View Full Version : Disgusting but does it work ?
I was reading a book recently called "mutant message down under" .It was more of a spiritual read than full of bushcraft as i was hoping , but there is one thing that makes ma gag at the thought of it ,but i still have to know if this would work ? So if you offend easily , Dent read any more !! This applies if you are eating too !!
As the author of the book explains " the women of the group would bring something packed in a leaf back to the "Healer" she would put this into one end of a tube" . She figures out latter in the book that these are Menstrual clots !!!!!!
If thats not gross enough read on .
A few days later one of the group falls and breaks a leg badly . the bone is pushing through the skin! So the group go about fixing it . firstly they pull the leg to the correct position so that the bone can knit . then the healer opens the other end of the tube and removes a black tar which she put on the open wound liberally !The leg was given a temporay splint and the man got up and carried on with the walkabout !After a few days the tar crumbled off leaving a healed scar .
What do you think on the medicinal qualitys of this by- product is this possible ? I know its gross and not something i would carry (i think customs would have a field day , or not!) but is this good enough to prevent stiches ?
What was going through the first persons mind when they decided to try it ?
Hope you found this interesting
Pumbaa
Don't know about gross but I would think that contaminating the wound with old tissue would lead to an infection pretty quickly. Not something I would be willing to try.
Does not sound a wise move to me.
SARHound
30-01-2005, 17:08
It must have worked or they wouldn't be doing it.
Who are we to argue over 10,000 years of aboriginal success.
why it works? Who knows :?: .
There are traditional medical practices that have been used since the dawn of man and scientists today have no understanding why they work or even that they exist.
If I had a compound fracture in the middle of the bush with no help available they can slop on whatever they would like as the atlernative is worse.
Skam
It must have worked or they wouldn't be doing it.
Who are we to argue over 10,000 years of aboriginal success.
why it works? Who knows :?: .
There are traditional medical practices that have been used since the dawn of man and scientists today have no understanding why they work or even that they exist.
If I had a compound fracture in the middle of the bush with no help available they can slop on whatever they would like as the atlernative is worse.
Skam
Not always a good idea to trust them (the traditional medical practices) mate. In the 19th century on St Kilda 84 out of 125 children born were dead of umbilical sepsis within 2 weeks of birth. This was caused by the tradition of anointing the umbilicus of newborns with cattle dung!
Must have seemed like a good idea at the time but it was only stopped when a church minister with a bit of knowledge came to the island and explained about bacterial infection.
the old ways aren't always the best.
george
even if it does.. i reckon you will have a bit of a problem finding willing donors or patients for that matter..
Medicine is a science based on trial and error and probability - you try something to see what happens. If it doesn't work, or makes things worse, you can usually tell. But if it works, and then those results are repeatable (maybe with many failures along the way) then it's seen as having a beneficial effect and soemthing "worth trying" or "better than nothing". If you have access to very little then something that gives you a 5% additional chance of survival is indeed "better than nothing". Over the years new technologies and methods replaced the older ones, with the newer ones giving the patient a greater chance of survival. Something that gives you a 5% chances of survival is replaced by something that gives a little more, which is itself replaced by something better.
In the 21st century, something that gives a patient a 5% chance of survival compared to a modern technique that gives you a far greater chance, is seen as a bad gamble. So for even simple stuff like headaches, eating chalk or chewing willow bark gave way to aspirin, paracetamol and ibuprofen ...
Also remember - just because a "remedy" or "cure" is listed here, no one at bcUK is making any statement as to their suitability or safety. If at all possible, seek professional advice, if that's not possible, then the choices are yours!
I had heard of this, not for a broken leg but to encourage the setting and healing of a wound. Think "Doctrine of Signatures". They wanted to encourage a wound to clot and heal and they didn't have elastoplast or butterfly stitches. There was also a kind of magic about mentrual blood, bleeding but from no wound. Different times, different cultures.
Does it work? No idea, but there's more than just blood in mentrual discharge.
