View Full Version : Complete budget kit.
Rhapsody
16-01-2005, 19:15
If you were to assemble a new kit for the lowest price possible, what items would you be sticking in your (cheap) rucksack? I figured this might be both a fun thing to think about and a useful resource for thoe of us with light wallets!
Here would be (and practically is :D) mine:
Knife - Frosts Mora - £10 approx. I don't expect there to be a lot of deviation from this one, but other ideas would be welcome.
Chopping - Small army Golok - I got mine for £15. Good and cheap. 'nuff said.
Sleeping Bag - Surplus '58 Pattern bag - £40 seems average.
Rucksack - I'm no expert, but a Web-Tex PLCE is what I use and seems to have been the best thing for the money - £80 <harsh>. This probably isn't the best budget option, but it's certainly a good price for what it is.
Shelter - Cheapest Basha you can find - £10 seems to be the lowest for these. It's a basha, what more do you need?
Cooking - Swedish army Trangia mess set - £10 to £20. A meths stove, a frying pan and a billy can all in one convenient (and cheap) package.
Fire - Scout model Firesteel - £6 or £7. Smaller than the regular sort, but does the job just as well. More useful than if you spent it's price on matches or a zippo, so the firesteel stays even in the budget kit.
Water - Coke bottles! - Free (practically)! It's a little-known fact, but bottles from other drinks work just as well.
Eating utensils - Carve a spoon! - Will cost you a small tin of elbow grease. It's what you bought your knife for, anyway!
Anyway, what would your budget kit be? Feel free to add/remove categories as you wish.
If we're looking for the best budget buys that are good enough that you won't throw away once you get a little more dosh:
The zebra billy's from stockpots are astounding value but tough enough to last years, steel rather than alloy (more durable, easier to keep clean) - £10 -12 for two.
Make a photon type meths burner from two drinks cans or buy a £2 stainless steel cutley drainer from Ikea to use as a small charcoal brazier.
Another knife option is to buy a budget scandi blade from www.brisa.fi and fit your own handle. Plenty of good production knife blades to choose from.
tenbears10
16-01-2005, 19:48
Check out maddave's review of a very good priced rucksack. It's only 33 litres but if you pack light that can be enough and they make bigger ones.
http://www.bushcraftuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=3815&highlight=forces
Clothing: anything surplus. you can get a whole outfit (trs, shirt and field jacket) for £20 here (http://www.the-outdoor.co.uk/ishop/853/shopscr7.html) ok so you might look like a wannabe soldier but it is cheap and hardwearing.
Bill
RovingArcher
16-01-2005, 22:25
Items like the ruck, drum liners, poncho and liner and bottle of bleach that weren't paid for, but I listed them like they were. I also listed items like tinder, stove, fuel and sleep pad that I probably wouldn't have with me on an average outing, but might during colder weather.
$4.00 East German combat ruck
$8.00 Frost Mora SwAK
$2.50 7 strand parachute shroud line 25'
$0.50 2 each, industrial 55gal. drum liners
$9.00 USGI issue canteen, cover and canteen cup
$5.00 German issue Esbit stove w/fuel
$9.00 German issue utility knife w/saw
$9.00 Ridge Rest 3/4 sleep pad
$15.00 USGI poncho w/liner
$2.50 Boy Scouts Hotspark ferro rod
$2.00 Spark-lite tinder
$1.00 Plastic squeeze dripper bottle of bleach
$2.00 bandana
$2.50 pocket/keychain LED light
$3.00 small starflash mirror
$0.00 hiking staff
$1.50 fish spear head
$2.00 fishing/traping/sewing kit
$5.00 first aid kit w/meds
$2.00 tea/condiments/spices
$0.50 TP
_____________
arctic hobo
16-01-2005, 22:56
Check out maddave's review of a very good priced rucksack. It's only 33 litres but if you pack light that can be enough and they make bigger ones.
http://www.bushcraftuk.net/community/showthread.php?t=3815&highlight=forces
Clothing: anything surplus. you can get a whole outfit (trs, shirt and field jacket) for £20 here (http://www.the-outdoor.co.uk/ishop/853/shopscr7.html) ok so you might look like a wannabe soldier but it is cheap and hardwearing.
Bill
That outfit is good value, I have all them but between them they were 45 quid :nono:
Those BCB survival tins have almost everything you could need, and are 15 quid. You get a rubbish knife, but it has strictly speaking everything. I love mine, boy-scouty though it be.
Bob Hurley
17-01-2005, 00:51
Please bear in mind that I am in the Appalachian Mountains in America, and can have a campfire as long as it's properly tended.
Knife - Model 301 Buck large Stockman, save the heavy cutting for the tomahawk. I don't like to use a baton on knives anyway. $30 (you can save some money here by chosing a Mora or Opinel, my choice is just personal taste - I always carry a strong sharp pocketknife anyway)
Chopping - Small forged tomahawk and a 6" fine-cut file to keep it sharp. Be sure to get a small, light one with a decently long handle. A tomahawk works on "head speed" just like a golf club, it doesn't need to be as heavy as a belt axe. $25
Sleeping Bag - Surplus 100% wool blankets (2), I normally just carry one. You can lay beside the fire without worrying about catching yourself alight if they're pure wool. $20 for two
Rucksack - I normally just roll up my kit in my blanket and use a tumpline to carry it. Buy a wide belt of real leather at a thrift shop, and use paracord or something similar for the ties. $2
Shelter - Military poncho, also gives you decent rainwear. I pitch mine like a Whelen tent in front of the fire. $15
Cooking - Clean up a couple of "tin" cans (not the ones with plastic lining) and use coathanger wire to make a bail for them, you can punch the two holes for the bail with a common nail. Choose sizes carefully and you can make a nesting set. Free
Fire - Get a couple of the piezoelectric BIC lighters, getting wet doesn't seem to bother them. Add a small firesteel or pack of good waterproof matches as backup. Keep a ziplock baggie full of good dry small tinder and one of the BICs in your pack, you'll be glad you did. $5
Water - PET plastic soft drink bottles work great, come in a variety of sizes, and can be recycled. Free
Food - I can usually scare up plenty from home. Boil beef until done but still tough, remove from water quickly and let dry thoroughly, it keeps a couple of days easily and tastes a lot better than it sounds. Cheese, some kind of heavy bread, and maybe a few sweets. If you really want to cook take rice, lentils, steel-cut oats, and similar foods, add a boullion cube for more salt and flavour. If I'm planning on cooking I take salt pork in some form - bacon, dry-cure ham, etc.
Not free, but no special purchases of expensive trail food needed.
Eating utensils - Pick up a couple of heavy plastic spoons at one of the fast food places (some of them here have good ones) until you have time to carve a wooden one you like. I stir with a stick, eat with the plastic spoon, so there isn't a melting problem. Free
Total of $97 if you don't already have some of the kit. I think that's about 50 pounds Sterling.
ChrisKavanaugh
17-01-2005, 07:30
For those who are unfamiliar with a Tumpline, it is a broad strap attached to 2 bearing lines connected to your backpack or any load. The strap fits on your forehead. It is a worldwide system and very effective. This thread has appeared in several forums as a hypothetical buying and scrounging exercise if you lose everything and have a limited budget.It's always helpfull for people just starting out and overwhelmed by equippment lists and high end items. We seem caught between the extremes of ultralight superscouts with a knife and people looking like walking swiss army knives with umbilical paracord locking us to a pack like a astronaut's spacesuit. :pack:
Surely a budget kit for bushcraft would be
Knife, whatever was available
Blanket or two
Billy can - made of any suitable can.
I cant help but find this thread as proof of the fact we seem to be loosing site of the idea that bushcraft is (in theory) carry less by knowing more. Of course a light camping kit or backpacking kit is a different story.
jamesdevine
17-01-2005, 10:36
I was reading through this tread and started to thinking the same way as Gary above.
But then there are always exceptions. Here fires would be a no no in most locations so a Swedish army mess kit is my answer with a Mora and some matchs would the perfect starter kit for a new bushcrafter.
But if you are you are just intending on bushcrafting and you have a wood were fires are allowed (and you have cracked fire by friction) then a knife a pot and your cloths should be all you need.
Just my thoughts
James
Great Pebble
17-01-2005, 10:45
Possibly the most realistic way of looking at it, depending your viewpoint of course, is that to start off you need :- Knife, tent, sleeping bag, stove, kip mat, cuddly toy, rucksack and all the other gubbins. Then you can gradually work your way down to the knife, pot and clothes.
