View Full Version : Safe food use timbers/pole lathe turning
I've been trying to confirm a safe list of timbers for green turning/ utensil making for food use. I've come to the conclusion that it might be easier to list those that *aren't* suitable, so that any real baddies are clearly noted.
Any suggestions folks?
I was thinking more of the real nono ones rather than the, shouldn't use because of the open pore structures that trap bacteria, etc. ones, though I'd quite like to add to my list of ash, chestnut, elm and oak for those too.
Also, any interest in a days workshop on pole lathe turning/bodging in the West of Scotland? It'd be really cheap if there are a few of us, highly recommended bodger and a great teacher.
Toddy
bambodoggy
14-02-2005, 11:28
Hey Toddy....
The only one I know 100% for sure as very bad is YEW... even cooking over the wood as fuel can make the food poisoned but certainly it shouldn't be used for utencils etc and definately not when green.
There is some talk that it can be used if dry but I wouldn't risk it...
Cheers,
Bambam.
tenbears10
14-02-2005, 11:44
Yew foliage can kill animals in a very short time if ingested as well. This is one reason yew trees are often planted in grave yards IIRC.
Sorry if that is slightly off topic thought you might be interested.
Bill
ChrisKavanaugh
14-02-2005, 20:44
I wouldn't worry to much about bacteria. Not every form is necessarily bad. We have tried to sterilise and medicate the natural world out of our bodies to our own detriment. Household cutting boards once wood are now petrochemical monstrosities because of this fallacious fear. Remember that wood itself was a living organism with it's own defenses or simbiotic relationships to various critters. Hot water in the kitchen and campground still works. There are some VERY nasty woods out there. Many years ago a WA. State scout troop roasted marshmellows on yewsticks with several resulting fatalities. Animals are not immune either. The Black Walnut tree can harm horses merely being used as stall shavings.
bushwacker bob
14-02-2005, 23:41
The Black Walnut tree can harm horses merely being used as stall shavings.
:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
I'd better change their bedding tomorrow then! Mine are on shavings and I'm sure there is black walnut amongst the pine and oak!
This is one reason yew trees are often planted in grave yards IIRC.
It's an urban myth mate ;-)
Think about it for 1 second. If you had a grave yard that animals kept wandering into ... would you
A) Plant a yew tree so that in a few hundred years time it may be big enough
to keep all the animals out...., actualy, it wont keep them out.... they'll come in, eat the yew and end up dead.... I've seen a few animals eating yew... they didn't keep away from it, they didn't seem to know the dangers.
or would you...
B) Build a wall or fence around the grave yard.... an ancient device for keeping animals out by the way.... been used for years as country folk know..... ;-)
Many yew trees in graveyards predate the churches by some years.
:-)
Ed
plus you can use yew wood for utensils. I had a yew wine cup for a few years with no ill effect.
Certainly less than the home brew that went in it.
tenbears10
15-02-2005, 13:53
It's an urban myth mate ;-)
Think about it for 1 second. If you had a grave yard that animals kept wandering into ...
Many yew trees in graveyards predate the churches by some years.
Ed
I think I really meant the connection between Yew trees and death linking them to the graveyard but I didn't explain that at all now I re-read it.
I agree it is a bit of a longwinded way to keep animals out of graveyards 'I know lets plant a tree which will take ages to grow bit it will kill the animals once it is big enough' Otherwise why aren't graveyards full of rhubarb?
Anyway I'm taking this way off topic sorry I think we all agree yew is one poisonous wood for the list.
Bill
tenbears10
15-02-2005, 13:55
D'oh
Eds doesn't agree. So is it poisonous to use Yew for utensils or not?
This is a very short list so far. Probably all the off topic chat about graveyards
:wink:
bambodoggy
15-02-2005, 14:05
As I said at the start I believe you can use Yew when it's totally dry for utencils but personally.....I wouldn't take the risk....there's plenty of other wood about :o):
But use it green at your peril.....oh and if you do can I have your Swanni? :naughty:
plus you can use yew wood for utensils. I had a yew wine cup for a few years with no ill effect.
Certainly less than the home brew that went in it.
I wonder if that's in part due to varnish or waxing? I was wodnering about making a pipe from some well seasoned yew - but decided it was a very silly idea.
Is Elder wood toxic? I know some of the american species are.
Any member of the maple family should be fine, sycamore is plentiful around here as we keep hacking it down. Birch is also fine.
Spindle, yew, any other genuinely poisonous native trees in the UK?
I've just got hold of some ivy staves about 6 inches across in 2 foot lengths. I'm suprised at how hard the wood is but it's not one you'd normaly see that large. It had a reputation for rendering harmless any poison put into a cup made from it. Can't say I'd like to test that theory.
Realgar
Hmmm, okay, Yew is known to be toxic, but the flesh of the berries (NOT the seeds) is used as a diuretc and laxative, and by personal account a tankard made of it doesn't appear to have caused any problems....
Have a look at
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/wis30.pdf
I take on board what was said about the open pores type woods not really being problematic in bushcraft; their wood isn't toxic, but I still think the timber properties are something to at least be aware of. Fair enough?
Elder I use, but the bark can cause problems, see, for example,
http://www.purplesage.org.uk/profiles/elder.htm
the easily hollowed out branches have been used for generations for children's whistles and spiles for tapping trees for sap.
Spindle I don't know at all, there doesn't seem to be any in any of my haunts, my only knowledge of it is as an anti lice herbal powder.
I think this thread could run for a while, I'd be pleased to hear any ideas or personal experience info.
Thanks folks,
Toddy
I believe that sycamore was traditionally used for bowls and platters because of it's low tannin content.
I have been using a hawthorn spoon alot of late and I haven't died! (yet).
I believe that sycamore was traditionally used for bowls and platters because of it's low tannin content.
I have been using a hawthorn spoon alot of late and I haven't died! (yet).
Well that's a relief! :lol:
My grandpa ate his boiled eggs and his porridge with a horn spoon, (it stank though) and he lived to be 97....so there's hope for a hawthorn one. Did you make it yourself? and did it need a finish put on it?
Toddy
Well that's a relief! :lol:
My grandpa ate his boiled eggs and his porridge with a horn spoon, (it stank though) and he lived to be 97....so there's hope for a hawthorn one. Did you make it yourself? and did it need a finish put on it?
Toddy
Yep, made it myself and finished it with a rubbing of olive oil, which has probably all worn off by now. Hawthorn doesn't taste as woody as others I have used.
It's an urban myth mate ;-)
Think about it for 1 second. If you had a grave yard that animals kept wandering into ... would you
A) Plant a yew tree so that in a few hundred years time it may be big enough
to keep all the animals out...., actualy, it wont keep them out.... they'll come in, eat the yew and end up dead.... I've seen a few animals eating yew... they didn't keep away from it, they didn't seem to know the dangers.
I think its a more a factor of a grave yard is the only place your animals are not going to wander in to so you dont bother to cut down the poisen trees there.
There's whole sub thread working here, isn't there? :-)
Yews are reknowned as sacred trees in prehistory, were 'honoured' and held in regard---the whole undying thing--- and in many instances shrines were built around them.....along comes Christianity, and it's participants (these were most likely still the same people as before) co-opt the trees and the sanctuaries, and slowly incorporate them into Christianized ecclesiastical sites.
Yews make some of the best bows so the trees were exploited for timber---but would it really have felt appropriate to use a tree from a graveyard? (remember too, Christians buried in 'Holy ground', Pagans usually buried in 'family ground' or water deposition.
Britain was slowly becoming more populated, with the concomitant increase in farmed animals, the only places in a crowded environment that the yew could grow in peace 'was' in the churchyard. The oldest living thing in western Europe (fungi apart....maybe....) is the Yew in Fortingall churchyard in Perthshire. There's no heartwood to test accurately for date (Beltane fires!) but by analysing size and growth patterns the yew is at least 3,000, more likely 5,000 and might be 9,000 years old.
Nice to know about the hawthorn wood spoon, another one for the 'Goodie' list.
Toddy
bambodoggy
16-02-2005, 11:45
Spindle, yew, any other genuinely poisonous native trees in the UK?
Holly....poisonous to eat (why would you eat wood?) but I don't know if it's bad enough to stop you using it to make utencils with....
Oh, the leaves and stuff are poisonous too....
My favourite wood for turning or carving for utensils is beech. i've got an ongoing project where i'm gradually producing a six piece soup bowl and spoon set by carving rather than turning. I like to use birch (quite soft and easy to carve, though the grain can be problematic.) and I've got a load of apple and ash that i've got stacked up to use sometime.
After the January storms up our way I'm pretty overwhelmed with timber and a bunch of exotics that came down in the local arboretum will get used at some point. I was lucky enough to get a whole elm tree that is going to the sawyer soon to get planked for tables and chairs. i've got ash stacked up in my garden that I'm going to have to burn just to get rid of it (I usually burn larch but for some reason not many of them came down.) and I'm trying to get my hands on a 90ft redwood that came down on the edge of my garden. I reckon that will be most of the timber I need for the house I'm trying to build!
Favourite wood of all though is oak - easy to work green and beautiful to look at once its seasoned
George
Boxwood (Buxus sempervirens) is poisonous. A woodcarver I know suggested to have a salad bowl carved from it for my mother in law.
beachlover
18-02-2005, 22:06
I've got an ongoing project where i'm gradually producing a six piece soup bowl and spoon set by carving rather than turning. George
Any chance of some pics?
I am a pre-novice carver and need encouragement and inspiration and in any case reckon that everyone would like a preview.
