View Full Version : One for the military chaps!
Wilderbeast
02-01-2010, 15:33
hey guys,
Just wanted to ask a couple of questions about a few items of military kit!
1) What's the point in a magazine dump pouch? I believe they are easier to get mags into quickly. Now I've used assault vests and I've experienced this, but surely there would be a call for keeping mags in one in the first place, if it's quicker to put em in it should be quicker to pull em out!?
2) Why don't the UK do the thing where you strap more than one magazine onto another, so the change over is quicker because you don't have to look in the pouch in the first place!
Be really grateful for some answers, the second one's been bugging me for a while!
Cheers
Will
TallMikeM
02-01-2010, 15:43
dunno 'bout the first point (after my time I suspect) but you don't do the first cos it's prone to getting dirt in the magazine. I would also imagine it places a strain on the magazine release catch, with all that extra weight.
I'm not military but anyhow.
In a firefight, especially close quarters, it is far far quicker to dump a mag in to a wide-mouthed drop-leg pouch than it is to put them back in to your dedicated mag pouches.
I would imagine taping two mags together might lead to reliability issues with the magazine feed with the A2 rifle.
Dump pouchs are for when in a firefight you dont have time to replace you mag in the correct pouch and need to put it somewhere to reload later ,
taped mags are bad drills as the exposed mag collects dirt and dust causing stoppages .
Twodogs
HillBill
02-01-2010, 16:02
And the reason mags are kept in mag pouches is that when you get one out in a firefight its the right way up and you dont lose precious seconds having to figure which way it goes. When the adrenilines pumping things like this do make a difference. Its all about speed of reload. It can make the difference between life and death. You have to be in that position to fully appreciate it though.
HillBill
02-01-2010, 16:08
What you have to remember will is that in a proper firefight your not going to be looking at your rifle and pouches all the reloading happens instinctually due to all the drills you have done, your eyes are always looking for potential dangers, targets or changes in the flow of the engagement things are set up with that in mind.
Wilderbeast
02-01-2010, 16:09
cheers lads!
One further question!there's been a lot of talk about problems with the kit the boys are using, do you think this is because the kit issued is bad, or that there just isn't enough of it??
Bearing that in mind I guess, did you guys tend to buy a lot of your own kit, or stick with the stuff you were issued?
MartinK9
02-01-2010, 16:13
A bit of both to be honest, in the 80's and early 90's there was a wide gulf between issued kit and what was available on the market. Nowadays that gap has closed significantly.
just not enough of it, the british army has some of the best kit in the world. im not military but imo its just something else for the newspapers to bullsh1t about
pete
Did someone say, "fast magazine change" ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAFxgQmxbGI
TallMikeM
02-01-2010, 16:42
cheers lads!
One further question!there's been a lot of talk about problems with the kit the boys are using, do you think this is because the kit issued is bad, or that there just isn't enough of it??
Bearing that in mind I guess, did you guys tend to buy a lot of your own kit, or stick with the stuff you were issued?
military kit is always a compromise between cost and reliability, one has to give. And there's never enough of anything, except for those times when there is and you complain cos you've got too much stuff to carry.:lmao:
I'll echo the comment about modern kit being good. When I was in (late 80's and early 90's) the issue stuff was substandard. I have a current issue jacket for hunting, and it's streets ahead of what I was issued with. Shame it only comes in DPM, cos it'd make a great outdoors jacket.
ghillieman
02-01-2010, 16:51
Dutch army and marines are issued now with a new load bearing vest, wich replaces the old model wich had a alice clip system, and laces on the sides to make it the right size.
Our soldiers saying i want to fight with my gear, not against it, wich would be nice when using it in Uruzgan.
Strange that al these test before does not result in in exellent gear,of course the new gear is not as heavy as the stuff of the seventies and eighties.
Dump pouches are a natural progression from the old "Brecon Pouch". As the others have said they are used during a firefight for dropping empty magazines. You don't use a dump pouch for all magazines as there is normally no means of keeping charged and empty magazines separate.
Taped magazines are a different matter, most of the guys have given good reasons for not using them dirt ingress into the mouth of the magazine causing stoppages and damage to the round are the the major reasons.
Taping magazines in an upward staggered manner doesn't work with the SA80 due the magazine housing and the magazine release catch.
However the HK53 which was issued to the British forces did come with a magazine clip that held both magazines in the upright position side by side reducing the chance of dirt ingress. It was used by the british forces for a good number of years, but was not considered a good idea for standard infantry work as you could not guarentee the safety / security of the magazine or the cleanliness of the ammunition in standard infantry tactics.
cheers lads!
One further question!there's been a lot of talk about problems with the kit the boys are using, do you think this is because the kit issued is bad, or that there just isn't enough of it??
