no go in public? Small or not.:?:
I'll go and look further...
I'm afraid that it's considered a fixed blade and as such technically illegal to carry in a public place without good reason.
Here's an article you might like to read: http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/articles/knife_law.html
A fixed blade of any length (even under 3 inches) needs to have a good reason to carry it.
Yep. Just got back from British blades and Adi summed it up. :biggthump
All you can carry is a readily foldable knife under 3'' unless there is good reason eg. for religous reasons, work or national costume.
It's summed up very well by Martyn here and if you search at www.britishblades.com you will find LOADS!!!
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=975
when I'm working with schoolkids.
I think this might cause you problems for carrying a slip-joint too. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm sure it's been mentioned somewhere that any knife in a school is a no go.
That's right Stew:
1. - (1) In section 24 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (arrest without warrant for arrestable offences), in subsection (2), after paragraph (j) there is inserted-
"(k) an offence under section 1(1) of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 (prohibition of the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority or reasonable excuse);
(l) an offence under section 139(1) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offence of having article with blade or point in public place);
(m) an offence under section 139A(1) or (2) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offence of having article with blade or point (or offensive weapon) on school premises)".
Then you have:
(4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had the article or weapon in question with him-
(a) for use at work,
(b) for educational purposes,
(c) for religious reasons, or
(d) as part of any national costume.
I guess that "him" also applies to "her" too ... :rolmao: ... or maybe women are just more sensible with blades than men.
See this is my problem, scissors just won't do, therefore I have a legitimate reason for using the knife, BUT, it is one of those areas where as small as I can use effectively without whipping out a monstrous thing that would chop up a red deer with, is the aim. The idea is to make it look like a tool, so that that is how it is perceived by the kids, not as a 'KNIFE' :yikes: In a woman's hand it takes away some of the 'weapon' look anyway and reinforces the mum/vegetables/dinner, etc., sort of thing. I'm supposed to be teaching them 'Country comes to the City' or traditional handcrafts, or indigenous plant uses (I've forgotten what the last ranger/teacher name idea was??) I'm aiming for a smaller knife than my opinel, but one that is just as useful. And there are three of us doing this so we *all* need to re-think our favourite knives. :?:
I know why we have these rules and guidelines, I'm simply trying to do my job and stay as close as I can to still having a useable tool. At this rate all kids are ever going to get shown is , "And this is one I prepared earlier".
<The first person who calls me Delia gets dinner thrown at them >:cry:
Thanks for the help,
Toddy
It's a real toughie Toddy ... I'm sure there are many (myself included) that bend the law on a regular basis with regards to this issue - I'm in no way condoning this and really what people choose to do is their own choice. Same goes for good reasons - ultimately it's up to the police or the magistrates to decide if your reason is valid, although where schools are concerned I think that this is important to note:
139A. - (1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
Have you looked at the Spyderco Pride or Pen-Knife ... neither are locking but both technically "legal" with regards to the law.
rapidboy
17-02-2005, 23:33
I think Opinel make some small fixed blades that should fit the bill if you don't want a folder.
Squidders
17-02-2005, 23:42
I second the opinel knife choice... cheap, small and inoffensive looking... beware of where you carry the knife. Schools, nightclubs, pubs etc can be a big no-no.
Have you looked at the Spyderco Pride or Pen-Knife ... neither are locking but both technically "legal" with regards to the law.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Adi, Just had a look, I'm tempted but they 'look' mean if you see what I'm getting at. I'm aiming for something tool like rather than blade. I really don't want to carry fine scissors, heavy scissors and pruners and a scraper....too many tools to keep an eye on, and I don't want to work six feet away from the kids behind fencing. I want them to touch, smell, taste? the plants I'm using. I worked with over 4,000 schoolkids last year alone, and this year is going to be busier.
I didn't know Opinel did a fixed blade, I'll have look there too..
Thanks folks :icon_conf
Toddy
Squidders
17-02-2005, 23:59
I don't think opinel do a fixed blade... the point is that to carry a knife all the time and not require a good reason (not just any reason) it HAS to have a blade 3 inches long or under that folds with no locking method to keep it open.
This is the bottom line i'm affraid.
My opinel has a ring collar that 'locks' it open, which was why I was looking at the very short bladed fixed knives that were obviously just tools.
This is *such* a bugbear (I'm being polite!) I know why we have the laws; I work in some areas where it seems like *every* young man carries knife scars, but this is seriously inhibiting what I do and it's colouring children's perceptions too. Knife = :nono: :nono: instead of knife = useful tool
The thugs don't even *need* a knife to cause trouble. One young ned tried to mug my brother with a screwdriver. In his usual inimitable fashion little brother said, "What's up son, does yir mammy no' trust y' wi' a breid knife?"
End of thugs' ego for life. :-) :-)
Toddy
I would have thought that you would have reasonable cause to carry a small fixed blade knife for your work. Perhaps if you make contact with your local police and explain the situation and convince them of the validity of your reasons for needing it i.e. a fixed blade knife being a much safer tool to use, they won't have any problems with it. Then, if for some reason you are challenged you can say " just phone Sgt.xxxxx at yyyy station and he'll vouch for me.
Toddy, is the knife to be carried whilst you are working and for work purposes.
As long as the type of work you are carrying out justifies the use of a knife then I cannot see a problem in what you carry.
Hadn't thought of bothering the police, but it's certainly a good idea. I 'll give it a go.
thanks, :-)
Toddy
Toddy, is the knife to be carried whilst you are working and for work purposes.
As long as the type of work you are carrying out justifies the use of a knife then I cannot see a problem in what you carry.
This is what I'm hoping I'm covered by, just now, but it's been left so grey an area that I could find myself caught out unawares.
Thanks for the advice,
Toddy
rapidboy
18-02-2005, 00:36
I was in my local cop shop this very evening ,called in on my way home from work wearing my working clothes and i was driving my van.
I had a chat with the desk sargent and no one commented on the new Allan Blade Pack Pal that was on my belt.
It is a tool just like the screwdriver in my pocket and the hammer on my belt loop.
I find most cops are quite down to earth and as long as your reasonably sensible then they will give you no hassle.
I would advise a chat with your local police and then as there are kid's involved a chat with your local education authority.
rb
I was in my local cop shop this very evening ,called in on my way home from work wearing my working clothes and i was driving my van.
I had a chat with the desk sargent and no one commented on the new Allan Blade Pack Pal that was on my belt.
It is a tool just like the screwdriver in my pocket and the hammer on my belt loop.
I find most cops are quite down to earth and as long as your reasonably sensible then they will give you no hassle.
I would advise a chat with your local police and then as there are kid's involved a chat with your local education authority.
rb
I'd second that, give them a yell and explain the situation, see what they come up with.
Buckshot
18-02-2005, 08:46
IN terms of a suitable knife that doesn't look offensive, what about some sort of pruning knife. The sort you get form garden centres.
OK the steel may be naff, but there are loads of people both here and on BB who would be able to re-blade it with decent steel without too much cost.
I know falcon has done just that recently and his looks very nice.
These definately don't look like a weapon but I suppose it depends if you want a hook blade :?:
Mark
I would have to suggest that whatever you use , fit a strong lanyard ! the reason i say this is that there is always an element amoung kids that are more than willing to lift your knife for there own ! I know that most of them are good as gold , but it only takes one kid to ruin the whole day . Seen it happen to many times . Whilst in Cadets , one cadet on annual camp got caught trying to nick a gurkhas kukri ! Not good
Pumbaa
I would have to suggest that whatever you use , fit a strong lanyard ! the reason i say this is that there is always an element amoung kids that are more than willing to lift your knife for there own ! I know that most of them are good as gold , but it only takes one kid to ruin the whole day . Seen it happen to many times . Whilst in Cadets , one cadet on annual camp got caught trying to nick a gurkhas kukri ! Not good
Pumbaa
This is why I was looking at that neck knife; it's short bladed, no footering about trying to open it while I'm holding onto a bundle of fibres, it looks like a tool, and I won't be tempted to put it down and mislay it.
On a big schools day, there are three of us and we might talk to 600 schoolkids in about 4 hours. We do hands on basketry/willow work, nettle/flax/hemp cordage, spinning, natural dyes, weaving, and plant uses from bark weaving, fibres..... to dyes and ointments. Adult courses are a dawdle compared to the sheer volume of kids. :-)
We haven't lost a knife yet, but one of our basketmakers lost two at Tree in the Park a couple of years ago and we're all wary now. We've been told in no uncertain terms that we ought not allow the children to use our tools, even under supervision :cry: I use an Opinel as my normal pruning knife, but it's considered a 'lock' now, so that's out.
Everyone is being very circumspect about this SOG, is it really not any good then?.....I can't justify spending 3 x £29 / £58 for the other ones recommended if the idea isn't going to work out.
