View Full Version : New law on knives for under 18?
gillmacca
12-12-2004, 14:04
BBC News (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4089283.stm)
How (moderated: inaproprate word) Is That Stoping Ppl Carrying Them Because Of Fools
Like you never see someone under the age of 18 with a beer in their hand, or someone under 16 smoking.
Its always the legitimate/responsible/law abiding people who suffer. I would rather they put more police on the streets and frisked the kids on the way in to school.
seems a reasonable law to me, it does not stop you carrying them for justifable use.
it only prevents the purchase of them by persons under 18.
I don't think a ban on knives will ever be implemented, as we all need kitchen knives. I think that a age on knives raised to 18 would be a good idea, but wouldn't make it much harder for youths to get them, just gives police a reason to confiscate them once found on a youth, and quite rightly so.
However, that means that some of the younger people with good intentions would be effected. I think the best thing to do would be to leave it to police discretion. The last thing a police officer wants is abuse, if your not abusive or threatening, and if you appear like someone who wouldn't intend harm, then you may be let off.
The change in the law is ok with me. there is no justification for carrying a blade to school. However i would be saddened if young people were stopped and searched routinely. Not all youngsters are criminals and we need them to keep faith with the law.
As usual the dim witted cannon fodder ruin it for all.
This is a trend to label all knives as weapons and those that carry them as as criminals. Its not the fact that you have to be 18 to carry them, its the implications of the restriction that should raise concern in all of us who carry knives without any intention of using it for criminal purposes. The "thinking" behind this sort of law is that people who carry knives will use them for criminal purposes e.g. to maim and kill, take away the knives and they will not have other means of doing so. This ignores all the other things that can easily be used as weapons, screw drivers, iron bars, rocks, rope the list goes on. It also implies that there are a lot of people out there who will maim and kill if they get a knife in their hands but are otherwise normal. This proposed legislation is another nail in the coffin of our centuries long freedom to be presumed as responsible citizens and not weak minded morons who will be influenced by an inanimate object into commiting criminal acts.
I had my first knife when I was 9 and have not commited any criminal acts with them. I intend to give my children knives when I think they have shown enough sense and responsibility to have them. It will way before they're 18.
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 15:05
Yes, well said. If they were to restrict knife sales, rather than restricting all knives to an age limit, which is useless (I have a friend who can whip up a false driving licence in minutes for you, enabling anyone to look a certain age) they might just restrict the types. I mean, very few people need a bowie knife. Which isn't to say nobody does - so, like a .30 calibre rifle, perhaps the police could ask you about what you're using it for etc, and stop you if you have a bad criminal record. I'm against banning, but if something were to happen, then that might be the best way.
And nobody needs a knife like some of the ones on this page: http://www.battleorders.co.uk/acatalog/MASTERCUTLERY_KNIVES.html
Wouldn't be my choice of EDC but to some collectors they are beautiful. :?:
C_Claycomb
12-12-2004, 15:28
I am in full agreement with Shing.
:rant: following..... :roll:
My parents gave me my first pocket knife when I was about 8 or 9. I saved up and bough my first knife when I was 10, it was a SAK which I still carry today, 18 years later!
Right through school I carried two knives every day, my trusty SAK and a little lock knife. At the time the law had not specifically prohibited this. On a day to day basis I would have had a hard time coming up with a "Good" reason for carrying either. They were simply useful for all sorts of things, generally things I wouldn't have thought of before hand.
It never even entered my mind to use them as weapons.
I am deeply concerned over the way things are going now. There is a vicious cycle going on between the media and today's youth. Kids now automatically see knives as weapons first, often they don't think that they could be used as tools at all. This is how they see them portrayed in the media.
Weapons have always been more glamerous than purely utilitarian tools. Boys are nearly always more interested in fighter planes than transports, tanks than trucks. Weapons are a way of getting power and gaining control. Tools are just boring. The news says knives are weapons, politicians and teachers are visibly worried by them, so of course that is how they will get used.
Once you had to actually have COMMITTED a criminal act to be a criminal. Now you merely have to posess something which someone else consideres COULD be used by someone who MIGHT harbour criminal intentions.
When will it become a crime to think impure thoughts?
:rant: over :rolmao:
C_Claycomb
12-12-2004, 15:49
Arctic Hobo,
Compromise restrictions don't tend to work for anyone. One group loses freedom, and no real impact is made on crime.
I read an article about knife use in prisons, the range of things that get turned into shanks and shivs was staggering. It convinced me it was utterly pointless to try to reduce crime by banning, or restricting, things that look "scary". As long as people use knives in the kitchen there will be an excellent range of "weapons" available for those so inclined.
There are plenty of people out there who cannot understand what bushcraft is about, cannot see there is a shred of reason for it. They find out you own a knife and immediately think you are strange and possibly dangerous. Explaining it is for bushcraft (if they have heard the word) only confirms to them that you ARE strange and are living out on the fringe of sanity.
Don't stand divided just because you can see no reason for bowies, or daggers, or art knives, there aren't enough differences in the eyes of most people to separate them from puukos, gransfors and goloks.
SquirrelBoy
12-12-2004, 15:50
Once you had to actually have COMMITTED a criminal act to be a criminal. Now you merely have to posess something which someone else consideres COULD be used by someone who MIGHT harbour criminal intentions.
That unfortunatly seems to be the way things are going.
Its for this reason I have given up on carrying stuff in my cars `survival bag` for want of a better name, as some of it could be classed as dodgey e.g meths, SAK, even a survival tin with potassium permanganate in.
I can only imagine what the nice policeman would think doing a quick search... and to be honest Id rather not spend my day at the local copshop.
SquirrelBoy
12-12-2004, 15:55
There are plenty of people out there who cannot understand what bushcraft is about, cannot see there is a shred of reason for it. They find out you own a knife and immediately think you are strange and possibly dangerous. Explaining it is for bushcraft (if they have heard the word) only confirms to them that you ARE strange and are living out on the fringe of sanity.
EXACTLY what happened when I said and showed my lady friend a gleaming new GrannyB - should of seen the look on her face :shock: It was if I was from another planet :roll:
RAPPLEBY2000
12-12-2004, 16:57
i agree the new law seems ok,
chances are it won't really stop kids buying knifes (same way under age drinking and smoking continues)but it may make the salepeople more aware of the sort of person they shoulden't sell to.
i'm all for sensible use of knifes by sensible people but you have to draw a line.
i once was in my local surplus shop and overheard a young man interested in a knife saying:
"oh its not for cutting stuff, its just cos theres a bloke i know i just want to "sting" him" if he comes after me.
quite rightly the shop didn't sell him anything! :shock:
it's one of those endless debates should we allow knives or not, well i feel safe in the knowledge that not many people carry knives on the street, i need to carry a small knife to open boxes at work and i know other people do to such a fishermen and diy types, laws like this are passed to "reduce" knife related violence i hope they bring one out on replica and blank firing guns!
i agree the new law seems ok,
it will make shaving more of a problem. It's no fun having to get your sister to buy your razor
surely pencil sharpeners are blades. Kids may need to replace these
Like you never see someone under the age of 18 with a beer in their hand, or someone under 16 smoking.
Are we likely to see kids round the corner from outdoor stores saying "Psst, mate...if I give you the money, can you go in and get us a Woodlore knife with mylar handle?"
Sorry - didn't mean to trivialise a serious point. If someone wants to carry a knife, they'll nick it from the kitchen.
RAPPLEBY2000
12-12-2004, 19:23
totally agree, but it's the world we live in, in the us guns are legal so people carry them and occasionally use them, to protect themselves, but equally any pe4rson with evil intent can legally carry one,
i'm not saying we shoulden't have knives i'm just saying the older you are the more responsible you are, i remember when i was 13 i found a discarded butcher knife which i subsequently used for bushcrafty stuff, i felt fine about carrying it about. question is:
would you be happy with a 13 year old boy carrying around a butcher knife in your local woods? because that's what i did and at the time thought it was ok, also i remeber when i was 15 buying a "survival knife" (underage) i had a friend that bought a Kbar replica, which i'm sure was never intended for cutting wood, and another friend at school bought a machette to school, this is all under the age of 16!
as a parent i would be very concerned if i knew kids had knives at my kids school, not only because they can be missued fallen on, fought with but i believe kids should be around a resposible adult if they are going to be using potentially dangerous tools, same as they are in a craft lesson.
the thought that a kid under the influence of drugs anger, alchohol ect could kill my son or daughter or any other which is aparently on the rise is enough reason for me to restrict the availability.
in my mind it has nothing to do with "bushcraft", as bushcraft is on the whole set in woodland or wilderness areas, or certainly out of the public eye, where you would be frowned apon for not having a knife.
No I wouldn't want my hyperthetical children going into a school where people have knives like that. But there are already laws in place to try and prevent that
TheViking
12-12-2004, 21:14
totally agree, but it's the world we live in, in the us guns are legal so people carry them and occasionally use them, to protect themselves, but equally any pe4rson with evil intent can legally carry one,
i'm not saying we shoulden't have knives i'm just saying the older you are the more responsible you are, i remember when i was 13 i found a discarded butcher knife which i subsequently used for bushcrafty stuff, i felt fine about carrying it about. question is:
would you be happy with a 13 year old boy carrying around a butcher knife in your local woods? because that's what i did and at the time thought it was ok, also i remeber when i was 15 buying a "survival knife" (underage) i had a friend that bought a Kbar replica, which i'm sure was never intended for cutting wood, and another friend at school bought a machette to school, this is all under the age of 16!
as a parent i would be very concerned if i knew kids had knives at my kids school, not only because they can be missued fallen on, fought with but i believe kids should be around a resposible adult if they are going to be using potentially dangerous tools, same as they are in a craft lesson.
the thought that a kid under the influence of drugs anger, alchohol ect could kill my son or daughter or any other which is aparently on the rise is enough reason for me to restrict the availability.
in my mind it has nothing to do with "bushcraft", as bushcraft is on the whole set in woodland or wilderness areas, or certainly out of the public eye, where you would be frowned apon for not having a knife.
I have to disagree at some points here, sorry.
I have never used knives when drunk. I never carry (even a legal) a knife when going to parties, hall dances, etc.
Me carrying fairly heavy, razor sharp leuku and SAK, shouldn't be a problem. I've learned safe use of cutting tools, almost since I could say the word knife (one of the few bushcrafty type things my dad has taught), therefore my father or mother never watches me when dealing with knives, because they know I can use them responsibly. :wink: :-)
Just my thoughts.
RAPPLEBY2000
13-12-2004, 04:06
i know, me too, i'm sort of agreeing with both sides really, i don't have a problem with responsible adults carrying anything.
its the potential for it to get into the wrong hands easily that i have the problem with.
do you remeber the day you were 16 or 18 you suddenly felt the urge to try out the new 18+laws, (in more than one way :roll: ) same goes for this if a thug wants to buy a knife or any other tool and use it as a weapon they can. it's just having of them on the street which i think is the important issue.
i don't think anyone wants to stop knifes being used for sport/leisure it's the use by young/ teenage men/women for fighting in cities that is the concern.
chugnut7
13-12-2004, 08:45
Minimum five year sentence for carrying a knife. BBC News Article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4090897.stm)
Bloke on the radio this morning seemed to think that this was unlikely to become law. Cited the many legitimate reasons for needed to carry a knife i.e. anglers preparing bait etc.
Tantalus
13-12-2004, 08:51
just my tuppence worth.........
havin lived in varous countries around europe
britain is fast becoming the most "antiseptic" country that i know
everything remotely nasty is being removed from our streets and our lives ....... including basic freedoms but i digress
i grew up in the country and animals and plants are food
only to get the food out of em you need a knife, it is simple
have eaten fish on uninhabited islands in the med
worked grape picking in france
spent countless weekends in the bohemian backwoods
wandered bavarian forests foraging for mushrooms
please don't get me wrong about kids and schooling, but the authorities have been running schools with ever increasing regulation about what they can and can not teach
somewhere along the line they forgot to add ....and taking knives into the streets to try and scare people is bad
now instead of admitting the apalling holes in discipline they plan to make it illegal and arrest people who "don't know any better"
sorry if this sounds political but we used to get safety lessons on crossing the road, and brushing our teeth, don't play with matches, what would be wrong with a section on being responsible around sharp objects?
all of the above activities involved sharp knives for legitimate purposes
fishing hunting foraging etc
as for a ban well i just dont see it being too practical
any 12 year old can pick a kitchen knife out of the cutlery drawer
will parents be held responsible for this? :?:
Tant
I've carried a knife all the time since I was eight - even at school. The teachers knew about it and there was no problem coming from a rural area I think most kids did, they were never used for anything more sinister than sharpening pencils and cutting paper (well ok, some kids carved their names in the desks ). In the current climate I have the sense to take it out of my pocket before going out for the night These days even at work where I use mine extensively people look at you like you're some mind of underworlder when you get it out to do something perfectly legit like trim a bit of wire or slice tubing. I've seen a number of news articles stating that noone can have a legitimate reason for owning blades such as machetes - well some of do, most of us here I suspect.
The media is rapidly equating knives with guns, I can see the point with the number of stabbings that go on but if this carries on we'll be into plastic safety scissors. A creative mind can always find a useful weapon, even a house key can be nasty.
Realgar
tenbears10
13-12-2004, 09:37
I agree we need laws to stop people committing crimes that is obvious but what I don't agree with is that we need laws to ban everything that can be used to commit a crime. It is a sliding scale if knives are not allowed then criminals will use something else. In prison, I believe, people make an effective weapon by melting the bristles on a toothbrush and sharpening the hard plastic blob. Shall we ban toothbrushes?
The way to create a society that understands how to act responsibly is not to impose stricter controls on everything, as people have said banning things glamorizes them even more in the eyes of young impressionable people. It is not so cool to carry a knife if your dad and everyone else you know has one in their pocket.
Bill
R-Bowskill
13-12-2004, 09:57
About 10 years ago I was on the jury for a murder trial, Lad stabbed his sisters' boyfriend with a SMALL kitchen knife. One thrust and it went into the other lads heart. He picked it up off the kitchen side one day when there was an argument. Nothing like the insane designs alot of youngsters seem to be impressed by that are totally impractical for any legitimate use.
Sometimes in shops I hear people who seem to be still in school saying how great some knife that's styled on something in a sci-fi film is which is worrying as there is nothing legal they could use it for and if it's just going on the wall it doesn't need to have an edge.
In many ways this is like the issue of martial arts weapons, In principle I'm opposed to bans, but if something can kill another person then restricting the sale to people who can show 'good charicter' and a legitimate reason to have it etc as with firearms is a better option than either a free for all or an inflexible ban.
It sounds good in the media when politicians propose banning something, usually gets them some votes, but without enforcement and penalties a ban isn't worth the paper it's written on. Teaching people to take responsibility for their actions is harder but more effective.
When I was at school I know a guy in our year who stabbed another in the leg, we were in home economics and guess what... we were cutting veg up, the school supplies those knives!
When I was at school (god I feel old) 4 craft knives went missing in one hour. These are nasty shape things. Enen in this case I never herd of anyone getting attacked.
Someone said how they wouldn't want their kids goig to a school where kids brought big nasty knives like the ones he and his mates used to take to school. I'm not saying I think knives should be allowed in school with no reason but did anyone get hurt?
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 11:24
There are very adequate laws in place to control knife use and purchase....all the police/government have to do is enforce them.
None of this is about sensible use of knives, it's about media hype. All the way through you could change the word "knife" to "gun", "crossbow", "Blowtorch" etc etc etc.....
When are we going to wake up to the fact that it's people that can be evil not these items?
If, and it's a very big IF, this auto 5 year jail term comes in....some of YOU will go to jail....don't think you won't because you see "bushcraft" as legitimate....a mandatory sentence is just that...mandatory! You would also be unwise to rest your freedom on the fact the the copper who pulled you was sympathetic to you carrying whatever you are carrying....I wouldn't want to play russian roulette with 5 years of my life on the dependency of a policeman's mood.
It's sad that we need to check/search schoolkids but then we have to search everyone at an airport, going into some themeparks (certainly in Florida this year) so why not have a metal detector at the school entrance?
I'd rather my kids were searched each morning in a this non-invasive way than they and me risked 5 years in prison because I wanted to teach them bushcraft.
This is not to mention the fact that those members of sociatey who shouldn't carry knives will still carry them anyway....again, look at hand guns.....nobody's allowed them but lots of criminals have them......meanwhile our olympic pistol team has to practice abroad.....madness!
BIG-TARGET
13-12-2004, 12:26
Remember, Kings and dictators perfer unarmed subjects!!!!!!
C_Claycomb
13-12-2004, 13:08
Heading off topic :roll:
In this particular case I don't think that "Kings and dictators" has the slightest bit to do with it. To be honest, I don't think that the idea of an armed populace keeping goverment in line has any bearing on anything in the UK. The populace here hasn't been armed enough, or had that revolutionary mindset, for a very very long time.
Back on....
I don't see why it is assumed that young people cannot be responsible. There are fewer and fewer things which young people can be "trusted" to do, there are ever more rules of things they can and cannot do. The law for a long time took the view that people under a certain age weren't even responsible enough to answer for their own actions.
I think that is where much of the problems have come from. This hole we are in is the result of our constant effort to make things "safe" and "free". The combination of permisive laws, and reduced personal responsibility has brought us here. Reducing responsibility further, by banning yet more things, or controlling them more tightly will not fix the problem.
Society has to be self policing. The only way that the police and the government can guarantee the safety of everyone is to strip all personal freedom. They can't stop every crime unless there is a policeman on every corner.
Additionally, I haven't heard of anyone getting stabbed with some Gil Hiben Klingon death cudgel. If some adolescent thinks that would be cool, more fool them, sharp or not it will probably end up under their bed, only taken out to show mates. The knife that will be used as a weapon most often will be some market stall folder, cheap hunting knife, something from the kitchen section, or a craft knife. Screw drivers, or even melted cling film work fine too...
I would rather live in a world where I could be mugged at knife point, than in one where I pass multiple metal detectors and density scanners while out shopping. :-(
"There are fewer and fewer things which young people can be "trusted" to do, there are ever more rules of things they can and cannot do.... Society has to be self policing."
Couldn't agree more Chris, lack of trust and fear of allowing children to make mistakes for themselves restrict young people from developing responsible attitudes towards all the 'cool' things they aren't allowed to go near.
In response there is a push to abdicate all responsibility for oneself and prostrate everybody in front of the state in an effort to protect the vast majority from an acknowledged few.
Calls for even stronger knife laws have been called for, including:
"a five-year minimum jail term for carrying an object with a blade longer than three inches, which would equalise the penalties for knives and guns.... Also want to see a six-month minimum jail term for carrying a blade shorter than three inches, or three months for juveniles."
Pretty heavy demands. Full story at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,1372631,00.html
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 14:46
That's a very valid point you make about guns/knives both having the same penalty Aelfred....
I'm a law abiding person but if I was a criminal (regardless of age but it appies to youngsters just as much...the "Cool" brigade) and I knew I'd get 5 years for carrying a gun and i'd get 5 years for carrying a knife....then if I'm honest I'd rather have the gun....better self defence and much bigger cool factor and show off ability.....and seeing as I'm doing a 5 stretch it might as well be for a sexy Glock17 than a rusty old sickle!
Do you all see the point now? Lets seperate guns and knives..... guns only shoot so while still a tool they are a limited tool....but a knife, well, that's about the most versatile tool I can think of.....
tenbears10
13-12-2004, 15:11
If I read the Guardian article correctly then these parents are trying to push to introduce a mandatory jail sentence of 6 months for carrying a knife less than 3 inches 'on the street'.
That makes no distinction between fixed or folding, locking or not, valid reason or scally wag. All of which means that if this is made law I would go from being a responsible law abiding adult to a criminal overnight just because I have a sak on my belt to open boxes and post at work. Why is that right?
:aargh4:
When this country learn that you can not stop crime by banning things that could be used as weapons? if knives are banned only criminals will have knives and the ones that don't will stab people with scissors. Will we ban them next?
I am going to have to move to another country if this keeps up.
Bill
Roving Rich
13-12-2004, 15:17
Well, I think Bambodoggy said it best from my point of view.
Banning knives will have no effect on crime. Criminals will still carry knives as they do hand guns. Psycopaths will continue to mame and kill people using kitchen knives screwdrivers and broken bottles. The only result is honest law abiding citizens wont have a pocket knife for the million and one applications they are so handy for.
I think this is a case of media hype once more. I don't believe a ban on pocket knives is possible. I have carried one since i was about 8 years old and my Father is the same. I doubt either of us would consider removing them, as neither of us have ever used a knife in anger. Its just too handy a tool to be without.
It is a law impossible to inforce. Imagine prisons full of gardeners, fishermen, pipe smokers and carpet fitters. I can't see the pipe smoking pensioner parting with his beloved penknife and I see no reason why he should. This is just another civil right being removed to pander to the negative news media. :twisted:
Funny, I can't help thinking I might be better off out of this country. Canada appeals, safer than here, and they all have guns, knives ans are allowed to go hunting. :roll:
my 2ps worth
Rich
Tantalus
13-12-2004, 15:18
sorry tenbears but the guardian has not reported this correctly
i watched the press conference live on the bbc's website this morning and a clear distinction was made between legal sub 3 inch slipjoints, and illegal sub 3 inch lock knives/ fixed blades
Tant
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 15:23
IF, and it's a very big IF, this auto 5 year jail term comes in....some of YOU will go to jail....don't think you won't because you see "bushcraft" as legitimate....a mandatory sentence is just that...mandatory! You would also be unwise to rest your freedom on the fact the the copper who pulled you was sympathetic to you carrying whatever you are carrying....I wouldn't want to play russian roulette with 5 years of my life on the dependency of a policeman's mood.
This is not to mention the fact that those members of sociatey who shouldn't carry knives will still carry them anyway....again, look at hand guns.....nobody's allowed them but lots of criminals have them......meanwhile our olympic pistol team has to practice abroad.....madness!
I hate to quote myself.....but hey, we'll ALL be criminals over night!
Luckily (at the moment anyway) even our government isn't that daft....................is it? :yikes:
Where you going to move to then Bill? Can I come? :pack:
Tant....I know you're only only reporting as you see and not saying it's right or wrong but if a knife is sticking 3" into your best mate does it really matter if it folds or not? I've never understood the folding issue....
tenbears10
13-12-2004, 16:08
sorry tenbears but the guardian has not reported this correctly
i watched the press conference live on the bbc's website this morning and a clear distinction was made between legal sub 3 inch slipjoints, and illegal sub 3 inch lock knives/ fixed blades
Tant
That seemed to be too crazy even for the nanny state. Still my ingram and allan blade knives will get me 5 years so maybe I shouldn't worry about the sak just yet.
bambodoggy, parts of the USA sound nice, Canada is great by all accounts, hopefully i'm going to New Zealand for a couple of weeks next year and I think I wont want to come back, hell anywhere is a big step up from this place at the moment. It is not where I want to move to but as long as it is not here. The rest of europe can not believe what is happening in the UK. The price of everything, banning everything that is dangerous/cruel/will win votes*
*delete as appropriate.
:rant:
Bill
chugnut7
13-12-2004, 16:39
Should we as a (online) community of citizens be considering campaigning against this should it ever be seriously considered?
Our rights and opinions are as valid as any others. Everyone here has made cogent and sensible points against the premise on which this proposal is based. A petition, engaging those in the bushcraft community with high public profiles, letters to MPs etc. might help us all avoid a criminal record.
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 23:08
Trouble is Bill....they all seem really hard to get into! I think by choice I'd be headed to Canada.....but the US would come a close second :o):
Actually Canada has some pretty strict firearms laws (brought in in the last 3 to 5 years) but they are what I would call sencible laws....there for a reason and not just as a knee jerk vote winner!
Go for it Chugnut....I'll vote for you! :super:
masongary44
14-12-2004, 13:40
This is a really emotive subject for many people. My first thoiught when i heard the news report was that of an article i saw as a kid (15 years ago) discussing crossbows and their legality. To demonstrate their point they used a pair of coke cans, one shot with a crossbow bolt, the other stabbed with a kitchen fork, and the crossbow bolt did only half the damage!!!.
I tend towards the feeling that this is driven, in the main, by media hype, but the fact is that a large number of offences against the public are caused by ill motivated persons with knives. If we take away the knives, then logicaly the violent acts should also deminish, but what heppens next.....
Anyone intending to do harm to another person, be it stabbing them, shooting them of simply bludgeoning to death has no regard for the law to start with. If they can not get hold of a pen / lock / sheath knife, then theres the kitchen knife. If we keep going with this we go right down to blunt instruments, baseball bats, rounders bats, lumps of wood. I would like to see them try and ban metal cuttelery from school canteens, or rounders bats from the playground.... even a sharp pencil could be used to kill!!!!
There will always be those that want to inflict harm on others, and they will always find something with which they can inflict harm.... it seems a shame that so many innocent people, with truly genuine reasons for ownership always seem to be the ones that get punished.......
RobertsonPau
15-12-2004, 18:02
I agree with the majority of what has been said, I don't want to end up as a criminal because of my hobbies.
I also send my condolencies to the parents and families of all those who have been victims of ataccks in recent months.
As with a lot of issues involving young people parents and society 'expects' 'somebody' to do 'something' about it, be it lack of performance in exams, anti social behaviour, under age sex or whatever. Usually it is teachers that are held responsible, personally I have worked with young people a lot ovwer the last few years and the common denominator in most cases is lack of support from the adults in their home. I honestly believe that parents, and I am one, need to accept the responsibility of educating their offspring in acceptable behaviour and being a responsible member of society, rather than expecting teachers, or the state to do it for them.
Sorry, rant over. I've spent too many years listening to parents and young people pass the blame onto others.
Great Pebble
15-12-2004, 19:51
:?:
On thinking about it, you really don't want to hear what I think about this matter.
thats just asking to be asked.
We're all big girls and boys and can take it you know
Squidders
15-12-2004, 20:54
Andy, I think Nicks post would be like mine and full of "Moderated - you kiss your mother with that mouth?!?"
Joe
I think its wrong to separate knives into kitchen (good) and everything else (evil). Some people may feel its wise to appease legislators by agreeing to label some knives as evil or unnecessary and ban them but that allows them to define what is a "good" knife and what is a "evil" knife, a ridiculos notion as if inanimate objects has some sort of free will. I think WWII has shown how well appeasement works.
As to only having thing we need and banning everything else, we don't need cars that can travel at over the speed limit so we ban sports cars, we don't need to eat fatty foods so ban butter and ice cream, we don't need TV so we'll close done the BBC, we don't need privacy so we put a spy camera in every home in the land and have a secret police force. The difference between free people and the oppressed is free people define thier own needs and wants, the oppressed have it decided for them.
bambodoggy
23-12-2004, 15:10
Stand by for the next round of media hype about banning knives.....any of you who've read/seen/heard today's new will know a man in North London with mental health problems has just run amuck and stabbed up to 6 people killing one of them!!!!!!
I don't want to say anything more about the incident as my heart goes out to the victims families especially at this time of year but you just know the British media is going to hyjack this!
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1165068,00.html
I think we all share you sympathy for the relatives of the families of the poor people involved in the sad incident. Possibly another case like Clunes (sp)
I hope the media focusses properly on the poor state of mental health care in this country rather than the fact a knife was used.
falling rain
23-12-2004, 16:34
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4119135.stm?markResults=true&a_01=1&a_02=2&a_03=3&a_04=2&a_05=1&a_06=1&a_07=3&a_08=3&a_09=2&x=43&y=23
Take a look at question 2 on this BBC quiz on the law. I got it wrong and put A. Surprisingly the answer was b and remember this is for swiss army knife. Would it be safe to assume that if you were on your way to the woods and could prove you were into Bushcraft that you may be ok. What would a Laplander be classed as. What if you have your Granny B, Knife ,and Laplander altogether in the boot of your car, A laplander could be a vicious weapon when slashed across someones face. 6 months in Jail :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:
bambodoggy
23-12-2004, 16:57
I hope the media focusses properly on the poor state of mental health care in this country rather than the fact a knife was used.
I'd like to think they will as it clearly needs looking at but in the current climate of media anti-knife hype I suspect they won't! We shall see....
I'd like to think they will as it clearly needs looking at but in the current climate of media anti-knife hype I suspect they won't! We shall see....
Providing useful mental health care facilities would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, a kneejerk tightening of the knife laws would cost considerably less. What do you think the government will do? :?:
BIG-TARGET
23-12-2004, 23:21
Providing useful mental health care facilities would cost hundreds of millions of pounds, a kneejerk tightening of the knife laws would cost considerably less. What do you think the government will do? :?:
It like blaming flies for garbage :aargh4:
Sorry, I will state that now, I am quite old fashioned, I used to carry a knife to school, I never stabbed or threatened anyone with it, I used it when I went "into the bush" in the countryside around my school, I even got asked if I could use it by the head of RS (Rural Studies) when at school.
The problem is not the law, but society as it is. When I was a kid we did not have ASBO's, we did not need them :
If you behave like an adult, then I will treat you as an Adult, If I got out of line then I would know about it.
Society has pushed responsibility for thier children away from the family in this country and the problems are getting worse, if only because society has limited what parents and people in authority can do.
We had the cane, the slipper and god knows what else, but even having carried a knife that had a 5" blade at the time no peril ever came to me, the other students or adults at the school.
I think that we need to look at the way we live in this country and make a stand, this is my opinion and not that of the website, just so there can be no confusion.
Great Pebble
24-12-2004, 04:14
I can remember being stopped by police when about 10 - 12 years old and asked about what I was doing with a catapult. A "Black Widow" type thing that I took everywhere. A little bit of explaining and they let me go, no problems. But, here's the thing. There was a US pilots survival knife stitched across the pocket of the Italian combat jacket which I lived in at the time (I'd seen helo pilots with survival vests and thought it looked cool). The knife wasn't even mentioned, I think it was assumed at the time that every lad carried a knife of some description, especially during summer holidays.
When I was a kid coming back from training i was into martial arts from an early age. i had taken my knife collection to show a friend. I was cycling the 7 miles home and i must have lost the carrier bag containing the knives and my wallet off the back of my bike. 20 minutes after getting home i got a phone call from the police to say the had my wallet. i cycled down to the station and they returned my wallet and carrier bag full of knives without a word.
A few months ago i found a wallet with cash in not much about £5 but it had the lads driving license and student card etc in it. So i went to the same police station. Firstly i had to use a telephone on the door outside to make a call to the main police call centre before i could get them to send an officer to open up. it was about 8:30pm. Then the rather bored looking desk jockey asks why i think they are a lost property office and what i expected them to do about it. :yikes:
Strange world we live in these days.
Not strange Wayne SAD and getting SADDER - the more we molly coddle and bow and scrap the less respect people have for themselves and others. Look at the shop keep stabbed over two bottles of booze thats what a life is worth these days.
masongary44
24-12-2004, 09:09
If the knife law changes for the worst, then Bushcraft would become a very difficault thing to practice. After all, most things require some kind of cutting instrument, and if a swiss army knife is enough to buy you 6 months inside, i can not see that anyone would get away with a billhook or small forrest axe.....
I sometimes wonder how I would defend myself against the law if I had my rucksack searched while walking through a small village (as i often do) when out for a few days with mother nature.... I understand the current state of the law, but i am not sure any justification at the moment would be good enough to passify an over zealous police officer....
I hope I am wrong....
I just hope that the police are able to continue to use their discretion in these matters.
Calls for knife laws to be tightened so that the penalty for possesion is the same as with a gun are not sensible. Does that mean that having a knife in your own home would be a gaolable offence?
Legitimate reason in a legitimate setting - works for me. But you will still have to excercise your people skills to keep the policemen on your side if you get stopped and asked.
As sad as it is, and it has been said time and time again. It is the person with the item that does the damage, not the item itself. I seem to recall someone killing themselves with a pencil during an exam many years ago. Dont see the governement banning pencils from schools.
How many people remember either being assaulted by, or assaulting with compasses, rulers etc whilst at school? Get the risk assessment done for that.
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 10:57
You're not wrong Gary.....it happened to me, I'm not going into details but as I've said before...trusting that the police and then courts will accept that you do bushcraft is a very unwise thing to do. Those of you whom work in the bushcraft business may be ok as your work is a valid reason for carrying (provided you are at work or directly on your way to or from it) but the rest of us......it's a hobby and that counts for nothing.
Leon, I also carried a knife of some sort as a youngster...usually not more than a lock knife or more usually an ex-army clasp knife and the same as you I never had a problem. Never murdered anyone, never robbed anyone, never threatened anyone....I didn't even gouge my name into school desks or park benches. But when I went to school there was no cane, no slipper and no god knows what else...my parents very rarely smacked me and if they did it tended to be because I was being dangerous rather than just naughty....don't get me wrong, I was frightened of my Dad (in a natural way...not terrified or anything) but they just didn't really do smacking.
Now I'm not anti smacking in anyway and this isn't the place for a smacking discussion but I don't think this has anything to do with the current state of the nation. I was brought up with a lot of love and also an awful lot of freedom, I was allowed to head off in the morning before my parents were up and wasn't ever expected back till tea time, my parents never knew where I was or what I was doing but they knew I understood right from wrong so they let me roam...I'm forever grateful for that. I'm not saying my parents were perfect but I believe they brought me up well and I suspect a lot of you guys and girls think the same of your parents.... the problem is bad parenting in general in this country not a lack of some form of beating. Yes you need to have punishment but to me having my legs slapped was nothing compared to having my clasp knife confiscated or being made to stay home of a beautiful sunny summers day!
From what I saw this morning and last night the news is very much talking about knives once again.
It strikes me that the fact that this man has mental heath problems and that this was even mentioned is quite something....do they think all the other people that do this sort of thing are perfectly sane? Was Michael Ryann a sane man as he stalked Hungerford? Was that chap up in Dunblane sane? Of course not...it's hard for me to imagine a more insane thing to do.....but what changed after those two events......? The mental heath care in this country? No...they made your car a public place so they could search it, they decided that you could carry a penknife but needed just cause for a knitting needle/hat pin etc and then banned all handguns......meanwhile seriously mentally ill people were allowed back into our community without any proper monitoring let alone any support!.....It makes me soooo cross and for some of those patients it must have been very scarey to suddenly be all alone like that.
Better stop there before I go into full on rant mode!!!!
Again, as we discuss this topic our thoughts and sympathy must and I'm sure do stay with the families of the victims this christmas.
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 11:08
Rob...we used to take the blades out of pencil sharpeners and use them to split the pencil from the top and then fix the blade in and bind it back together with sellotape....bit like fixing an arrowhead or spear tip... this gave us a great slashing weapon and a lot of us had one of these.... nothing to do with hurting anyone and I can honestly say I don't recall anyone ever getting hurt. They were used for slashing each others pencil cases and school bags to see if we could get all the stuff to fall out.... it wasn't bullying as it happened to everyone equally it was just kids messing about....I don't know why but somehow we ALL knew how far to take it and when to stop.....was lots of fun though :naughty: Godness knows how many of mine got ruined that way!!! lol
Couldn't do that now Bambodoggy, you'd be done for attempted assault, destruction of property, racism and god only knows what else...
Under the eyes of the government there is no such thing as 'harmless fun' or 'innocent fun' nowadays. The only permissible fun is going to the cinema or playing exceptionally violent often pseudo pornigraphic games on pcs, x-boxes and ps2s that extoll the virues of stealing a car, dropping drugs off at clubs, picking up persons of negotiatable favours and trying to outrun police...:soapbox: :rant:
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 11:45
Sad isn't it Jak.... suddenly that idea of dropping off the map and leaving society to it's own devises doesn't seem so far fetched or unappealing....roll on the wilderness life forever! ! !
falling rain
24-12-2004, 11:45
I have a friend who is a police officer and I'll be seeing him sometime over Christmas so I'll ask him what their guidelines are, and what would be the score if he stopped a car (or person on foot) and the occupant was a 'Bushcrafter' with Axe, Knife, and folding saw. As far as I understand it if you can prove a legitimate reason for carrying the items you should be OK, but the laws the law and you still would be in possesion of offensive weapons even if you were in the countryside. Michael Ryan did most of his killing in a rural area of Hungerford so I really don't know how it would be dealt with. Also the type of clothing Bushcrafters wear can look a little para military at times and to the uninitiated may look like you're some kind of S.W.A.T or gun freak. Of course if you were in the middle of a city there would be absolutely no justification for carrying a knife but as another thread was saying (fear of the woods) some of these nutters go to the woods to carry out their rapes or murders (with Knives) You'd have to prove to a police officer you wern't one of these nutters !! It's all very complicated and maybe there is no definative answer and depends on which copper stops you but if they really wanted to take it to the letter of the law anyone of us could find themselves in serious trouble. All of the tools we routinely carry in the woods, are at the end of the day offensive weapons. It may be different for the chef with his set of knives on the way to work, but few of us do Bushcraft for a job as has already been mentioned. If you really think about it it's pretty scary.
That's part of the whole problem Nick, we don't carry offensive weapons.
What we carry are tools, for use in the woods to help us camp. Its onyl our blinkered headliner society that brands them 'offensive weapons'. I'd just like to know why cars aren't labelled offensive weapons, they kill far more. Especially in conjuction with alcohol...:soapbox:
Sadly as long as the majority of the public only watch the telly, go to the pub and try to chat up the bar keep then any activity you do will set you apart from the masses and therefore you will be in some sort of out group that can be beaten with the stick of media induced hype.
Are we going to be the last generation that can safely go into the wild places carrying out bushcraft tools without committing a crime?
We all choose to ignore the odd bit of legislation but an automatic 5 year stretch is going too far. I also wouldn't want to rely on a jury not to convict me either. I have served on a jury and found the behavior of barristers to be mind blowing.
I know this thread is becoming somewhat polictical but this is possibly the biggest threat to Bushcraft in the UK for years
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 12:25
FallingRain, Wayne and the rest of you are all very right.... you may be lucky enough to be stopped by a nice understanding police officer but as I said earlier in this thread if they bring in the 5 year sentance...is it worth gambling 5 years of your life against carrying a woodlore knife? ? ?
The offensive weapon laws are the least of your worries as a bushcrafter, it's not so hard to prove that what you have isn't an offencive weapon although as has been stated in our courts things can easily go either way.... what you need to look into more carefully is the points and blades act....this is what I fell foul of and while it isn't as serious as an offensive weapons charge it does leave you with a criminal record and what really rubbed salt in it was that during an agournment I bumped into the police officer in the loo and I swear to god he actually appologised to me and said if he'd known it would go this far he'd have sent me on my way when he stopped me. It's not always the police to blame for being heavy handed. after the whole thing was over the court clarke handed said item back to me and warned me to be careful taking it home!!!!!! I asked him how I'd got it back and he said it wasn't illegal to own this item but just have it in a public place (in this case the boot of my car), I asked him what was to stop the police arresting me again for the same thing on the way home and he said nothing...that's why he warned me to be careful!!!!! How?
The difference, by the way, has nothing to do with size of blade etc.
Having said all of the above I will still be taking my knife's and axes and saws into the woods and to our meet-ups.... I have no intention of giving up my tools without a second day in court....just hope it doesn't come to that!
Having said all of the above I will still be taking my knife's and axes and saws into the woods and to our meet-ups.... I have no intention of giving up my tools without a second day in court....just hope it doesn't come to that!
Here! Here! bambam.
The crazy thing is I carry far more blades, and also far more dangerous stuff when I have to go out on engineering jobs than when I'm going into the woods and the coppers just smile, nod and ask me where they can get the same items from as they want to do some DIY.
And when I worked as a locksmith they NEVER asked why I had a small jemmy, a padsaw, various master keys, several 'devices' for getting cars, and other sundries about my person...:?:
falling rain
24-12-2004, 12:43
That's part of the whole problem Nick, we don't carry offensive weapons.
What we carry are tools, for use in the woods to help us camp. Its onyl our blinkered headliner society that brands them 'offensive weapons'. I'd just like to know why cars aren't labelled offensive weapons, they kill far more. Especially in conjuction with alcohol...:soapbox:
Exactly Jak. We carry tools. But not everyone will see them as tools as you said. Lets have a little scenario.
You're out in the woods minding your own business carving a bit of wood with your knife dressed in you normal olive green gear. (Some people wear DPM but hey.) Little old Mrs/Mr - do gooder, always poking her nose in, walks by and sees a man with a knife in the woods. (Not a man passing time, and enjoying himself at peace with the world) Calls police, police come. What are you doing then mate ?. - I'm practicing my hobby which is Bushcraft. - What's Bushcraft then ? - You explain. - The fact is sir you are in possession of tools and a knife that are not legal in a public place. (yes I know, but we havn't all got access to private woodland before anyone mentions it) and be honest have you ever got your knife out to trim a bit of bark etc in the local public woods. I bet we all have.) - Arrested - up before the jury - (as Wayne said ) would you like to bank on it that the jury would know or care what Bushcraft is. The fact is - YOU HAD THAT KNIFE AND THE LAW SAYS IT'S ILLEGAL. Not everyone would understand. - Bang - 6 months jail :yikes:
This of course is an extreme scenario but however not impossible. And if you were unlucky enough to have a very good and over zealous prosecutor against you, it could all end in a lot of tears. I will continue to carry my tools and I will continue to practice my Bushcraft out of sight of the public as far as I possibly can. I just hope that keen copper, and judge, and jury never come my way.
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 12:48
I'm not a big fan of Prince Phillip as he does seem a bit of a prat but for entertainment value some of the things he says are priceless but one thing he said after dunblane struck a cord with me..... He was totally slated and ripped to bits in the press for saying it but I think he was quite right. It strikes me that the press hammered him just because......they could!
This is what he said, not verbatum as I can't remember but you'll get the gist of it.
"If we are banning guns because of the actions of one mad man with a hand gun then I can only imagine we will soon be banning cricket and baseball as there is plenty of cases of these bats being used for unlawful purposes".
He's saying exactly what most of us are saying....it's not the item that matters, it's the person carrying them and what they do or intend to do with them that matter.
He's still an old duffer but there's a brain in there somewhere! lol
May be we shouldall start carrying a copy of RM's books and videos with us to prove that we are all perfectly upstanding and responsible members of the public. After all, even the girls in Tescos working on the checkout know who that 'hunk wiv de beard is. Ooh he's dreamy. I wouldn't mind sharing a sleeping bag with himmm'.
PSYCHE NURSE TO CHECKOUT 11. STAT!!!
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 12:52
Lol...you watch little britain Jak?
Ooooooowwwwww, he's Goooooorgeous!!!!!! Fwwwwwoooorrrrrrr!!!!!!
you guys need to get out more :o):
Bambam, no, I rarely watch tv. Too much s**** on it like Corrie and all that. Just had a chat with a girl on the check out.
Wayne, I know, that's why I'm on this forum and try to go on as many meet ups as I can...and why I want a car so that I can just pick up my pack and disappear for a fw days and forget about BT, engineers, the internet, :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4: :aargh4:
falling rain
24-12-2004, 12:58
Here! Here! bambam.
The crazy thing is I carry far more blades, and also far more dangerous stuff when I have to go out on engineering jobs than when I'm going into the woods and the coppers just smile, nod and ask me where they can get the same items from as they want to do some DIY.
And when I worked as a locksmith they NEVER asked why I had a small jemmy, a padsaw, various master keys, several 'devices' for getting cars, and other sundries about my person...:?:
There we go Jak. you wern't stopped because you needed those tools for your job, same as the chef in my earlier post. We do Bushcraft for a hobby, so would a man who was an exhaust fitter at quick fit and a Bushcrafter in his spare time get away with carrying a knife in the woods on a sunday morning. He may, but it's just possible he also may not. I'm getting a Sami knife for christmas with a 9'' blade. That's over the limit so I'll only be using that on very private land. BUT and here's the rub. How do I get to that private land. and the answer is along public highways or along a public footpath etc. I could well be stopped. :shock:
I wouldn't bank on it Jak, I have often heard 'Ray who?' even on bushcraft courses - its no get out of jail free card.
As for the scenerio, I often practice my skills on Public land, Epping forest is covered with byelaws as well as the standard ones - which is good as way to many idiots have access to it - but my point is if I go over there and decide to carve a spoon for example I have to practice utmost caution. I will find a sheltered spot and keep an eager eye out the whole time.
Most people make more noise than a passing wilderbeast so putting the knife away isnt a problem but personally I think it is wrong we should be made to behave like this.
What has happened to this country in the last 10/15 years that has made it such a terrible place to live, I spent 15 years of my live defending this country for what? - I was going to say police state but lets face facts only the innocent law abiding poeple need fear the police anyone else just laughs at them.
Sorry semi-rant over.
Ah, but Nick I was stopped without any ID on me. They only took my word that I was a locksmith...
I've also recently got a very nice Sami from Gary, and as I generally travel by public transport...
One thing I have learnt is to be proactive.
A few years ago I had to go to a Warlords wargamming meet in London during a time when guns were in the papers all day every day and had to take up a number of replica weapons. Being a responsible person I contacted BTP and asked for their advice. I told them what I would be carrying (various handguns, a few rifles, some machine guns and a shot gun with around 2,000 rounds of BB ammo), how I would be carrying it all and what trains/tubes I intended to carry. I got a very nice letter back thanking me for being such a responsible person and saying that I should take the letter with me in case of any trouble. I did get stopped as some old biddy was suspicious of a guy carrying a few gun cases, but after a brief discussion and then about 30 minutes chatting with the guys about the sport of Airsoft and letting them fondle my gear, they gave me a lift to the event and asked for detaisl of the games so they could have some fun too. (I nearly had to rifle but one guy to get my shotgun back!!!).
So maybe if we did similar when carrying a Hoodoo size collection of blades, the police might be a bit more understanding. Maybe a letter or e-mail from whoever organises the event with contact details?
I am always happy to be proactive and take a sensible action. However the point is we are law abiding people and often as not we are practising skills alone away from organised events. Although meet ups are good bushcraft is for me a solitary activity. i wouldn't want to only be able to go to organised events or risk arrest.
bambodoggy
24-12-2004, 13:22
It won't always help Jak....when I got done under the points and blades act I was on my way to the cadets to run a downed aircrew survival weekend for the younger cadets.... as soon as it happened my Sqn adj sent a letter on headed paper to explain why I had what I had...it made no difference to the case going to court and when it was there my CO came and spoke for me...again it made no difference!
I do agree this is a good approach if you can do it but imagine having to do this everytime you want to nip down the local woods for an afternoon....it's amost like asking permission!!!!!
I know what Gary means....I too find myself hiding as people go by because I have tools that could look up setting to some people.... then I always feel cross for having to "hide" to carry out my hobby!!!!!!!!!!
I know what Gary means....I too find myself hiding as people go by because I have tools that could look up setting to some people.... then I always feel cross for having to "hide" to carry out my hobby!!!!!!!!!!
Then of course you are a man in the woods armed with a knife and acting in a suspicious manner.... You can't win. :cry:
SquirrelBoy
24-12-2004, 16:15
A bit off topic - but I remember being stopped by the police, was driving an XR2 at the time :naughty: and they asked if they could search my car..
I said ok and they went over my motor and me, not much fun in the middle of a busy street. Anyway when they came across a plastic bag full of big chunks of flint they gave me very funny looks and made calls on their radios (to whom?) - even when explaining the Ray Mears factor (who..? etc). As Gary says its no card to freedom. They let me go along but not before taking my details - made me feel like a criminal.
Also the amount of police presents around here (Heathrow M25) is getting absolutly mad. I was driving home on Monday and passed a line of ARMED Police on a duel carridgeway, must of been at least 10 cars, bikes the lot.. Wednesday was very much the same. I know its probably for a special reason but do think the times we live in are getting very suspisious of everything going on. Good for the countrys security I guess but what about our right to live :roll:
Can you imagine being caught with a few craft tools, bag full of hexi tabs,cotton wool soaked in vaseline, snare wire... on the way to or from a wood - `Of course you were sonny,now lets have a chat back at the office...`
The times are a changing me thinks and I really dont I like it :cry:
Rhapsody
02-01-2005, 18:54
That's quite frankly an idiotic decision. Any person that could possibly use a knife against another person is not going to take any notice of any new measures and the only people that will be hindered by such a change will be lawful people using blades for harmless recreation. I truly believe that any new regulations would be passed solely to appease the public rather than to get anything positive done and, being the cynic that I am, I find this to be a sad reflection of the powers that be in this country.
Ho hum.
Can you imagine being caught with a few craft tools, bag full of hexi tabs,cotton wool soaked in vaseline, snare wire... on the way to or from a wood - `Of course you were sonny,now lets have a chat back at the office...`
I know what you mean, I live near Gatwick.
Last summer, I was driving into the T5 site at Heathrow, to do a mornings work before going on to help DG out with one of his WildLife courses. I remember being on the phone to my mum, and said to her that I may have to call her back as I was about to go through security.
She said that it wasn't like I had a load of "weapons" in the back of the truck. "ahem" said I, remembering the selection of bows, arrows, knives, axes etc that I had stashed in the back.
Luckily the T5 security will let anyone through as long as you wave and smile :wink:
Wonder how the police would have reacted to my attempts to fashion arrowheads from glass bottle bottoms that I carried with me on the way home :rolmao: