View Full Version : Thermarest or foam...
Squidders
12-12-2004, 23:30
I have a quick question... or two, maybe even three.
I currently have a few foam mats for sleeping out and they do an admirable job of keeping the chill from the ground out and for making any pointy bits on the floor comfy.
They're not very forgiving on my back though.
I have been thinking about getting a thermarest for some time but i'm more than a little dubious about their ability to maintain shape and keep the heavier bits of me off the ground.
I have squeezed one or two in shops and they seem to give really easily, are they ok when you're laying on them?
I was looking at one of the larger ones in the range for comfort.
Danceswithhelicopters
12-12-2004, 23:39
Go Thermarest-I doubted them at first but even the ultralight 3/4 ones have transformed my sleeping. They're warmer, softer and smaller pack size means they can go in a pack and not get wet on the outside. I imagine the base camp style ones are luxury.
squidders.. if you just squidge them with your thumb then you are bound to be able to touch if you lie on them spreading your whole weight over the whole surface are then it will support you nicly as it is air tight..
i would 100% recoment them!!! :wave:
rapidboy
13-12-2004, 00:11
I don't like the 3/4 ones as a full length version weigh's very little more and yet protects your bag so much better.
I have a standard one and a delux.
The standard is half the size of the delux when rolled up but the delux is very very comfortable.
Check the whole range as i think there are quite a few now.
The cheaper versions are heavier.
Highly recommended.
rb
thermarests have revolutionized outdoor sleeping, and few things are more important than getting good night sleep as it effects everything (including your safety) that you do the next day.
get one, you wont regret it.
I recommend the US military version as it is more hardwearing and so better suited to bushcraft.
they are not imported into the UK though so you will have to buy from the US :(
tenbears10
13-12-2004, 09:09
Another vote from me as well. You think they can't be that good or worth the cash but spend one night on one and you will change your mind.
If you are comming to Ashdown Joe let me know and I can bring a spare T'rest for you to try out if you like.
Bill
Never ever Therm-a-rest for me.
I had a cut in the brim (correct word?), so both sides of the mat were damaged. On the tour it was not possible to repair it - I really tried (Tape, Nylon patches,PU)!
I had to send it to Therm-a-rest, even the outdoor-shop didnīt know what to do.
And if itīs very cold, you have a problem anyway.
Of course there are many advantages. But experience counts. An important part of the equipment should be bombproof or easy to repair.
Sometimes foam means pain, less recovering... but you get used to it.
Itīs nice warm, touch it with your cold hand and you feel warmth immediately.
Lightweight but bulky. And I prefer the 14mm version. 10 mm is warm enough, even in winter (up to -20 !?), but 14mm means comfort, better sleep.
But it took me ages before I found out my backpack-system, in which this bulky foam mat fits inside the pack. Thatīs a problem if you want a compact shape!
Therm-a-rest all the way for me, I used to get really cold from losing heat to the ground, foam doesn't insulate that well. The therm-a-rests act by reflecting heat back up so you don't get cold. At the NEC this year they had a display with the mats on a bed of pebbles, when lying on them you couldn't feel a thing as they disperse your weight over the whole surface area.
i also like therma-rests more than the foams, they are more comfortable and smaller, but they are easier damaged, there for you have to carry it in the bag instead of strapping it on the outside.
RAPPLEBY2000
13-12-2004, 10:46
foam for cold weather or bivi's thermarest the rest of the year,
spend the money you won't regret it!
greg2935
13-12-2004, 11:08
I've got a thermarest, never regretted the very high cost!
Greg
Definitely thermarest or the Highlander version - about a 1/3 the price...
Paganwolf
13-12-2004, 11:48
Thermarest most defiantly, Its most important to get a good nights sleep while your out, its a recipe for disaster if your tired and are using sharps so good bedding down kit is top of the kit list IMO, I've got a self inflating pillow also this I wouldn't recommend unless you have about 7 on top of each other!
Squidders
13-12-2004, 13:24
Ok then... since all bar one or two think they're the proverbial danglies...
I have been looking at the verious versions from the base camp ones to the ultralight ones. The basecamp ones are too big to fit in my pack (and being a thermarest I have to keep it safe and protected right?) but are fairly cheap and deeply padded.
The smaller ones aren't so large but not that much in it for some reason with the packed size and they are thinner and cost loads more... why can't they make 2 versions of the thing, one heavy, one light... there you go.
55cm x 11cm packed seems a little large for a mat i have to keep inside my bag... any tricks or tips on which one?
i carry mine on the outside of my bag in various ways.. with out anyprobs so far..!
bushblade
13-12-2004, 14:24
Ok then... since all bar one or two think they're the proverbial danglies...
I have been looking at the verious versions from the base camp ones to the ultralight ones. The basecamp ones are too big to fit in my pack (and being a thermarest I have to keep it safe and protected right?) but are fairly cheap and deeply padded.
The smaller ones aren't so large but not that much in it for some reason with the packed size and they are thinner and cost loads more... why can't they make 2 versions of the thing, one heavy, one light... there you go.
55cm x 11cm packed seems a little large for a mat i have to keep inside my bag... any tricks or tips on which one?
The Pro lite 3R or 3S (Regular or Short) would be well worth you looking at. Expect to pay Ģ55-Ģ60 for the short and about a fiver more for the full length version. Many people would say go for the full length version but this is an entirely individual choice. I personaly would choose the short version out of the 2 as I carry a sit mat, which gets put under my feet for sleeping, and a dry bag full of clothing becomes my pillow. I'm 5'10" and that system has my whole body covered. The short weighs in at arround 360g IIRC and works better in a hammock than a full length.
If using a bivi bag put your thermarest inside your bivi bag to sleep this keeps everything together better and protects your thermarest. Don't worry about damage to the bottom of your bivi bag as this area does not need to be breathable so can be repaired easily with duck tape, many top end bivi bags have non breathable coated nylon as the base allready.
bushblade
13-12-2004, 14:30
Therm-a-rest all the way for me, I used to get really cold from losing heat to the ground, foam doesn't insulate that well. The therm-a-rests act by reflecting heat back up so you don't get cold. At the NEC this year they had a display with the mats on a bed of pebbles, when lying on them you couldn't feel a thing as they disperse your weight over the whole surface area.
The closed cell foam mats will in most cases insulate better than a Thermarest, but in terms of sleeping on the thing in UK conditions this is not noticeable. There is no reflective layer in thermarests they insulate in the same way as closed cell foam.
Definitely put it in a bivi not on it. Unless you're into nocturnal tobogganing!:o):
tenbears10
13-12-2004, 14:34
I have an ultra-lite which I think are now the Pro lite ones Bush Blade mentions. They fold in half to pack making them small enough for a big side pocket on your rucksack. The comfort is fine so I don't see that a thick one is needed. If it is winter and warmth in an issue take a karrimat as well but you will only need it a few times in the year so this way you don't have to lug a big Termarest all year when you don't need it.
Bill
NickBristol
13-12-2004, 15:39
If you're going to carry a Thermarest on the outside of your pack, don't rely on the carrycase supplied with it to keep it dry. I've found it best to tightly wrap the Thermarest in two of those thick plastic pack liners - the ones that usually have either the Countryside Code or Internation Distress signals on them - and then put all of that in the case supplied with the Thermarest. It's not a perfect watertight solution but has kept mine dry thru some pretty harsh treatment over the years, including a few beachlandings and plenty of river crossings.
I take a thermarest ultralight 3/4 in summer and I can use it in a hammock or on the ground.
In the winter I also take a german issue folding foam mat an isomatte, great bit of kit for the money Ģ5 from:
http://www.flecktarn.co.uk/productsflc.html#bivouac
Extra insulation when it goes below freezing and an incredibly good sit mat when folded. It also fits behind the back of a PLCE Bergun taking up very little room and giving extra comfort on your back.
RovingArcher
13-12-2004, 19:41
I guess I can say both. I use a Thermarest Ridge Rest foam pad in 3/4 length and find it very comfortable and during colder times, the design of the pad helps to trap warm air, which adds to a little to the comfort level. It is bulkier than the Thermarest self inflating pad, but is a little less weight.