Thanks folks,
Toddy
SOG stuff is pretty good. The steel on this is AUS-6, and while it's no miracle steel that can chop crash barriers and slice concrete k-rails into thin strips it's not bad either (it's the same steel as on the Spyderco Pride).
It's small, light and the sheath looks effective and I've sure that you can get a good edge on it and maintain it easily. A quick spray with some car paint or a nice cord wrap handle might make it look friendly too.
It also doubles up as a handy bottle opener!
http://www.sogknives.com/outline.htm
If you didn't like it you're a full member Toddy and allowed to use the member's classified section here at bcUK and I'm sure you could sell it if you didn't like it.
Danceswithhelicopters
18-02-2005, 11:53
Ulimately what you have is a tool. People carry in public Stanley knives, kitchen blades, fixed blades for dealing with carcasses, axes, pruning knives etc.
The law is is to prevent the unlawful carrying of knives and any reasonable, accountable and necessary reason will allow you to carry a knife.
There appears to be a massive hang up on the law. The words 'Lawful authority or Reasonable excuse' are quite clear. Do you need it? Yes, is there an alternative, no. Is it the best/safest option? Yes.
The advice of speaking to the local cops and getting a name is a good one though.
As for the SOG-Good blade, serrated edge, safe sheath, beer opener(!) A ceramic sharpener will keep the serrations sharp. Around the neck will keep it away from people but near to hand.
I'm a Spyderco fan though and have a Delica with neck sheath which would work for you as well. Semi-serrated edge, one handed opening, pointy tip. Recommended.
there are a few good choices that would be very non aggressive looking for you
I think an Allen blade runt would work well if you want a fixed blade. The slate finish he's putting on now looks very rustic and ungressive IMO. This would make a great neck knife
for folders I don't see why you can't have something nice
most sheffield makers do a pruning knife in a traditional style something like
this (http://www.worldknives.com/product.asp?produid=342&manuid=25) would work
depending on what sort of handle you want they will range from about £15 upwards and have asimple carbon steel which works well
There appears to be a massive hang up on the law.
That there is - but there is jail involved if the advice is wrong so tempering advice with caution is not a bad thing. No forum can guarantee that any 'Lawful authority or Reasonable excuse' will be valid - and the law is extra complex when it comes to school property and such.
If you already carry an Opinel Toddy and no one gives you any hassle about it then I think you'd be fine with the SOG or Spyderco or whatever you choose.
Tantalus
18-02-2005, 12:35
seems to me that the courses you describe toddy would be a good enough justification
otherwise the police would have to round up half (if not more) of the staff of the forrestry comission while they sat eating lunch in forrestry comission vans in the woods
if that doesnt make much sense , the law recently declared a car to be a public place, and if they were on lunch break then technically they could not be considered "working"
of course it aint gonna happen , because that is not what the law was (mis?)written to try and stop
seriously understand your reasons for being cautious tho specially with schoolkids
Tant
Toddy i would use something like this http://www.fine-tools.com/messer9.htm
The short carving knives look incredibly innofensive and are obviously craft tools, but they are lovely little blades - make up a decent neck sheath for them and they'll do what you want just fine.
Made of frost laminated steel and dirt cheap too - I have 3 or 4 of these and I love them to bits.
George
QUOTE (It's small, light and the sheath looks effective and I've sure that you can get a good edge on it and maintain it easily. A quick spray with some car paint or a nice cord wrap handle might make it look friendly too.)
I am sooo tempted to paint a pocket knife pink...I haven't lost my trowel yet since I coated the ferrule and top knob with nail varnish :-)
Okay, I know it's a bit naff, but what kid is going to want to nick that? :naughty:
Toddy
Hi Toddy
Under section 139 (5) of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 it is legal to carry any type of knife if you can show you require it for work. This is not affected by the prohibition on knives in schools.
So if you need it for work, and can prove that, it is quite legal to carry a fixed blade knife, or a locking folder.
:biggthump
Danzo
YESS!!!!!!!
Thank you :super:
Toddy
Long time since I was at school, but when I was, the woodwork shop and kitchens had lots of tools which would fall foul of the current laws.
Talk to the cops and the school authorities and you should be fine (as long as your current knife isn't a Rambo special :shock: )
Keith_Beef
21-02-2005, 10:30
I don't think opinel do a fixed blade...
"Pantry knife"
http://www.bushcraftuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=3641
Keith.
rapidboy
21-02-2005, 18:33
That's the one's i was thinking about.
Anyone know where they are available in the UK ??
I think that Heinnie are the UK distributors for Opinel (think ... ). Drop them a line and they're bound to help.