Squidders
18-02-2005, 22:21
I have a nice seasoned bit of cherry... about 3' x 1'... is cherry safe for eating utensils?
Joe
What about Holly? A friend has asked because we've just heavily pruned a holly tree and she would like a white wood cup. One of the Galgael polelathe turners made me a holly spindlewhorl last year and it split before I got it home, I've had it soaking in a bucket of water on and off since but the crack refuses to settle. Is the cup really feasible?
I'm having no joy making glue from the bark, what am I doing wrong?? Really good yellow green dye on wool though :-)
Toddy
Not sure about holly. I have a ladle that I'm working on but it's more of a decorative piece than practical. It doesn't smell very nice.
Any chance of some pics?
I am a pre-novice carver and need encouragement and inspiration and in any case reckon that everyone would like a preview.
Hi Beachlover
Sorry - no digicam at the moment - but seeing as the wife wants one for her birthday, I might get my hands on one soon.
george
ChrisKavanaugh
21-02-2005, 08:44
Not to be pedantic, but to be safe give the taxonic name for any wood mentioned. There are countless distinct plants that share full or partial common names. As an aside, my grandmother had a piece of irish jewelry carved from 'bog oak' Theres big money recovering logs that sank over a century ago during river transport and even old log cabin beams are being turned into fashionable furniture. Don't overlook oddball resources.
Keith_Beef
21-02-2005, 10:16
Holly....poisonous to eat (why would you eat wood?) but I don't know if it's bad enough to stop you using it to make utencils with....
Oh, the leaves and stuff are poisonous too....
I don't know about the wood being poisonous, but I doubt very much that you could get a big enough dose to even get belly ache from using a holly spoon and bowl.
I frequently chew holly bark, for its stimulatingly bitter flavour.
In Yorkshire, stands of holly trees (hollins) were traditionally kept to provide winter fodder for sheep.
The Scots, apparently, did this too.
http://www.woodland-trust.org.uk/ancient-tree-forum/atfresources/images/guide54pp.pdf
Keith.
bambodoggy
21-02-2005, 12:15
Looks like you're right about the rest of the tree Keith....seems to be just the berries that are not good to eat.....
I found this site which tells us all about the Holly tree....and several others too!
http://www.controverscial.com/Holly.htm
Bit of an odd site.... :roll:
Thank you for the link...didn't know what to do with the holly for glue but having boiled it up and used the liquor for dye the strained bark is busy fermenting....we'll see what we get :-)
Toddy
brucemacdonald
22-02-2005, 16:49
I've just made a spoon from holly cut down in my garden last year. I didn't think to check that it was poisonous but I'm not worried about it. It was lovely wood to work with, though.
bambodoggy
22-02-2005, 17:01
It seems that Holly is fine Bruce.....you just can't eat the berries! :o):
Chip Dale
22-02-2005, 18:51
As far as i am aware, it is safe to use holly wood. As already mentioned the berries are poisonous containing high concentrations of ursolic and ilexic acid. Although this is also contained in the wood, it is in smaller quantities.
The wood has a number of medicinal properties, namely treatment for common cold, influenza, brochitis rheumatism and arthritis.
Research matter: Edible & Medicinal Plants, by Edmund Launert, Published by Hamlyn guides, ISBN 0-600-56395-2.
This book contains many woods, their toxicity and uses.
Hope this helps
The wood has a number of medicinal properties, namely treatment for common cold, influenza, brochitis rheumatism and arthritis.
Research matter: Edible & Medicinal Plants, by Edmund Launert, Published by Hamlyn guides, ISBN 0-600-56395-2.
This book contains many woods, their toxicity and uses.
Hope this helps[/QUOTE]
It does, thank you :-)
Toddy
Paleoaleo
23-02-2005, 03:19
I would love to see photos of the pole lathe! I tried making a bow lathe not long ago, but had some problems that I need to work out. I've since purchased a small electric lathe, and have become spoiled in the process!
Tom
sycamore is the 'treen', (correct spelling?) wood of choice. It carves well,
grows like a weed, infact some consider it such! and has no taste. Supposedly it does not stain either but the spoons I made were never the same again
after curry night. Bright yellow is such an unattractive colour for wood!
I would love to see photos of the pole lathe! I tried making a bow lathe not long ago, but had some problems that I need to work out. I've since purchased a small electric lathe, and have become spoiled in the process!
Tom
I'm struggling to work my way through the photos...three different digital cameras and all saved in differing formats, and the Galgael offices are being moved & renovated. I'll post some when I can fnd them..sorry :cry:
Meanwhile, there's good bodgers site on
http://www.bodgers.org.uk/index.html
One of our pole lather turners went to the big meeting, called the Bodger's Ball and came home declaring he had a new collective term for a gathering of assorted pole lathes. Pat called it an 'amazement' :lol:
cheers,
Toddy
To check the toxicity of woods you could try this excellent site. HERE (http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/D_search.html)
It also gives the book references.