If your first experience of the outdoors is with the "minimal" kit listed the affair with the woods is likely to be short lived IMO.
That makes sence to me Great Pebble,reading the posts on budget kit non seems to have a really excessive amount of gear.Iam still building mine slowly due to a lack of funds but it looks something like Rhapsodys.
If your first experience of the outdoors is with the "minimal" kit listed the affair with the woods is likely to be short lived IMO.
I'm not sure I really agree. If it was summer and you took the very basics - knife, a waterproof (just in case), some basic food and drink and a billy/stove and say a US poncho, you could have a very pleasant experience that would then lead you to buying all the other bits. When I worked at the shop it was generally those peole who came in a baught everything in one go that ended up hating it. Those that just got the very basics forst tiem round tended to be the ones that got hooked and then eventually moaned they need a landie before goign back to the basics.
Paganwolf
17-01-2005, 12:01
I've spent a few days recently with Bob Cooper an Australian Bushcraft/survival expert, all the kit you need for his courses fits in a container the size of a soap dish- the aborigines think thats luxury! when i read the first couple of answers in this thread i thought Knife,mabey small axe or lekku, blanket, billycan and the clothes i stand in, after all bush craft is not about how much spanky new kit you can carry its about the knowledge you carry in your head, im as guilty as all with the kit fetishes and its all lovely to have but if you have the knowledge to build a good shelter no matter which terrain your in and the knowledge to light a fire and something to cook and make your water safe in, and hunting/gathering knowledge ( possible in some parts of the world still! :lol: ) then what more do you need :?: its like sleeping in a bunk in a youth hostel or sleeping in a plush bed in Claridges- neccesity, comfort or luxury are the questions asked when looking at kit.The laws have chainged bushcraft to minimalistic camping i fear as few places allow hunting/fishing and even lighting a camp fire and most woodlands in the uk are private property/ park land, and wooded campsites are few and far between. Any way any one know of a good space age micro techno tent with titanium poles going cheap :?: :rolmao:
bambodoggy
17-01-2005, 12:17
I'm not sure I really agree. If it was summer and you took the very basics - knife, a waterproof (just in case), some basic food and drink and a billy/stove and say a US poncho, you could have a very pleasant experience that would then lead you to buying all the other bits. When I worked at the shop it was generally those peole who came in a baught everything in one go that ended up hating it. Those that just got the very basics forst tiem round tended to be the ones that got hooked and then eventually moaned they need a landie before goign back to the basics.
I think this is due to the fact that anyone willing to "give it a go" with the minimum of cheap kits has to really want to do it anyway and so will be more likely to enjoy it, then as they get better they collect kit along the way....the only small worry is they will forget how they used to cope before they had this kit but I don't think this is a major issue.
Those that can afford to "buy the lot" aren't generally that bothered about the costs and so if they don't like it...."tough"...."so what?". Also for the first group, as they get more kit so they are more comfortable and enjoy it more and each trip re-affirms their love of it all. The "buy the lot" brigade have nowhere to move to once they haven't enjoyed their first few nights out....can't buy better kit to enjoy it as they have the best already....
World of difference in having the kit and knowing how to use it....a £200 arctic sleeping bag won't be much good if you lay it in a ditch that's 4" deep in water by morning....etc.
I tend to also agree with Great Pebble....if they have bad kit they may not enjoy the wilds so much unless they have good training and/or supervision the first few times....after that they should be right :o):
I suppose the holy grail is to just go out with your knife and live well for as long as you wish....or even without your knife maybe...but as JP says, the current laws more or less stop you from doing this in the UK.
I agree with you mate, just think it does depend on the circumstances. And on that extremely rare but oft mentioned creature 'common sense'.
Must organise a hunting party one day to see if we can actually track the beasty down and preserve it for prosperity...
Interest note there Bambam, Last year I was camping with my son and his mate over a local site near Epping forest, we had the usual set up and this guy turned up and pitched next to us. The guy looked like Van Diesel with a survival vest and timberlands, out the back of his shiny jeep cheroke he pulled a tent which he opened u, read the instructions (once or twice) and then pitched.
Sitting by my campfire I lended back against a tree stump and pretneded to read as I watched him and his lad unload one shiny new thing after another. It was like watching Millets take a delivery.
Anyway eventually he strolled over and said hello asked a few questions about my tripod and kettle and then wandered off to prepare a couple of pot noodles while asnwering several calls on him mobile.
Dusk decended on the site and while me and the boys settled down to cooking a few suasages on a stick I noticed matey load his jeep with sun and disappear into the sunset.
I thought no more of it until next morning they repaired packed their gear back in the Jeep and prepared to leave. Before he leaft the guy came over and asked me how we slept there?
I told him just fine - he shook his head mumbled something about us being mad and that he had had to go to a B+B both wandering off and leaving.
My son watched them go and said (as kids do) 'I reckon he's a part time dad, still with all the new gear you've have thought he'd be happy!'
And he was right and this echo's some of what has been said above - the guy thought it a good idea to take his son camping (a noble jesture) so he had gone out and bought all he thought he would need but he lacked the one thing which is most important,
A love of the outdoors and the ability to adapt to a different comfort level! All the best kit in the world will never be good enough if its not your thing!
All the best kit in the world will never be good enough if its not your thing!
100% spot on Gary. ANd applies to anything - bushcraft, fishing, dresssmaking, anything.
All the best kit in the world will never be good enough if its not your thing!
That's right - but you can spot those unco,fortable with the outdoors because they try to recreate indoors out - big tents, grills, TV, electric light ... :roll:
A while back I remember these two blokes dressed in fatigues trying to light a disposable BBQ with a firesteel ... they were there for what must have been 20 mins before they gave up. In that time my kids had come up with several suggestions as to ow it could have been done.
:rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao: Priceless Adi! Absolutley priceless!
Womble told me about a similar thing about a guy who would only go camping with his huge self erecting tent, gas bbq, satelite TV, sun lounger, etc. Makes you wonder what the point was?
what... you mean my satellite tv isn't strictly bushcraft kit?? :smiley-fa
We REALLY need a qwertying forehead smiley...
tenbears10
17-01-2005, 13:19
OK guys I agree that bushcraft is not about taking all the flash kit. I was camping in europe and we got all the way to spain only to stay on a fairly big site with a caravan next to us watching 'Who wats to be a millionaire' with a satellite dish bigger than my tent.
The way I saw this thread is that we were trying to suggest ways to allow people to get out and about without spending loads on flash kit. Look at the posts people suggesting free ways to carry water, cheap mora knives and bashas.
If we started a thread saying 'if you are brand new to bushcraft and don't have much money go and spend a week in the outdoors in the winter with a fire steel and a blanket' it would be modded for the dangerous advice it would clearly be.
It is the aim to get to a stage where you can live outdoors with minimal kit but beginners can't do that, it would be dangerous. The idea was suggest ways to learn without spending lots of money and in safety.
Bill
I cant help but find this thread as proof of the fact we seem to be loosing site of the idea that bushcraft is (in theory) carry less by knowing more. Of course a light camping kit or backpacking kit is a different story.
I think bushcraft more and more are starting to look like some kind of advanced camping were people sit around a fire and make spoons. Sometyime it feels like you will have to be a millionaire to buy all the kit a bushcrafter should have. Comfort does not come with expensive kit it comes with knowledge. You can sleep really comfortable in nature if you what and how to do it. You don“t even need to build some kind of advanced shelter or make a big fire, sleeping under a tree and using the clothes on your body correctly you will have sleep very well for a night.
I feel it“s time for bushcraft revoulotion, time to stop shopping all these things and time to start go out in the forest kike kids do, with a lot of imagination and just enjoy everything that is out in the forest.
Fair enough Bill, and I apologise as I am to blame for taking it off topic.
However maybe the problem is one of prospective - What is a good budget kit for camping to practice bushcraft? ,aybe would be a better answer - maybe? :?:
And heres another thought - going by the kit lists suggestions and bearing in mind the laws of the land - whats the difference between Bushcraft and camping (light weight or otherwise), especially with regards to kit.
Viking posted the above as I posted this but that is a good point Johan! And heres another thought, if you were into 'the craft' but had never heard of Mearsy and had never had any media exposure what so ever (and that includes this site) what kit would you have? More importantly would that kit be better or worse for nothing having seen 'world of survival' or similar?
I think your right btw Johan - 'primitive living, a step beyond Bushcraft!!'