Toddy
BIG-TARGET
31-01-2005, 03:27
I had heard of this, not for a broken leg but to encourage the setting and healing of a wound. Think "Doctrine of Signatures". They wanted to encourage a wound to clot and heal and they didn't have elastoplast or butterfly stitches. There was also a kind of magic about mentrual blood, bleeding but from no wound. Different times, different cultures.
Does it work? No idea, but there's more than just blood in mentrual discharge.
Toddy
Only to vampires :?:
jamesraykenney
05-03-2005, 19:19
It must have worked or they wouldn't be doing it.
Who are we to argue over 10,000 years of aboriginal success.
why it works? Who knows :?: .
There are traditional medical practices that have been used since the dawn of man and scientists today have no understanding why they work or even that they exist.
If I had a compound fracture in the middle of the bush with no help available they can slop on whatever they would like as the atlernative is worse.
Skam
From everything I have read, that book is a total and absolute FAKE. The author seemed to take American indian customs and described placed them there! Even used NAMES that were not used there!
RovingArcher
06-03-2005, 02:39
From everything I have read, that book is a total and absolute FAKE. The author seemed to take American indian customs and described placed them there! Even used NAMES that were not used there!
A fiction then eh? :o):
Anyone live in the area so that they can actually talk to a healer and see if there's any validity to it?
The traditional healers methods of healing included nurturing not only the body, but keeping the spiritual contact high and having family and friends around for the emotional support. I get a great deal of strength from my spiritual contact through prayer and ceremony and gain much comfort from my family which includes our tribe of fellow creatures that honor us by living with us. :wink:
George
I think that might work as a type of evolution, 'survival of the fittest'. If the infants have a strong enough immune system to overcome the infection, they will grow to strong and healty adults.
Sounds cruel but no point attempting to raise children in that type of extreme hardship to find they will not survive an infection later in their childhood.
Hootchie
I hear what you're saying - but in the case I'm talking about it was probably down to ignorance. Look here for more info: www.kilda.org.uk Life there was no harder than many other places on the fringes of the uk and most of these other places didn't put their kids through some sort of "trial by infection"!
George
The original intention of the use of the cow dung was fine....strange though it may seem....it literally does help to dry off the cord and prevent infection, BUT....only if the gut bacteria is right.....somehow, the St. Kilda cattle acquired the 'wrong' type of bacteria and that was what was behind the sudden, and it was sudden, horrendous numbers of infant deaths. The minister at the time (can't remember his name, must find my books, they're up the loft) was quite right to create such a fuss over the continued use of a traditional practise. The problem was that because the practice 'used' to work the local women were very reluctant to discontinue it's use. Tradition had (has?) a tremendous hold on the mindset of many peoples.
Work parties go over every year to St. Kilda; archaeology, army, historic, rspb, they do take volunteers, but I believe they expect you to pay something towards the costs. Wonderfully remote though.....could we not just buy an island?
Toddy (having a break from 16th century corsetry :wink: )
this book is not only a complete work of fiction, but has caused an uproar in australia.
please see the following link:
http://trackertrail.com/mutantmessage/index.html
It must have worked or they wouldn't be doing it.
Who are we to argue over 10,000 years of aboriginal success.
Not so, many practices do work, but many make matters worse (sometimes much worse) and are based in a misguided belief in folklore, old wives tales and the blessings of whatever gods you worship.
I would not, under any circumstances, let someone put old menstrual clots onto an open wound of mine.
If you belief in "the wisdom of the ancients" is that unquestioned, go right ahead. But if you develop a sepsis, loose you leg or worse, dont say you weren't warned.
I would caution anyone letting thier reverance for the "old ways" blind them to the fact that many of the old ways were steeped in ignorant mysticism. The leves of disease, infant mortality, disfiguremet, and mortality have NEVER been lower than they are today. ;)
Eric_Methven
25-04-2005, 20:55
They should make a film - a Period drama perhaps!
Eric
firstly they pull the leg to the correct position so that the bone can knit . then the healer opens the other end of the tube and removes a black tar which she put on the open wound liberally !The leg was given a temporay splint and the man got up and carried on with the walkabout !After a few days the tar crumbled off leaving a healed scar .
Pumbaa
a·poc·ry·phal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pkr-fl)
adj.
Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
Erroneous; fictitious: “Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd... raced through Russia's trenches” (W. Bruce Lincoln
On the subject of the medecines of indiginous peoples not always being the best move...
I spent some time with a tribe in the South Pacific last year. We were introduced to a woman (i forget her name) who was a relative of the family i was staying with. She had been suffering from an eye problem (possibly as mundane as short sightedness), she resorted to 'kastom' medicine and is now blind after some bright spark decided to annoint it with lime (of the agricultural variety).
Strangely enough, they found this terribly funny. :confused:
this book is not only a complete work of fiction, but has caused an uproar in australia.
please see the following link:
http://trackertrail.com/mutantmessage/index.html
What an extraordinary link, thanks for that Stuart. People are desperate to find some spiritual depth to their own lives, they continually seek solace and inspiration in other 'tribes' as if they hold some knowledge and insight that we don't, and are eager to believe anything with some degree of mysticism that romanticises yet again native communities, and it's the same with 'old' medicine. But native peoples still warred, they still had their medical traditions that may have killed rather than healed. We forget that we already have our own traditions and community, we simply choose to ignore it, our neighbours, friends, family etc etc. We have access to better medicine, better healthcare, but saying that, I do believe that old medical traditions should not be forgotten, because they can truly help and their magic has largely been forgotten. Magic that can be used and interpreted in a sensible, scientific way as well as an esoteric way. We simply have to ensure that we're not seduced by romanticism and assume that just because it was used in the old ways, it works..!!
Lets wake this thread up a bit.....
The current stem cell research that is creating so much controversy at present may well explain what is actually happening here.
Menstrual clots usually contain an unfertalised egg, of which contain (I would think) contain stem cells.
These cells are being researched by scientists now because of their amazing ability to change into and heal any type of living tissue!
Maybe these guys were practicing what our current society is now only just researching.
...... Just a thought!
Keefy
daveymonkey
01-10-2005, 17:19
There maybe some thing in that ,but as menstrual blood carries a high viral load if the woman has HIV or any form of hepatitis and the clots being put on an open wound :rolleyes: i wouldnt try it! and whatever you do never try to realign the fracture you can tear vessels! Remember a condom just isnt for carrying water ;)
Remember that this whole book a work of fiction! This isn’t the notes of first hand observations from an anthropologist its a made up fantasy for a fictional book written by an author that has never even met an aboriginal person.
See: http://trackertrail.com/mutantmessage/index.html
So debating why the Australian aboriginals might have used this technique is pointless! In all likelihood they never did, it is simply the imaginative construct of a western author writing a story book
Fallowstalker
06-10-2005, 19:16
Lets wake this thread up a bit.....
The current stem cell research that is creating so much controversy at present may well explain what is actually happening here.
Menstrual clots usually contain an unfertalised egg, of which contain (I would think) contain stem cells.
These cells are being researched by scientists now because of their amazing ability to change into and heal any type of living tissue!
Maybe these guys were practicing what our current society is now only just researching.
An unfertilised ovum consists of only one cell with only half the dna.
daveymonkey
06-10-2005, 22:38
i think ive stumbled on a new sub forum, bushcraft scienctists :)
Fallowstalker
06-10-2005, 22:57
I suppose we're all scientists - Isn't bushcraft about questioning, understanding and overcoming? :)
the author (marlo morgan?) 'fessed up to the book being fiction years ago in a series of interviews. too bad...
Remember that this whole book a work of fiction! This isn’t the notes of first hand observations from an anthropologist its a made up fantasy for a fictional book written by an author that has never even met an aboriginal person.
See: http://trackertrail.com/mutantmessage/index.html
So debating why the Australian aboriginals might have used this technique is pointless! In all likelihood they never did, it is simply the imaginative construct of a western author writing a story book
Cheers for the info, Stu. Doesn't sound like my kind of book, to be honest!