Bearing that in mind I guess, did you guys tend to buy a lot of your own kit, or stick with the stuff you were issued?
When I started (1986) we bought loads of our own kit, by the time I left (2000) we weren't buying anywhere near the same amount, kit had progressed / improved in many ways and cases, but there was generally a shortage and some of the kit that we had trialled and had got the contract for the design had then been given to the lowest bidder to make. With the cost went the quality.
Now the problem seems more to be that the quality is there, but the massive buying power that the likes of the American forces have we haven't got as we just don't have the quantity of people or the budget to do it.
Melonfish
02-01-2010, 17:34
pretty much been covered but yeah, dump pouch isn't for emptied but rather not "full" mags, i.e. you get a moment you're not sure how much you have left in your mag but you may be in the thick any sec, so you dump the one you have in and get a fresh mag in just incase, later on during a lull you can re-load that mag or whatever.
as for taped mags together well thats purely because if you hit the floor with your rifle you'll just clock the mag with dirt, you don't notice because there's bullets whizzing past you then when you next slap that mag in you'll just gum up the firing mech with dirt.
hope thats answered that one ;)
forestwalker
02-01-2010, 17:46
We taped the mags for the old Swedish M45/B 9mm, but that was in a "V" position (same end up), and mostly as a way to enable quick changes in "expected firefights (i.e. if you were going to do an ambush, man a roadblock, etc). As for stoppages imagine a fairly "open" gun, fired until warm, dragged in the snow a bit and allowed to refreeze...
wingstoo
02-01-2010, 17:53
For Magazine couplers there are these which keep the rounds uppermost, with enough room between to ensure they fit the weapon correctly. £15 a set.
http://www.soloint.co.uk/images/T/t_159.jpg
The dump pouches £15.50 EACH
http://www.soloint.co.uk/images/T/t_574_05.jpg
or £24.50 each
http://www.soloint.co.uk/images/T/t_627_01.jpg
Not sure if much of this is issued kit though.
as for taped mags together well thats purely because if you hit the floor with your rifle you'll just clock the mag with dirt, you don't notice because there's bullets whizzing past you then when you next slap that mag in you'll just gum up the firing mech with dirt.
Agree with everything here - just one other point, instructors don't want soldiers scattering blank ammunition all over training areas because their upside-down magazines decided to regurgitate their contents into a hedge somewhere...
instructors don't want soldiers scattering blank ammunition all over training areas
Brecon pouch is great for scattering empty mags all over the training area when people haven't had their belts done up tight enough, spent more than a few hours digging through heather looking for them (never mine I might add)
Everything said so far has been spot on in my experience, trying to get a mag back in a pouch while stressed and/or prone is not easy, even worse when cold and wet.
nige7whit
03-01-2010, 01:05
Has already been discussed, dump pouch is for putting removed mags into. Some folks pop them into the front of the combat smock (only works if wearing an external belt, or has the hem tied up at the waist).
There is a very good case for retaining empty mags for future use, they came off your rifle working, so they should be working next time too.
I recall reading that in the Vietnam war, the US forces were issued ammo in pre filled M16 mags of 20, but due to the huge manufacturing and supply chain, the mag springs went soft in storage, leading to misfeeds.
The M16 was also designed and sold as 'self cleaning', with the result that the troops often didn't, with the resultant stoppages.
Wilderbeast
03-01-2010, 01:15
Thanks for all the info chaps much appreciated!
Dump pouches are for poor militaries which cannot afford replacement mags.
In my time (70s) the Yanks just dropped their mags while we put ours back in a leg pocket.
Surrey Yeoman
10-01-2010, 04:59
I always used to stuff my empty mags down the front of my smock, but I guess, now that body armour has arrived on the scene, that's not an option anymore?
TinkyPete
10-01-2010, 17:17
Dump pouches are great in our new theatres of ops as it means we do not loose as many mags and also they can not be used against us in IED's also a lot guys carry more than just the eight mags you get most carry as many as you can get your hands on as fire fights are intense with lulls till you fix and then win the fire-fight and then you can reload once in some cover.
tapping mags together is never a good idea in dusty conditions as said before dust and mud can get into the mags and cause damage and problems.
There is still a gulf between what is available and gets issued to people not all get the newest guichi kit that available so guys still buy their own kit. I have been quite a few years now and have quite a collection of kit but I also keep my eye out on the new items that are out there and sometimes even make my own:)
MartinK9
10-01-2010, 17:28
I always used to stuff my empty mags down the front of my smock, but I guess, now that body armour has arrived on the scene, that's not an option anymore?
Used to do the same, as you said the new BA won't allow that.