Bushcraft Boat? Ref: Rivers TV Show

[Minotaur]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.

So this got me thinking, if I was building a Canadian Canoe I would be tempted to make locking bulkheads, so you could moor up to go into towns/villages, without having to take everything with you.

If you can sea canoe, how can any river get too dangerous, short of the obvous waterfall?

Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be? I get that a canadian canoe is going to be high on the list, but would something more like the three men in a boat style, or more of a sailing dingy be better. Would a catamaran style canoe be better, because of white water risks, and general stability?

Bit of a duff program to be honest but so far the scenery is amazing, and makes you want to go buy one, and get out there using it.

[Chinkapin]

Consider an "expedition" type kayak. Kleber http://www.klepper.com/en/index.php or Folboat. http://www.folbot.com/kayaks/greenland_ii/ These are both Mercedes class kayaks.

I've had a good whitewater, fiberglass canoe and I've had a Foldboat "greenland" before they were called greenlands. Speed, handling, ease of carry, stability, all go to the kayak. Cost goes to the canoe. comfort is a very personal thing. some prefer to sit higher up in a more normal position, some prefer the lower, legs straight out in front of the kayak. Cargo capacity goes to the canoe but the capacity of the two kayaks mentioned is more than adequate (including a passenger).

Both of these are ocean going, but I would NEVER take one on fast flowing white water, that is not what they are built for.

I really miss my Folbot and I was an idiot for selling it.

Of course, when you make your choice, just remember to pursue your own bliss; not someone else's (like me, lol)

[Chinkapin]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.

[Goatboy]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.

Hiya Chinkapin,

"Canadian Canoe" in the UK generally refers to any type of open boat with higher ends, rounded bottom and 13' to 17' long. Doesn't really matter what it's made of ( Royalex, Ramex, wood or fibreglass ) just to the shape. I think it harks back to our romantic notion of fur trappers navigating the Canadian rivers of yore in their "indian canoes"

Though I'm sure some-one from the paddling forums will keep you right and maybe correct me as I just like to puddle about in canoes and have never been an expert - as my face shows when we hit white water :o

TTFN
Goatboy.

[Joonsy]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.

So this got me thinking, if I was building a Canadian Canoe I would be tempted to make locking bulkheads, so you could moor up to go into towns/villages, without having to take everything with you.

If you can sea canoe, how can any river get too dangerous, short of the obvous waterfall?

Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?

Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be? I get that a canadian canoe is going to be high on the list, but would something more like the three men in a boat style, or more of a sailing dingy be better. Would a catamaran style canoe be better, because of white water risks, and general stability?

Bit of a duff program to be honest but so far the scenery is amazing, and makes you want to go buy one, and get out there using it.

one trouble with locking bulkheads is that if for any reason you capsized and your canoe got pinned/wedged under obstacle it would be difficult to remove the contents if you needed to, also if contents were heavy it may be difficult to ''right'' canoe after capsize if you couldn't remove them, i've done a fair bit of canoeing but am no expert so someone may offer better advice on this.

In England and Wales only certain waters have ''a legal right of access'', The Severn and Wye for example to name two, even these have areas with no legal access in their upsteam parts, the legality dates back to times the rivers were used as ''working waterways'', rivers that were never classed as working waterways (which is most of them) have not been granted any legal access and remain in private hands, there is an ongoing campaign to get legal access in all our rivers see the British Canoe Union website for more info. In Scotland the situation is diferent and legal access to all it's waters has been granted.

The programme missed out huge chunks of the River Wye and Severn, hardly any of the uppper sections of the wye were shown and middle sections of the Severn, it was a poor representation of the river i personally thought, there is loads more to see than what was shown.

Regards suitable canoe/kayak, it's horses for courses, different boats suit different waters, the open canoe is good option for touring the severn or wye for example, for sea a sea kayak would be better.

[John Fenna]

I will canoe on rivers from grade 3 white water to the open sea (up to about a mile off shore - I aint suicidal) and have taken trips of up to a week and needed no more than I carried in the canoe.
Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.
The ideal Bushy boat has to be the Open Canoe!
But then it could be I am biased as I am a level 4 coach in opens!

[Shewie]

I wish somebody had bothered to teach GRJ how to paddle his canoe properly before they filmed the series. I know that guy in Scotland had a bit of a go but he's still carried on with the goon stroke for the rest of the episodes.

Still, he looks happy enough I suppose.

[BorderReiver]

I will canoe on rivers from grade 3 white water to the open sea (up to about a mile off shore - I aint suicidal) and have taken trips of up to a week and needed no more than I carried in the canoe.
Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.
The ideal Bushy boat has to be the Open Canoe!
But then it could be I am biased as I am a level 4 coach in opens!

My first ever float in an open canoe was down the Yat. No bother.:cool:

[John Fenna]

I wish somebody had bothered to teach GRJ how to paddle his canoe properly before they filmed the series. I know that guy in Scotland had a bit of a go but he's still carried on with the goon stroke for the rest of the episodes.

Still, he looks happy enough I suppose.

Aye - but tired and sore!

He has a farm house not that far from me - perhaps I should offer lessons!:cool:

[TwoSticks]

I was watching the new BBC thing Rivers, and in all the programs he seems to change boats a lot. Also he seem to go, too dangerous to use my canoes now in every program.
Well, everyone has their own opinion and their own comfort zone so maybe that's as far as he feels confident pushing it. It's not a reflection of the capabilities of the boat as open canoes can easily handle grade 3 (+?) water. In fact, it's usually the paddler that's the limiting factor - I've often seen an empty canoe negotiate a rapid far better than one with people in it!


Also they talked about almost all British/Welsh rivers being unnavigable for legal reasons, never heard of this before. I have heard of not getting out of the boat just anywhere, because the land is private, is that what they are going on about? People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?
Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

[TwoSticks]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

I'm really curious about this term. To my limited knowledge, it is just not used here the U.S. I have been to Canada five or six times and I have never heard anyone there use the term either. Just "canoe". Unless they wanted to specify a certain type e.g. "birch bark" canoe.

Always interested in Brit/Am. terminology, word choice, phrase differences, etc.
Yes - it's just a canoe. But in the UK we also refer to kayaks as canoes. So, often when someone talks about 'canoeing' they might mean either (canadian or open) canoes, or kayaks. So we put the word 'canadian' or 'open' in front of the word when we really just mean what you call 'canoes' rather than kayaks!!!

[John Fenna]

Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Very debatable!
Have a look at the river access site reachable from the Welsh Canoeing Assoc site......

[Bravo4]

I really miss my Folbot and I was an idiot for selling it.


:lmao:
Birds of a feather, or maybe that's fish of a scale....or...something...
I too really miss my Folbot and I too was an idiot for selling it. I moved to New Mexico so maybe not such an idiot, for that one:rolleyes: .

I grew up on the water and have been wanting to get back and do some coastal beach cruising. I came across this 1972 Drascombe Dabber and just could not resist. She has, or rather should have, a yawl rig with a loose footed standing lugsail main, jib set flying from a bowsprit, mizzen with a bumpkin (you'll see a spar for a gunter in the pics, which is a hand-me-down from a Drascombe Lugger which is not actually a lugger but uses a gunter, you see the first Lugger was a lugger but later Luggers are typically not luggers although they can be). Obscure sailing information....:togo:

The hull design of the Lugger and the Dabber was inspired in part by the lines of a Coble which in turn has links to Viking ship design. :thinkerg: That's what you should get Minotaur, a Viking longboat:D . Or a Coble, or a canoe, no wait, sea kayak, or a little skiff, multi-hulls are fun, amphibious jeep, poncho raft?

Grace Darling, anyone?
There are a few working Cobles, long since converted from sail.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48905046@N00/428442601/sizes/l/
Off topic but a great picture of a Coble; launched and recovered from the beach, looks like a day to stay in.

This Dabber needs quite a bit of work and the saying that a boat is a hole in the water which one pours money into, well that looks to be true and I think I should have chosen a smaller hole. Have yet to sail her and not sure if I will get to. Might have to pass this one along, and feel like an idiot for that.
http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/8819/0000012.jpg
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3343/0000005p.jpg

[wildman695]

Well, everyone has their own opinion and their own comfort zone so maybe that's as far as he feels confident pushing it. It's not a reflection of the capabilities of the boat as open canoes can easily handle grade 3 (+?) water. In fact, it's usually the paddler that's the limiting factor - I've often seen an empty canoe negotiate a rapid far better than one with people in it!


Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Is that really the case, they own the bank and riverbed but not the water and you are on the water. Fishing any river from a public bridge or footpath is legal without the landowners permission so why would paddling on the water be any different. Any answers please?

[Minotaur]

Minotaur: I have read several references to "Canadian" canoes on this website. I'm not sure exactly what is meant by that terminology. Does it refer to any typical canoe (higher on both ends, rounded bottom, typically, 13 to 17 ft. long,) or does it refer to a birch bark canoe or to a cedar strip canoe?

The program mentioned this, apparently it is us Brits, and the term we use for open top canoes. The Native Amercian Style, so the non-kayak style. Someone mentions the fact that we do call them both canoes, so that might be were it came from.


The programme missed out huge chunks of the River Wye and Severn, hardly any of the uppper sections of the wye were shown and middle sections of the Severn, it was a poor representation of the river i personally thought, there is loads more to see than what was shown.

Only reason I watched it, was to see the Wye, and they missed almost all of it out.


Grif was barking when he said that a Kayak was needed for the Wye - I have taken novices down the Yat in open canoes.

Would be a toss up, as to if I have canoed more on the Wye, or the Isis, but that is what I thought because I must have done the same white water in a Canadian Canoe.


The hull design of the Lugger and the Dabber was inspired in part by the lines of a Coble which in turn has links to Viking ship design. :thinkerg: That's what you should get Minotaur, a Viking longboat:D . Or a Coble, or a canoe, no wait, sea kayak, or a little skiff, multi-hulls are fun, amphibious jeep, poncho raft?

That was what inspired the question, there are crafts that ancient people used that could do both, like the smaller longboats.


Yes - the bit about the private land is the key here. The land owner not only owns the bank, but also the river bed. So when paddling a river in England and Wales we need the landowners permission to paddle 'over' their land too.

Never seen a sign about this, so how do they enforce it? Only way you can get off their river is to carry on. I mean they are not going to block it, because that might damage fishing in it.

[TwoSticks]

Very debatable!
Have a look at the river access site reachable from the Welsh Canoeing Assoc site......

Yes, and as a canoeist myself I know that just about every canoeist debates this......!!

One of the problems is that the bank and bed of every inland water is privately owned. We do have a right of access on those maintained as waterways, and those where Common Law or historical use gives us access,

People have navigated the Seven, so how can any of it be off limits?
The Severn between Pool Quay and Stourport is an example where we do have a right of access.

But that still leaves over 41,000 miles of river in England and Wales where we don't have a 'right' of access. Where we have no 'right' then access is contenscious and if we paddle there without permission, we 'may' be trespassing.

I think most of the debate is about the ambiguity - although we don't have a 'right' to access waterways doesn't mean we can't, and just because we 'may' be trespassing doesn't mean we are!

[Minotaur]

I think most of the debate is about the ambiguity - although we don't have a 'right' to access waterways doesn't mean we can't, and just because we 'may' be trespassing doesn't mean we are!

That is the thing unless it is a salmon fishing stretch with a lot of activty how would you even know the bit you were on is private?

[East Coaster]

Here we go with access problems again :(

As a matter of interest, has anybody ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for going down a private stretch of river in their canoe?

I'm not trying to promote law breaking here, but if I lived down south I'd paddle wherever took my fancy and just plead ignorance if approached by some scumbag sad enough to think they could actually 'own' running water.

The GRJ rivers programme didn't do too bad a job of the River Tay but you can tell he's obviously a novice in the canoe.

[helixpteron]

...... Anyway, the main question what would the idea one/two person craft actually be?......

To my mind, the ultimate Bushcraft Boat is the one you can take with you when head for the water, and when you leave the water, without the need for vehicles, trailers and trolleys or having to return to the put in.

I opted for a couple of Alpacka Rafts, like these......

https://www.alpackaraft.com/store/images/main/alpackaraft-66-3.jpg
Credit: Alpacka Raft.

Erin McKittrick bushwacking with her Packraft.
http://www.alpackaraft.com/gallery/images_main/23_alpackaraft-307.jpg
Credit: Bretwood Higman & Alpacka Raft.

Cycles welcome!
http://www.alpackaraft.com/gallery/images_main/17_alpackaraft-362.jpg
Credit: Eric Parsons, Epic Designs & Alpacka Raft.

Packs small (Bic pen for scale) weighs about 5lbs.
http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/user2490_pic370_1235860339.jpg
Credit: Expemag.com

There's a thread on Alpacka Rafts on the Forum.

[Minotaur]

Here we go with access problems again :(

I was always a bit on the fence about this sort of stuff. 90% of my access issues, were down to land owners not marking, or blocking paths. An attuitude I understand, because I have been around when people have walked straight across fields, when I am stood on the path watching them. I can understand someone wanting to protect a strech of river they are pumping money into for fishing etc.


As a matter of interest, has anybody ever heard of anyone being prosecuted for going down a private stretch of river in their canoe?

Bet a club that used a bit of water have been done at some point.


I'm not trying to promote law breaking here, but if I lived down south I'd paddle wherever took my fancy and just plead ignorance if approached by some scumbag sad enough to think they could actually 'own' running water.

I get that you can own something like water, I look for water rights when looking at land, the problem I have is that I cannot see this as enforceable. That said my understanding of water rights was you owned the bank, and sporting rights. Land owners have always gotten a bad rap, and nine times out of ten, they are in the right.


The GRJ rivers programme didn't do too bad a job of the River Tay but you can tell he's obviously a novice in the canoe.

The thing I did not get about it was he struck these two rivers together. The Wye could easily have supported a programme on its own, and so could the Seven.


I opted for a couple of Alpacka Rafts, like these......

These do look interesting I must admit, but they have the same issues for me as standard canoes.

[Chinkapin]

Here in the U.S. most states divide their rivers between those that can be navigated and those that can't. Navigable being the key word. It is generally referred to as traditionally navigable, or navigable for commerce.

On any river that does not fit the definition of navigable and is therefore non-navigable the land owner, owns the banks of the river and the bed of the river as well. So, just like in the U.K. anyone going down one of these rivers is trespassing.

On navigable rivers the land owner does not own the bed of the river and you are therefore not trespassing.

But what if you want to go ashore and camp? Here, most states have worked out a very reasonable compromise: The canoeing public can camp anywhere between the water's edge, and the high water mark. This is usually quite a sufficient distance and includes plenty of camping space and firewood.

Not a bad compromise, really. I own property that is split by a navigable stream. My family has had for years a private picnic site near the waters edge, with a stone picnic table and a stone barbecue grill. A few times people have discovered it and abused it but for the most part it is left unmolested.

[Minotaur]

But what if you want to go ashore and camp? Here, most states have worked out a very reasonable compromise: The canoeing public can camp anywhere between the water's edge, and the high water mark. This is usually quite a sufficient distance and includes plenty of camping space and firewood.

In some places, in the UK, that could be one hell of a distance. The Severn, and Wye spring to mind.

[Elines]

From Two Sticks:

"I think most of the debate is about the ambiguity - although we don't have a 'right' to access waterways doesn't mean we can't, and just because we 'may' be trespassing doesn't mean we are!"

And other people make similar comments about "trespassing".

I am not a lawyer but on land I thought the position was that 'trespass' in itself was not illegal - to be a crime the land owner (or police?) would have to show damage. By analogy the landowner (or police?) would have to show that the canoeist/kayaker caused 'damage' by their 'trespass'.

Surely that would be an incredibly difficult thing to do if the canoeist/kayaker was just paddling through. This may be a case where the theoretical legal position has never been tested - anyone on this site a solicitor/barrister?

[TwoSticks]

I am not a lawyer but on land I thought the position was that 'trespass' in itself was not illegal - to be a crime the land owner (or police?) would have to show damage. By analogy the landowner (or police?) would have to show that the canoeist/kayaker caused 'damage' by their 'trespass'.
I'm not in the legal profession either, but my understanding is that if you wander onto someones property you may be committing trespass. In this case it is a civil offense and the landowner may sue for damages or seek an injunction against you. The Police shouldn't be involved as it's a civil matter, but could be if there had been a conspiracy to commit trespass (ie you planned your paddle!).
If you then go on to obstruct or disrupt a lawful activity you may be committing the criminal offense of Aggravated Trespass. This is when you may be breaking the law and the police may become involved.


Surely that would be an incredibly difficult thing to do if the canoeist/kayaker was just paddling through. This may be a case where the theoretical legal position has never been tested - anyone on this site a solicitor/barrister?
I don't think it's actually been tested in the courts yet - which is why I made the original point about the ambiguity.

[Minotaur]

I am not a lawyer but on land I thought the position was that 'trespass' in itself was not illegal - to be a crime the land owner (or police?) would have to show damage. By analogy the landowner (or police?) would have to show that the canoeist/kayaker caused 'damage' by their 'trespass'.

I am not sure how it works in the UK, but I think there has to be signs, some attempt to restrict access or mark the boundary. Which would be a nightmare on a river, I would have thought.

[Chinkapin]

minotaur: I misspoke, instead of "high water mark" i should have said "average high water mark." Obviously, this is quite a different distance.

Trespass in this country has evolved quite a bit in the last 40 or so years. In the early days if you were on my land, you were trespassing, period.

then for many years a person could enter onto your property and was not considered to be trespassing until you informed him that he was trespassing. At which point he had to get off your property in a "reasonable" time.

It sort of evolved that it was difficult to prosecute someone for trespass unless the land was "posted" Which meant that you had registered it and "posted" a public notice in your local newspaper.

Today, many states have the so-called "purple post" law. This means that if you paint the tops of your fence posts purple that you mean for there to be no trespassing and they are now warned. Anyone entering anyway can be hauled before the court, and do not need to be told, etc. Works quite well.

[silvergirl]

There has been a bit of discussion on Song of the paddle (http://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=18780&page=3)about this.

I don't know why people tell him an open canoe isn't suitable for grd 1-2 water, when if he hasn't paddled a kayak before he is obviously going to find that harder. I wouldn't paddle more than grd 1 in a kayak, but would happily do grd 3 in a canoe.

Access wise as Rousseau said -"the first man who enclosed a bit of land said 'This is mine', and found people stupid enough to believe him, was the true founder of civilized society".

Fortunatley (if that is the right word) in Scotland the land grab (of the commons away from the peasantry) didn't really get goin till the 1600s, whereas in England it was pretty much complete by 1360. So you have had people down there shouting "Gert orf my land" for longer than we have.

As far as I am aware no one has been prosecuted for canoeing down a river (well there was one case brought by a hire company (I think)) but that was about launching from their land. Even if you were challenged the only requirement is to leave the area by the fastest route, which is presumably the way you are going :rolleyes: .

[Joonsy]

if canoeists want unrestricred acces to all rivers in England then it would be only fair to also allow the same rights to fishermen as well, unless you '''own''' a water you have to pay a considerable amount to fish and need a licence, if you decide to fish without a EA licence you run the risk of a heavy fine but if you decide to canoe where you please regardless of access it seems the worst that can happen is to be told to '''clear off''' by the landowner, canoeists contribute little to the upkeep of rivers but fishermen pay a considerable amount for the privilage to fish them (most fishermen don't ''own'' water but pay to fish), if free unlimited access was to be granted to canoeists it should also be extended to fishermen as well, in fact you can't even walk down a river unless there happens to be a footpath alongside it, maybe there should be a strip of land alongside all rivers allowing public access to all users (like a canal towpath). In reality the problem arises from too many people wanting different things from too little land, take canals for example, fishermem/boaters/walkers/cyclists all crowd onto the towpath each moaning at the other because they affect each others pleasure, because the thin strip of land called the towpath is legal access it becomes a crowded mass of different users that moan at each other, it's just what happens in an over-populated country, everyone wants priority for themselves and tolerance to each other becomes a dirty word.

[silvergirl]

if canoeists want unrestricred acces to all rivers in England then it would be only fair to also allow the same rights to fishermen as well, unless you '''own''' a water you have to pay a considerable amount to fish and need a licence, if you decide to fish without a EA licence you run the risk of a heavy fine but if you decide to canoe where you please regardless of access it seems the worst that can happen is to be told to '''clear off''' by the landowner, canoeists contribute little to the upkeep of rivers but fishermen pay a considerable amount for the privilage to fish them (most fishermen don't ''own'' water but pay to fish), if free unlimited access was to be granted to canoeists it should also be extended to fishermen as well, in fact you can't even walk down a river unless there happens to be a footpath alongside it, maybe there should be a strip of land alongside all rivers allowing public access to all users (like a canal towpath).
Long sentence :)

I really don't know about the situation down in England when it comes to fishing or anything else.
I do know however that there are many beats in Scotland that cost thousands of pounds a week to fish on. Here there is free responsible access to the water for all other water users.
The difference is that in canoeing you pass (usually quickly) over the surface of the water. You do not add or take anything from that water, it is merely a path down which you propel (my manual means not motors) your craft.
Fishing beats however, provide footpaths, cut back trees and overhanging vegitation, provided huts or benches. Hooks,line and sometimes bait are added to the water and fish are removed (even relesed fish have oxygen concentration and stress issues when they return).
Everyone pays for the upkeep of rivers through taxes, rod licences alone probably would not cover this (again I don't really know as there are no rod licences in Scotland).

And if you are in England you can buy a BCU licence for access to some waterways.


In reality the problem arises from too many people wanting different things from too little land, take canals for example, fishermem/boaters/walkers/cyclists all crowd onto the towpath each moaning at the other because they affect each others pleasure, because the thin strip of land called the towpath is legal access it becomes a crowded mass of different users that moan at each other, it's just what happens in an over-populated country, everyone wants priority for themselves and tolerance to each other becomes a dirty word.

And that is the real issue.
Everyone wants access, but why does it have to be 'exclusive' access. Are you seriously saying that kids can't go and play/ swim in a river because they don't have a licence? That people can't sit quietly and meditate at the side of a stretch of water because they do not own it? or that a right of navigation of our river which has existed for over 9,500 years (before bits of paper were invented) should be discared to preserve someone else peace and quiet. There used to be a law (which I'm not sure has been withdrawn) that required that rivers were maintained open for navigation to the width of a side ways floating pig :rolleyes:

Like I say the situation in Scotland is different. There is responsible access allowed on almost all waterways and land through un motorised means. It doesn't mean you can fish for free though, cause as we are seeing, there aren't that many fish in the sea (or rivers) any more.

[Joonsy]

And that is the real issue.
Everyone wants access, but why does it have to be 'exclusive' access. Are you seriously saying that kids can't go and play/ swim in a river because they don't have a licence? That people can't sit quietly and meditate at the side of a stretch of water because they do not own it? or that a right of navigation of our river which has existed for over 9,500 years (before bits of paper were invented) should be discared to preserve someone else peace and quiet.

Hi silvergirl, no i am not saying that at all, actually the reverse, i was trying to say that rivers (in england) should have free access to ALL users, i was trying to make the point that access issues arise because in a crowded land people get selfish and try to grab land/waterways for themselves and then keep it exclusive for their own use only, i probably didn't make my point very clear. I am both a canoeist and fisherman so have seen both sides, as a canoeist i was abused by fisherman when i canoed a small river (i always try to keep on the far bank when passing fisherman but on small rivers that's not possible and abuse was hurled at me even though i passed through very quickly to get out of their way) and also as a fisherman i have been abused by canoeists who ignorantly decided to play in the the very spot i was fishing (i paid good money to fish but had to pack up because they refused to go away saying they had access and could do whatever they liked, they said they were practicing and ''why couldn't i go elsewhere'' even though i was there first, i let them play directly in front of me for an hour before i politely asked how long they were going to be as they were ruining my fishing, they were ignorant and abusive and it was me that had to pack up even though being there first). I believe that rivers should be accessible to ALL users but was trying to make the point that where large numbers of people want the same land for different use there will always be conflict due to a minority of selfish people. People often seem to know what their rights are but not the responsibilty that goes with them. In Scotland there may be places wild and remote and you may have the river to yourself whatever your chosen pursuit is but in England it is a little more crowded sadly. Rivers should have free access to ALL people but a responsibilty to respect it and others goes with it too which is not always observed.

[silvergirl]

OK

I miss read you I thought you were saying 'Everyone should pay'.

However I guess the arguement is that fishermen pay the land owner for permission 'to fish', rather than just to use the river for its own sake.

We could get into discussions about catch and release and the right/responsibilty to take a modest 'natural' harvest, but lets not :p

[Minotaur]

minotaur: I misspoke, instead of "high water mark" i should have said "average high water mark." Obviously, this is quite a different distance.

Most of the rivers I have been on in the UK, this would not work here. Unless the river floods in most cases there would be no difference.


if canoeists want unrestricred acces to all rivers in England then it would be only fair to also allow the same rights to fishermen as well

Yes, I agree. Only problem is they cannot fish. Fishing falls under sporting rights, which might not even be owned by the same person. It is not the same thing. Fishing is not an access issue, it requires a license, and land owners permission because of sporting rights on land.


I don't know why people tell him an open canoe isn't suitable for grd 1-2 water, when if he hasn't paddled a kayak before he is obviously going to find that harder. I wouldn't paddle more than grd 1 in a kayak, but would happily do grd 3 in a canoe.

Think a kayak requires more skill, but a Canoe is better over distance.


Fortunatley (if that is the right word) in Scotland the land grab (of the commons away from the peasantry) didn't really get goin till the 1600s, whereas in England it was pretty much complete by 1360. So you have had people down there shouting "Gert orf my land" for longer than we have.

Not true, the last main screw of the peasants was the Agricultural Revolution, which was the 17th to the 19th century. I blame Robin Hood, all the Kings Deer business drives people in the wrong direction. The major difference, between England, and Scotland was they removed the land users in Scotland. In England they were still there, but most had been screwed, and would lose their land over time.

[John Fenna]

Think a kayak requires more skill, but a Canoe is better over distance.


I have to disagree here!
Having coached both Kayak and Opens the only thing I find easier in a Kayak is falling over!
Unless you want to play in realy big white water then canoes are by far the batter vessel (IMHO) as they are less likely to turn over unexpectedly on a novice, are less likely to entrap a novice, are easier to paddle in a straight line for a novice, are easier to pack a weeks unsuported expeds kit into, convert into a shelter easier and are a darn sight dryer!
There is a lot of truth in the old saw " Kayaks are for getting wet in, Canoes are for getting places in!"
For a novice this translates as " you are less likely to fall in the water before the end of the day if you use a canoe" and to the experienced paddler as " if you want to play in high end white water, covering comparatively short sections of a river, without having to empty your boat too often, look good in a skirt, helmet and nose-clip then a kayak is your boat - if you want to go on long, unsuported expeds then a canoe is the boat of choice"!

Both disciplines take training and skill to get good at.
It is interesting that GRJ (of very little skill) uses an Open for the trip and that using a kayak he fell in the 'oggin within a very short time!:D

[Minotaur]

I have to disagree here!
Having coached both Kayak and Opens the only thing I find easier in a Kayak is falling over!
Unless you want to play in realy big white water then canoes are by far the batter vessel (IMHO) as they are less likely to turn over unexpectedly on a novice, are less likely to entrap a novice, are easier to paddle in a straight line for a novice, are easier to pack a weeks unsuported expeds kit into, convert into a shelter easier and are a darn sight dryer!
There is a lot of truth in the old saw " Kayaks are for getting wet in, Canoes are for getting places in!"
For a novice this translates as " you are less likely to fall in the water before the end of the day if you use a canoe" and to the experienced paddler as " if you want to play in high end white water, covering comparatively short sections of a river, without having to empty your boat too often, look good in a skirt, helmet and nose-clip then a kayak is your boat - if you want to go on long, unsuported expeds then a canoe is the boat of choice"!

Both disciplines take training and skill to get good at.
It is interesting that GRJ (of very little skill) uses an Open for the trip and that using a kayak he fell in the 'oggin within a very short time!:D

Not sure what you are disagreeing with but completely agree with everything you said. If I was going to add something it would be that Kayaks bring stuff to the table at higher skill levels, but you have to want to do those things. Most Kayaks stuff that interests me these days involves some of those sea trips around some of the Scottish islands

Wonder still if you could have a Canoe, with a larger covered area, for locking/storing away kit?

[John Fenna]

I am saying that both require skill, neither nedds more skill than the other...just different skills as basically - they are intended for different things!

Traditionally designed Canoes are the better boat for long journies as this is what they were designed for in the first place.

I do not like the idea of a fixed lockable decked in stowage as it would play havoc with trimming the vessel and would likely cause drainage problems in the event of a capsize and rescue.

Lockable boxes that can be chained to immovable objects ashore but which are free to be moved around the canoe to retrim and allow free drainage would be my choice.

I often take my canoe on the sea and Wales has been circumnavigated (sea and rivers) before now (Mr Goodwin and Mr Eglestaff) so even for serious sea work the Canoe is a viable option - if you know what you are doing!

Sea Kayaks are designed for sea work (!) and a guy I worked with (Pete) took one acrosss the Atlantic - not something I would try in an open canoe:D

[Minotaur]

I am saying that both require skill, neither nedds more skill than the other...just different skills as basically - they are intended for different things!

Traditionally designed Canoes are the better boat for long journies as this is what they were designed for in the first place.

I think the Canoes win out as the best Bushcraft boats, but they lose out for me to modern world requirements.


I do not like the idea of a fixed lockable decked in stowage as it would play havoc with trimming the vessel and would likely cause drainage problems in the event of a capsize and rescue.

Lockable boxes that can be chained to immovable objects ashore but which are free to be moved around the canoe to retrim and allow free drainage would be my choice.

I wonder if there would be ways to solve those problems?


I often take my canoe on the sea and Wales has been circumnavigated (sea and rivers) before now (Mr Goodwin and Mr Eglestaff) so even for serious sea work the Canoe is a viable option - if you know what you are doing!

Sea Kayaks are designed for sea work (!) and a guy I worked with (Pete) took one acrosss the Atlantic - not something I would try in an open canoe:D

I wonder why, especially with the sailing canoe people, a Catamaran, or trimaran style canoe has not appeared. That would solve all the sea issues, you would have thought.

In fact I wonder if you took a Canoe style hull but only pointed at the front, and made it a pontoon style catamaran. I wonder if you would get the best of all worlds? Also I wonder how it would handle white water? They do use big inflatable version in the states, but I am not thinking of something that big.

[Bravo4]

I wonder why, especially with the sailing canoe people, a Catamaran, or trimaran style canoe has not appeared. That would solve all the sea issues, you would have thought.


Once upon a time I owned one of these:
http://www.windrider.com/16.shtml

Great sailing boat, not so great to paddle. Her 12 foot beam gives plenty of stability but would be a nightmare to manuever on any sort of white water. I think it would be the same with a canoe-cat; unless possibly you used oars instead of paddles. Might seem similar but two canoes rigged together is a much different beast from a "cataraft".
http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.asp?pfid=1116&deptid=1132

There are quite a few aftermarket sail rigs and outriggers available for canoes and kayaks:
http://www.solwaydory.fsnet.co.uk/sailing_canoes/sailing_canoes.html
http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html

As a sailing vessel, the 2 canoe catamaran concept is sound.
There was a sailor by the name of Francis Brenton who took 2 dugout canoe hulls, decked them over, rigged them up as a sailing cat, and sailed from South America to the States and eventually on to the Azores I believe it was. His book, which is near impossible to find, is called, "The Voyage of the Sierra Sagrada; across the Atlantic in a canoe". Incredible story.

Minotaur, I think I understand what you mean by "modern world requirements". How to secure your equipment when you come ashore and need to leave the boat? Where to sleep when the shore is private property? You can't just pull up on any old beach and pitch your tent.

This guy has had some interesting adventures; (Almost) to Cuba by Outrigger Sailing Canoe:
http://web.media.mit.edu/~tim/pix/cuba.html

As for big trips in a simple, open canoe, have you ever heard of Don Starkell and his sons voyage from Canada to South America, "Paddle to the Amazon"?
http://www.amazon.com/Paddle-Amazon-Ultimate-000-Mile-Adventure/dp/0771082568

How about Verlen Kruger? That guy got around.
Kruger canoes are something in between a canoe and a sea-kayak, have catamaran options, and are often sailed with one of the BSD rigs or similar.
http://www.krugercanoes.com/
They don't come cheap. If money were no object,,,,but I can't think of when money is no object for the small boat skipper who wishes to undertake an extended voyage.

So, I think the best boat for your purpose, is the smallest, simplest one you can get by with. Or the one you already have. Or the one someone will let you borrow. Or maybe the Kon-Tiki, but definately not the Titanic. Think hard about where exactly you plan to use the boat; the best of both worlds so often contains the worst of both worlds.

[helixpteron]

Excellent post Bravo4! http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/helixpteron/happy0034.gif

[Minotaur]

Minotaur, I think I understand what you mean by "modern world requirements". How to secure your equipment when you come ashore and need to leave the boat? Where to sleep when the shore is private property? You can't just pull up on any old beach and pitch your tent.

First off brillant post.

Yes, my thoughts are running along those lines. Anyone who saw the last episode will have seen him leave his canoe with kit in a town. Also saw him doing portage, funny.

One of the things that has happened in the world, is once we come up with an idea we head in that direction and only that direction.

I was thinking more about a Pontoon boat or hydroairy ship. Think the raft everyone makes, which is basically a style of catamaran. With a little more thought, I wonder how a slightly wider canoe/skift style boat, with pontoons would work. Provided you want to step away from the traditional hand build, it would be interesting to see what could be done alone these lines.


So, I think the best boat for your purpose, is the smallest, simplest one you can get by with. Or the one you already have. Or the one someone will let you borrow. Or maybe the Kon-Tiki, but definately not the Titanic. Think hard about where exactly you plan to use the boat; the best of both worlds so often contains the worst of both worlds.

As I answered John's post, I think the best boat is one of the canoes. They win in everything but me wanting certain thing from them.

I do not want the best of all worlds, just a boat to travel the rivers, and lakes in the UK. Not sure if I want to be able to sail, but it is an interesting option, that needs adding early. I even wonder if an electric boat might not be the way to go, and cycle instead of paddle. Used to spend a lot of time paddling a sailing dinghy when I was younger. It was a racing style that was complete unforgiving to the begineer, even people who could sail struggled in it. I also wonder how useful being able to sleep in the boat would be.

[al21]

Have you considered a small sailing dinghy? Something like a GP14 for instance, GP for General Purpose 14 foot. Designed to be rowed, sailed and propelled by outboard motor. Will sleep two onboard, size dependant, and are capable boats which can be sailed solo or carry four, though I've seen more. Or a Wayfarer or Wanderer which are regarded as quality cruising dinghies, that said you could probably go to any sailing club in the land and pick up an old unloved Mirror for next to nowt. A surprisingly capable boat the Mirror and is car topable like a canoe.

I suggest you take a look at www.dca.uk.com for a few more details about dinghy cruising and camping.

I say this as someone who has paddled canoes for many years and would have readily agreed that a canoe is the perfect bushcraft boat, but it isn't really suited to open water and the sea. It can be improved with the addition of an outrigger in the manner of Proa's etc to make a very seaworthy vessel, but the modification might put many off. I'm now thinking that a dinghy is the way forward. They address many of the issues you raise with many having lockable waterproof chambers and sleeping onboard under a boom tent.

Food for thought, I hope.

[Minotaur]

Have you considered a small sailing dinghy? Something like a GP14 for instance, GP for General Purpose 14 foot. Designed to be rowed, sailed and propelled by outboard motor. Will sleep two onboard, size dependant, and are capable boats which can be sailed solo or carry four, though I've seen more. Or a Wayfarer or Wanderer which are regarded as quality cruising dinghies, that said you could probably go to any sailing club in the land and pick up an old unloved Mirror for next to nowt. A surprisingly capable boat the Mirror and is car topable like a canoe.

I suggest you take a look at www.dca.uk.com for a few more details about dinghy cruising and camping.

I say this as someone who has paddled canoes for many years and would have readily agreed that a canoe is the perfect bushcraft boat, but it isn't really suited to open water and the sea. It can be improved with the addition of an outrigger in the manner of Proa's etc to make a very seaworthy vessel, but the modification might put many off. I'm now thinking that a dinghy is the way forward. They address many of the issues you raise with many having lockable waterproof chambers and sleeping onboard under a boom tent.

Food for thought, I hope.

Very interesting. I think you are raising more interesting options.

I think a mirror is a bit small, but the Wanderer looks interesting, but no build your own.

Something like this on the other hand is very interesting. julie-skiff (http://intheboatshed.net/2009/04/13/the-designer-grins-the-first-julie-skiff-is-built-and-launched-in-florida/)

[al21]

Very interesting. I think you are raising more interesting options.

Glad you think so. I think it's a shame more folks don't use boats in and around the UK, though I suspect it's the thought of learning to sail and the costs that can involve which puts many off.


I think a mirror is a bit small, but the Wanderer looks interesting, but no build your own.

Something like this on the other hand is very interesting. julie-skiff (http://intheboatshed.net/2009/04/13/the-designer-grins-the-first-julie-skiff-is-built-and-launched-in-florida/)

I know what you mean about the Mirror, but they are cheap way to get you on the water.

The Julie Skiff looks very interesting. Lots of boats like that being home-built in the states currently. This might be of interest too: http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/RaidBoats.pdf shows a number of different boats with a few details.

Selway Fisher might be worth looking at too: http://www.selway-fisher.com/ lots of designs for the home builder.

[Minotaur]

Glad you think so. I think it's a shame more folks don't use boats in and around the UK, though I suspect it's the thought of learning to sail and the costs that can involve which puts many off.

I am not sure that is true? I think we are a big boating nation, but very defined, so you get the canoes, sea sailors, motor boaters, and tourists.

I can sail, but as I said I really need to take some real lessons in a real begineer boat to understand it, and move forward with it. I do think that if you want to learn to sea sail, paying out the money is a good idea because knowing what you are doing out there is such a good idea. I know a millonaire who has not gone all the way to the full ticket because the price put him off.


I know what you mean about the Mirror, but they are cheap way to get you on the water.

The Julie Skiff looks very interesting. Lots of boats like that being home-built in the states currently. This might be of interest too: http://www.smallboatforum.com/PDFfiles/RaidBoats.pdf shows a number of different boats with a few details.

Selway Fisher might be worth looking at too: http://www.selway-fisher.com/ lots of designs for the home builder.

I think why I like the idea of building my own is that no one seems to be making what I want.

[al21]

I think why I like the idea of building my own is that no one seems to be making what I want.

When you decide on what you want to build, please make a blogg of the process so we can follow.

Best of luck

Al

[Minotaur]

When you decide on what you want to build, please make a blogg of the process so we can follow.

Best of luck

Al

Will do.

Some more links that look interesting for people :-

Three articles about the same sailing canoes, very interesting, seems the idea got left behind because of the pursuit of speed.

modern-decked-sailing-canoes (http://www.westsystem.com/ss/modern-decked-sailing-canoes/)

modern-decked-sailing-canoes (http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/08/designs/bufflehead/index.htm)

modern-decked-sailing-canoes (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=444&)

WP Stephens canoe book (http://www.dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/index.html)

Dragonfly Canoe (http://dragonflycanoe.com/) looks an interesting website to explore.

One thing to mention a canoe in sailing terms can be really big. They get yacht sized.

[Grooveski]

Don't know if I've been at it long enough to offer advice on sailing canoes but first impressions are:

Wobbly when empty - not uncommon with any canoe really. I've already gathered a selection of lead flashing scraps that I ballast up with for day trips as the first couple of days out were a bit nerve wracking.

Narrow for sailing - it's not going to tip but it sure does feel like it. When you catch a gust it keels over alarmingly fast. I've only got a throwover lee board which does nothing for lateral damping. Fixed lee boards are probably better but I don't know by how much.
You also get a lot of rocking about over waves with the mast raising the COG, even a light aluminium mast. Again, it's much worse when empty.

Cold - you have to wrap up well. You're not paddling, just sitting in the base of the canoe. Amazing how chilly it gets when you're not exerting any energy.

Hatches are awkward - but you get used to them. No different to a sea kayak, you trim before you set off. At least you're in an open cockpit so you can trim on the fly using your own bodyweight. The model I've got has pedals for the rudder which limit your ability to do this quite a lot but so far it hasn't been an issue.
Although the bulkheads are watertight the combing will trap water and make recovery difficult. I haven't tried yet as I've just been trying to keep it sunny side up but as John mentioned it won't be as easy as with an open canoe. The mast and sail are likely to cause even more problems than the combing.

Fragile - 5mm marine ply just doesn't inspire the same confidence as royalex or the likes. You just have to accept that wading out to knee deep is the way to go. I don't intend to take it anywhere near rivers.

Sounds like a whole bunch of cons but catch the right force 3 and it's a joy to scoot along in.
An aquired taste I'd say and considering that an open canoe can be set up for sailing(and is far more versatile)......

Hop on a plane to Glasgow, I'll pick you up and drop you at Loch Lomond for a weekend with the boat, give you a chance to try it out.
The model I have is a 13'8" Macgregor, specs can be seen here (http://www.jordanboats.co.uk/JB/iain_oughtred.htm).

[Minotaur]

Don't know if I've been at it long enough to offer advice on sailing canoes but first impressions are:

Wobbly when empty - not uncommon with any canoe really. I've already gathered a selection of lead flashing scraps that I ballast up with for day trips as the first couple of days out were a bit nerve wracking.

That was one of my thoughts. I bet with a little thought on a Canadian Canoe, with a stabilzer, you could make something that was a joy to sail. I would have thought a self build would make for a better boat. Get the feeling that the production people are making copies of what they were making years ago. Apart from anything else you could build in the board, and mast points etc.

I think the big thing that puts me off is that sailing is too much effort. Paddling does not require you to pay massive amounts of attention to it, so something like that makes more sense to me.

That is why I was thinking of electric/cycling power plus paddlability. I like the idea of something like a cross between a skiff and pontoon, and a little more high tech. Storage, and the ability to get out of, or keep going in the rain seem very useful additions as well.


Hop on a plane to Glasgow, I'll pick you up and drop you at Loch Lomond for a weekend with the boat, give you a chance to try it out.
The model I have is a 13'8" Macgregor, specs can be seen here (http://www.jordanboats.co.uk/JB/iain_oughtred.htm).

Thanks for the offer will have to give it some serous thought.

[al21]

Don't know if I've been at it long enough to offer advice on sailing canoes but first impressions are:

Wobbly when empty - not uncommon with any canoe really. I've already gathered a selection of lead flashing scraps that I ballast up with for day trips as the first couple of days out were a bit nerve wracking.


Eeek! Lead ballast in a sailing kayak. I would use water filled containers myself, more bulky I know, but at least neutrally bouyant in the event of a capsize. Also allows you maintain the versatility of a canoe/kayak for portages etc.

Al

[John Fenna]

I often sail my open canoe.
My mast is my canoe pole, my leeboard is my paddle,
The only alteration to the canoe was fitting (glue) a mast foot and a mast thwart instead of a plain front thwart.
The sail I made myself with a colapsible tent pole for a boom - and the sail doubles as part of my shelter at night.
As to ply being too fragile for rivers - I have run grade 3 rapids in my 4mm ply open canoe and the ply has never damaged...the fibreglass tape on the seams has busted before now - but not the ply! I would rate a well made ply canoe as possibly more robust than a glassfibre one....
Open Canoes are the most versatile of all boats for Bushcraft!

[Minotaur]

I often sail my open canoe.
My mast is my canoe pole, my leeboard is my paddle,
The only alteration to the canoe was fitting (glue) a mast foot and a mast thwart instead of a plain front thwart.
The sail I made myself with a colapsible tent pole for a boom - and the sail doubles as part of my shelter at night.

I think I am missing something in this you know?

Simple put, that makes a lot of sense. Why not build into a self build Canadian canoe, a hole for the mast, and a centre board slot. Would seem to make perfect sense. Maybe it is a gap in my sailing knowledge.

Interesing sail boat! (http://wharram.com/hitia14.html) This boat is roof rackable, and sea worthy. Not sure I would fancy it in the Irish but good luck to anyone who wants to try it.

While I was looking for this link, saw a couple of bizarre ideas. Take a canadian canoe, and turn it into a trimaran. Need the canoe, just unslot it, and paddle away.


As to ply being too fragile for rivers - I have run grade 3 rapids in my 4mm ply open canoe and the ply has never damaged...the fibreglass tape on the seams has busted before now - but not the ply! I would rate a well made ply canoe as possibly more robust than a glassfibre one....

Not seen any problem about ply canoes. Would have thought they are stronger than a normal wood one.

Have seen strips, sometimes wood, sometimes metal, on the bottom that must be to take the drag damage etc. Replace them not the bottom of the canoe.


Open Canoes are the most versatile of all boats for Bushcraft!

I agree, but I do think maybe a little more thought into design might not be a bad idea.

[John Fenna]

No need to comprompise the hull with a centre board - a leeboard is all you need and it can clip on/off!