View Full Version : A ban on online knife sales...
sandbender
01-07-2009, 05:47
This from the BBC...
"Trading standards officers have called for a ban on online knife sales after a machete was sold to a 15-year-old for £1.50 over the internet...The tests found that 214 out of 835 stores in England and Wales sold knives illegally to under 18s....according to tests by trading standards departments in the London boroughs of Southwark, Lambeth and Greenwich, as well as Staffordshire, Salford and Cardiff.They found that 58 out of 72 websites selling knives were prepared to sell to children aged under 18, often because they failed to ask the buyers' age."
Story here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8127174.stm).
:(
There's a deeper agenda here. The government yesterday dropped it insistence that ID Cards will fight terrorism, and shifted the focus to proof of age. So it would make sense that they will now lean on other agencies to up the ante on age-related crime.
Sorry to be a cynic, but if they can move this along before next May then we're all stuffed...
I truly do not believe that in this day and age shops that sell knives were so stupid.
This smacks of compiled statistics to me :rolleyes:
cheers,
Toddy
Or 3 in 4 shops refused to sell knives to persons under 18. That’s 75%, that’s better than the stats for underage kids buying booze, and the kids do that in the shop where the owners can clearly see that they are underage.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." Or the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments Mark Twain/Benjamin Disraeli
I've just written a more detailed piece on what's really going on here:
http://www.computerweekly.com/blogs/the-data-trust-blog/2009/07/id-cards-communications-genius.html
Apologies for the rant :)
Tobes
wanderingblade
01-07-2009, 11:32
So, are we going to have a 42 page thread where we all preach to the converted, or do we actually do something this time?
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
Get your voice heard.
I had a machete when I was a kid. Cut brush with it. Had sickles and scythes too. Cut weeds with them. Sometimes I missed the weeds and cut some wheat down. That's how I became a cereal killer. :p
wanderingblade
01-07-2009, 12:44
Has anyone worked out whats really at stake here?
If there is a ban on online sales then it will have to be a total ban on imports as well as UK purchased items.
If the UK government ban UK businesses from selling knives online but continue to allow other European companies to sell and export to the UK then this will be a direct contravention of current EU law.
So, we have two possible outcomes - the EU legislation works for us and makes any ban unworkable or we see a total ban on knife imports to the UK.
Or will the UK government simply rely on there being little chance of a concerted challenge on these grounds from a fragmented, apathetic and unorganised UK knife industry?
Melonfish
01-07-2009, 16:53
ah another typical reaction, hey they've been selling to underage people, i know lets ban em.
no, more like lets figure out why they've managed to sell to underage people and fix that. what with the ligitimate use of knives in constant demand....
why is it people really don't think!
gregorach
01-07-2009, 16:53
Hey, it's just trading standards officers, and they're only calling for a ban. Given that such a ban is (as far as I can see) completely unworkable given international trade rules, they can call all they like, but it's not going to happen. It would probably never make it out of committee.
Hey, it's just trading standards officers, and they're only calling for a ban. Given that such a ban is (as far as I can see) completely unworkable given international trade rules, they can call all they like, but it's not going to happen. It would probably never make it out of committee.
You mean like they banned airgun sales in UK on the web or phone now has to be a face to face thing. You can however sell to the rest of the EU from your Internet site.
ATB
Duncan
wanderingblade
01-07-2009, 17:55
..........but it's not going to happen...........
Thats what they said about eBay banning knife sales :rolleyes:
Hope you are right.
something these TSO's forget is that if we continue to call for bans like this then at some point there is going to be nothing to be a Standards Office of and they wont be in a job
I truly do not believe that in this day and age shops that sell knives were so stupid.
They will have been tripped up by pre-pay credit cards.
Surprisingly tedious to confirm that an online buyer really is over 18 and isn't just saying they are.
I'm looking at an online system which will no doubt cost me an arm and a leg but do nothing other than inconvenience genuine buyers.
I've more I'd like to say on the matter but it's politics!
When I recently bought a Clipper online, I was asked to tick a declaration thing to confirm I was over 18... all very standard I thought... 15 mins later, I got a phonecall from a very pleasant young lady asking for proof of my age. I asked her how I could prove it. She said I should scan my passport and e-mail it to them! Not being terribly technological, I explained that this wasn't going to happen, and she said they could not send it out with out proof.
Long story short, I ended up taking a picture of my drivers lisence on my phone, and texting it to her private number.
Didn't hold me up for more than 10 mins realistically, and my knife arrived in 2 days.
Pretty damned good all told...
either way the little guys Hobby makers etc will disappear
atb
Duncan
When I recently bought a Clipper online, I was asked to tick a declaration thing to confirm I was over 18... all very standard I thought... 15 mins later, I got a phonecall from a very pleasant young lady asking for proof of my age. I asked her how I could prove it. She said I should scan my passport and e-mail it to them! Not being terribly technological, I explained that this wasn't going to happen, and she said they could not send it out with out proof.
Long story short, I ended up taking a picture of my drivers lisence on my phone, and texting it to her private number.
Didn't hold me up for more than 10 mins realistically, and my knife arrived in 2 days.
Pretty damned good all told...
Hmmm, you sent a digital image of your drivers license. I can't think of less easy thing to photochop. :)
wanderingblade
02-07-2009, 08:33
Hmmm, you sent a digital image of your drivers license. I can't think of less easy thing to photochop. :)
Hmmm, debit / credit card details sent along with passport / drivers licence?
I can't think of a better way to steal someones ID.
So, are we going to have a 42 page thread where we all preach to the converted, or do we actually do something this time?
We're going to have a 42 page thread, dammit! Same as we always do!
As to providing copies of documents as proof of age, this is pretty standard. The fact that a customer was contacted immediately after making an online purchase is a sign that things are probably legit and, frankly, I'm quite impressed. If you are worried, you ask the caller to state their name, the company they work for, and then call them back after you've checked the number on the web.
There is a simple answer for those 'oi don't be trusting the interweb, they be wanting to rip me orf!' types - if you don't want to confirm your ID, don't buy the goods, but don't complain about it afterwards. There's nothing wrong with businesses trying to protect themselves from fraud and illegal activities. Don't try and worry Iona abut being part of a vendor's process to avoid court action/TSOs, etc - not helpful at all and a very Daily Mail/Express thing to do. Surely we should applaud this type of check as it will help the case for continuing online sales?
My dad won't buy anything from the internet as he's too scared because of hyped articles in the Daily Mail/Express/GMTV/etc. I buy loads of stuff through eBay, online websites, etc, and have confirmed age/ID a number of times too, and I have never - REPEAT NEVER - been ripped-off/cloned/etc. It's just a matter of being careful and, if you don't feel comfortable about something, don't buy. Simple.
As for knife sales, I suspect that it will go the way of airguns with face-to-face deals only. This won't make any difference to kids stabbing each other as they'll just take a knife from the kitchen. I believe it's a cultural/peer-pressure/fear issue and won't be resolved by cutting off the supply of Bernie Garland bushcraft knives - what 13-year old is going to spend £150 on a bushcraft tool?
I worry that banning online sales will affect the small, specialist makers who cannot get their products into shops. Their only outlets will be the moots/shows/festivals or personal contact. Part of me says that if someone wants a Dave Budd creation that much, they'll travel to the South-West to get one anyway! However, this will still result in reduced revenues for those that deserve better.
What about if you buy a knife at a game fair? If the vendor asked for a copy of your ID for their records, so they could prove at a later date that their sales were legal, would you do it? Or, would you say 'No way!' and give them a hard time, quoting 'human rights', 'data protection', 'personal privacy', and so on?
So, if Dave Budd or Bernie Garland, or any other of the makers on this site, ask you to send a copy of your ID, is your answer going to be 'No' because you trust no-one? Or are you going to help these guys make a living?
I'd choose the latter. What would you do?
PS - Before anyone has a go at me as I'm selling a couple of knives and an axe in 'Member Classifieds', not only do I demand a declaration, I also check age through the forum membership pages (if possible), and I will only go ahead with the sale if that person pays using a Paypal account in their name. I have already refused a sale previously as someone wanted to use a family member's Paypal account as they didn't have their own. Not a perfect system, I know, but the best I can do at the moment. I hope others follow a similar process.
phaserrifle
02-07-2009, 15:14
When I recently bought a Clipper online, I was asked to tick a declaration thing to confirm I was over 18... all very standard I thought... 15 mins later, I got a phonecall from a very pleasant young lady asking for proof of my age. I asked her how I could prove it. She said I should scan my passport and e-mail it to them! Not being terribly technological, I explained that this wasn't going to happen, and she said they could not send it out with out proof.
Long story short, I ended up taking a picture of my drivers lisence on my phone, and texting it to her private number.
Didn't hold me up for more than 10 mins realistically, and my knife arrived in 2 days.
Pretty damned good all told...
isn't that how hennie do things?
I've never had a problem, as I've purchased through mum and dad (otherwise I wouldn't be able to buy at all)
either way, even if we ban selling knives online, how is that going to stop kids carrying knives? most of the knives used in crime (even if we ignore domestic crime, where the figures make perfect sense) are kitchen knives. which are available to most kids via a quick trip downstairs to the family kitchen.
Melonfish
02-07-2009, 15:17
Phaserrifle is right, its time we banned kitchens!
Survival Bill
02-07-2009, 16:03
it sure would make life harder for knife makers in the UK wonder if they can survive if the ban goes through....
I wonder if there will be a workaround - ie, would one be able to buy knife KITS?
Picture it; young teenager, hoody and tracksuit, swearing profusely as he struggles to file away at a Reindeer antler handle so he can go out and knife someone :rolleyes:
phaserrifle
02-07-2009, 16:32
Phaserrifle is right, its time we banned kitchens!
NOOOOOOOOOOOO!
don't give them ideas. :p
I'm thinking we should ban stabbing people. oh, we have allready, and people are still doing it.
hmmmmm, maybe we could try getting the current bans to work then, rather than making more bans for the criminals to ignore, and to make more people who have no criminal intention either A) unhappy as they can't get what they need to do thier job/enjoy their chosen hobby or B) forced to perform a technicaly illegal act to do their job/enjoy thier chosen legal hobby (eg a complete ban on knives would stop chefs and butchers in their tracks)
wanderingblade
02-07-2009, 16:45
Hmmmmm, maybe we could try getting the current bans to work then, rather than making more bans for the criminals to ignore, and to make more people who have no criminal intention either A) unhappy as they can't get what they need to do thier job/enjoy their chosen hobby or B) forced to perform a technicaly illegal act to do their job/enjoy thier chosen legal hobby (eg a complete ban on knives would stop chefs and butchers in their tracks)
If you were to implement plans to tackle these issues, consider this:
How long will it take?
How much do you think it would cost?
How much positive media coverage would it attract?
Now consider a ban:
How long will it take?
How much will it cost?
How much positive media coverage will it attract?
From an MP's point of view, which one is the obvious answer?
From an MP's point of view, which one is the obvious answer?
Whichever one gets them the biggest expenses claim! :D :D :D
Ha ha, no, not really..they're all wonderful honest people. No, really, they are.
:ban:
Northsky
02-07-2009, 18:04
A few years back I used to play Airsoft Skirmishing, Yeah alright you can stop laughing now, thing is Airsoft guns where to be outlawed under if I remeber rightly the Violent Crimes Bill, Now the 'Industry' and players got themselves organised to fight what looked like lost cause and won and got Airsoft guns exempt. I now airsoft is a bit norrower than sale/use of knives but it go's to show what can be done.
(Down with the government,down with the self righteous, lying two faced politicians .I want a Government of Honest men and women that put the word GREAT back into this Country as I'm fed up of this namby pamby state.)*
Sorry don't mean to get political.
* Sorry, these are my views not the views of BCUK
So what is the accepted Proof the bulk ofthe shops who passed used ??
and how does an individual do it in the classifieds etc that will stand up in court when the scrots finds a work around ??
checking age on here has been mentioned but you can lie and a lot of people dont display it
do you need to be 18 to have a paypall account if so you probably dont to access your parents :rolleyes:
is asking for a statment that they are 18 enough ?? even if they lie
ATB
Duncan
C_Claycomb
02-07-2009, 20:01
Make it the parents' problem...make it illegal for them to own a credit card till over 18, make it illegal for them to surf the internet on an "uncontrolled" computer. That will prevent LOADS of possible crimes from happening.:rolleyes: :ban:
Letter to MP time :bluThinki
phaserrifle
02-07-2009, 20:06
If you were to implement plans to tackle these issues, consider this:
How long will it take?
How much do you think it would cost?
How much positive media coverage would it attract?
Now consider a ban:
How long will it take?
How much will it cost?
How much positive media coverage will it attract?
From an MP's point of view, which one is the obvious answer?
which is precisely the problem.
its like putting a plaster on arterial bleeding, it might make you feel a bit better, but it's not going to help much.
eventualy someone will spot that banning anything that can be used as a weapon will lead to the only logical possiblity (once we have banned scaffolding poles, bricks, torches, anything metal, snooker balls ect ect): ban people. then there's no-one to use the weapons!
A few years back I used to play Airsoft Skirmishing, Yeah alright you can stop laughing now, thing is Airsoft guns where to be outlawed under if I remeber rightly the Violent Crimes Bill, Now the 'Industry' and players got themselves organised to fight what looked like lost cause and won and got Airsoft guns exempt. I now airsoft is a bit norrower than sale/use of knives but it go's to show what can be done.
"Violent Crimes Reduction Act" (VCRA for short)
Great to see your pulse racing Chris
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
I vote for the BUNNY
wanderingblade
02-07-2009, 21:41
which is precisely the problem.
its like putting a plaster on arterial bleeding, it might make you feel a bit better, but it's not going to help much.
Exactly.
Gang culture?
Youth crime?
Stabbings and deaths in the streets?
Unprecedented violence committed by younger and younger people?
Sound familliar?
It should do - it's why flick knives were banned 50 years ago!!!
Did that ban solve the problem?
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Totally agree with you wanderingblade,same can be said for the new gun laws ,since they came into force gun crime has gone up.
I vote ban the government!!!
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
I vote for the BUNNY
__________________
So what is the accepted Proof the bulk ofthe shops who passed used ??
and how does an individual do it in the classifieds etc that will stand up in court when the scrots finds a work around ??
checking age on here has been mentioned but you can lie and a lot of people dont display it
do you need to be 18 to have a paypall account if so you probably dont to access your parents :rolleyes:
is asking for a statment that they are 18 enough ?? even if they lie
ATB
Duncan
I think you have to have a standard credit card for a Paypal account. I'd be quite disappointed if it was available to under 18s as it blows my ID check out of the water. :(
phaserrifle
03-07-2009, 11:43
Exactly.
It should do - it's why flick knives were banned 50 years ago!!!
Did that ban solve the problem?
exactly. and yet flick knives* are still available, if you know which shop to visit (an aquaintance of mine aquired one in a shop in portsmouth. fortuenately he isn't the kind of person who's going to use it, he just wanted a pocket lock knife for scouts, and thought it was cool)
as an aside, I believe they where banned due to their use by a gang known as the "teddy boys". which strikes me as one of the worst gang names in the history of mankind. not exactly likely to strike fear into the hearts of your opponents is it?
* by flick knives I mean what the US would refer to as "switchblades" knives which contain a spring which opens the blade when a button or simmilar is pressed.
Totally agree with you wanderingblade,same can be said for the new gun laws ,since they came into force gun crime has gone up.
I vote ban the government!!!
part of this (less so with firearms) is the "wrong place, wrong time" effect.
people who where on the right side of the law, suddenly find they arn't anymore, usualy by being arrested. more common with knives as they are an every day tool, and so people are less likely to realise that there are laws pertaining to them. (eg few people look on a stanley knife as a knife, but it is, and most lock.....)
andybysea
03-07-2009, 11:57
Without going political,doesnt this seem a bit like ''see if you had a id card you wouldnt have this problem'', eg some companies asking for passport scan(what if you dont have one) some asking for driving license scan(what if you cant drive) ''i know a solution if we all had a id card this would not be an issue'' you could just use that and prove who you are, i may be reading to much into this, but making more and more things harder to get,and needing more proof to do so leads me on a certain road of thought.
gregorach
03-07-2009, 12:02
I think you have to have a standard credit card for a Paypal account. I'd be quite disappointed if it was available to under 18s as it blows my ID check out of the water. :(
I have a PayPal account, and I only have a debit card. I'm pretty sure you can get a debit card under 18.
Still, many sites on the internet seem to get away with "You must be over 18 to enter this site YES | NO"... Or so I've been led to believe, anyway. ;)
phaserrifle
03-07-2009, 13:00
I have a PayPal account, and I only have a debit card. I'm pretty sure you can get a debit card under 18.
you can get a debit card from the age of 11. at least that's when nat west's "adapt" account starts, and that's card can be used as a debit card (which I have found very handy)
Without going political,doesnt this seem a bit like ''see if you had a id card you wouldnt have this problem'', eg some companies asking for passport scan(what if you dont have one) some asking for driving license scan(what if you cant drive) ''i know a solution if we all had a id card this would not be an issue'' you could just use that and prove who you are, i may be reading to much into this, but making more and more things harder to get,and needing more proof to do so leads me on a certain road of thought.
the problem is that that route is a political minefield (as we all know). the vast majority of people have either a passport or a driving licence. and even that's not a complete cure.
what if young jonny uses his dad's credit card, and his dads driving licence/passport/national ID card?
govt then decides that knives are still available to under 18's over the net, bans sale.
its a problem of culture: the fear of knives and youths, lack of respect between age groups and a lack of responsible behaviour by the yob element.
add to that the fact that the yob element appear quite large (a fair few adolecent muppets act like the "wellard ganstas" right up untill it comes to anything actualy risky, making the "gang culture" bigger despite the muppets not actualy being lawbreakers) and the fear increases.
You can get a debit card under 18 but I was under the impression you had to be over 18 to get a paypal account... maybe wrong there.
Pete
Ricky369
03-07-2009, 15:46
I have had a debit and paypal since i think 16
charadeur
03-07-2009, 20:00
Our government would view this as a way to increase their funding. It is not illegal most places here for minors to buy knifes but what our government would do is pass a law that mail order knifes had to be signed for by an adult on delivery. Then they would run sting operations regularly that minors would order knifes and if the mail order company did not require a signature they would fine them some ridiculous amount that is way disproportionate to the crime. :)
You can get a Paypal account using a prepay credit card as they appear as Mastercard in transactions, so no you don't need to be 18.
A statement on your site or sales material saying 'buyers must be over 18' or a tickbox or whatever does not indemnify you from culpabilty under the law. Caveat venditor I'm afraid!
Age verfication systems by the way run to about £1.20 (plus VAT) per check excluding set up charges and with a minimum of somewhere in the region of 900-1000 checks per annum. So about a grand to a grand and a half.
Think on that when you buy a clipper knife online!
Survival Bill
03-07-2009, 20:35
now your talking!
I vote ban the government!!!
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")
I vote for the BUNNY
__________________
https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KTmXwmy6XP 3GQpJpQYSkJy6wJLNp2rpvbG7byZCG THNZLcKhJnJ9!-122478607?locale=en_GB&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=GB&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9006&t=solutionTab&ft=browseTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionTopic=2500041&solutionId=163758&isSrch=Yes
seems paypal cant even verify drinking age you have to do it
ATB
Duncan
as an aside, I believe they where banned due to their use by a gang known as the "teddy boys". which strikes me as one of the worst gang names in the history of mankind. not exactly likely to strike fear into the hearts of your opponents is it?
The name 'Teddy Boys' comes from the clothes fashion they adopted, which was similar to those worn in Edwardian times. Another favourite weapon of the day, which you don't hear of now, was a bicycle chain with the edges of the links sharpened.
Jim
Phaserrifle is right, its time we banned kitchens!
And don't forget workshops and garages.. knives, screwdrivers, air tools, saws, tin snips compressors, welding equipment...Surely we're not responsible enough to be trusted with ALL THAT POWER?? And as for tree surgeons....The govt will surely have the screaming hab dabs lol
Knitting needles !!!...I'll get me coat:D
And don't forget workshops and garages.. knives, screwdrivers, air tools, saws, tin snips compressors, welding equipment...Surely we're not responsible enough to be trusted with ALL THAT POWER?? And as for tree surgeons....The govt will surely have the screaming hab dabs lol
Knitting needles !!!...I'll get me coat:D
you forgot, natures own ballistic missiles, rocks.
lets ban rocks.
Bummer about paypal not being sufficient; they should maybe come up with more than one type of Paypal account; an adult one which has to be verified somehoworother and an underage one, kinda like how citizen card (I think?) has different cards for adults and minors. Would sure make the whole thing simpler.
Pete
Wilderbeast
04-07-2009, 00:56
oh this is nothing.......my mate the other day got asked for id for a safety razor..........."You come near me boy and I will badly shave you're arm..........scary huh" it's obsurd, kids have had knives for years, and guess what we're still here.....ergo it dosn't spell the end of civilisation
8thsinner
04-07-2009, 01:40
Sometimes I have to look at the government and laugh fully and heartily, And in this case, the stupidity of the idea.
25% of shops are selling illegally, then shut them down.Or impose fines or something It's what the law is for as is, Don't add new laws, uphold those that are there now.
I doubt this will go ahead, but even if it did, I reckon it would last about as long as the sword import bans they began last year. Was it 4 months before the over 50cm curved blade ban was pulled?
Interestingly the pulling of this law was no where near as publicised as the ban itself was.
I probably could rant about this all day, but I just wanted to put in my contribution to the 42 page goal...
Has anyone asked to ban trees yet? Dangerous all that wood around, think of all the weapons you can make: forks, pokers, sharpened sticks...
We should save a bit of that dangerous wood to make a couple of very thick, short planks to send to the authors of the idea of the ban on internet sales)
I even saw a knuckle duster made of matchsticks and glued together with Prit-Stick paper glue, when I went to the Games Fair In Norwich a little while back. So ban matchsticks , please. (had been found during a Norwich prison cells search, along with a startling collection of impromptu weapons made with lighters and screws, nails, razor barbed wire)
Talking of ID, I bought a picnic basket yesterday as a prezzie: Guess what's in it.....yes ladies and gentlemen.... knives :eek: ...And guess what the girl on the till mentioned: my age:( . Now I am 58 so I don't think I look like I am under 18, which is very sad of course :rolleyes: So I gave her a gentle lecture about the fact that its not the knives that are dangerous, it's the people holding them. It's not her fault, she was just doing her job, so I was nice about it. But how stupid of the shop management who put that in place.
Has anyone asked to ban trees yet? Dangerous all that wood around, think of all the weapons you can make: forks, pokers, sharpened sticks...
We should save a bit of that dangerous wood to make a couple of very thick, short planks to send to the authors of the idea of the ban on internet sales)
I even saw a knuckle duster made of matchsticks and glued together with Prit-Stick paper glue, when I went to the Games Fair In Norwich a little while back. So ban matchsticks , please. (had been found during a Norwich prison cells search, along with a startling collection of impromptu weapons made with lighters and screws, nails, razor barbed wire)
Talking of ID, I bought a picnic basket yesterday as a prezzie: Guess what's in it.....yes ladies and gentlemen.... knives :eek: ...And guess what the girl on the till mentioned: my age:( . Now I am 58 so I don't think I look like I am under 18, which is very sad of course :rolleyes: So I gave her a gentle lecture about the fact that its not the knives that are dangerous, it's the people holding them. It's not her fault, she was just doing her job, so I was nice about it. But how stupid of the shop management who put that in place.
All items that are age controlled (knives, alcohol, aerosols, some medicines, etc) are coded to flag to the till operator that ID needs to be provided. If you don't provide ID, you don't get the sale - I've seen it happen in Tescos. It is an automated process that removes human error - so Tesco won't get fined/sued. It's their perogative; if we don't like, we shop elsewhere but any major supermarket will now use the same type of system.
There's little point in lecturing the till operator: they have no power to change anything (write to the board or customer relations (used to be 'customer complaints', didn't it?)), they can't help it (automated system), and, frankly, they don't care (what do you reckon the till girl said to her mates in the staff room about the plonker who tried to lecture her on knife use?).
Are we at 42 pages yet? :D
You can get a Paypal account using a prepay credit card as they appear as Mastercard in transactions, so no you don't need to be 18.
A statement on your site or sales material saying 'buyers must be over 18' or a tickbox or whatever does not indemnify you from culpabilty under the law. Caveat venditor I'm afraid!
Age verfication systems by the way run to about £1.20 (plus VAT) per check excluding set up charges and with a minimum of somewhere in the region of 900-1000 checks per annum. So about a grand to a grand and a half.
Think on that when you buy a clipper knife online!
Mmmm...blows my theory out of the water. Poo.
So, does this mean that vendors will now either have to pay the extra for the age verification system (and, presumably, add the cost to the knife/axe?) or, take a risk on being fined/sued for selling to minors?
my mate the copper suggested requestign a photocopy of a driving licence
Again eevn so its not armour clad but hopfully would show a court you tryed as best you could
even a face to face they can show you fake ID
ATB
Duncan
@Mikey P
Pretty much yeah.
Given how excitable the TS are at the mo, I expect there's a very high chance of an online shop being stung in the coming months.
There's little point in lecturing the till operator: they have no power to change anything (write to the board or customer relations (used to be 'customer complaints', didn't it?)), they can't help it (automated system), and, frankly, they don't care (what do you reckon the till girl said to her mates in the staff room about the plonker who tried to lecture her on knife use?).
You're right of course. I was not nasty to the poor girl, she was very pleasant and just doing her job, and I just told her that my view was it wasn't the knife that was dangerous, it's the person holding it, to which she agreed that made some sense. No doubt about being a plonker in their view though!!!:D
so what in general do the hobby Knife makers on here use in the makers market.
I would say we should make age shown on the forum compulsery But you can lie and i doubt Tony would like to take the legal responsibility for age checks but it may be worth looking at for pricing maybe, It may up the makers (knives) Subs but probably not as much if all had to do it on their own ??
i guess they already do for their own Sharps sales in the shop ( i mean Tony and BCUK shop )
ATB
Duncan
Prisoners in maximum security facilities manage to arm themselves with knives. How does a government expect to stop this among a populace with unlimited time and resources with which to solve the problem? Mac
They don't intend to stop any such thing.
They intend to be seen to 'do something', always the way with Governments I'm afraid.
wanderingblade
04-07-2009, 21:02
..........my mate the other day got asked for id for a safety razor
Please go back to the store and advise the manager that saftey razors (blade permentantly encased in it's holder with less than 2mm of blade protruding) are exempt from age restriction. ;)
Prisoners in maximum security facilities manage to arm themselves with knives. How does a government expect to stop this among a populace with unlimited time and resources with which to solve the problem? Mac
They don't intend to stop any such thing.
They intend to be seen to 'do something', always the way with Governments I'm afraid.
And here we have the entire situation in a nutshell.
(63 page political rant deleted to comply with forum rules!)
phaserrifle
05-07-2009, 09:56
you forgot, natures own ballistic missiles, rocks.
lets ban rocks.
and their brothers in arms, bricks.
All items that are age controlled (knives, alcohol, aerosols, some medicines, etc) are coded to flag to the till operator that ID needs to be provided. If you don't provide ID, you don't get the sale - I've seen it happen in Tescos. It is an automated process that removes human error - so Tesco won't get fined/sued. It's their perogative; if we don't like, we shop elsewhere but any major supermarket will now use the same type of system.
There's little point in lecturing the till operator: they have no power to change anything (write to the board or customer relations (used to be 'customer complaints', didn't it?)), they can't help it (automated system), and, frankly, they don't care (what do you reckon the till girl said to her mates in the staff room about the plonker who tried to lecture her on knife use?).
Are we at 42 pages yet? :D
they have that at poundland. it doesn't work, the cashier just crossed the warning off.
as I was 16 at the time, buying lighters was technicaly illegal (although I don't think blacks even have the warning, and I was 15 when they sold me one)
The till-prompts for age restricted sales doesn't remove any liability, it is strictly a nudge to remind people to ask for ID. I work in a newsagents, and if I sell cigarettes or fireworks (when it's that time of year) to someone underage and get caught, I am held personally responsible but the shop gets a fine too, IIRC. I really do hate IDing people, especially since I always think people are younger than they are; it's a bit embarassing asking someone for ID for cigarettes and finding that they're 29, when I'm only 20 myself...
Is there any way at all to distinguish from a Credit card, debit card or prepay card? Seems to me that the most reliable way of checking age was to do a credit card check. Yes, someone could use someone elses card but I don't see how the seller could be held responsible for that. If you can't distinguish though, then that obviously wouldn't work...
IMO, the blame is at the feet of the government; there isn't a reliable small-scale method of proving age over the internet that I am aware of. I mean, passports and drivers licenses are all well and good in person but I daresay it would be much easier to fake a scan of a passport than fake a passport. Therefore, they should form a nice big circle and give each other a kick in the posterior for complaining about people not upholding a law that has, as of yet, no realistic and foolproof means of being upheld. Introduce a decent way of verifying age that doesn't involve meeting face to face or giving the government your DNA and fingerprints, and if people don't use it, then complain.
No, there is no way of telling the difference between a regular credit card and a prepay. At the moment though only Mastercards are available prepay.