If we started a thread saying 'if you are brand new to bushcraft and don't have much money go and spend a week in the outdoors in the winter with a fire steel and a blanket' it would be modded for the dangerous advice it would clearly be.
Bill
Why start with a week, why not try a day first, then spend a night. You will learn a lot this way and when you need clothes and kit for a week in the arctic you will probably have that much knowledge to buy the right kit. Instead of start buying things start seeing, hearing and feel, because that were it all starts.
bambodoggy
17-01-2005, 13:28
All the best kit in the world will never be good enough if its not your thing!
For goodness sake don't anyone ever mention this to my wife true as it is....I'm having a hard enough time getting her to come out with me into the woods as it is!!!! :rolmao: :rolmao: :rolmao:
Managed stage one this weekend....got her to join me walking the hound in the local woods...usually she'll only come if we're just nipping to the local park.
Stage two is a dusk walk ending just in the dark and so on until I turn her into a bushbabe!!! :-P
tenbears10
17-01-2005, 14:00
Gary and Johan,
I agree with what you are saying and that is one of the reasons I'm coming to Vildmark with you guys, so I can learn and do away with some of the kit I currently feel I need to get by warm and dry (or at least not dangerously cold and wet).
It will be interesting to see what people bring to Ashdown and Sweden with them. I know I for one will bring too much stuff, it is a disease. I take too much if I go to my mates house for the weekend.
I think your point about camping to practice bushcraft is a good one and possibly a better description of what this thread is suggesting kit for. Maybe you can't call it bushcraft if you sleep in a tent (even a cheap one) :?:
Bill
Gary and Johan,
I agree with what you are saying and that is one of the reasons I'm coming to Vildmark with you guys, so I can learn and do away with some of the kit I currently feel I need to get by warm and dry (or at least not dangerously cold and wet).
It will be interesting to see what people bring to Ashdown and Sweden with them. I know I for one will bring too much stuff, it is a disease. I take too much if I go to my mates house for the weekend.
I think your point about camping to practice bushcraft is a good one and possibly a better description of what this thread is suggesting kit for. Maybe you can't call it bushcraft if you sleep in a tent (even a cheap one) :?:
Bill
******, that mean I have the leave the kitchen sink at home now!! :rolmao:
As for carrying to much - we are all guilt of that Bill, interestingly enough I try to whittle my gear down as much as possible and yet sometimes even carrying a daysack with a waterbootle and a folding saw strikes me as carrying to much? Again too much is a metter of prespective and ability - one tempers the other!
tenbears10
17-01-2005, 14:05
I'm bringing 3 kettles and two frying pans to Ashdown. Fit that in a soap dish JP. :shock:
Bill
I'm bringing 3 kettles and two frying pans to Ashdown. Fit that in a soap dish JP. :shock:
Bill
MMM I'LL BRING A HAMMER AND A FURNACE I AM SURE WE COULD MANAGE!!
Paganwolf
17-01-2005, 14:15
I'm bringing 3 kettles and two frying pans to Ashdown. Fit that in a soap dish JP. :shock:
Bill
My wallet will be open and waiting for you :wink: glad you managed to get the frying pans matey, PM me how much i owe you :biggthump
bambodoggy
17-01-2005, 14:17
It will be interesting to see what people bring to Ashdown and Sweden with them. I know I for one will bring too much stuff, it is a disease. I take too much if I go to my mates house for the weekend.
Hope I've got the right idea for Ashdown....I was going to bring quite a few things that I thought people might want to play with...my nightvision scope or at least monocular....my gortex double hooped bivvi and that sort of stuff.
I'll be crashing under my basha (as it's my fav way to dossdown) but expensive kit has it's place and I figured if anyone wants to have a go before they buy and I have it for them to use then...why not.
Please don't think I need all the stuff I was planning to bring (ok...not that much really)....I'm bringing it to play with..... hope that's the right idea? :lol:
Hope I've got the right idea for Ashdown....I was going to bring quite a few things that I thought people might want to play with...my nightvision scope or at least monocular....my gortex double hooped bivvi and that sort of stuff.
I'll be crashing under my basha (as it's my fav way to dossdown) but expensive kit has it's place and I figured if anyone wants to have a go before they buy and I have it for them to use then...why not.
Please don't think I need all the stuff I was planning to bring (ok...not that much really)....I'm bringing it to play with..... hope that's the right idea? :lol:
Bambam thats is the right idea mate. :offtopic: The ashdown thing is a social, and as JP put it, kit fondle as well as a get together of like minded folk. That said its not a bring and buy sale so no commercialism will be allowed.
Bill PM Paganwolf how much I owe you too!! (might work!!)
tenbears10
17-01-2005, 14:42
Ok back to cheap kit. sorry for mentioning Ashdown in the thread.
:pack: how much to look like this?
Bill
bambodoggy
17-01-2005, 14:46
Cool as....wasn't planning to sell anything :o):
Bill....I think the surgery to pay for having your head reshaped and turned yellow make it too expensive!!! lol :rolmao:
Bills head is yellow and round, thats a self portrait! :rolmao: :nana:
As a new comer to bushcraft i have noticed this and i really don't mean to offend anyone here just to remind people what its like starting out. some times it gets a bit clicky and snoby with the i only need a tooth pick and a bit of string to live any-ware
and these are sometimes the same people on other threads recommending all sorts of things or even selling it if you feel they don't need it don't sell it and exploit new comers you cant come over as the spirited at one with the world one minute and then patronise people who think they might need a bit more help and kit, that you probable sold to them the next. it would have been more useful if you just said what you thought was a good cheep beginners kit with bits they could add or take away as there skills developed or there knowledge grew from kind non patronising people who wanted to help and not just tell us how wonderful they are.
arctic hobo
17-01-2005, 18:40
Bushcraft kit isn't just taking a firesteel because you can't be bothered to make a bowdrill with your only piece of equipment (a knife) every time you go out (I certainly can't I'm afraid). It's also about things like clothing - I just couldn't do bushcraft in my street clothes, just the same as I couldn't take my girlfriend out to dinner in my bushcrafty clothes. I'd get cold, they'd rip etc etc.
As a new comer to bushcraft i have noticed this and i really don't mean to offend anyone here just to remind people what its like starting out. some times it gets a bit clicky and snoby with the i only need a tooth pick and a bit of string to live any-ware
and these are sometimes the same people on other threads recommending all sorts of things or even selling it if you feel they don't need it don't sell it and exploit new comers you cant come over as the spirited at one with the world one minute and then patronise people who think they might need a bit more help and kit, that you probable sold to them the next. it would have been more useful if you just said what you thought was a good cheep beginners kit with bits they could add or take away as there skills developed or there knowledge grew from kind non patronising people who wanted to help and not just tell us how wonderful they are.
I think that bushcraft is a state of being comfortable in the outdoors - if people like kit (I like kit) and it takes them into the outdoors then I think that kit is a good thing (as long as someone is not trying to carry more than they can and looks at their 100lb pack in disgust). What I've noticed is that as I carry less essentials I carry more luxuries and I don't care what others say. Each to their own.
Beginners will no doubt need different kit to those who've been outdoors many times and I certainly wouldn't recommend that anyone carry less (or more) than they are comfortable with. If one person needs a lot of kit and another needs only a pocketknife then I think that's fine. The kit is just a tool to facilitate people getting into the outdoors.
The outdoors is not a competition and bushcraftUK is certainly not about people endangering themselves because they either feel that they have to abandon kit because to carry it is "not bushcraft".
When I started out I had a Swiss Army Knife, an old canvas tarp, a couple of wool blankets, a tin to cook in, a bottle to carry water in (old lemonade) and a few odds and ends like matches and string. This was thrown into a canvas satchel. It cost me next to nothing and I had a great time.
The main thing to do is enjoy the outdoors!
As a new comer to bushcraft i have noticed this and i really don't mean to offend anyone here just to remind people what its like starting out. some times it gets a bit clicky and snoby with the i only need a tooth pick and a bit of string to live any-ware
and these are sometimes the same people on other threads recommending all sorts of things or even selling it if you feel they don't need it don't sell it and exploit new comers you cant come over as the spirited at one with the world one minute and then patronise people who think they might need a bit more help and kit, that you probable sold to them the next. it would have been more useful if you just said what you thought was a good cheep beginners kit with bits they could add or take away as there skills developed or there knowledge grew from kind non patronising people who wanted to help and not just tell us how wonderful they are.