Squidders
13-12-2004, 21:14
Thanks for the advice everyone, I think i'll hassle the people in field and trek and get them to inflate a few in the shop so I can have a lay down.
:You_Rock_
Paganwolf
13-12-2004, 21:16
Thanks for the advice everyone, I think i'll hassle the people in field and trek and get them to inflate a few in the shop so I can have a lay down.
:You_Rock_
thats what i do matie try before you buy, thats the best policy :biggthump
The closed cell foam mats will in most cases insulate better than a Thermarest, but in terms of sleeping on the thing in UK conditions this is not noticeable. There is no reflective layer in thermarests they insulate in the same way as closed cell foam.
Will, I have to say that my experience is totally the opposite of yours.
My thermarests are much warmer than my karrimats which are the original and best yellow "expedition" pads.
The thermarest uses the same principle - air insulation trapped in foam to stop it circulating around - but is anywhere up to three times the thickness. Depending on the mat and how much your body compresses each of them, the thicker thermarest should be warmer.
I made the switch after buying a down bag and being surprised that I was much colder than in my old synthetic because of losing heat downward. The new Rab had loads more loft but compresses to nothing underneath. Swapping the karrimat for a thermrest solved the problem straight off.
I do use the thick camp rest and the medium thick guidelite matresses though, not the thin ultra-lites. :biggthump
Danceswithhelicopters
13-12-2004, 22:55
To throw a spanner into the works I have been looking at the Exped down filled sleeping mattress in which the stuffsac works as pump, the down gives a massive increase in insulation and it is full length. Ģ90 though....
Had a lie on it in the shop and it was sumptious. Its attached blurb tag sounded good. Only a little bit heavier than a Thermarest.
MagiKelly
14-12-2004, 15:00
To throw a spanner into the works I have been looking at the Exped down filled sleeping mattress in which the stuffsac works as pump, the down gives a massive increase in insulation and it is full length. Ģ90 though....
Had a lie on it in the shop and it was sumptious. Its attached blurb tag sounded good. Only a little bit heavier than a Thermarest.
I looked at these and nearly bought it but two things put me off.
First blowing it up with the bag is tedies and slow. I did it in the shop, once and it took ages. I would not do it again. You cannot blow it up as the moisture from your breath reduces the down's insulation.
The other thing it that when inflated the mat is quite thick but not that wide so your arms are on the floor a few inches below your back. Felt awquard.
Good concept but not for me I am afraid.
What's the weight range of the Thermarests?
Ive always been put off because I imagine them to be heavy and easy to damage, all of my foam mats have cuts from normal use, I like to just chuck em on the ground and use them to sit on whatever the ground is like, they pick up a fair few cuts from being on the outside of my bag as well though, dragged over crags or through woods.
I must admit I dont sleep as well on a foam mat as I used to so the comfort factor of the Thermarest has huge appeal but I dont want sth fragile heavy and expensive!
Jason
I like to just chuck em on the ground and use them to sit on whatever the ground is like, they pick up a fair few cuts from being on the outside of my bag as well though, dragged over crags or through woods
well thats the toss up init.. do you want a marginaly heavier matt which you have to be a little more carful with.. but that will give you a significantly better nights sleep IMHO..
or one you can do what you want with that will give you not such a great night on rough ground!
personally i offten pack Therm-a-reast in a hearvy duty dry bag which will stop thorns ect and carry it on the outside of my bag.. and have not found that i have been hindered by useing one.. i dont really do things differently!
im not sure what the weight difference is though? anyone know!?
Latest range Thermarest sizes and weights
Ridgerest series- Closed cell foam
Large 1lb. 3oz. (540g) 25x77x.625in. (63x196x1.5cm)
Regular 14oz. (400g) 20x72x.625in. (51x183x1.5cm)
Short 9oz. (260g) 20x48x.625in. (51x119x1.5cm)
Prolight4 series
Large 2lb. 1oz.(936g) 25x77x1.5in. (63x196x4cm)
Regular 1lb. 8oz. (680g) 20x72x1.5 in. (51x183x4cm)
Short 1lb. 1oz.(482g) 20x47x1.5 in. (51x119x4cm)
Prolight 3 series
Regular 20oz.(570g) 20x 72x1in.(51x183x2.5cm)
Short 13oz.(370g) 20x47x1in.(51x119x2.5cm)
Expedition series
Large 2lbs. 15oz. (1330g) 25x77x1.75in. (63x196x4cm)
Regular 2lbs. 4oz. (1025g) 20x72x1.75in. (51x183x4cm)
Short 1lb. 8oz. (680g) 20x47x1.75in. (51x119x4cm)
Trail series
Large 2lbs. 15oz. (1330g) 25x77x1.25in. (63x196x3cm)
Regular 2lbs. 4oz. (1025g) 20x72x1.25in. (51x183x3cm)
Short 1lbs. 8oz. (680g) 20x47x1.25in. (51x119x3cm)
Base Camp series
XL 4lbs. 3oz. (1890g) 30x77x1.75in. (76x196x4cm)
Large 3lbs. 8oz. (1590g) 25x77x1.75in. (63x196x4cm)
Regular 2lbs. 11oz. (1220g) 20x72x1.75in. (51x196x4cm)
They get even heavier but I don't think anyone here will be needing those.
Gives an idea of the comparable weights.
Its a good idea to take a repair kit with you when you use a thermarest and treat the mat with some respect to avoid punctures.
woodsitter
16-12-2004, 13:49
I used Thermarest for several years. I did well usually but in winter it's still very chilly. You lose a lot of heat via the ground because your sleepingbag is compressed and it will provide limited insulation.
I have a exped down mat now and it is great. Much much better. You get 3 times the insulation 4 times the comfort at the same weight and half the packsize (you foild it before roling it up, so it will fit in your pack without trouble).
Of course is costs more. But not much more than a thermarest. If you buy it via some online shop it's even cheaper. I don't really understand what the problem was with your pumping. Actually I think it's genius.
The carrying sack is your pump, so no extra weight. It has a little vent in the bottom that connects to the valves of the mat. You put up your tent, unpack your mat and open the valves. Make dinner, eat dinner, put kettle on fire for tea, return to your mat and voila it's already halve full. Close one valve and connect the pumping bag to the other one, fill the bag with air (just open it) close the end and press the air into the mat, reopen the bag and repeat 5 to 8 times. Close the vent, drink your tea, sleep well. No hassle at all. Just don't blow it up with your lungs because the downs will get moist. And of course if you puncture it, you have a problem, but that's not different from a Thermarest.
Thermarest = good night's sleep = good day's work = happy boy/girl.
i havent got one but i know people that have and all of them say they are rubbish :?:
I've tried em all Closed Cell, Inflatable, canvas with metal legs, rattan. But in my opinion the thermarest is the 'puppies peas' of sleep mats. Warm, comfy, simple and after 3 years of abuse mine is still peachy. Can't fault em' :super: :biggthump
bushblade
17-12-2004, 19:46
Will, I have to say that my experience is totally the opposite of yours.
My thermarests are much warmer than my karrimats which are the original and best yellow "expedition" pads.
The thermarest uses the same principle - air insulation trapped in foam to stop it circulating around - but is anywhere up to three times the thickness. Depending on the mat and how much your body compresses each of them, the thicker thermarest should be warmer.
I made the switch after buying a down bag and being surprised that I was much colder than in my old synthetic because of losing heat downward. The new Rab had loads more loft but compresses to nothing underneath. Swapping the karrimat for a thermrest solved the problem straight off.
I do use the thick camp rest and the medium thick guidelite matresses though, not the thin ultra-lites. :biggthump
Depends on which closed cell mat you compare to which thermarest, most closed cell mats would insulate marginely better than the pro lite series which I was recomending. If you were to compare this to a ultra lite or guidelite that the pro lites have replaced, then the thermarest would insulate more. Likewise the expeditions at 5cm's thick and using guidelite/ultralite technology would insulate more, and the base camps with solid (non die cut) foam would insulate even more still.
We sell some 13cm thick high density closed cell foam mats at work, which certainly insulate as well as a expedition but nowhere near as comfortable.
The point I was trying to make was that there is no reflective layer in thermarests, they insulate in the same way as a closed cell mat just as you described above. :biggthump
Absolutely, :biggthump
And thanks for "ranking" them too Will. Now what could I do with a 13cm closed cell foam mat :o):
Certainly wouldn't get thistles through my groundsheet anymore :rolmao:
Cheers
Squidders
18-12-2004, 14:18
I may end up going for the Expedition series (Large).. in fact, I may pop into town and brave the crowds and get one today.
Squidders
18-12-2004, 14:19
I may end up going for the Expedition series (Large).. in fact, I may pop into town and brave the crowds and get one today.
Thanks for all the help all :You_Rock_
bushblade
18-12-2004, 17:59
Absolutely, :biggthump
And thanks for "ranking" them too Will. Now what could I do with a 13cm closed cell foam mat :o):
Certainly wouldn't get thistles through my groundsheet anymore :rolmao:
Cheers
My mistake that was supposed to be 13mm not 13cm :oops:
We do have some mats that are 10cm thick but they are realy overkill.
Squidders
18-12-2004, 19:00
I had a lay down on the expedition one and it was fairly uncomfortable... maybe I just have a heavy rear end but it hit the deck through the mat when I was laying down.
I may have a look at the larger one they recommend for car camping and just be a man about lugging it about :roll:
bushblade
19-12-2004, 17:22
I had a lay down on the expedition one and it was fairly uncomfortable... maybe I just have a heavy rear end but it hit the deck through the mat when I was laying down.
I may have a look at the larger one they recommend for car camping and just be a man about lugging it about :roll:
If any part of you body is touching the ground through the mat then you just need a bit more air pressure in it.
It doesn't realy matter what the users weight is any thermarest can be fine tuned for comfort.
The way to do this is over inflate the mat by blowing into it, then lay down on it. The mat will feel very firm and not very comfortable, while still laying on it let a bit of air out at a time. With any thermarest the maximum level comfort to be had will be at a point when you sink into the mat as much as you can without touching the floor. If you do touch the floor, just let a little more air back in. This will only work when you are laying on it, if you just sit on it of course you'll touch the ground beneath.
What shop did you go to? the shop staff should realy have known this.
It does not make a difference what your weight is, you could use a pro lite no problem. And to be honest, unless you're sleeping on concrete, there is not a great deal of comfort to be gained from the thicker thermarests over the lightweight ones, as long as you know what you're doing. So I say keep your pack light and go for the Pro lite.
I hope that was of use to you.
Squidders
19-12-2004, 17:51
I did blow it up... I just wasn't impressed.
Been using them since 1991 -wouldn't use anything else.
George
Great Pebble
24-12-2004, 02:43
This is one of those "been done before" threads, but for the record I don't like Thermarests at all. Nothing intrinsically wrong with them, but IMO have no advantages over a foam mat at all and a few disadvantages, principle of which is being overly complicated for the job that needs doing.
I've had a Thermarest since around 1977. Still have the first one I ever bought and never had a problem with it. I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I did buy a 3/4 luxury edition and it's super. I use it with a very thin piece of closed cell foam padding that I slip under my feet. This doubles as my camp chair.
During the winter, I sleep with a closed cell foam on the bottom and a thermarest on top. You get great insulation and a comfy bed for the night.
Hi I want to show you my last purchase that should have been the first.
http://www.backpacker.com/gear/article/0,1023,7050,00.html
I have tried closecells mat=no confort at all my waist bone dig in the ground when side sleeping.
I have tried self inflating mat=confortable if you use the thicker models but them to voluminous.
I have tried airpad= confortable but cold becouse only air into them.
And my new Agnes=WOANDERFULL!!!!!
I can sleep as confortable as in my LATEX bed.
You can inflate it with 23 breaths and get a touch confortable mat that is warm too, you can go to one edge of the pad and mat keeps its shape and confort and when you take out the air you can roll it in a very tiny packet becouse any material into, the inner core of primaloft seems no to be there.
Now I spent many night sleeping in my new pad instead that in my real bed.
Enjoy
faca, thanks for the tip. It doesn't surprise me that it works well. Calvin Rutstrum did it for years by putting down in his air mattress.