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I hope that you agree that this news is encouraging.
Earlier this year, I expressed my concerns to EBAY regarding the sale of Crossbows on their site. They were available for less than £15 (with the P&P) and were beign openly marketed as toys and for hunting in the UK.
I am pleased to have received an email from EBAY, stating that the sale of thsi type of bow will be restricted from 20th December.
Lets hope that this is a step closer to people being able to use crossbows legitimately and safely, and reduce the problems caused by inappropriate use.
Well done EBAY :You_Rock_
Paganwolf
09-12-2004, 20:32
Well Done Rob! very well done, crossbows are a seriously nasty bit of kit in the wrong hands! good thing you saw them, a very upstanding thing you've done if you ask me :biggthump
Full Marks Rob. :You_Rock_
RovingArcher
09-12-2004, 21:14
Well done Rob. Many of us here have been trying to rid the woods of the crossbow. Unfortunately, there is a large body of people that see them as a way to get more people into the woods, because they don't require hardly any practice to use. In my opinion, sending a bunch of yahoos into the woods with a lethal weapon and without a bit of savy or ability, is reckless and irresponsible.
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 22:06
One of my sister's friends was shot in the stomach by a teen with a crossbow - well done you :You_Rock_
Thats got to hurt. Hope she recovered OK.
My parents house was recently damaged by a teen with an air rifle over a number of days. Police were not interested until my farther threatened to go around and thump him. The police would then arrest my dad. go figure. :?:
It is a strange land that we live in. :shock:
Ive no problem with cross bows at all,however i do think that there should be some kind of age restriction on there purchase.Its ridiculous how to buy an air rifle you have to be 18 or is 21 now days but there is no age restriction on bows.I mean which is the more lethal a 12foot pounds air rifle or a cross bow/bow.
Dont get me wrong, I am all for people using equipment in a safe and legitimate manner. I think that Crossbows have a bad reputation, due to past incidents.
I come across people shooting them in competitions, and it is a skill in it's own right.
I am not too up on my crossbow speeds, but I have shot bows that send out arrows at over 300 feet per second. That is fast enough for my liking.
What we need on kit like this (along with knives, guns and anything else for that matter) is risk awareness and sensible use. I dont like seeing bows being sold in Army Surplus or gun/fishing tackle shops - and I am pleased to say that I always try and question the shop manager/owner.
If we dont police ourselves, some other b***er will try and do it for us. :nono: and I dread to think what that would lead to.
In the Scandinavian countries crossbows are banned, and you need a license in order to own or use one, which is quite ok IMO, as I don't think that just about anybody should be able to run around with these weapons. But then again, it is virtually impossible to get such a license (at least in Norway) because the crossbow is banned from use for hunting etc, and there are no organised competitive shooting of crossbows (due to the ban, as shooting the thing requires as much paperwork as getting a gun license), which is perhaps not as ok for those who are genuinely interested in the darn thing ( :?: only shot one a couple of times in South Africa, and made two downscaled copies of ancient models for a collector of archery equipment. I don't own one, and at present have no interest of owning one either)
I was on e-bay looking for archery equipment and like Rob I was astonished that they were allowing sellers to advertise crossbows as ideal for hunting. They were selling bolts with broadheads rather than target points.
I have no problem with crossbows and would hate to see them banned from sale - but perhaps there might be some ruling on the way they can be advertised - just like with knives where you'll find yourself in trouble if you advertise fighting knives or combat knives.
The sellers need to take responsibility for what they are doing. How many of these crossbows are being sold to target shooters or enthusiasts and how many to people who think that they're cool to carry a 300fps xbow loaded up with broadheads?
All it takes is someone to use one of these in a robbery or something and the press would be howling for a ban on all archery equipment.
George
Squidders
10-12-2004, 11:55
I can't see many people trying to use a 300lb crossbow in a robbery given the red face and hard pulling to reload... it's a fair point though.
I happen to have a high power crossbow and use it every once in a while to take pot shots at the target at the end of my back garden, it's fun.
What's everyone's take on using a crossbow or bow for hunting? is one ok and the other not? any explaination would clear some things up for me.
Cheers
Joe
tenbears10
10-12-2004, 12:04
Well done Rob :biggthump not only for the responsible attitude towards this but also getting ebay to do anything worthwhile is like getting blood out of a stone.
I have contacted them on several occasions about the number of blatant scams and illegal auctions but unless you highlight each one individually they do nothing. Some areas of the site are almost totally scam auctions.
I agree that ebay is no place to sell crossbows and you could include the majority of knives sold on ebay in that as well. Have you seen the amount of so called 'fantasy knives' for sale. I'm sure they are not legal and there is no real system to verify a buyers age in these auctions. It is this crap which leads to people demanding the banning of knives and crossbows altogether.
George IIRC broadhead arrows are illegal in the UK so the police should be taking an interest in those auctions but that would mean squeezing that stone again wouldn't it :?:
Sorry for the rant and topic deviation.
Bill
Crossbows have been used in crime related shootings in the past here in Scandinavia. Perhaps that was the reason for the banning in the first place ?
One or two years ago a biker was shot dead with a broadheadtipped crossbow bolt in Denmark (the ban was in place a long time before this incident), and I personally know some police officers claiming that they will rather be shot at with 9 mm auto pistols than a crossbow.
Some of you may wonder why, but tests done by both the army and police show that a bulletproof west (standard soft kevlar etc issue to police / army - not the big heavy wests with "ceramic" inserts etc issued to bombsquads) will stop a bullet fired from a high velocity 44 Mag revolver / 45 auto pistol, but not stop a broadheadtipped arrow from a bow or bolt from a crossbow (with a lot less velocity) ! The penetration is mainly due to needlefine point cutting on impact, compared to a "bowling ball round" piece of lead.
I've seen it meself :shock:
tenbears10
10-12-2004, 12:07
What's everyone's take on using a crossbow or bow for hunting? is one ok and the other not? any explaination would clear some things up for me.
Both are illegal in the UK Joe so no one should be advertising them for that purpose, I think. If they were legal and the people responsible then I don't see a problem using either.
Bill
.....What's everyone's take on using a crossbow or bow for hunting? is one ok and the other not? any explaination would clear some things up for me. Cheers Joe
A complete explanation will take too long time / space here, but in general a bow is better in theory. A crossbow is more than powerfull enough to hunt with (with sharp broadheads only, but that applies to a bow too !!), I've seen them shoot completely through game as large as zebra and blue wildebeest. But compared to a proper hunting bow they store less energy (even though they may be as powerfull as 300 lb as you say) due to the much shorter powerstroke of the bolt (arrow). Statistics from South Africa show a larger wounding percentace with crossbows than with ordinary hunting bows (both are still below the statistics for firearms though).
One main argument against hunting with the crossbow is the fact that it has to be carried cocked and ready (trying to cock the weapon when you are close to an animal is just the same as shouting "Hey here I am, please wait untill I'm ready". A bow is more easy to draw and shoot under such circumstances), a thing that is potentially dangerous IMO. Sitting still in a groundblind or something like that may be acceptable, but I personally do not like the thought of walking around with a cocked crossbow (I guided a crossbowhunter in Africa once, and was scared as he** when walking in front).
In real life a proper hunting crossbow like the Excalibur's will work as well as a proper hunting bow for hunting - where they are legal weapons for that purpose.
George IIRC broadhead arrows are illegal in the UK so the police should be taking an interest in those auctions but that would mean squeezing that stone again wouldn't it :?:
Bill I'm not sure that broadheads per se are illegal so selling them isn't an offence - context however of possessing a bladed weapon would be important for anyone who wanted to shoot them and certainly their only real purpose is for hunting which as everyone points out is illegal. Difficult to explain to a police officer what legal purpose you had them for if you were out shooting with them. Lots of people collect ancient arrowheads and arrows however so banning their sale would not be legitimate IMO
George
There are ways to reduce the risk of selling items on ebay to people under any legal (or self imposed) age. This is more down to how you accept payment and who you accept payment from.
As far as I know, broadheads are not illegal. People like quicks sell them, but only for export. I have brought them in to the country from abroad in the past.
As for legitimate use. You cant hunt, and if anyone wants to try and use them on one of my archery courses then you will soon find out what happens to people who try. :wink:
Re the bullet proof vest. A long time ago, a man turned up at the house of Rex Oakes (Saggitarius Bows) and asked him to shoot him. He explained about the vest that he had with him, and couldn't understand why Rex was understandably reluctant to do it. They hung the vest on the washing line and Rex put a arrow right through it.
According to Rex. The man looked a bit pale, and went on his way. :rolmao:
A mate of mine used to own a x-bow, (which I'm still waiting to be delivered to my door), and had a number of different heads that he'd got from the US on his numerous trips over there.
From what I can remember of what he told me, and he did a fair bit of research into it, the only heads that are LEGALLY useable over here are bullet points, fowling punts and fishing heads. Broadheads and fans (which are used for decapitating small prey such as rabbit - gross I know) are illegal for use. And the US game heads that basically feature two scalplel blades that spring out on entering the flesh and are designed to sever arteries are illegal to posses in the UK.
Broadheads can only be used for targetry and in medieval re-enactment work. The kids love them as they are damn lethal and make a real mesh of a pig carcass with a cuirass strapped onto it.
from British Blades
Hi Simon,
Thank you for your inquiry.
There is no law disallowing the use or making of broadheads in the UK other than those laws which deal with any object used in such a manner as to be judged to be an offensive weapon.
We have chosen not to sell into the UK as we dont want to encourage people to misuse bows for hunting.
Hope this is the information you need...
Regards
Tom Bishop
Quicks Archery
Found this in this thread on BB
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=811&page=3&pp=15
Its been gone over loads of times here - all hunting with bows or crossbows in the UK is illegal - doesn't matter what point or if it's a blunt or a broadhead or whatever.
Point as I see it is that we are all law abiding folk (I'm sure all of us here on BCUK anyway) trying to go about our hobbies, pastimes, whatever in a peacable law abiding fashion. We act responsibly and follow whatever codes of practise appropriate. Then along comes some daft so and so who gets the press all heated up because they bought some crossbow with broadheads off an internet auction site and then shoots someone. Press start baying for blood, public outcry, politicians jump on the bandwagon and suddenly my collection of arrows from all over the world is illegal.
Hasn't happened yet but easily could - so well done Rob for getting e-bay to listen.
George
Gerd makes an excellent point about the greater hazard from carrying a crossbock cocked. My field archery club rents land from Forest Enterprise and they as landlords set the condition that crossbows cannot be used on their land for exactly this reason.
No one I know in our club has any problem with this restriction at all, though we are not anti-crossbow. Only very safety conscious and wary of them for that reason.
On the positive side they do provide a way for disabled archers who could not pull the weigh of a normal bow to take part, and there is a class of crossbow that is used for extreme precision target shooting - these have many similarities with olympic style competition air rifles.
While there's no reason a UK seller should be barred from selling broadhead bolts FOR EXPORT ONLY I'm very pleased to hear ebay have been open to your suggestions on this. Far better a responsible sales policy than yet another indiscriminate government ban.
Well done. :super:
arctic hobo
11-12-2004, 21:03
In Finland where bowhunting is legal (looked into it for our expedtion) you're not allowed to hunt with a bow that can be held in a drawn position - ie a crossbow. http://www.saunalahti.fi/~sjml/index.html
Excellent! :biggthump
Not being able to use a bow that can be held in the drawn position? That must include compound bows too.
That'll make you stalk it :wink:
Great Pebble
12-12-2004, 05:13
The law.....is an ass.....
Mek!
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 11:37
Just a few bits from me....
I'm rather a fan of crossbows, however, I can't disagree that they can be very very bad things in the wrong hands.
It's hard to justify one over here in the UK as we aren't allowed to hunt with them but I have one and use it in my garden....ok it's only messing about with it but I'm not harming anyone and I enjoy it.
I'd use it to hunt with if I was allowed but I'm not so I don't.
I also have a compound bow for the same reason and again would hunt with it if I was allowed to.
Either way they are both as dangerous as each other....it just so happens that the crossbow looks the more horrid and evil of the two.....is that reason to ban them?
Heck if we're banning things on looks then I'd imagine I'll be getting banned soon!
Crossbows are easier to shoot better without training....is that the reason we don't like them?
Final point: somebody earlier in the thread mentioned that there was no legislation on crossbows and who can own them and who can't. Might be worth those of you who want to ban and legislate taking a look at the crossbow act first.....most of the age things are all there and ready to go!
I'm surprised that you're all so anti crossbows, yes they can be nasty and yes they don't look as "robin hoodsy" and romantic as normal bows but they (like knives, guns, cars, iron bars etc) are only as nasty as the person holding them.
I can see the point about "Yahoo's" out in the woods with deadly weapons but surely there's more than enough guns in the US so that a few crossbows won't make much difference and over here that's not an issue as we can't hunt with them anyway.
Cheers all..... :o):
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 21:02
I think that the reason many people are not happy with them is that any idiot can fire a crossbow, as he pulls it back, holds it, then releases it much like he could fire a gun. Whereas a longbow requires skill and strength to pull, hold, aim and fire accurately. In the hands of an average yahoo I'd imagine a crossbow would be much more deadly - in the hands of an expert a longbow would be far more deadly.
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 23:29
See now that's a very fair point Hobo and very true..... but the rest of the thread was a little biased....
:o):
o.k. you guys I've got three crossbows and have been practicing and hunting small game for several years. 1, crossbows are powerful, but at ranges 50yds. and under. after that power and accuracy fall dramatically. mine all have saftey's just like a rifle, never had accidental discharge yet. and let me tell you they require far more stalking skill than either guns or bows. If you want a clean good shot you have to get as close as possible, on small game I need to be within,[i.e. rabbits], 50ft. so the reality here is that the only problem with croobows is the human factor, not the tool. why they are illegal, same thing! better pay close attention to this because that can apply to anything and may one day, the legal system is like the medical system, they only treat the simtoms and not the problem, thats why they are illegal most places.
Hi Woodrat, I sympathise with the general attitude that it's not the object that is the cause of the problem, just the irresponsibility of the user but I'm not at all unhappy to see these restricted on ebay. This won't prevent an enthusiast buying whatever they want but may well slow down the kiddies. It's a better step than legislation.
My only other comment is that if you (as you imply) are willing to trust a safety catch, then I would politely decline to accompany you around the woods.
Cheers
A few questions from someone who knows nothing on the subject.
I dont own a crossbow, nor do i want one particularly.
However, a couple of things strike me about this thread. There are lots of folks talking about the irresposible use of crossbows, I'd like to know what is the scale of the problem? What eveidence is there to suggest that there is in fact a problem? (It appears to be largely annecdotal from what I've read so far.)
I ask this, because I oppose the tightening of any legislation, the removal of any liberty, when it's justified with hearsay, annecdote or paranoia. If there is sound reason for tightening up, good evidence to suggest there is an escalating problem, then fine - we need to do what needs to be done. But for goodness sake, dont just hop on the scaremonger bandwagon and start demanding tighter restrictions for problems that dont exist. We need much less of that, not more of it.
I make these points, because I cannot remember hearing any negative issues regarding crossbows in recent times. As I said, I have nothing to do with them and am poorly placed to comment really, but the lack of any negative publicity leads me to suspect that the numbers of crimes and/or accidents commited with them is very few indeed. Can someone better placed than I, give me some hard facts here - one way or the other?
Liberty aside, I speak as someone who enjoys field archery a great deal, and do as much as I can to promote it. I am the Secretary of a club, and give a lot of my time to it.
I have no problem with people who buy and use crossbows. I have shot in competitions with people shooting that style.
Ignorance and lack of training is the issue when it comes to bows and arrows. I dont like the fact that you can walk in to a fishing tackle shop and buy something where you may not get good advice. The amount of people that i have come across that have been sold a bow to go "hunting" with disturbs me. Dont get me wrong, I have no beef with hunting. The fact that people were selling crossbows as "toys" and "ideal for hunting" and for less than £10 just makes me shiver.
I think that we can agree that the type of bow shot in the olympics, and the "clinical" way in which that sport is set up is a completely different to field archery or simulated hunting (if that is the way that things are set up). I shoot a "hunting weight bow", that comes with it's own specific safety issues. My greatest fear is that if the archers do not police themselves, then someone else will.
Thankfully, I have not come across an example of people causing havoc with crossbows in recent years. But maybe that is because kids arent outside getting up to mischeif. I did hear of an archer being shot in the stomach last year by a crossbow archer. This was an accident, and they do happen. I know of more people who have been seriously injured or killed by bows, not by arrows.
At the end of the day, bows can be lethal, and so can archers (of whatever experience). I have nearly been shot myself, a number of times over the last 7 years - maybe i should stop upsetting people. I respect bows and arrows. The problem is with the person holding the bow.
Wish I could hunt seal from my greenland kajak with a crossbow made to withstand seawater and a harpoon sort of bolt.
Too much of them here in Northern Norway, of course they eat everything they can, and are full of parasites cuz of overpopulation which in its turn destroys the small amounts of fish the local fishermen/sportfishers catch cuz of parasite eggs :?:
don't get me wrong, i'm not saying I foolishly trust the saftey, but that it would take the same kind of situation that would discharge a rifle,[i.e. ahard knock or drop] for it to accidentaly shoot. I've just never had that problem. and I totally agree with you about ebay!!! lot of irresponsable people out there and we all suffer because of them, whats a mate to do??.
Hang in there.
Cheers mate. :biggthump
Alick