Mal, nobody is being patronizing. There are no right or wrong answers here, the kit you carry is the kit you carry some carry more some carry less - no one has all the answers.
Much of bushcraft is about ideals - the ideal is to carry as little as possible and we all strive to reach this end but that said (as James pointed out) fires are illegal so we all have to carry a stove, making a primitive shelter is hard work and ecologically destructive so we generally sleep under a hootchie or tent but ideally we would all like to do otherwise - as mentioned above the question should have been ;What is the complete budget kit for practicing bushcraft.'
As for people selling stuff ect - most people (if asked) will advise you as to what they think you need - but that is only thier advise and if you doubt that advise ask someone with no vested intrest for a second opinion.
If you were to read every thread and buy every item spoken about on this forum you would soon have a house full of gear and more knives than the royal armouries medievil section. Gear maketh not the man and you should always temper your buying with common sense.
Of course, I would imagine, all of us on here have bought things we didnt need before that in a away is also part of the learning curve after all how can you know a good knife unless you have owned a few bad ones, even when attending a course you should remember that the information you are given on kit is only that which works for your instructor it might not necessarily be what works for you.
Unfortunately there are no answers - there is no perfect kit.
Great Pebble
17-01-2005, 19:41
I just see remarkably few folks getting up one morning and deciding "I'm going to be a buschcrafter like that chap, Mears, Tarp, billy and a knife is all I need"
And among those who do, sorry, but if the first time you head out, even for a single overnight, if your total experience is Ray's TV shows and a couple of books you've read then your first "bushcraft" trip is likely to be cold, hungry and uncomfortable. You meet the odd person that thrives on that kind of thing, but they're few and far between for most it would be an exercise in endurance. Not apt to warrant a second go.
If on the other hand they've a tent,doss bag, stove, tin of beans etc. then at least they're likely to be warm, fed and rested. The practicing of bushcraft-y activities under these circumstance are fun and as skills develop people are able to judge for themselves those things that they no longer need.
Rhapsody
17-01-2005, 19:53
Surely a budget kit for bushcraft would be
Knife, whatever was available
Blanket or two
Billy can - made of any suitable can.
I cant help but find this thread as proof of the fact we seem to be loosing site of the idea that bushcraft is (in theory) carry less by knowing more. Of course a light camping kit or backpacking kit is a different story.
But in order to learn more we surely have to get out there in the wilderness? And without a decent kit, the person with a lot to learn would surely be up the metaphorical creek?
I totally agree that the all that the experienced bushcrafter needs is contained in your list, and in studying bushcraft I think we are all aiming to reach that stage, but it is just not enough for someone who is still going through the learning process. I myself would love to be able to enter the woods with the kit you mention and live comfortably for a week but the truth is that I, and those in my position, simply don't have the knowledge to do so... yet. My philosophy for learning Bushcraft is that of occam's razor; removing that which isn't vital. Matches were vital to me until I learned of good natural tinders for use with sparks and a basha was necessary until I could make a good enough shelter out of natural materials. My firesteel will be by my side until I can reliably start a friction fire and I'll be taking any food I need with me until I know the difference between what'll feed me and what'll kill me. You have to learn by doing and until you can 'do' reliably you'll always need something to fill the gap in your skills.
You put it so much nicer than me i totally agree with every thing you have said and sorry if i went into one
Mal
I would list
knife- Mora (infact the morew I play with expensive knives the more I think this may be the best one)
*plastic tarp from a market
*an army blanket
*a pot, I may have to go back to a large baked bean tin for a while
*food, things which you can add to from around you would be best
*pop bottles for water
*fire lighting kit (even if you can use a firedrill I'd take this just incase)
ChrisKavanaugh
17-01-2005, 20:25
O.k., a few pointers for new people. We have various outdoor shops that rent gear. I knew somebody who rented a sleeping bag. Sadly,it had not been laundered and was full of poison oak oils. So Rule #1 anything bought or borrowed should be thoroughly cleaned and given a simple going over before use. Rule #2 commercial kit is bright and gawdy. Red is a perrennial favourite. It does marvels for a photograph and after a few polar expeditions used it became a image item. Many people prefer subdued colours. It doesn't have to be the latest digitally created cammies either. There is a grey-green set of work fatigues that seem to render people invisible anywhere and I've tripped over people in woolen plaids. This is a tossup. If your hurt or lost looking like a peacock on LSD is a plus. We have a recent thread at ETS about a hunter. He was in full cammies and the searchers couldn't see him! He had to remove his white underwear and wave it :lol: Nobone is immune to disaster or trouble. Buy a big bright pink,orange or mellow yellow I love Donovan square of cloth at the least. You can hide it until needed. Rule #3 It can actually get crowded out there. Not so much in numbers, but in philosophies and use. I was with an Audoban bird watching group. They got very upset when some upland hunters passed with a string of pheasants. I GOT UPSET when one of my companions goosestepped all over a small stand of rare native plants trying to see a siberian pelican or something. So listen to people out there. They may turn out to be a landowner or a world famous biologist ( or a marijuana grower)
arctic hobo
17-01-2005, 21:05
...your first "bushcraft" trip is likely to be cold, hungry and uncomfortable. You meet the odd person that thrives on that kind of thing, but they're few and far between
Hello! :wave:
My tip to anyone after a cheap tent would be to ask local youth groups if they're chucking any tents away, then intercept them or rescue them from the bin.
(Of course they may not be completey waterproof, and need to be checked thoroughly for mouse nibbles and nests and a complete set of poles that will hold it up.)
Celtic Dragon
17-01-2005, 23:59
I've got a £30 single skin tent from Argos, ok, its never going to be up to the worst of weather, but its kept me dry after I reproofed all the seams with fabsil. Its even stood up to all that snow we had this time last year!!!
I also managed to snag UK camo pattern hoochie of Ebay for £15.
Great Pebble
18-01-2005, 10:00
:wave: Hello!
There's a name for people like you! :shock:
bambodoggy
18-01-2005, 10:38
I agree with most of what everyone has said below, I think all are right to some extent.
The Ideal...or certainly my ideal is to go out with knife only and stay as long as I like without issues of food or shelter and all that it entails...I'm about 60% confident I could do it now maybe more but I don't and haven't tried yet mainly due to the same concerns Gary points out about enviromental impact of natural camp set up....not so bad once you're sorted but the set up takes a bit of hacking etc.
I also agree that most first timers (Chris excluded... :wink: ) need a little more kit to make there first few trips out more fun but this isn't always the case. Many is the time that me and couple of mates all said we were staying at each others houses and just walked into the woods near us and built a small fire and stayed there for the night....no sleep at all, just chatting and joking....having our first ciggy's (we were only 13 or 14 at the time!!!!!). The only "Bushcraft" kit we had was a box of matches and that was more to light the fags we'd nicked from my mates dad. We always had a great time and were still doing this up to when we left school. To be fair we only did it in the summer and in nice weather but then again we were only wearing jeans and woolly jumper...this was my first experience of bushcrafting alone, other than this it was always with a cub or scout leader. It was special because we could do what we wanted...it didn't matter that we didn't do anymore than sit and chat...it was our choice.
I think the thread is a good one and my basic and budget kit would be:
knife (folder will do) (50p at car boot sale)
fire steel (can be the cheap £4 one...doesn't have to be the Swedish Army)
Old empty large bean tin (Free)
water bottle (old coke bottle is cool and free)
Old army blanket (£4 to £8 or free if you happen to have one)
Rain top (Ideal is gortex but doesn't have to be...could use old army Poncho - £10ish)
Total kit price: £22.50 (top costs used) But the above it just for me. If I was taking my wife (if only) then I'd take a shed load more to make her more comfortable. I think a beginner would be fine with the above kit provided they either read up or were shown how to get the best from those bits and bobs.
And having said all of the above I LOVE shinney new kit and so have loads of it!!!!! lol :rolmao:
http://img40.exs.cx/img40/6881/thisthreadrocks4pg.jpg
We can all buy loads of kit and like Bambodoggy I like shiny things too, but you can get away with surprisingly little. An army blanket will keep you warm and also double as a haversack to carry your stuff in. The key is to have many uses for one thing and see your kit on a basic level.. For example.. A Zebra billy is just a tin....A posh tin but a tin all the same. A Norrona rucksack is just a bag for putting stuff in and a Granny B is just an axe. The native american peoples managed OK without stainless steel, gore tex or the latest technical footwear. It's just a state of mind. Now I'm not having a go at the good stuff, indeed I own some nice gear and it makes me very comfy when I am out, all I'm saying is, it's not neccessary to have all the latest bells & whistles to enjoy yourself in the woods... Just enough to be comfy with !! :biggthump
Absolutely. Totally agree with you. Some of my kit is pretty old and I'm not going to upgrade as:
its still good.
it does more than one job.
why should I buy a new shiny one (at ludicrous prices) when this one still works?
New 'improved', doesn't necessarily mean 'better'. But its a great marketing word.
And by using multi-functional (ok it only took me 5 attempts to spell) kit, you reduce weight, volume and price. And its a few less things to lose or bust.
But... by reducing kit and using multi-functional kit, if it breaks or falls down that ravine, unless you know how to work around it...
So no matter how much kit you have - minimalist or string-of-sherpas, you still need to have the basic knowledge to work with and without the kit you carry.
Budget kit(summer only):
Build debris hut/kennel - no need for blanket!
Knap yourself a cutting edge - no need for knife!
Make a bow drill set, light fire, dig clay, make pot and fire it - no need for billy can!
OK I'm being a little facetious but it's a way of echoing what Gary said:
I cant help but find this thread as proof of the fact we seem to be loosing site of the idea that bushcraft is (in theory) carry less by knowing more.
By increasing your knowledge and learning to improvise you can do away with a lot of the knick-knacks we all seem to lug round with us (I'm not pointing fingers as I'm as guilty as the rest). As an example my boss told me once how when he was a child sometimes he didn't have a pocket knife with him and when he was building a den he'd need to cut some string. It was a sandstone area so no sharp rocks and it wasn't safe to carry a piece of broken glass so he'd just pull the string tight round one rock and bash hell out of the string with another rock until the string broke. Took a while but the string got 'cut'.
I'm not saying you should cut string with a blunt rock but you can do a great deal with very little if you think of alternative ways to get to the desured end.
arctic hobo
18-01-2005, 17:23
There's a name for people like you! :shock:
... masochists? :o):
Seriously though, I'm practical, not a hardnut. I don't ditch kit because I like getting cold/wet/tired, I just don't mind them much. Plus many of the favourite places in the world are cold and\or wet, so I just put up with them because it's worth it. After a few times, you just get used to it and it's normal.
I spent the best part of week living with nothing more than the clothes I stood up in, a knife,saw,billy,1 snare,4 fishing hooks,20m of line and 2 fishing lures, and thats your lot.
We were staying where we could fish for brown trout, snare rabbits,had a good source of carbohydrates ( cattails).
A lot of hard work was needed building the shelter, gathering food, maintaining the fire and as it rained for most of the week, keeping dry.
I learnt a hell of lot doing this, the main points are, yes you can practice bushcraft and be comfortable with the minimum of gear.But if you can only get out for one or two days at a time it is much easier to take a shelter than build one, have some food items with you and add to them by foraging.
I think as always it is best to find your own way, if you like a fair amount of gear and are prepared to carry it good luck to you,for the minimalists, if thats the path you wish to follow thats good too.
For myself, a balance between comfort, time, enjoyment, weight, is what I am striving for, I'll let you know when I get there.
Mr Cissey
18-01-2005, 17:29
Oi Not Bob! That was my string cutting method that I was going to market to the kind of people who buy ready made bow drill sets; I wouldn't have bl**dy told you if I'd known you were going to tell other people about it.
SteveA , when you get there mate. Send us directions...:o):
:rolmao: :rolmao: :nana:
Jak, do your own thing mate, we are all individuals.We should set our own targets and ambitions and aim for those, anyone elses, I can take on board, learn from it and use what suits me, if someone wants to sleep under a hanky fine but I think it also valid that some people may wish to use a hammock, hootchi, tent, or whatever and I would not Knock them for it,nor any of the other stuff people use.If they think it is valid for them, good,other people have their own choice to use it or not and I would not take a view of I'm better than you because I use b....ger all to achieve my aims and you lot need all that gear, maybe their aims are not the same as mine. :?:
Save some of that juice for me !!
Don't worry mate. I decided to walk my own path long ago and find my own solutions.
After-all, what can you truly achieve and call your own if you walk another mans shadow?
I think the thing with kit is:
First you have only a few but good items
Next you start buying all you can get your hands on and spend a smalla fortune doing this.
Bu in the end you go back to the few but good kit that you had from the start.
If I was going to start with bushcrafting or recommend kit to anyone I would start looking around what I got before I bought anything, friends and family often have lots of old gear laying around that they will be more then happy to get rid off. Look in surplus and second hand shops there you can make som real bargains.
Knife - most people have one otherwise there is always someone who has been doing this for a while and has a knife too many.
Pot - any old tin can will do, in secon hand store you can often find old coffe tins in diffrent sizes.
Sleeping - an old blanket, 2 plastic bags and dry grass (lots of options), a tarp does not have be an axpensive hootchie or basha look for plastic tarps that is used to cover cars and boats, they are really cheap and work great.
Fire - Matches are cheap and most people have them at home
Waterproofs - if you don“t have any, use a pastic bag as a ponco or fins an old tarp and make a poncho out of it
Clothes - What do you have home, look for wool, poly cotton and army surplus and second hand stores but don“t be afraid to use cotton as long it“s summer you will get by just fine.
Rucksack - Make yor own, all you need is three sticks some and some cord and some old sack (or and old sweater) use your imiganition. Otherwise you can get swedisj 35 litre frame packs cheap or why not an old 70 litre used for about the same price.
Other kit - Look around you at home, what do you got, what more do you really need?
If there are any new swedes that want more tips on exactly what to buy pm me and I will give you some more tips.
The only bits of kit that I wont skimp on are my pack, my boots and the the knife. But I keep thinking maybe I should go back to a mora :yikes:
The only reason for the boots is you should always have good footwear, I spent £15 on some boots but they are good for my feet. The pack is beacsue when your camping you start off with heavy weight stuff you want a good pack that wont do your back in. This is good for you not the most expensive one you can find
So, nobody is including first aid kits? :shock:
Rhapsody
18-01-2005, 19:24
First aid kits are for the weak! If I injure myself in the woods then simply I maul off the affected limb and cauterise it by setting my face on fire and rubbing mit against the wound at the speed of sound! There's no more effective way to prove your manliness!
So, nobody is including first aid kits? :shock:
Mmmmm. A couple of years ago Tina and I were part of a 8 person group that walked the West Highland way. Should have been a walk in the park.
Unfortunately, Tina tripped on one of the particularly well maintained stone paths and fell heavily on same. She seemed to be in a lot of pain and we assumed a dislocation was involved. Later that day the A&E at Fort William established via xray that she had shattered the ball at the top of humerus into 3 pieces, and the ball was also separated from the humerus. :shock:
A complete trooper, she walked off the mountain with nothing more that a handful of Ibuprofen and her arm in a sling.
The point? Well even though we could count three doctors amongst our group, no one other than myself carried a first aid kit! Even if it is "just a walk in the park", there is a minimum you should carry.IMO
I always carry the army“s first aid that can handle most situations that can happen and most important I know how to use it.
I t does not mattet how good you r first aid kit is if you do not have the skills. Have been with some nasty accidents but have been lucky to have people that havd the right knowledge to handle the situation and no one has carried more then the army“s firs aid.
A first aid course is probably the best first aid kit there is...!
Paganwolf
18-01-2005, 19:47
I always carry the army“s first aid that can handle most situations that can happen and most important I know how to use it.
I t does not mattet how good you r first aid kit is if you do not have the skills. Have been with some nasty accidents but have been lucky to have people that havd the right knowledge to handle the situation and no one has carried more then the army“s firs aid.
A first aid course is probably the best first aid kit there is...!
Good point Viking, having a first aid kit is one thing, having it plus the knowledge of how to use it and how to act in an emergency is another, Natural pathways are doing a good 1st aid course, I recently renewed my ticket with them and can recommend it highly :biggthump all outdoor shops, boots,and your local chemists can supply you with a good fundimental 1st aid kit...
Maybe what kit you choose and what kit you carry is all about balance. About what you feel comfortable and safe with.
Maybe bushcraft is about balance, being in balance with your environment and in balance with your own skills...hopefully the kit follows on from that as a result.
I think we all agree on the fundamental kit list but we keep touching on the most important part of the kit, knowledge.
Great thread guys, sorry if I digress. A Mr. Miyagi moment. :roll:
like to add my 2cents if I my. first yard sales flea markets thrift stores, start there, [they have those things in u.k. don't they??. get yourself a good pocketknife and agood fixed blade knife. every thing else spend the minimium on to start out. heres why as your skills grow your kit will evolve, what you will want a year from now is'nt nessarily what your going to start with. improvise, not just to save money but because its a learned skill, and in my opion the most essential skill in bushcraft. you likely have some stuff around home you can make do with to start out. save your money, a year from now start looking for more permanent additions to your kit. what works well for someone else might not for you. exsperiment, try differnt things I've been doing this for 35yrs. and I still like tin can billies , and other homemade gear. scrounging around for gear is good for your imagination, the second most useful bushcraft skill. hope this helps and I hope you enjoy it as much as we all do.I think if I were going to recomend for someone starting out to spend wisely by using there money to go to ashdown or simialer event, or to contact one of us who is closest to them and say, if i spring for grub would you care to bushcraft for a night or too and share you knoledge?. that would be the wisest investment in my opinion.
Bob Hurley
19-01-2005, 02:25
The native american peoples managed OK without stainless steel, gore tex or the latest technical footwear.
I do quite a few outings with only the clothes and kit commonly carried by a c1760 Cherokee on a similar trip. The clothing is far better suited to the woods, and I don't feel there's anything missing from it even though it's a light kit (I will admit a modern firestarter would be nice). I take the food I need and don't count on hunting or wildcrafting for dinner, and I'd have to say I'm comfy and well-fed. I'm not an especially good woodsman. The simple clothing and kit they used works as well now as then.
Justin Time
19-01-2005, 09:05
HI Bob..
You've got to give us some photos and a kit list for that :biggthump
Paganwolf
19-01-2005, 09:34
Yes id like to see that too! i think i saw your Pic in the gallery with out looking is it you dressed up? scared me :shock: the only thing is if in Sweden or the UK a cherokee may freeze his dangley bits off :shock: eather that or get arrested :rolmao: :rolmao:
neo_wales2000
25-01-2005, 01:56
A good first aid kit is vital, but as said by others, first aid skills are to a degree more important. Look at http://www.uwtv.org/programs/med.asp and click on "Back country medicine" its well worth a look. I've been a nurse since 1988 but not all nurses are good emergency first aiders; do a course in emergency first aid and learn from it as I have. My kit is small but does the job:
Ibuprofen tablets 200mg
Rennie/Gavascon tablets
Piriton tablets for allergic reactions (take 2 and they help you sleep)
Small high quality and sharp scissors
Good quality tweezers
Assorted plasters
Roll of micropore tape
Cotton wool balls (can be soaked in fuel and used as fire starters)
No alcohol wipes as I use meths, paraffin or coleman fuel and can clean wounds with any of those
Suture/stitch pack (only used to fix a flysheet rip to date)
Couple of rolls of bandage (1" and 3")
Thats about it; whole thing fits a ziplock bag.
I keep a couple of plasters and in winter lip salve in a small ziplock bag in my pocket. You can improvise pads for wounds from toilet roll or clothing.
Bob Hurley
25-01-2005, 03:00
Yes id like to see that too! i think i saw your Pic in the gallery with out looking is it you dressed up? scared me :shock: the only thing is if in Sweden or the UK a cherokee may freeze his dangley bits off :shock: eather that or get arrested :rolmao: :rolmao:
Here's a picture of me standing in front of a "deluxe camp", much more stuff than I'd carry on my back. This is the Cherokee equivalent of the guy with the satellite dish, and would have been carried on a pack horse. It includes an oilskin tarp, extra clothes, and extra cookware and food. The knife is a replica of a large French trade knife, it's only useful for food prep and stabbing things, I usually carry a smaller plain trade knife.
http://www.colonial-enthusiast.com/pics/bh_tsalagi_standing.jpg
A larger view:
http://www.colonial-enthusiast.com/pics/bh_tsalagi_campsite.jpg
In the woods, I wear
Wool breechclout held up by a thin leather belt
Braintan deerskin leggings, garters of the same
Braintan mocassins or barefoot if terrain permits
Linen shirt (or two)
Wool fingerwoven sash
and carry:
Wool twined small shoulder bag with shooting supplies and bear oil, a little jerky & dried melon
Powder horn
Belt knife tucked in sash, crossdraw
Tomahawk tucked in sash at back
Water in a gourd on a carry cord, or in a tin canteen (this isn't traditional, but with water quality now ...)
Trade musket
Rolled up in a wool blanket and carried by means of a tumpline
Large tin cup or small kettle, spoon
Food in cloth and deerskin bags - parched corn, dried hominy, dried sweet corn, salt pork, jerky, dried melon or pumpkin
Extra shirt and/or wool vest
Silk scarf or two
Spare mocassins
Awl and small amount of deerskin for repairs
Needles and thread in a small section of river cane
Tobacco and pipe
Flint, steel, tinder conk, cedar bark for tinder
Wool leggings, and a capote or extra blanket in temperatures below freezing.
A lightweight, small (5'x7') oilcloth if hard rains are expected.
The wide part of the tumpline goes across the chest just below the points of the shoulders, not on the head. Head carry is for short trips, heavy loads. It's a comfortable carry but a bit strange at first.
The blankets, capote, and oilcloth are the heavy items, and it pays to do without as much of that stuff as you can. A blanket makes a good coat and a decent shelter from light rain, and I usually camp by rolling up in a blanket beside the fire. I pick my spot carefully, with the rhodadendron, small pines, and other underbrush we have here, there are a lot of spots that stay fairly dry unless there's a long downpour.
This is at an event, I normally don't wear the red ochre in the woods - but if I was going to be out for several days hunting, I might. You can see what great camoflage it is, had I been wearing other than a white shirt. (Well, it was white once...)
Very cool outfit Bob. Just a question that's a bit off topic but if you could have any one piece of modern gear what would it be?
Bob Hurley
25-01-2005, 03:32
Very cool outfit Bob. Just a question that's a bit off topic but if you could have any one piece of modern gear what would it be?
Hmm...I'd say a lightweight basha of some sort, probably one of the US ponchos. The light oilcloth won't stop more than a drizzle, and the heavy one is ... heavy. A lightly loaded bedroll/tumpline is a pleasure to carry, and a heavy one is miserable.
Excelent stuff Bob thanks for sharing that with us! :biggthump
Paganwolf
25-01-2005, 09:07
Love it Bob :biggthump , thanks for that, wicked picture!! :biggthump
RovingArcher
25-01-2005, 10:59
Thanks for sharing the great pic of yourself in traditional regalia. Good stuff.
bambodoggy
25-01-2005, 11:31
No alcohol wipes as I use meths, paraffin or coleman fuel and can clean wounds with any of those
You can improvise pads for wounds from toilet roll or clothing.
Excuse my ignorance but can you really clean wounds with Parafin or Coleman fuel? I can see Meths might be ok but the other two....? ? ?
Gotta watch out for clothing not being sanitary and toilet paper sticking to the wound too :wink: otherwise removing the dressing brings the scab off too and you're back to square one!
I have "Deep Cut Plasters" in my basecamp FAK (as used in hospitals) and they are very good.
Know what you mean about not all nurses knowing 1st aid.....an old girlfriend of mine was a nurse but when she cut her finger on a bit of glass once she didn't have a clue what to do!!!
Oh and how did this thread turn into a FAK thread? ? ? :?:
Top Pics and info Bob...looks kinda scarey though! :-P thanks for sharing.
arctic hobo
25-01-2005, 17:40
Top class Bob :biggthump Is it me or is your rifle huge? :?:
Bob Hurley
25-01-2005, 18:09
Top class Bob :biggthump Is it me or is your rifle huge? :?:
I'm 5'11", 165# if that helps. It's a musket, a copy of a c1750 French fusil de traite, or trade gun - it doesn't weigh that much, but the 42" barrel and full stock makes it look large I guess. It's a lot nicer to carry than a Brown Bess.
I didn't intend to hijack the thread, only to show that you can be very comfortable with very little kit and absolutely no gadgets. You can do the same with modern kit, if you make a few small sacrifices - I accept that I'm going to get wet now and then, but I can always build a fire and dry out. Now, getting that fire going with flint and steel after everything in the woods is soaked can be a challenge, but that's part of the fun. If you look through the historic journals, you'll find there were plenty of times that they simply couldn't get a fire started, so I don't feel so bad when I have trouble.
superb stuff bob. :biggthump
I couldn't take my girlfriend out to dinner in my bushcrafty clothes. I'd get cold, they'd rip etc etc.
i don't know if i want to know where you take your girlfriend for dinner :o):
the zero kit ideal is a nice one, but for so many it isn't practical, destruction of habitat and all that, or particularly safe. we don't want any bushcrafters ending up on the news oetzi style! :naughty:
cheers, and.
Nightfall
25-01-2005, 20:03
Great picture Bob. :super:
Bob , are you the last of the mohicans , or are there others ?
(Its the eyes that get me ) :yikes:
arctic hobo
25-01-2005, 20:21
superb stuff bob. :biggthump
i don't know if i want to know where you take your girlfriend for dinner :o):
the zero kit ideal is a nice one, but for so many it isn't practical, destruction of habitat and all that, or particularly safe. we don't want any bushcrafters ending up on the news oetzi style! :naughty:
cheers, and.
Oi! :rolmao:
Nice one, Rhapsody! Another excellent post on this site that bears a fair bit of thinking about. I agree with others on this thread that you need to start with more kit while you're learning. In any case, most outdoor kit I get is with a view to hunting, Scouting, and then bushcraft, in that order (so I guess I'm a hobby bushcrafter :shock: !). Anyway, on to the budget kit:
Knife: I'd suggest starting with an Opinel No. 7, cheap as chips, easy to sharpen, blade locks nicely, better than locking SAKs. Costs about 6 euro here. Learn to use and care for it, then move on to fixed blades.
Chopping: First I was going to say it's the one thing I'd spend good money on, but then remembered that I used a cheapo hatchet to practise my sharpening skills (especially removing nicks) before attempting same on my Gransfors! Get a cheap one, get to know how to care for it, then trade up if you want to and you'll really appreciate a proper axe!
Sleeping bag: OK, so if you're not going to be out in January or camping at 200m plus, then what's wrong with a three season from Millets in the Jan sales? Most of Southern Britain is a lot warmer than the West of Ireland, and a two season is fine here through the Summer.
Shelter: 3mx2m green tarps with grommits for about 5 euro from Lidl.
Fire: Firesteels aren't that expensive, but as I struggle with them, I'd also bring some matches!
Cooking: Well, I use a Trangia (family sized) so I can't comment. The old coffee tins seem to make sense....
Water: I'm frequent user of the old coke bottle, myself!
Utensils: Hey, how much quality do you need? Re-cycle the plastic ones from fast-food joints.
Keep an eye on the Lidl and Aldi deals (I'm assuming you have these!) Usually the same stuff comes around periodically. In the last year I have got: 3mx2m tarps with grommits, 5euro; folding saw, 4 euro, one year old, still doing the biz (I use it a lot for hedging, so it gets USED!); Merino wool jumpers, ten euro, toasty, and excellent as a mid layer; first aid kits, 10.99 euro, to German DIN-13164 standard, it has almost everything; aluminium walking poles, 10 euro, can't see any difference between these and the ones in outdoor shops for 4 times the price. Most of the deals on outdoor stuff were around April last year, so start checking the websites before then.
Minotaur
30-04-2005, 02:54
Your kit is your kit.
My kit choices have 23 years of bad decisions behind them.
The cubs and scouts taught me very early on that being cold for long periods is not good. I know now that you need twice as much under you as over you. I have a £20 mummy bag(Argos, I think), a survival bag, and a sleeping mat(Aldi or Lidi is going to do them for 2.99), it worked and still works. If I reallly wanted to spend money I would go looking for one of the army sleeping systems, surplus. A £200 sleeping bag does not make you warm, that is down to where you pitch your tent or shelter.
I was against goretex from the begining and was provided right when everyone in an eight man party walked off a hill in Ireland with exposire. I knew my £30 waterproof worked, and so did their £200 Goretex Jackets but everyone still got cold and wet to the point of indangering their health. Read some of the lightweight hiking stuff, they do not use the heavy weight stuff at all but use a layered system that has been around a long time. They have gone back to waterproofs but use wicking shirts.
Buy cheep, and get out there. Doing it, will teach you what works and good instructors will teach you to learn from their mistakes. We have all been cold or hungry at one point get us to explain what went wrong. Ask anyone who camps with their wife or partner? You never have the same temp or nights sleep. People are differnet, so find what works for you.
Regards,
Ps Just as a point I am still learning because to use a US Marine expresion(that is where I stole it from), when the corps wants you to be uncomftable they will arrange it. Nature has a habit of not doing what you want, just ask Micheal Fish.
PPS Can we not knock the best entertainment going on camp sites. I can sit for hours watching the right type of person put up a new tent. Not because I am that sad but because it takes them that long. Lots of shouting at family for no reason.
arctic hobo
30-04-2005, 08:24
Minotaur: I agree with you that people can spend too much on gear, and also that expensive gear will not make you safer necessarily, but I wouldn't take it too far. The difference between a 20 pound Argos sleeping bag and a 150 pound say, Nanok bag is huge - you would simply not survive in the former in the arctic or on an exposed slope. There is a degree of it's being down to where you pitch, but if you're miles from anywhere particularly favourable, what can you do?
People spend money to get more for their weight. Even were an Argos bag equal in insulation (ignoring all the nasty bits like glue spots and cheap materials) it would be almost by definition heavier than a more expensive bag. Plus sleeping in a survival bag is apt to make you very wet indeed from condensation - I have done this many times (although not from choice). That's why bivi bags are so expensive - they have to be breathable.
As regards Gore-tex, I really don't think one 8 man party in difficulty disproves it's benefits. Gore-tex is not designed to be more waterproof, instead it is slightly less, but the person wearing it is drier as all their sweat is breathed out through the fabric instead of staying on them, which could make them lethally cold. People in Gore-tex are actually at an advantage - anybody can catch hypothermia or suffer exposure, no matter what they're wearing. Especially in a wet country like Ireland on the side of a hill.
I don't mean to get at you, but I can't go by and not highlight what you have said, as people reading it and doing it could end up doing some very irresponsible things, that would quickly make them look like this >>> :eek:
Cheers,
Chris
Minotaur
30-04-2005, 11:51
No problem Chris.
What I was trying to get at, was get out there. I am sure we could have conversations about our kit and why different items are in there forever but most of the reasons will come down to personnel experince. I know a lot of my kit choices come down to budget. Kit prices for the arctic would not be budget but this is down to the more extreme you go, the more it costs or you make your own. I went army sleeping system about 3 years ago and have done it wrong, so it will be back to the drawing board. Everyone is different and the sleeping bag is just too warm for me, under normal conditions. Have managed to avoid extreme for a while. Spent £150 on the lot and my list of moans is just getting longer and longer.
"Plus sleeping in a survival bag is apt to make you very wet indeed from condensation - I have done this many times (although not from choice)."
Me too, I even once teamed it with a foil Survivial bag, very bad idea. :(
Ref: Goretex but what about water logging? I resisted and resisted and then it stopped working. Go me, Go me, Go me. Yes, there is a smug grin envolded in this. The lightweights have gone back to the layered system but use wicking shirts as their base layer. They wick the sweat away from the skin but because of their waterproof outer layer they do not end up carrying the storm with them. I am going to start using this system because it is not much of a change, plus I could only find Americans using it so wonder how it will stand up to English roll of the dice weather. What I was trying to say about my experince in Ireland was that if anything the expensive kit worked against them, because their jackets almost doubled in weight, if not more. It stands as my scareist experince todate, because a group of experinced hikers and getting of the hill top was the only thing that saved us. 8 people all with exposire and not thinking straight was a bad combination.
I worked three weeks straight in a never ending downpour one March in the Lake District. We were fieldwalking the 1500m line looking for settlement evidences. *Nothing* keeps you dry in that. All you can hope for is that constant movement builds up enough warmth in the damp and something to block out the wind gets you through the day.
Goretex dies a death in it. Solid waterproofs (hey, students live broke :( and those are cheap) work, but when there's a lot of physical effort (try climbing barbed wire fences stretched across a roaring beck carrying surveying equipment) you cook inside. Wool gets soaked but stays warm and breaths; cotton is miserable, it's a cold wet clammy thing chilling your skin. Linen or silk underneath is excellent, but expensive. Cheap thermals work. :)
We went back a month later to do some excavation and those who had done the fieldwalking were the only ones who were comfortable. Layers of natural or wicking fibres with a wind proof outer....wool socks and gaiters or overtrousers. Ventile as an outer is good, as is the wax jacket (if it's got a decent set of hood fastenings and cuffs) If your wet, you're wet, keep the layer next to your skin warm and wind free, keep moving and you'll survive.
I still lost a stone and a half in three weeks...and I could afford good kit.
I'm probably going to get screamed at wth comments about being irresponsible, but that's life. We needed to do the work, just as Minotaurs friends, even though well prepared, got into difficulties on what should have been a good days' walking. Underestimating the weather here is just foolish.
Finally, having lost so much weight both my Goretex and my Lowe Alpine triple point ceramic jackets actually worked much better. They fitted comfortably before but afterwards they were at least two sizes too big and worked much better. If you are using breathables, buy them roomy, you can always tie cuffs and pull drawcords in. In snow (yup, I've even opened up an excavation in a blizzard!) they are very good though, they don't seem to get saturated the same way as they do in incessant rain.
Now then, what did the squaddies wear when yomping over the Falklands?....the weather there's supposed to be like home....and more importantly, did the clothing work for or against them? Enquiring minds would like to know :) 'cos army stuff is a damn sight cheaper than 'fashionable' hill walking kit even if you do end up looking like a refugee from a Millenium survival cult :D
Cheers,
Toddy
During the Falklands conflict, people were buying their own kit because issue was not up to the job, boots were a favourite with people as the DMS boot was still on issue. This is an ankle high boot, which was worn with puttees, a sort of gaiter that sat at the top of the boot. As you can imagine, the people still using these suffered from immersion or trench foot. The high leg boots worn by the Argentinians were far superior and were taken from the battlefield to be used by the british troops. Incidentally, if you go up on the battlefield tours in the Falklands today, you will see lots of white plimsols all over the place. This is because the conscripts had their boots taken off of them at night to stop them deserting!!
Also, people supplied their own bergens, the issue Large Pack was anything but!! Ask anyone who has used one, it is impossible to fit all the kit you need into a Larry. Your sleeping bag was strapped to the outside for starters!!
Windproof smocks were used by the toms on the ground, this jacket is far superior to the ripstop jacket now on issue, even with it's button on hood. My smock is a treasured item. windproof trousers are also outstanding, this kit dries out fast enough, and really does what it says on the tin. Woollen socks, HD jumpers and berets were also used extensively. Although HD jumpers are still on issue, they are not really used that much now. I think this is a shame as it is an excellent jumper, and when used with a norwegian shirt, you will never get cold!
Spamel
..... Woollen socks, HD jumpers and berets were also used extensively......
Spamel
Ooops, forgot :o , a woolly bunnet is a *must*, we even slept in them to try to keep warm at night too.
Thanks for the info Spamel; so windproof smocks and trews.....good things, yeh? But not the newer ripstop ones.
Cheers,
Toddy
The new ripstop jackets tend to wear out at the collar and cuffs rather quickly. They are OK for in camp wear, but when I go on exercise or deployment, I wear the windproof. I even went on exercise in a tracked vehicle this winter, and it got that cold that the diesel in our jerry cans started to wax. I was warm enough with my windproof smock and a t-shirt!!
Spamel
Minotaur
02-05-2005, 22:24
From what I understand what the lightweights have done is what you said but with modern materials. They use modern wicking materials with a windproof/waterproof layer. What must happen is sweat gets stuck away from the body and runs down so you stay warm and dry. What that means is the expensive item does the Goretex job and the cheep item keeps you dry, but you still end up paying less for the lot, than a Goretex jacket costs.
Never been a big fan of army kit but was sold on the sleep system(should have gone Swedish). The one advantage it does have is there are a lot of reviews or fixes out there because so many people use it. I am being slowly pulled back towards webbing, it is medicial kit, everything is just so handy.
Never heard about the boots in the Falklands before. Makes sense that our kit has trouble in the desert but on the Falklands, weird, but could be strangely true. The only thing I heard about kit in the Falklands was about the FN Fal getting picked up to replace SLR's.
arctic hobo
02-05-2005, 22:41
From what I understand what the lightweights have done is what you said but with modern materials.
You're forgetting that in this modern world of making a lot of money, which granted is no new idea but now markets are huge and controlled by fewer people, who have more technology to cut corners off with, weight targets are mostly reached by skimping. The lightweights have got decent kit and made it very thin (so it wears out in record time), and made it short (so it doesn't keep you dry/warm), and it's only when it comes to the actual materials is there any decent progression. The worst of it is they hide away the skimps, so you only realise when it's too late. :(
[QUOTE=Minotaur.
Never heard about the boots in the Falklands before. Makes sense that our kit has trouble in the desert but on the Falklands, weird, but could be strangely true. The only thing I heard about kit in the Falklands was about the FN Fal getting picked up to replace SLR's.[/QUOTE]
The kit back then was totally different, the DMS boot was an ankle boot with no stiched in tongue and puttees aren't gaiters they are a cloth wrapping around the ankle as a support! Not very good in the swamp that I beleive the falklands is. I got issued my kit in '84 and the last DMS were getting issued at the time, They had run out of 8s so i got two pairs of high legs instead of one of each type, different sizes as I found out later but never mind!
I think the kit has really improved since then, not sure if storemen have though. :)
Minotaur
03-05-2005, 10:48
That is the thing that worries me, Arctic Hobo. From what I can gather, they use the system I have always used, layering, but they do it for weight. A lot of the gear they use is not made with lightweights in mind but the quality is still an issue. They use race gear, which is not designed to stand up to hard use, but some of the less extreme people use modern outdoor shirts which have the same properties. I cannot find a good English Lightweight site to read what they do, but what the Americans etc seem to have done is interesting. You have to wonder if they get the same sort of yoyo weather as us.
They actually have a very Bushcraft motive behind what they have done, the point of going lightweight is to cover more ground, in more comfort. To do this they make every single item contuinally earn it's keep, but also look at things in a different way. They aim to take the minium with them to improve the experience, and enjoy being out there rather than moaning about the weight of the ruc.
Might try it for a while to see what happens but keep my windproof fleece and army jumper in the ruc, in case it all goes wrong.
Hi Goose,
Always thought of the Falklands as Highland Scotland but colder. It is almost impossible to belive British army kit would have trouble in the wet and the cold. Maybe they should send the buyers to test it in the Brecons or Ullenpool for a few months, might get it right then. I do not think anything has changed because they where still having boot problems in Iraq.
brian6244
05-05-2005, 16:25
Okay I'll take a shot at this one:
Knife - Frosts Mora ($8)
Chopping - Batton for Frosts Mora (Free)
Sleeping Bag - None because you dress appropriatly and sleep by the fire. (Free)
Rucksack - None because with this kit you don't need one to carry everything (Free)
Shelter - Storm Shelter Instant Pocket Tent or Large Sheet of Painters Plastic ($5)
Cooking - Metal Camp Cup ($5)
Fire - Mini Bic Lighter
Water - Metal Camp Cup (again) (Free)
Eating utensils - Carve a spoon and a pair of chopstix
Total Cost $18
After reading this I can't help but think to myself, "hey, why the heck have I been spending so much on gear????" :D :eek:
The SLR was the same rifle as the FN FAL, only single shot. The FN FAL had an automatic setting, but with a 20 round magazine and elephant gun recoil, you'd have to be mad to use it!!
I have a pair of DMS boots still, they are my Best Parade Boots. How anyone walked around on the Falklands with these is beyond me. I'm glad parades don't last more than a couple of hours these days, as they are howling, I'd rather wear my ammo boots!!
The FN was a little shorter and ligter than the SLR too The british decided we were all marksmen so lengthened the barrel and removed the auto function when it was remade for british army issue. I think the aregntinian version had a folding stock too.
I remember the lads with DMS boots used to rave how easy they were to run in but I got on fine with CBHs,I dont think I would attempt to run in my ammo boots though, I used to have enough trouble walking on tarmac with them! And polished corridors at gib!
A bit off topic sorry! But i suppose British Army and budget kit go together. :eek:
If we're talking Gib in Camberley, I went back last October for the first time since '94, and got a sick feeling in my stomach. I still hate the place!!
Arctic Hobo is right about lightweight kit wearing out. The new 95 combats are crap, and I was in the clothing store yesterday and word on the street is that olive green shirts and lightweight trousers are coming back!! I hope so, I'm sick of folk with worn out crotches who go commando and let it all hang out :yuck smiley: