View Full Version : Expedition summer 2006
arctic hobo
07-12-2004, 17:18
Not sure if this is a good idea or no, but I thought I'd share my plans for summer 2006 with you lot, see if anyone is interested.
I'm planning to travel from near Tromsø in northern Norway to Tornio on the Gulf of Bothnia, about 400mi. To start with I'll follow Jan Baalrud's celebrated and fateful route (incredible story, map here (http://karlsoy.com/baalsrud/kart.htm) and highly recommended book here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1841952486/qid=1102439025/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-7785810-9113225)), like it is followed every year as a tribute, using folding canoes (right now I think Ally Canoes from Bergans (http://www.bergans.no/sider/start.htm)). Then a relatively short trek across the border to one of the many tributaries of the Lainioälven (http://www.lainio.com). This runs into the Torneälven, which meets the sea at Tornio. There are a fair few rapids but not many falls on the rivers, which makes them ideal canoeing material.
Most importantly for us bushcrafters, it's perfect for BC'ing. The river apparently holds more salmon than half of Russia (real stat), so no problems for food. We can have use of the enormous expanse of forest, with possibly animals to hunt as well. There is the odd town along the river so we could spend a few nights in bars as well :wink:
It should not take more than two weeks from when we hit the river, and no more than a week for the first part.
Please do post and ask questions if you're interested, or even if you aren't. I'm also completely open to any suggestions - what you see here is as far as I've planned.
I realise it's a long time away, but something like this takes planning. You lot seem a good bunch and up for meetups off the net, and since all my friends are cowering at the thought of more cold and hard work, I thought I'd see if anyone is interested.
Cheers,
Chris :wave:
Hi mate i may well be interested.
What time scale you looking at. How long are you planning to take to cover the distance. Whats the min max number of people you planning to have with you? Have you done any costings yet etc?
arctic hobo
07-12-2004, 19:28
Hi mate i may well be interested.
What time scale you looking at. How long are you planning to take to cover the distance. Whats the min max number of people you planning to have with you? Have you done any costings yet etc?
Good points. I'm thinking of roughly three weeks, as the river is about 300-350mi long, so two weeks is a decent time that allows a relatively relaxed pace or days off if necessary. The overland trip should certainly be no more than a week - technically it could be done in three days, but bad weather and fitness might get in the way!
I have not though much about costing. If you have all the equipment for the local climate (in summer it will not be bad), then all you need is money for canoes and a flight to Tromsø, and back from Tornio. Both are likely to be connecting and pricey. :roll:
As for people, I don't mind at all. As many as we like, though I expect to have too little rather than too much interest! :cry: The only real constraint is finding food while there, and sheer logistics of that many people - canoes getting lost/left behind, no space on flight :?:
I havent been to Tromso but have walked in Absiko national park nearby Sweden. what sort of canoe stand would be reuired as i have only kayaked. Any ideas to cost of a canoe. i know flights to Kiruna arent cheap.
sound fun, have a good time
arctic hobo
07-12-2004, 19:55
I havent been to Tromso but have walked in Absiko national park nearby Sweden. what sort of canoe stand would be reuired as i have only kayaked. Any ideas to cost of a canoe. i know flights to Kiruna arent cheap.
I'm thinking of the Bergans Ally canoes, which seem ideal but for the £900 price tag. www.bergans.no Two man canoes means you halve that price, but still... Hiring them seems a better idea. Now to find someone who does that.
Kayaking is harder than canoeing, and also is more about dealing with rapids, which means you're more prepared than someone who's only canoed. :-)
jamesdevine
08-12-2004, 08:57
No objection to an Irish man joining you. I'll bring some whiskey. :wave:
I am well up for the idea as I have planned to visit this part of the world in 2006 but not had a clue how to do it or where to go. So traveling to area with individuals with experience of the place would be great.
Not much canoeing experience but I have whole year to learn.
Do I need to beg.
James
arctic hobo
08-12-2004, 16:26
You're very welcome (I'm Irish meself, hail from Dun Laoghaire Co. Dublin :super: ). Your whiskey is even more welcome :o):
The canoeing shouldn't be too technical - after all it it becomes too hard we can portage around it. Maybe nearer the time we can arrange a canoeing course/meetup :-)
jamesdevine
08-12-2004, 16:43
Cool. :biggthump A Southsider and Northsider on the same trip it will be fun. A meet up next year some time would be must and I am planning at being at the Bushmoot in the summer.
I also imagine it will be easier for me to go from the UK with yourselves anyway.
So whats the next step.
James
arctic hobo
08-12-2004, 16:51
Next step? Get money! :cry:
When more people voice an interest, and I can finalise more details, I'll get a list of likelies, and we'll go from there :wave:
Norwegian Spruce i am very, very intersted. It sound absolutely perfect!
Im taking a good few years off to go travelling etc after this year so you oculd probably count me in. I have always wanted to do something like that, let me know.
I also have kayak experience! (well a bit anyway :wink: )
Jake
bambodoggy
08-12-2004, 17:32
I'd be very interested....my arctic skills are limited so I'm happy to give it a try in the summer first.
It's a long way ahead so I can't give a definate yes but money and wife allowing I'd be up for it.
I'm a BCU instructor Kayak and a Senior instructor Open Canoe so I can help train the guys on the flat and ease them through the white water if that helps?
Even if I don't manage to come on the trip I'm more than happy to do some canoe training with you before you go if you want it :-P
Food's going to have to be carried in or foraged unless we can find a Norwegen with a rifle and a hunting permit as bow hunting is not allowed (see my other questions on bow hunting on Bearskin Thread).
Shouldn't be a problem though!
It's a big old task to plan a trip like this......but Heck...well worth it!
sounds like a great trip. I'll be in a year in indursty during that time so don't know what I'd do about getting the time off. Maybe a company wont mind you going off for 3 weeks if your only a placement worker.
Do you think a veggi diet would be harder to keep up?
I'd be very interested....my arctic skills are limited so I'm happy to give it a try in the summer first.
It's a long way ahead so I can't give a definate yes but money and wife allowing I'd be up for it.
I'm a BCU instructor Kayak and a Senior instructor Open Canoe so I can help train the guys on the flat and ease them through the white water if that helps?
Even if I don't manage to come on the trip I'm more than happy to do some canoe training with you before you go if you want it :-P
Food's going to have to be carried in or foraged unless we can find a Norwegen with a rifle and a hunting permit as bow hunting is not allowed (see my other questions on bow hunting on Bearskin Thread).
Shouldn't be a problem though!
It's a big old task to plan a trip like this......but Heck...well worth it!
It would be great to have you along. You knowledge of the water would be invaluable. very kind offer to train us. I would like to take you up on that offer.
Hopefully a few more BCUK memembers will be up for the challenge. Especially as after the inital excitement there are always people that need to drop out.
Thinking about it...you can definatly (at this point) put me down. So it's a prety firm "yes" from me as i can't see anything that could stand in the way.
arctic hobo
08-12-2004, 18:59
Wow... a flurry of posts.
Great Elm, that's great to have a big yes and enthusiasm :-)
Phil, thanks for your kind offer - and I hope you can come along! The food as I mentioned could be from the river - apparently there is more salmon in this one river than half of Russia (true stat!). I hope to try for a shooting permit by then anyway (planning on moving to the land of nog in the not too distant future, whether before or after we go I don't know). We'll be in the salmon season. I don't know what the forests will be like as food is concerned as I've only been on tundra grassland that far north - who knows, maybe there will be food to be foraged :?: :-)
If the worst came to the worst we could theoretically stock up in the (very occasional) towns.
A big ol' task it will be to plan - but as you say, very well worth it!
Andy: I'm afraid I think that a vegetarian diet might be very hard to keep up! However you're quite welcome to come... maybe you can temporarily opt out of it :?:
Just go meat for a while!
I would like to go but it is not feasable so I will have to dream instead :roll:
I was wondering if the trip was anything to do with your signature Arctic Hobo :shock:
:rolmao: :wink:
arctic hobo
08-12-2004, 20:20
:rolmao: It's my signature because that's what I always seem to be saying to my friends... can't think why they're so unenthusiastic :?: :rolmao:
jamesdevine
09-12-2004, 09:13
Looks like a team is building up. Well my have has given the OK (save something huge happening in the mean time) I am definate. :pack: :-)
James
PS my mam says I can go as well. :biggthump
The Mrs and I are up for it, dependant on cost
do you have a date more definate than "summer" a month for example?
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 16:25
End of July to end of August looks like the most likely time period (salmon season & should hopefully avoid the worst of the spring/summer floods while remaining warm enough).
Good to have an OK from you Raz and a definite from you James :biggthump
Whats the temp like at that time?
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 19:11
Good question. I think we will find it surprisingly warm, and relatively free of rain as we shall mostly be far inland. Around Tromsø the weather will be warmer and wetter. Summer is short, and we'll have a full midnight sun, as we'll be north of the arctic circle the whole time. However I'd be surprised if we get too cold. From experience I'd recommend packing for a British winter but catering for a British summer too - it can get very chilly at night, as you can't escape the effects of being so far north.
That's just what I know - but then I have only spent one expedition north of the arctic circle in summer - maybe Abbe can help us out as he lives near where we are going :-)
When i was up that way in the summer it was t shirt a weather. I even went swimming in the lakes forgetting hold cold they remain.
I have spoken to Val and looks like i'm a firm favourite to be there. i will need to keep the costs within reasonable limits though. Hopefully no more than £2000 a head anymore than that and i will need to be there permanently, as Val will kick me out.
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 19:41
I second that hope! :shock:
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 19:43
All this talk of salmon, I forgot to ask: is anyone here a competent fisherman?
I have fished, but not the fancy stuff you need for salmon - or is there an easier way? :?:
What will we be paying for though...surely a flight to norway couldn't be £2000 :?:
If so, we could catch a boat and make an extra day each side to cater for it!
Jake Tromso isnt five minutes in the car from Oslo.
We need to buy or hire the canoes then theres bouyancy aids etc. Food and other personal kit. Last time i checked the flight to Kiruna was about £500 i expect it won't be much cheaper to Tromso. Thats just for starters nothing has yet been planned and costed. i think you will find £2000 will not be too far from the mark.
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 20:58
Well one bit of good news is that a flight from London - Oslo is £50 (BA) and Oslo - Tromsø is £25 (Braathens)...
But from Kemi (Tornio) - Helsinki - London it's £770 :cry: A lot a lot.
Buoyancy aids I'm making compulsory for the trip, a good one is no more than say £30. Your own kit I leave to you, but I expect you'll all need more things.
The canoes are about £900 each, I haven't yet looked into hiring but I guess you will not want to buy half a canoe! (we share two man canoes).
Prices go up and up... :roll:
I've a map of the expedition if anyone knows how I can post an image :?:
TheViking
09-12-2004, 21:03
Well one bit of good news is that a flight from London - Oslo is £50 (BA) and Oslo - Tromsø is £25 (Braathens)...
But from Kemi (Tornio) - Helsinki - London it's £770 :cry: A lot a lot.
Buoyancy aids I'm making compulsory for the trip, a good one is no more than say £30. Your own kit I leave to you, but I expect you'll all need more things.
The canoes are about £900 each, I haven't yet looked into hiring but I guess you will not want to buy half a canoe! (we share two man canoes).
Prices go up and up... :roll:
I've a map of the expedition if anyone knows how I can post an image :?:
www.imageshack.us
Easy. :wink:
£75 to tromso thats wicked could you pm a link i might take Val to view the Northern lights. Great place for Orca too.
arctic hobo
09-12-2004, 21:40
Here's that map, sorry it's so big:
http://img76.exs.cx/img76/7024/map4sy.jpg
Cheers for the map.
Looks like a lot of open water crossings around Tromso. are you planning to use open canoes for that?
A couple of weeks ago I saw a video taped from Danish Television (long time ago) with a story of some 6 or 8 danes who build a biiig canoe with space for everyone. It was build in two parts and assembled on site, when they paddled the length of Torneälven.
Getting fishing permits will be easy compared to possible hunting permits (hunting permits are usually easy to get, but there are special rules in Finnmark for foreigners, limiting their access to hunting permits) and possible export / import permits for firearms if you are going to do some hunting (Finland being the only country allowing bowhunting, and taking guns across the borders outside official border posts might not be a good idea...).
Small game season starts in september (a few species in late august). Seasons etc should be listed on this site http://www.naturforvaltning.no/ - there are English translations too.
You can download a brochure on the general hunting regulations in pdf format here: http://english.dirnat.no/archive/attachments/01/38/Jakti065.pdf
The brochure is in both Norwegian, English and German.
Renting a canoe may also be a problem as the route will take you across the border to another country... (not all outlets will allow that).
You sure have lots of planning to do, and if there is anything that I can help with then let me know, and I'll try to do my best.
I can recommend the Ally canoes a lot :biggthump I have used my 16,5' DR in both Norway, Denmark, Swaziland and South Africa. Pretty stiff prices, but worth the money (and you will never have storage problems :o): ). Best expedition canoe there is :biggthump
jamesdevine
10-12-2004, 09:55
The map puts things in prespective and it seems like a jolly little trip. Cost wise I was thinking in and around 2-3K myself but having to buy the canoes might make things a little dearer.
I have done some salomn fishing in the past and it wouldn't take much to brush up the skills again.
The local knownlodge is what we need and someone on the ground would be a lot of help in my opinion. :You_Rock_
Summer & winter kit I'll pack for Autnum then :rolmao: A couple of threads in the Kit section should answer does question.
James
Wayne, i guess your right!
Thinking about it £2000 for such a trip doesn't seem like all that much....
And it does look like a spectacular journey.
arctic hobo
10-12-2004, 16:44
Thanks for the comments :biggthump
Tvividr, that's a lot of help. Thanks a lot! :You_Rock_
I shall look into these things.
James, www.lainio.com has a lot about fishing - in fact there are many sites with info on salmon fishing in the area if that's a help. I don't know much about it to be honest :yikes: something to learn before we go.
Wayne, I was thinking of perhaps getting a lift (quick charter) out to the island you see at the very north, which is where the journey is supposed to begin. From there, we will have to hope for the best!
It should not be too bad, as in the real story, the trip was made in winter, and some was swimming, some in a small open boat. If it gets too bad, we will always be near a coast and one of the larger fjord crossings at least has a bridge we could use as a last resort.
I suggest we spend perhaps a couple of days in Tromsø - it is a lovely city (pop. only 56k) , and we can prepare and get to know each other and the area. :-)
jamesdevine
10-12-2004, 16:54
I can smell the Salmon cooking already.
One question can a non-BCUK member come along? Just in case anyone here is interested. Plus how big a group are you talking/thinking about?
James
arctic hobo
10-12-2004, 17:07
:chill: <<< us :o):
Sure, but whoever it is must bear in mind it'll be rather bushcrafty and no holiday :biggthump
As to numbers, I'm not sure - not anything crazy like 30, but there's no real limit but the food we can get and sheer logistics of getting people there and not losing them while there. Also, I don't expect that many to have both interest and money! :naughty:
arctic hobo
10-12-2004, 19:04
Just for interest here's a pic of Lyngen fjord... imagine paddling along here (which we will be)
http://www.lyngen.kommune.no/getfile.php/107855.369/kjosen_1.jpg
It seems to good to be true! I think a reletively small group will be much less of a struggle.
That picture is gonna make everyone want to go!
lol u dont need to use rods or anything just take a huge net :-p
i would love to go but a bit too young :cry:
arctic hobo
11-12-2004, 18:18
It seems to good to be true! I think a reletively small group will be much less of a struggle.
That picture is gonna make everyone want to go!
Oh, there are more... http://www.lyngen.kommune.no/index.php?cat=5596b :o):
:o): :o): :o): Im sold! :biggthump
Arctic Hobo put my name down!
I think I need to have a chat with you when i get back from borneo :biggthump
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 08:56
Sure :wave:
If you like I'll PM you my number
Funds allowing I'm definately interested. Just need to try and run past the other half a bit quickly now...
rightie hoo, just spoken to SWMBO and I'm "allowed" to go as long as shes invited as well, so if theres room for 2 more :D I can fish and I've some Kayaking experience. Tvivdr do you know if Gill Nets are allowed there?
Just done a quick search on STA Travel and a return flight from Kemi-Helsinki-Heathrow is £422, couldn't do a single fair but I'll try and find out.
Cool! How many is that now?
Looks like there is growing interest. It should be fun.
I will have completed my Wilderness first aid and Stuart is qualified so thats covered can anyone think of any skills that needs attending to apart from the canoeing?
comedian :-p
(cant spell )
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 14:01
I have extensive marine first aid as I am a part time sailing senior instructor. If Phil can come along, he can cover the canoe-genius post. I'm wondering if bringing a small kayak as an emergency/scouting type vehicle might be a good idea... trouble is it'd be a nightmare to transport for the first part.
Fishing is perhaps an important skill, and hunting we need to look into, as those will be our food sources!
The second half will be on the Sweden/Finland border, meaning that we could bowhunt under licence on one bank of the river. This is complicated, and if any of you are good with a bow (I'm awful), I'd be grateful if you'd look into it.
As for the first half, I believe that with licence we can hunt game with a .30 or so calibre rifle - I am not clear on the laws here and I will research them. However as Gerd says, we may be breaking the law and experience difficulties later because of taking a gun across the border outside border controls.
The fishing I leave to you fishermen, as I am afraid it is quite a mystery to me. :?: However there are many good websites with information: www.lainio.com is good.
I think that's all the skill we need! Excepting skinning, gutting, fire starting, etc etc... but we're all bushcrafters :biggthump :super:
comedian :-p
(cant spell )
Perfect spelling there willie!
AH...this sounds awesome...im not sure what i could bring to it in that context, but im sure i'll think of something!
Quick question are you guys wedded to the idea of bow hunting in Finland?
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 14:41
Comedians, musicians... they're good too. :-)
Hate to patronise but can I just remind everyone that this might be very arduous indeed. The first part might suffer terrible weather making our crossings difficult, and the walking miserable. It will be very hard walking as it is because we must carry the canoes as well as all our kit for a long way. The river trip itself will have many rapids, and some falls. From the canoeing I have done I know it is hard to tell between a fall and a weir or rapid, especially as you cannot see being so low to the water. Both are bad news - and one is very easily fatal. And there may be scarce food, and very poor weather to camp in.
The doom-prophecying over, I think it will be the trip of a lifetime :o): Back to business. Jake you asked about numbers. Well:
Myself, a small small chance of one of my friends, you (Jake), Wayne, Wayne's Mrs?, James Devine, hopefully Phil (Bambodoggy, happy birthday by the way), similarly unsure Raz and his Mrs, Stuart, Lithril and his Mrs, and maybe Andy. That's maximum 13, minimum 7. Odd numbers :shock: Who's up for a lonely canoe? :lol:
There's a chance we'll meet Abbe along the way too, I've spoken to him about it and he'd like to meet up for a night's camp, but he lives a fair way away from our river :sadwavey:
Thanks for that flight info Lithril - better than £700 but still a lot. Good to have you interested. I have found that a return ticket to Oslo (only £100) is compulsory with BA (no singles are allowed), and so it might be cheaper to go from Kemi to Oslo, using up the otherwise empty seats on the return. Or failing that a train to Oslo or to a Swedish airport then to Oslo.
Gill nets occured to me too - it'd be a lot easier than messing about with flies (I've just damned myself in the eyes of all fishermen I'm sure :naughty: :lol: ).
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 14:42
Quick question are you guys wedded to the idea of bow hunting in Finland?
What d'you mean?
Cheers AH. Jugglers?! :wink:
I understand the difficulty of the journey, and belive me, i won't take it as a walk in the park. But i'll have a year previous to train...:biggthump
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 14:52
Juggling is good :biggthump
Maybe if we hit a desperate situation then we can trade your silicone balls for reindeer meat from the Sami :rolmao:
No way! :yikes: What would i bounce with?
arctic hobo
12-12-2004, 15:10
Realised I'm first-naming everyone without introducing myself: I'm Chris :wave:
Jake, if you kicked up a fuss we'd trade you for meat, and then you'd be sentenced to a life of reindeer herding. Hardly the harshest sentence in the world! :rolmao:
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 11:50
Hey...Thanks Chris, birthday was great (my 30th), spent the whole weekend in Amsterdam with the Mrs.....was hoping to soften her up to see if I could go away for three weeks......the outcome..... I can't!
No matter how I put it to her she did an amazing job of showing every single type of sulking known to man!!!!!!! :yikes: and that was just an 18 month away mention of it.
I can now safely say that I am about the most jealous person in the world as I watch you lot talking and planning all the fun you're going to have!!!!
But....you don't get rid of me that fast :nono: Oh no.....I offered you training for the canoeing and that's still an open offer..... we can talk details nearer the time but just coz I can't go doesn't mean I won't help you guys and gals get down the river safely.
Also....might it be possible to meet you for say the last 10 days or so rather than the whole trip? I might be able to get her in doors to agree to let me out for that long at least.....actually that's not fair, she'd let me do anything I want.....i just have to live with the consequences!!!!
Sorry to let you all down so soon but better to know now than a week before we go!!! :o):
falling rain
13-12-2004, 13:25
Ref fishing for Salmon. Telescopic rod,(easy to transport) and small fixed spool reel with an assortment of spinners would be about all you need. In The Book I'm reading at the moment 'Running with Reindeer' - Roger Took. The Russian Saami use this set up for Salmon. I've never caught Salmon using this method, but Lots of Pike which are also of course edible, so you could use the spinners for both. Any predator species will go for spinners or plugs including Perch also, and Bass if you're near the Sea. I've caught all of these on plugs and spinners, but not the Salmon but I would imagine if the Sammi use spinners and plugs for Salmon then it must work.
you can putogether a good light fly set up which will not take up much room at all! if you get a 5/6 peice takedown rod!
falling rain
13-12-2004, 13:35
you can putogether a good light fly set up which will not take up much room at all! if you get a 5/6 peice takedown rod!
Spinning may be easier to learn for those who havn't fished before
you are probably right! but learning both techniques and adding them to you hunting/gathering arsenal can only increase your chances of gettin enough grub to keep you going on your expedition! :wave:
falling rain
13-12-2004, 13:58
Definately.... learning to fly fish would be a useful extra skill, but maybe spinning would cover more species and increase the likely hood of getting a meal. I've not heard of flies being taken by Pike or Perch as a reliable method for these species. (dosn't mean it's unheard of however) Fly fishing would be better for Salmon alone, but I would say spinning would let you target more species and is more practical and could be learnt in a few hours.
Just my opinion :wave:
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 14:32
Sounds to me (and bear in mind I'm not able to go now) that Falling Rain has a good point, while Tomtom is right that it's best to expand your knowledge to give yourself more chances, maybe the middle of a Norwegein tour where you're relaying on what you catch to keep you going isn't the best place to be learning new skills....maybe Tomtom could do a little tutorial for us all and especially for those who are going?
For me....if it's not illegal (I'm sure Gerd will know) then I'd be using a gill net strung out between the stern's of two boats and left out long enough just to catch what we need.....(damn, I'm not going...."what they need").
yup.. yup.. i would have suggest a net to. but setting on isnt that easy IMO.. i can never get the dam things packed away in such a way that they are usable the next time you come to use them.. :o):
and i am with Falling rain here really.. spinning is probably the best way to go.. i simply wanted to suggest an alturnative.. hell maybe there will be room for two little fold down rods in those canoes of theirs! im sure Ahobo who hes been there and done it before will know the best methods anyhow!
as mr nessmuk says.. of all the outdoor pesuits flyfishing is one of the most widely writen about.. you can pick up a manual on Evil-BAY for a few squid!
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 15:18
I've found Nets a dodle Tomtom.....dead easy to use once you get the hang of it.....do ya a deal, I'll show you how to use a net if you'll teach me how to fly fish? ? ? :o):
sounds like a deal to me!! :wink:
though i am not an expert by any strech of the imagination..
what size nets do you use.. the only types i have everused are big ones that we strung out at sea left over night and bought in, in the morning!
Yup I can fish ok and a light setup will not add much at all. If Gill nets are legal they'll defiantely be a bonus, other options to check into is eel nets and night lines. Back on the spinning front, wonder if it would work if a longish line with a lure was attached to the back of the canoe?? How many towns are there along the way to stock up on any supplies.
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 15:42
I've certainly used that method while paddling round the Ilse of White.....three of use went round it (admittedly in Kayaks but the same applies to canoes) and used drag lines behind to spin for makrel etc.....had some limited sucsess....
Not sure on the legals for nets in Norway.....I know gill nets are a no-no over here but not sure if they count as such if strung between two boats....
Tomtom...pm on it's way to ya Mate. :lol:
Back on the spinning front, wonder if it would work if a longish line with a lure was attached to the back of the canoe??
in salt water long lines of feather could work well for mackerel ect..!!
Chris, just cos you've said that i'll bring along my bean bags instead :nana: :rolmao:
I've caught a fish or two, probabably just a fish though...:wink:
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 16:51
Sorry to hear that Phil. As for joining us midway, I'd recommend you leave us midway rather than join us. That way you get some of both parts of the trip.
Thank you very much for your offer of training :You_Rock_
As for where to leave, Nedre Soppero is near ish the beginning of the river, and has good connections with the world (could get a bus or train to Kiruna perhaps?).
Thanks all for the info on fishing. I'm about to buy that book you suggest falling rain, so I'll have a look :-) I think spinning is better than fly fishing as there are many other species in the river too, and we just want all the food we can get, rather than being picky!
Gill nets did occur to me, and IMO they seem a good foolproof way of getting a large catch, which will be important. I'll see if I can find out whether they are legal.
I'll try to learn fly fishing too :roll: :lol:
Eel nets sound good to me, question is whether there are any eels there :?:
As regards towns, large towns along the way are Kilpisjärvi, Nedre Soppero, Antis, Pajala, Pello, Övertorneå & Ylitornio, then Tornio. There will naturally be other smaller ones but my map doesn't show them, and we can't necessarily rely on them for supplies.
multimap.com will show you a map of them :-)
Speaking of maps, there is complete 1:100,000 coverage of the area, and in places larger scale. When I get some money together I'll buy them... in other words never :cry: :lol:
I'm also thinking about doing one section of the journey. I don't know if it would be better if phil and I were there at the same time of one takes the place of the other at some point. I guess it depends on the numbers going.
If there is a way I can feedmyself for the trip I'll go. I wouldn't have a problem for a shorter time.
Andy come for the first part and be :wink: ill :wink: for the next...
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 20:15
Oi! Nobody gets ill on my trip... because if we end up having to eat you, I don't want the runs from having eaten a diseased carcass. And I mean that. :nono:
Andy, it'll be good to have you along. I suggest you join where Phil leaves or vice versa, as you can just switch places in the canoe. Otherwise you'll have to take a canoe with you when you both leave. Up to you though.
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 20:18
As far as I can tell, the Gill net is legal in Sweden. I have not been able to find anything confirming this. Does anyone know?
Okies we know fish is going to be on the menu and possibly some sort of game. What about foraging, does anyone know anything about the types of flora that'll we'll encounter that'll we'll be able to use. Also are we going to be able to find carbs or is the bulk of any food carried going to have to be a source of carbohydrates.
How much will we be carrying?
Chris...i meant "hi boss, im ill this week, yeah, terrible flu im afraid..." :wink:
Discussing this with one of the guys at work, and the first part is looking quite mountainous, have you any ideas of the sort of altitude to do as hardcore climbing with canoes (albeit foldup ones) will be very difficult, you've also got the problems of extra gear need for most people plus training???
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 22:09
Well the terrain is sub-arctic forest (taiga), not one I have to admit I have been in. I've done arctic and sub arctic grassland, summer and winter, but not forest.
All of the river part is taiga. I know there are bears, wolverines, lynxes, wolves, arctic foxes and moose too. However it's possible we will see none of these. We do have the advantage that the area is mostly uninhabited so there will be more wildlife.
I expect hare, ptarmigan and raven at the least. I don't know about the edibility of those however. There are apparently many birds and also small rodents. I'd be surprised if there was much vegetation to be foraged - but the rule as I know it is that all arctic vegetation is edible apart from some mushrooms. I've never seen a mushroom up there! The red berries which are everywhere are edible and not bad tasting.
If anyone has a book on the area or on food that covers the area, I'd love to hear from you.
Jake, I wish you hadn't brought that up! :shock: The weight for the walking will be a lot. It depends on what you're bringing, but you'll need at least:
Clothes - one or two sets is fine by me
Canoe - kinda heavy
Canoe bits eg oars and patches
Buoyancy aid - I'm making that compulsory
Basha & Sleeping bag
General bushcraft kit eg axes, knives, bowdrills if you like
Food, whether just emergency food or supplementary
I'm sure people will come up with more. The good news is that 80% of the time it'll be safe in a canoe and not weighing you down. The bad news is that as we start and finish at sea level, we have to climb the full height of the river we will be going downhill on...
arctic hobo
13-12-2004, 22:12
Lithril: Well as I said a while back it won't be easy. But the elevation will not be high and the climbing will not be any more than going up hills. Not any scrambling or mountaineering (although we are right by the Lyngen alps, if anyone else is a climber I'm hoping to try a few faces in the evenings :o): )
When you say training, what specifically do you mean? :?:
You've just answered the question, just looking at the map was wondering whether ropes etc would have been needed as the terrain looks quite mountainous.
bambodoggy
13-12-2004, 23:06
Guys, just to rub salt into my wounds....you now mention climbing!!! From what you've said it doesn't look like you'll be doing much in the way of climbing but rather just hill walking....however... bear in mind that we do not know this river very well, are there gorges? If so and you go through them then you either need to be able to climb out of them if the water is too wild or the waterfall is too high or....you'll need somebody to scout ahead (maybe a kayak with a walkie talkie) to check what you're going to find in the gourge....actually the same applies just to portage the canoes down the banks of some falls if you don't want to walk miles out of your way.....so maybe climbing knowledge might be useful....
Now, bearing in mind I can't make all the trip.....and it's still going to take a fair bit of lovelyness on my part towards my wife to come at all....:
I've offered canoe training as a BCU Senior Instructor (open canoe)....
It just so happens I am also an MLTB SPSA as well.... so if you want a bit of climbing training before you go I might as well offer that too....
Not saying you have to but a few basic tips might make a difference!
Anyway, offers there if you guys feel you want/need it.
Andy, now that I've read you're other thread and the bit on here about youor diet, your PM makes so much more sence to me....lol....I was a little lost for a while! :o):
I'm sure you'll be fine for the whole trip mate...on top of all the other kit you'll have to take I can't see being a veggie will make much of a difference.
I'm not great with arctic food but I remember Ray Mears saying that the Telemark chaps managed to live for the best part of a year on nothing but reindear moss....lol....good luck the BCUK Team!!!!! :o):
That does sound like a heck of a lot of gear you're going to be humping...is there anyway you could have the boats waiting for you when you get where your walking to....or would that spoil the authenticness of the trip? What did the original team do? did they carry it all?
You seem fairly well prepared for first aiders (yes, I'm a 4 day first aider too) but does anyone know what (if any) insurrance the team are going to need just in case anything does kick off? It's a right pain waiting for a chopper that isn't coming unless you have your Barcleycard ready!
Chris, glad you're not too phased if I only do some of the trip....I really hope I can!
I was thinking to do the second half for two reasons: firstly it means I'm with you guys for the river bit (nice head on) and secondly it means I miss out on carrying that sort of weight on foot (selfish head on)....I've carried silly weight while in the TA and it soon becomes a real bore!!! lol
Maybe I could meet you near Nedre Soppero and then come down the river with you.....or if you opt to have the boats go on ahead then I could meet you all there with the boats ready, the fresh rations bought and the kettle on..... :o): just an idea to kick about.
Right, prattelled on enough for this evening! night all....
Insurance wise you cant beat the BMC for dragging you back from the brink. They have years of experience of dealing with people smashed up in various wild places. Not too expensive either. Minimum each person should have is a dangerous activity type travel insurance.
i think we should have a couple of meet ups next year to get to know one another as a group. Possibly start with a canoeing session.
if you guyes do you bcu qualification they will insure you and your boat for very little ontop of your membership!
Edit: not certain if it is valied outside of britian though!
arctic hobo
14-12-2004, 16:50
The climbing is optional Phil: we go past the Lyngen alps in our canoes, which will take perhaps a day. So an evening spent climbing up from our camp at the foot will not be a wasted one :wink:
There are gorges. At least, I know of one large gorge mentioned on the website guide. Climbing might well be useful for getting out, but we will need a lot of kit and also everyone must be able to climb competently - and what about the boats and kit? Perhaps it might be better to portage around the larger gorges for safety. Judging from the terrain I am fairly sure we will be able to stay by the river as we walk.
I think a kayak with a walkie talkie is a very good idea. Thanks very much for the offer of training - I too think that it's a good idea, if only as a safety net.
Having the boats taken to Kilpisjärvi, where the original route ends and the river starts would be a good idea, but I don't know how possible it would be. Connections to the outside world are fairly limited up there!
Possibly I could go up before the rest of you and take a quick trip to the town to drop them off, then meet back you in Tromsø.
Given your experience it's probably best that you are with us for most of the river.
I think we'll make insurance for everyone compulsory. Meeting you midway with food and perhaps canoes sounds to me a brilliant idea. Save weight and also it's a midway point for people in general to come and go if they have an emergency or want to join halfway. I suggest that we get the canoes earlier though as Nedre Soppero is a fair way downriver, meaning more walking.
Wayne, meet ups are a good idea. See if we can get everyone to come, and go canoeing. Almost like a practice of the real thing.
Another thought I had was rubber boats. Although they are more prone to puncture and are less comfortable, would they be suitable?
The advantages I see are very great stability, high load carrying capacity, and low weight. However the nearest I have got to using one is a yacht tender with an outboard. Does anyone who has experience on them have any thoughts?
bambodoggy
14-12-2004, 17:18
I have no idea at all about rubber boats from personal experience but I'd say wherever you can go in an open canoe you can more than likely go in a rubber raft-style boat.
I'm told they are easy to handle and you can get three or four people in one so it might be a good idea. They also pack up as they deflate.....but (always a but) I believe they are rather heavy so might only be an option if you meet the boats at the river and don't carry them.
If climbing isn't useful then I can show you all basic Z-drags for pulling each other off rocks etc and if you need to pull a boat up the side of a gorge then it's just a case of climb/scramble up with the end of a rope, tie yourself on and then haul it up (maybe through a stitch plate for safety)....going down is the same in reverse!!! :o):
I'm more than happy to do a few canoeing days for those that are going....but I do only have one open boat!!!!
Wow, all this is beeing properly analysed, great stuff...
I do some climbing, but never outdoors. I got to around grade 6b and slightly better with bouldering. Bambodoggy, thanks for the training offer mate, very much appreciated...:biggthump
I have some reasonable climbing experience in summer and winter. Nothing too serious on the grade front as i am short and now fat. Looks like a serious training regime is needed for the trip. Back to the point i am happy to bring my climbing gear if the group things it will help. I quite liked the idea of rubber raft style boats as well. Not so romantic as canoes but may be more practical.
Chris any idea of the distance we will be walking before the river section?
I am assuming mobile phone coverage will be zero so what method of communication with the outside world will we have should the worst occur?
rafts may be more flexible if somebody get a minor injury. I've lost track of how many will be coming
lol as bushcrafters u should make ur own canoes :-p
arctic hobo
14-12-2004, 20:08
I am assuming mobile phone coverage will be zero so what method of communication with the outside world will we have should the worst occur?
It will almost certainly be zero, yes. Which means only one other option: satellite phones. The only network type that covers the area costs £1000 for a pay as you go handset with a two hour talk time battery. I'm in two minds about it. In one way, you might argue we'd be terribly irresponsible to not take one. In another way, they offer very little for a very high price, and the practicalities of people getting to us in the middle of absolutely nowhere would mean there is no point. Your thoughts please.
As to rubber boats, they may well be cheaper too. Though I did not know they would be heavy. I have looked further and found that it would not be difficult for me (or whoever) to take the boats to Kilpisjärvi, by land rover or whatever. However what I completely forgot, stupidly, was that we need the boats for the first part. Which means unless we detour to Skibotn, and also persuade the hire company to be kind enough to drive there and pick up their boats, we will have to carry them to Råstajavri.
This leaves only a relatively short distance to walk with them.
As regards distances, it's 25 miles across Ringvassøya, 37 miles by canoe to Lyngen, 52 miles to Kilpisjärvi then it's 18 miles from Kilpisjärvi to Råstajavri (a lake, the source of Lainioälven).
When we hit the river, it's 59 miles to Övre Soppero, 32 miles from there to Lainio, the town on www.lainio.com. There are a number of smaller towns, and then a confluence with Torneälven, 34 miles. There is no town there.
A true multitude of small towns later, we hit the Sweden-Finland border, and another river. From there, 31 miles to Pello, the first biggish town since a while. Then 32 more to Overtorneå, a big town. Just 42 more to Tornio and the sea.
I'll get my map and put the names on as I guess it's quite confusing!
arctic hobo
14-12-2004, 20:37
http://img93.exs.cx/img93/8461/map6ce.jpg
bambodoggy
14-12-2004, 20:41
lol as bushcrafters u should make ur own canoes :-p
Do you know I actually had the same thought myself....only for a split second as it's totally impracticle to make boats/corricles etc and then take them down unknown (to us anyway) white water.....pity coz that really would have been bushcrafti and cool :o):
Chris, you may find lighter rubber raft boats but I seem to think they are heavy and have wooden bottoms to them....still, maybe you can get lighter ones...I'm sure somebody on here will be a rafting expert...or at least have done it a few times....I'm certainly no expert so don't take my word for it that they are heavy.
I would personally say to forget the sat-phone, they are soooooo much money and they still don't always work (read - when you need them most). I'd say a good quality VHF radio might be worthwhile, lots of flares/smoke...a good first aid kit, detailed route plans left with poeple you trust and definate IA Drills and Emergency routes and plans....
If we'd been planning this trip 10 years ago nobody would even have thought of sat-phones so I don't think it's irrisponcible not to take one.....rather it's a bit of an extravagance to take one.
I'm presumming some of the guys will have GPS's....Chris, you're more than welcome to take mine even if you just use it as I do as a back up once a day, it's my old army one so very robust and hard to knacker (hope my old qm isn't a member here!!!! :o): ) It's got lat/long or OS grid ref ability and I'm fairly sure you can program other mapping systems onto it.
I seriously think you all need to get out and train a bit (me included if I am able to come) as walking with the sort of bulk/weight you'll have is as I'm sure most of you know, hard work.
Doesn't sound like you guys need any climbinb training as a few of you seem to know what you're doing and as you say Chris, it'll only be fun climbing and not part of the route.... I'll still go through z-drags and canoe related climbing with you if you like.
Blimey....here I am rattling on again!!!! best let somebody else chat for a bit now! :-P
I didn't consider a Sat phone. I think they are simply too expensive to be worth carrying and as with all gadgets they can let you down. Saying that a hand held VHF might be good. i think a flew flares is a good idea.
Chris thanks for the milages helps put the task into prespective. I would have thought we could arrange with the outfitter to pick up the canoes at the start for a smallish fee. Its not everyday they get to hire out 5 or 6 boats to one party.
Bambodoggy would you suggest we take helmets for the white water sections? I can see the kit list going through the roof. Good job there is a year to plan.
bambodoggy
14-12-2004, 21:08
I hate to say it but yes, helmets are a must for the white bits....no worries the rest of the time but a rock on the bonce can kill ya! Also any insurrance you have may well be invalidated if you don't take proper precausions....which will, no doubt include helmets!
Training is going to have to start early next year for me I think, I'm not too worried about the distance but if we're carrying the canoe/raft we're going to be adding about another 10kg onto pack weights, with oars, helmets etc we could be looking at pack weights in excess of 30kg (around 60lb I think).
Okies can anyone recommend any good books on the areas (as in what to expect) and also maps to look at?
can we hire the safety kit with the canoes?
We haven't considerd a vital vital part of kit yet. We all need to get new knives :naughty:
could canoes manage white water ??? or are u getting a boat for that ?
Moonraker
14-12-2004, 23:42
I keep reading this thread and getting very excited then I keep reading back to the original thread and seeing it says 2006 NOT 2005 :?:
That is a long way off....
OK if I may pitch in regardless, if you want to save a big chunk of cash, from what I have seen so far, I have a suggestion.
For the return trip you could be flying back to the UK for around £78!
From Kemi catch the VR Finnish rail train to Tampere (Helsinki Intercity 152 via Oulu, 1 change) and then Ryanair flight from to London Stansted for around £78 all in :shock: :-) ( 58.50 EURO rail ticket and 55 EURO flight ticket) 6.30 hours on the train and quick flight home. Also catch Ryanair one way flight from London Stansted to Oslo (Torp) for the first leg from £12.99 inc tax!. If you get your flights booked early it could be cheaper :wink:
Check out Kemi travel here:
http://www.kemi.fi/english/traffic.htm
Remember though, the limited baggage allowance of Ryanair cheap flights of 15 kg checked in baggage.
Any excess over 15kg will be chargeable at the rate of £4.50/ˆ7 (or local currency equivalent) per kilo. For health and safety reasons Ryanair will not accept any individual item exceeding 32 kilos.
You must identify your checked baggage
Remember that ALL flights have a baggage allowance including BA :-)
Also to put it into perspective you can drive by road on the E8 from Tromso to Kemi in around 8 hours :-) I have some friends who live in Tromso and will try to get some details for you on hiring canoes etc.
GL guys 'n girls.
jamesdevine
15-12-2004, 11:01
I am away for 4 days and there are 4 pages of posts to read. It seems a lot of ideas have been put in and lot off hard work to do over the next 18 months. I feel for as soon as the group cost for the trip has been agreed I can start looking at other costs.
I am going to check out training costs here in the canoeing but I am sure if we are hiring the canoes we can hire the bouncy aids as well for an outfitter as well helmets etc. The more expirenced in these matters might not agree I don't known.
I would be good to have limit on the personal kit and list done up for instance we all don't need to carry a GB do we and the cost of communal kit made part of the budget.
I am looking forward to this so long as it stays with my budget.
James
bambodoggy
15-12-2004, 13:26
Definately a good Idea to Pool kit James......not so sure about your assumption that it has to be a GB axe! :naughty:
It does make sence to hire the bouyancy aids/helmets/paddles etc from whomever the canoes/rafts are hired from.
Willie - "can canoes manage white water"......you betcha they can!!!! I've never quite managed it myself but I had a mate at college who could roll his open boat just as easily as we all could a kayak! If the water is above grade 3 though you would need airbags and knee straps or you might end up swimming down the river!
The more I think about it the more I think blow up rafts could be the way forward....ok it's not as romantic but it's more practicle and I'd be happier leading a novice (no offence meant to those with canoeing skill...I'm talking generally here) team through grade 3 - 4 - 5 (maybe...we just don't know) water if they were safely tucked up in rafts.... having said that I think after a little training and with a big dose of bottle most people could "get down" most grade 3 water if not enjoy it. The problems come with the extra weight in the boats and the fact that we'd be very exposed if anything went wrong.
I don't mind a bit of a drama but it's not so fun when you're in a gorge and you can't get out and there's no "999" to phone for help and the nearest hospital is a very long way away.
Come on BCUK....we must have somebody who knows a bit more than me about rubber rafting? ? ? ?
Moonraker, can you ask your mates if they have river guides (maps not people) over there that we can get our hands on before we go?
Moonraker
15-12-2004, 15:04
Moonraker, can you ask your mates if they have river guides (maps not people) over there that we can get our hands on before we go?
I will ask them. May be a little while as I need to find an updated email address as the one I have is old. Will post when I hear anything.
bambodoggy
15-12-2004, 15:20
That's cool Matey....we've got over 18 months!!! lol :o):
Thanks....it'd be nice to know roughly what we're heading in to!
I get excited entirely too easily about things like this, already started looking around for maps etc.
K the only possible problem I can see with Rafts is possible weight issues, havent looked yet to see how much they weigh, but at least with the canoes you can spread the weight over two people. Aside from that Rafts theoretically are a lot easier to deal with if things start getting a bit hairy.
What sort of buoyancy aids are we looking at, self inflating, in which case we need to look at extra cartridges etc for inflating them after a few times in, or perm inflated/foam - packing will be a problem???
One thing we'll need to check on with the airline is that we'll defiantely be able to put all the kit in without them getting too excited seeing axes, knives etc when they scan the luggage.
Does anyone fancy meeting up for a weekend beginning of the new year, say feb, for a night camping, have a few beers and get to know each other. If so where do we want to go, I'm happy to travel but it probably needs to be reasonably central.
bambodoggy
15-12-2004, 16:54
I'd say to go for the permanant ones or what you save with bulk you'll make up with gas cartridges....also if you go in and are being bashed about it's best not to worry about pulling toggles. you can get quite thin/light ones nowadays.... and although bulky they weight next to nothing.
There's a meet up at the end of Jan in Ashdown....a fair few of us will be there (well, I will be anyway!!! lol) why don't you come along to that?
arctic hobo
15-12-2004, 17:57
Glad you agree about the satellite phone :-) As you say, 10 years ago no one would have even considered it. I have to say that that's the approach I'm trying to give to this trip... it seems ridiculous how much namby pambying goes on - as bushcrafters I imagine you feel the same :?:
Thanks a lot for the GPS offer Phil... I was thinking that one would be a good idea.
Thanks Moonraker for the flight info. I have reservations about low cost airlines but it's up to the group not up to me. Also if you've been to Torp, you'll know it is miles and miles from absolutely anywhere, and there are no connecting flights. However £78 from Helsinki seems too good to miss - is this including tax?
James, you're right, we can share kit and hire kit. However be careful you don't get ripped off. A buoyancy aid is only £30, and the hire ones are much poorer (if they get hit they lose buoyancy, so old ones are useless). It's up to you. The rest is a good idea to hire though... I expect it will end up costing a quite a bit if we buy it.
As regards maps, I can get 1:100,000 coverage of the whole area, and larger scale still in some area. If anyone wants to buy them himself, have a look at www.sgu.se. I haven't found a UK distributor.
Lithril, buoyancy aids are foam, and will help you float. Lifejackets are full of air, and will ensure your head stays above water, but are very hard to swim in and need to be blown up. It's a tricky decision as if you whack your head you can't pull the string on your lifejacket, but if you're in a buoyancy aid you may end up face down. You die either way. However you are only really likely to go unconscious in rapids, which are always shallow. Lifejackets have the advantage of being less restrictive, but once you inflate them that's it, they stay that way. I'm visualising bushcraft knives + inflated lifejackets = oh dear.
I was thinking of rubber rafts as multi person - about 4 in each? Not sure if that's the same as what you lot are thinking of :?:
The main trouble is that they are much less comfortable having no seat you must sit awkwardly and use a stupid paddle rather than a kayak paddle. And if we're carrying pre-inflated boats or very heavy gas cartridges then it'll be worse than a light small folding canoe. I am still thinking that canoes are better.
I have taken an axe and knife to Norway several times in the hold luggage and never had problems, although spot checks by customs might be awkward. Perhaps someone who knows the law could advise us here.
I'm afraid I'm not up for any meetups until after next August, as I will be very very busy until then. After that I'd love to meet you guys, have some beers and camp :-)
i would suggest the people that are defo goin should get to gether and go for like a day white water rafting and canoeing to ensure people know wot to do ,but just a suggestion :?:
I'm almost definately going to be at the Ashdown meetup so I'll see you there. So what sort of clothings recommended for the environment and expedition? obviously warm and durable are key points but packability and weight will be too.
I was thinking of rubber rafts as multi person - about 4 in each? Not sure if that's the same as what you lot are thinking of :?:
The main trouble is that they are much less comfortable having no seat you must sit awkwardly and use a stupid paddle rather than a kayak paddle. And if we're carrying pre-inflated boats or very heavy gas cartridges then it'll be worse than a light small folding canoe. I am still thinking that canoes are better.
I was more thinking that the foldup canoes I think can be split into frame and coverings, hence splitting the weight, the rafts have to go as a whole, so one person is going to get the whole weight. Another bonus to the canoes is that they can be a lot quicker when needed.
arctic hobo
15-12-2004, 19:35
Yes, good points. And as to clothing, it should not be too cold - I think the important thing will be just not to take too many clothes. I never take a change of clothes for a weekend out, but many people I know would take at least that. There's no need to change your clothes all the time, and it saves a huge amount of weight.
I must admit my weekend kit is small now compared to what it was (ask Ed or Stuart) I'm the same if its for a couple of days or so then I rarely take a change. Just trying to think whether we'll need to take a 'dry' set then what to take in the way of waterproofs etc.
how far are we going to be carrying this large amount of weight?
arctic hobo
15-12-2004, 19:58
Andy - take a look at the map below.
As for waterproofs, I don't think that anything more than a poncho is necessary for when it rains. If we fall in, only a full on drysuit will keep us dry, which is £150-£300, and impractical. If it's shorts weather, they will best - quick drying and not restrictive when wet.
And quite irrelevantly, we share a birthday Lithril! :biggthump
I must admit I'm quite partial to split trousers/shorts (zipoffs), depends on what the temperatures are likely to be though, I'll have a nose around at some point. For the moment I'm trying to find a source of detailed maps like our OS ones.
Sweet, never looked at your profile before.
Rightie www.stanfords.co.uk sell detailed topographical maps of most of the world, just need to find the right ones now :-P
arctic hobo
15-12-2004, 21:07
Yes, I looked at Stanfords. They have all the Norwegian maps and one of the Swedish ones, but not the rest.
The fold up canoes are good and less bulky than rafts. However they require more skill to use especially when loaded with kit going down a grade 3 rapid. i think as a group we need to try out each method and come to an agreement as to whats the most useful. There is the national watersports place at Nottingham. Lithril Woodmill in Southampton are offering whitewater rafting trails and canoeing stuff.
What does everybody think?
If you want I'll look into the watersports stuff in nottingham. It may be handy me living here. I fancy doing more of this sort of thing anyway and this is a great insentive
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 10:41
A couple of goes at the concrete white water at Holme Pierpoint (the national watersports centre) in Nottingham would be a very good idea....just make sure you've all had your jabs....to be fair it was 10 years ago since I went last but when there on my college course half of our students ended up ill and one in hospital!!!! She had Wiel's and was quite ill with it....three days in hospital.....so make sure you keep those cuts and stractes covered! :yikes:
As has been said, Rafts are heavier, more awkward, slower and not as romantic but they are very stable, safer for white water and can be foot pumped (no need to carry gas at all).
Canoe's look and feel the part (we want to enjoy this trip), are faster and lighter and can be split between members to carry (they are also used with single blade paddles....no kayak paddles except for kayaks!) but...they aren't as stable, they take time to learn to paddle, can sink/fload when up turned if they don't have air bags in them and there isn't as much room in them (can't see this being a problem).
I really would forget lifejackets, they are not designed or meant for canoeing whereas bouyancy aids are....as I said you can get them so small and thin that you'd hardly know you were wearing one.
You will need a waterproof/windproof shell layer, it's up to the group to decide whether waterproofs are compulsery for the walking part but I don't think we can get round not having one to paddle in. I don't think any of us need to go to the expence of buying a dry cag (top half of a dry suit) as they are useless for anything other than paddling but it's very much worth having a gortex or even a thin pertex shell top....if you go in and it's cold you'll feel the wind very badly....even if you don't go in you will get splashed/soaked going down the white water and then the wind will chill you.... I stop short of demanding you wear a windproof top as it's not my place to order anyone to do anything but I'd say anyone not having one is very irrisponcible and quite unfair on the group who are going to have to look after you when you go down with hyperthermia....I've seen mild hyperthermia on a warm summers day in the UK just from being wet and out on a windy lake...it's a very very real danger!
Personaly I'll be in shorts but then I do almost year round anyway....even ice climb in shorts! But I will have a pair of lightweights with me. One change of cloths has got to be a must for a river trip even if it's sealed away and never used. Rather than taking heaps of other clothes I just take a small tube of bio-degradable washing goo and if my smalls need washing then I do it and hang them on trees or my canoe to dry....one or two tube the size of a finger would do the whole group for the three weeks.
As an adendum to my rant about windproofs above I'll be wearing my buffalo mountain shirt...it's great for walking in but ideal to paddle in as it's light, non restrictive, windproof and warm/insulating when wet.....hard to beat I think.....having said that a woolley jumper and a pertex shell would be pretty much as good.
Hope that's helpful.... :o):
jamesdevine
16-12-2004, 10:55
Excellent advice there I think all will agree. I was planning on getting a good windproof any and was actually looking at a Buffalo shirt only last week. It's now on the to get list.
James
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 13:01
Good for you James, I can't say enough good things about them... I've had them for over 15 years now and am only on my second as some scally nicked my last one while I was teaching.
The one and only flaw in them is they are very suseptable to little holes caused by campfire sparks.....it's worth slipping a smock or something over them to keep them tip top by the fireside. :o):
Are you talking about the buffalo jacket single layer system? Have looked at them several times but not actually tried them yet. For a basic windproof smock I've got one by Montane, very very effective and folds up small enough to fit in your pocket.
Wayne, woodmill is just down the road from me and I've done a couple of courses there a few years back, I'll contact them later today if I get time.
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 13:34
Nope, that's not exactly what I'm talking about....I'm talking about the DP layer Mountain shirt they do.
They do Jackets with Pertex6 and Trousers and hood and alsorts.
I have the original "Mountain shirt" and that's what I'm judging them on.....mine's black (which is hard to find) but they also do Green, Blue and Purple....my old one that was nicked was green.
Buffalo site is:
http://www.buffalosystems.co.uk/dpmain.htm
Piccy os the mountain shirt (in blue) is here:
http://moo.servicesports.co.uk/service/item/581
I've honestly not found anything to beat them..... One of the comments on there website (bear in mind it's advertising) is that the wicking is so good that the best way to dry them is by wearing them!!!!!
jamesdevine
16-12-2004, 13:49
A little bit of topic but what about footware. Will my Brashers be suitable or will I need something different. I don't want to carry anything more then a spare pair of sandals and if possible avoid that was well. So one boot or shoe to do the lot.
What's our thoughts.
James
At the moment I'm sticking with my Meindle Burmas but I'll see how they last over the next year, they've lasted well so far and are definatley comfortable so don't think I'll be changing them unless they show signs of falling apart.
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 14:11
It's not so relavant to me as if I can come it'll only be for half the trip.... :cry2:
If I was doing the rest I'd be going for a good walking boots (no point saying which as we all have our fav's).
Sandles for canoeing (I'd say Teva's are the best at staying on your feet while swimming) and maybe a very thin/light pair of wetboots (wet suit boots)...I have a pair that go so flat and small I can fit them in a smock pocket...
jamesdevine
16-12-2004, 14:28
Thats what I thought thanks. So sandals and my boots should be enough. I will check out the wet suit boots as well in case I have the cash.
:biggthump
James
Fergot about the sandles, need to get another pair as I managed total my current pair, but there really is nothing like taking off your boots and putting sandles on after a days walking.
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 15:28
Couldn't agree more....I used to be a big fan of "Reef" sandles but I find them no good for swimming as they slip off your toe.... I now wear Teva's and they are FAB!!!! I don't like the ones by other makes that are more like trainers with little bits cut out....Teva's are proper basic sandles!
Wettie boots of that type/quality are dead cheap....think I paid about £15 for mine at a canoe show years ago.... They are so much nicer than sandles if it's a bit nippy or even just windy although there's no issues wearing sandles if that's all ya got! :o):
This link has cheapish booties (try the sport boot or slipper thing looks ok) or just very cheap wetsuit socks...then wear your sandles over them!
http://www.surf-wax.co.uk/acatalog/Wetsuit_Boots.html
i would suggest a pair of aquashoes :biggthump
http://www.windsurfing-chichester.co.uk/clubsite/shop/aquashoes.php
bambodoggy
16-12-2004, 16:51
Even better and cheaper....nice one Willie! :wave:
bambodoggy
17-12-2004, 16:02
On the canoe/raft issue I wondered if something liek this might be any use....
It does say only easy white water so that may not be good and it doesn't look like there's very much room for kit.....
Oh and it's on Evil-bay!!!!!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=36123&item=7117568936&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V
arctic hobo
17-12-2004, 17:15
Aquashoes are a great idea - small, light and unrestrictive. I use them when teaching in summer. Wetsuit boots are good, but a bit over the top for just canoeing. For the walking, obviously decent walking boots are a must.
Sandals are great for the camp, and a great relief from boots, but I have found them pretty useless for walking in rivers. They tend to slip around on your feet and take a long time to dry.
Excellent advice there on clothes Phil :biggthump
Inflatable canoes?? New one on me! I'd be a little concerned about their durability, but we need all the ideas we can get I think!
bambodoggy
17-12-2004, 17:29
I have to say the ones I found today and put a link to below don't look up to the job but I do know you can get more durable ones that are meant for expeditions.....(if I'm honest I only know from watching an Alaskan Expedition program on the "Adventure One" channel on TV)....lol
But....they are out there somewhere!!! :wink:
There not cheap even on ebay :cry:
Guys.. i would leave inflatables well alone.. they are alright for middle of summer on a resovir or something like that.. but not much good for anything serious and you aint going to get your kit in them!
arctic hobo
18-12-2004, 10:13
Looking at Andy's thread on veggi food while we're away, I wondered: is anyone any good at cooking? I have to say I'm rubbish, I have a rather small repertoire of dishes, or just a kind of messy improvisation. And I almost never cook fish :shock:
I'm not a bad cook, at least I do all the cooking here and no ones been ill yet. Any ideas on what we're going to be able to forage? Fish is fairly easy to prepare and cook although it can get a bit monotonous if you've nothing else to accompany it.
would a samon kettle be handy for cooking? Coming from a large family (six kids) we tend to have rather large pots.
We could make bread using a pressure cooker if we want to get fancy.
if your taking a salmon kettle and a pressure cooker i can now understand why you havent got room for your food :o):
arctic hobo
18-12-2004, 18:57
Argh! me too :shock:
Trouble is, we will be sorely limited in what we can take. Remember we're walking a long way, and a huge weight is far from fun. Beyond a certain weight you just can't walk at all. Remember also, that we must fit it into the canoes.
One of the main reasons I asked you lot, is that through bushcraft we can travel light and improvise. In fact that's how I got into bushcraft.
However it's up to you! I'd strongly advise you to get all your kit together, weigh it, and think carefully about how far you could go with it.
I've forgotton how many people are going on this trip. One big cooking pot would be lighter then more smaller ones. I'm concerned abou the weight though
Paganwolf
18-12-2004, 19:24
SKY chanel 148 Best treks treveling thru norweigian lapland, dog sled, ski and snowmobile!!!!!!!!!! :biggthump itson now started at 7pm finishes at 8
arctic hobo
18-12-2004, 19:44
fantastic PW, has anyone taped this? I would love to see it, but I don't have Sky. :cry:
arctic hobo
18-12-2004, 19:45
I've forgotton how many people are going on this trip. One big cooking pot would be lighter then more smaller ones. I'm concerned abou the weight though
You're right... but I was thinking more like elimiating pots... :wink:
Plus if we take one pot, it will take a long time to heat up if it's huge, but big fish can easily be cut up for small pots :-)
I am still concerned about the weight of carrying the canoes over rough terrian.
how many here have actually carried a lightly loaded canoe any distance its absolutely no fun?
I think we need to research more carefully how to get the kit to the river head.
As too food we need to be thinking around 3-4000 calories per day. Carbs will be the main problem.
When will be the first gathering of likely candidates for the trip?
TheViking
19-12-2004, 12:23
About canoes and carrying them. You can get small, folding carts to fold out and put the canoe on. The weight is no more than 5 kg for one cart and they take up almost no space. Just a tip.
I have a good quality fold up trolley for my sea kayaks. I still wouldn't enjoy transporting them 30miles or so over rough terrain. I'm not suggesting its impossible but the practicalities need to be resolved at an early stage. then the training needs to begin.
A 3-4 week journey down a remote river that none of us know with an inexperienced crew. Its not the same as a weekend paddle down the local loch.
I get the feel that there is a lot of romanticism going on and no enough appreication of the seriousness of the task at hand and the potential pitfalls involved in a group of strangers turning up to walk and the run a river for 4 weeks with little idea about food resupply and water conditions.
I know its early days but we need to get serious if this journey is going to get off the drawing board and turned in a successful and fun trip.
arctic hobo
19-12-2004, 15:15
Re: trolleys. I think Viking means handcarts, used a lot by people on expeditions needing to carry a lot of weight. A bit like the ones at the bottom of this page: http://www.arcangeloni.com/laos2002/gord/06.shtml and many others. I have thought a lot about them, and I'm thinking they might be a good idea.
Don't forget, we aren't carrying the canoes that far. Weight is between 39 and 47 lb, but remember that's split between two people.
Wayne, you are quite right about the romanticism :-x However as we get nearer the time I'm sure people will become more serious.
I was thinking this would be a lot of hard work. There is a lot of planning and training to do.
where there's a will there's a way
TheViking
19-12-2004, 15:36
Re: trolleys. I think Viking means handcarts, used a lot by people on expeditions needing to carry a lot of weight. A bit like the ones at the bottom of this page: http://www.arcangeloni.com/laos2002/gord/06.shtml and many others. I have thought a lot about them, and I'm thinking they might be a good idea.
Yeah something like this (http://grt.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p459044reg.jpg) :wink: :biggthump We used them a lot in Sweden when we had to carry the canoes. They're handy and they have other uses too, for example when building bivouac with the canoe and a tarp. :wink:
how much do they cost to buy.
I have good connections with a bike shop that may be able to sort out bits if we need them making
I'm already starting to prepare a mental list of what we're going to be needing to take and how to eliminate on unecessary kit. Looking at the Map you put up AB we're going to be carrying any kit up to 80 miles. Thats about 130km. Now someone with little training can carry a 30lb back at about 3km/h. Now we're talking about carrying 60lb, AB said that we've got about a week to cover that distance but there will be some canoeing in the mean time - pulling a figure out of the air say 2 days worth. Thats upto 130km in 5 days = 26km a day = 8.6h walking each day, it can be done but thats going to take some serious training and the lighter the loads we can get the easier its going to be. Don't forget on top of that we've got catch/gather food. AB let me know if any of thats wrong.
Wayne are you going to the Ashdown Forest meetup??
arctic hobo
19-12-2004, 21:26
Assuming I'm AB... :?:
26km a day is, I think, a reasonable expectation. Myself I will (and do) walk up to 50km a day, but then hiking is a consuming passion for me - you people aren't hikers you're bushcrafters.
8.6h a day is also a reasonable expectation. It's only for five days broken up by canoeing, not several weeks end to end. Don't forget it stays light all night if we need to keep going, though of course that doesn't mean we won't be tired. And as you say, we must gather or hunt for food. This means that the days we walk will be the most tiring, but they are unavoidable.
You're absolutely right, we need to carry as little kit as possible. As I said before, that's where us bushcrafters have a big advantage - the equipment some people carry is ridiculous (boxes of cereal, folding chairs, I once even saw a portaloo on a handcart!). Personally the less food we can take the better - I know people are quite concerned about taking carbohydrates etc etc, but the effect of weight on walking is far bigger than anyone ever expects. Try it and see - carry a pack weighing 5 stones for a mile, take it off and walk another. The difference is quite unbelievable.
Viking, that's exactly what I meant :biggthump
I'm not sure about buying them or hiring them or what - but I can tell you I don't want to have to lump them downriver on a kayak. :shock:
Sorry I wasn't sure if you'd told us your actual name so I just but AB in at that point. We've (Sam and I) walked upto 30km before in a day with packweights up 40lb, just never quite as heavy as this, but then thats what 18 months of training is going to be about :-D If we go for the Canoes, have you any idea how small they fold up, as in how we're going to be carrying them??
bambodoggy
20-12-2004, 11:33
Yeah something like this (http://grt.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/p459044reg.jpg) :wink: :biggthump We used them a lot in Sweden when we had to carry the canoes. They're handy and they have other uses too, for example when building bivouac with the canoe and a tarp. :wink:
Fantastic Andy...I'd been looking for these to suggest but couldn't find any on the web.... as well as the above uses they make wood collecting for fires easier....
All good points from everyone....although it's meant to be fun it's going to be very hard work....50km per day with 60lb packs is not for the untrained....those who are going need to think about ther training very carefully if they are to complete this and maintain a smile :lol: Personally I hadn't realised the distance on foot was so much....quite glad my wife will only let me do the wet bit now! :rolmao: Done that sort of distance and weight before but I was a little younger and lot fitter at the time!!!
Lets not scare anyone off but please be aware of the task in hand :-P
None of us has a clue on canoe weight until we settle on what we are using! Those lighter weight blow ups are looking more likely for the walking team....or as I suggested earlier...and Chris has to have the final say on this as it's his bash...maybe you pick up the boats at the first water bit and only carry them as little as possible...
Chris...wasn't this a re-enactment of an old trip? If so do you know what the other team did about weight food etc?
As far as I can tell we're going to be walking up to 30km a day not 50km (Chris said he walks up to 50km a day normally). I must admit I like the idea of the blow up rafts, only problem I can fore see with them is that we can't spread the load over 2 or more people (could get messy with patch kits :-D )
For training purposes I'm seriously considering getting an orblieb dry bag and filling it with water as long as it doesn't unbalance you too much when walking.
bambodoggy
20-12-2004, 12:02
Sorry, I mis-read it....still 30km a day still isn't a walk in the park!
Water is good for training...1 litre of water = 1Kg of weight :o):
jamesdevine
20-12-2004, 12:51
I have to ask as I am the curious sort. What is going to make up the 60lb we are talking about carrying? Is this included our share of the canoe or are we just talking personal kit?
I ask because I have not had a need to carry 60lb or over since I was in the FCA (Irish TA) and that included weapon and rounds(I have done many multiday/week long trips and never needed anything more then a 50ltr pack when not in winter). If someone could PM or mail a list of the Personal kit that would make up this weight I would be grateful also what type of pack are we going to be carring I was assuming with canoes it won't be bergens?
A billy each should be a part of the kit list so many uses it's a survival most have.
Thanks in advance.
James
Kit lists havent been discussed yet but I was trying to come up with some ball part figures, to give an idea of what I need to work towards. The 60lb was (hopefully) near the maximum weight that we'll have to carry and that will include the canoe/raft, paddles, buoyancy aid, plus the usual kit.
bambodoggy
20-12-2004, 12:59
I was "guestermating" on the weight and was including boats/paddles/helmets/flares/rescue lines etc.
Just to do the walk without the boating stuff would be much much lighter :o): hence I keep hinting to leave the boats to the last possible place you can pick them up.
I actually was thinking bergans....what else would we use? I've never carried a fold up canoe further than from a car to a river down a footpath so don't know the best way to carry them!
I actually was thinking bergans....what else would we use? I've never carried a fold up canoe further than from a car to a river down a footpath so don't know the best way to carry them!
I've never actually seen one yet let alone carried it so I've no idea how to look at carrying them, if its attached to you pack and you work on the principle that heavy items need to be near the top and close to you back then I'm stumped on that one.
bambodoggy
20-12-2004, 13:07
I'm working on the theory that it's just like strapping a battery from a patrol radio on top of your bergan (and hopefully not as heavy)! ! !
If anyone could enlighten us both then I'm sure Lithril and I would be grateful! lol :lol:
jamesdevine
20-12-2004, 13:17
I thought that you where including the canoe etc. just had to ask. What about Duluth (http://duluthpack.com/store/product_detail.asp?SelectedCat egory=d&SubCategoryId=d1&Product=Duluth%20Packs) type pack. Or am I just being romantic.
Any the specs on the canoe or what ever craft we use will I suppose determine the kit. A in expierenced canoiest (and a kitaholic I just have to ask).
I would sway more toward bambodoggy's idea of doing the trek with out the canoe it might safe a light time as well for other activities such as climbing and exploration.
The max time off for me will be 4 weeks with the longs part of the journey to still to come I would like to enjoy it.
Just my thoughts
James
arctic hobo
20-12-2004, 17:05
Right then.
I'm Chris, just so everyone knows :-)
I can't link directly, but on www.bergans.no - the guys who make the canoe - there is a picture of a pack frame designed to carry the entire canoe intact. However I don't think it's too practical for any distance.
However, all you might want to know about the canoes is I think to be found in this PDF: http://www.bergans.no/pdf/ally_monteringsanvisning.pdf
I don't regularly walk 50km a day! At least not with a big pack on :lol:
Canoe weight as I said earlier will be between 39 and 48 lb, depending on the size - but of course it depends even more on whether we use canoes!
Phil you're quite right, part 1 is a re enactment of Jan Baalsrud's journey. Trouble is, we're hoping to fare a little better than him: his included gangrene and 14 days starving at the top of a snowbound mountain! The latter part he was carried by friendly Norwegians and then Sami.
Apparently every year there is a memorial trek following his route... but I haven't been able to find out anything about it.
Water is indeed good for training! And I am told that you can get special belts with super heavy weights on them that you can wear as normal and they will train you up for being used to a great weight... but I don't know. Perhaps a diving belt might work? :?:
James, four weeks should be more than enough. I expect the river to take no more than two weeks, depending of course on the current - using the figures from lainio.com.
The trouble with not trekking with canoes is that during the first part we will be in and out of canoes a fair bit - and then we will have to a) detour to a road b) persuade somebody to pick them up, c) somehow get them from there to Kilpisjärvi, where we will still have to take them 18mi.
This might be better in terms of how the uphill bits are distributed - however without a map I just cannot say.
On the mapping front, I have good news. I have a good accurate simulation of the area on PC, and with it I can make a video showing our exact route in 3D.
If anyone's interested then please say - I don't know how I'd distribute the file to you people though :?:
As regards kit, I think we should discuss this at our first meetup - we need to compile a huge list that has everything we might ever need, and then strike off the items one by one, making sure that we know how we will do without.
I have found this a very successful method. :-)
bambodoggy
20-12-2004, 17:16
Chris, when you say you'll be in and out of boats for a while on the trekking bit can you expand on that at all....will you be going down stream or just crossing rivers?
I only ask this because, as I'm sure you know, there are other ways to cross rivers....even bigish rivers.
I can never get the link to the canoes to do anything other than show me the first page with somebody on a ridgeline!!!!!
What size is the 3D file that shows the route mate?
Cool...got the PDF file open....nice looking boats! If one man can pack these then you'll have to use a buddy system as that man's kit will have to be carried by his partner (for man read: man or woman).
wups...hadn't realised the other guy's trip was a nightmare!!!! Is there anything on that Sami site I sent you the other day or anywhere you can mail them and ask them about the yearly re-enactment?
arctic hobo
20-12-2004, 17:37
The first part is fjords - we walk 2mi, paddle, walk 29mi, paddle (two days), walk 18mi, paddle, then walk to Kilpisjärvi. Fjords as I'm sure you know are deep inlets of the sea, and definitely need boats to cross!
Also, that is assuming we can get a boat out to our starting point - we might need to paddle to there.
That bergans.no site should have a menu at the top... I don't know why you aren't seeing it on your PC :?:
The video (I haven't made it yet) will be large - possibly between 70MB and 300MB.
I think the re enactment is done by Norwegians... I will do all I can to find out about it - after all we may be able to hire a guide or get some vital route info.
I'm definately interested in the map, I'm also on broadband so if need be I can set up and ftp on here for people to download from?? You'll just need to send me the file by CD or similar.
Those canoes look great, I've still no idea on how they're carried with other gear, looking at that it'll take up the space of one rucksack.
I've done some Kayaking before but never in the sea but I've been told its quite different. Also what are we likely to expect with weather and sea conditions up there, would the canoes be suitable for those crossings?
Nice to see we are uping the tempo on the planning front. :wave:
i was getting worried people might think this was a walk in the park. i had a feeling the first guy wouldn't have had an easy time of it. First remember he would have started out as a soldier and thus fitter that us, generally. OK me. The the motivation of getting shot helps push you forward.
Our motivation is to have an adventurous jolly.
I think i first group decision should be the method of transport. I am with Bambodoggy. I wold like to trek with the canoes as little as possible. carrying 4 weeks worth of personal kits and suppiles is going to be hard. Fitness and group disipline in going to be stretched. Over loaded people tend to get knee and ankle problems. I wouldn't want anyones trip ended at the start from a twisted ankle.
Next we need to carry dry bags and all the rest of the wet kit on fairly long stretches of hiking. Our packs have a fixed volume and will soon be filled with dry bags paddles axes helmets flares. billy first aid kit etc.
Glad we have decided Chris has the role of expedition leader as well. a trip of this nature of 10+ people cannot be a democracy.
Has anyone handles the canoes before. Is there a UK suppiler. Would be good to try them out first hand. Most retailers will let you try out a canoe kayak etc before you buy.
arctic hobo
27-12-2004, 18:34
Trouble with minimising trekking with canoes is that it's very difficult to do. Cost, (great) difficulty in organisation and us having to go far out of our way may well mean it's quite impractical. Don't forget that most of the walking for the first part has to include boats, and from there it's only 52 + 18mi carrying them that we can consider ditching them for - and to avoid a big detour we'll need them again at the 52mi point. To my mind, 26mi in two days is reasonable, as we can follow a road for about half of it if we need to keep speed up (hard on your feet though). Then a quick canoe trip, then 18mi the next day, a camp on the lake shore, and we start down the river the next day.
As regards carbohydrates, I notice Ray Mears says you can make flour of a sort with pine bark ground down... there should certainly be no shortage of pine trees! With a lot of time on the boats in the day, we can quite feasibly grind bark to make rudimentary bread. :biggthump
And there's pine needle tea as well :super:
I think that we need to cut down on supplies as much as is humanly possible. There is no point on the journey where we are further than two days from a town, where help and food can be sourced - in emergencies maybe a small party could visit. I carry 24 hours of emergency rations always, but I hope I am not too rash in suggesting we need carry no more than that. Although rations are a weight that disappears as we go on, we'll not notice the weight in the later parts as it'll be carried in canoes - when it's heaviest is when we'll be climbing steep hills in the first part.
Your own thoughts on food would be appreciated :-)
We do definitely need to get our hands on one of the canoes as soon as we can, and have a meetup with it there. I will try to find UK hire of one :wave:
I'm glad we have decided on I'm leader, not because it's me but because there must be a leader - as they say, the worst decision is no decision. I will of course always bow to people with more expertise than myself - eg Phil with canoes (I'm only a two star kayaker myself :cry: ), but from experience of socialist democratic style expeditions they just don't work :nono: Hope I'm not coming across too arrogant (a nasty trait of mine :cry: )
Anyway, a meetup in August I think might be a good idea - I am very busy until then, and it will give us enough time to get hold of canoes, extra info etc etc.
Chris :wave:
arctic hobo
27-12-2004, 18:36
Oh and as regards the 3D map, I can have it finished by mid January, and I could post it to you all on CD... unless someone knows anywhere I can upload a large video file?
A couple of weeks ago I saw a video taped from Danish Television (long time ago) with a story of some 6 or 8 danes who build a biiig canoe with space for everyone. It was build in two parts and assembled on site, when they paddled the length of Torneälven..........
If you want me to, then I can try to convert the above video to digital and burn it on a cd (can't do dvd) and post it to you Chris (Arctic Hobo), and then you can distribute it to your fellow expedition members together with the 3D map ?
Chris PM me your postal address, if you are interested that is ?
I'm quite busy at the moment with a translation job (it's coming tomtom :o): ....within one week from now), and completing a large knifeorder, so it might take a couple of weeks.
The video is in danish, but you do not need to understand the language in order to see what the river and surrounding environment is like. I think it is about 45 min, but I can try to squeze it in on a 700 Mb CD.
Hopefully my software and cables are working :shock: :roll: :lol:
arctic hobo
27-12-2004, 23:18
Gerd, PM on it's way :biggthump
Something just occured to me: is this expo big enough to consider asking for sponsorship? We could maybe advertise it as "using only primitive methods" etc, and it is in a wilderness area far from civilisation. I doubt it, but if we were lucky, it might save us some money!
I have also thought about the possiblity of sponsorship etc. I think it might be possible to contact the major canoeing magazines and so if its possible to get an article about the trip published.
Its hard to get cash out of companies but some kit might be possible.
Getting kit on the cheap is Stuarts department. I am happy to do some leg work just not sure where to start. I know your busy Chris until August. However are you going to make the Bcuk meet ups before then. They might be an ideal time for the group members to do some planning. See what tasks can be dished out etc.
Okies I've been to the local Canoeing/Kayaking center (woodmill Wayne) and they have hoards of kit including blow up kayaks and rafts, they've said to go down when ever I like and they'll hook em out to get an idea of the weight etc. They also had a canoe trolley as shown above, definatley a possibility, they pack down to virtually nothing so space won't be an issue. I've got a contact of some people there that have done expeditions with canoes so I'm going to email them to find out if they had to portage or carry them and get more information if they did.
Asking for sponsorships may be a possible route, but I think that you should concentrate on companies etc in the UK. If you are looking for specific Scandinavian made equipment, then try the UK distributor first and get them to propose something to the manufactor of the goodies.
From previous experience I would say that this expedition is not "high profiled" enough with regard to what is to be done and the people involved etc - at least for the Scandi companies. There is nothing in it that will make the big manufactures go really :yikes: "WOW, we need our name in there!" Going that (canoeing)route may not be an every day occurence for scandi outdoorsmen and women, but there is nothing very special compared to the usual type of outdoorlife being done by a lot of Scandinavians.
I have been sponsored a couple of times with equipment (never any monies) either for free or by being able to buy the stuff cheaper than retail prices, but it has been hard work to get there. Sometimes even harder than what it actually was worth.
An easier route than asking for direct sponsorships, might be getting discounts from local outdoor shops - especially if you buy stuff together instead of one by one. Bring a shopping list and ask several shops for a total price before buying at the cheapest place (with the best after market service :roll: ).
Scandinavian manufactures, magazines etc get questions like this all the time. I know one Norwegian outdoor equipment manufacturer that gets about 1200 such questions every year, and they have stopped even answering the letters, emails etc as doing that takes too much manpower capacity away from doing what's more important for the company.
Unless you can prove previous published stories and articles on expeditions magazines are very reluctant to pay for anything up front. However, they might be interested in both pics and the full story after the expedition has been completed.
Before you contact anyone for sponsorships you should have done as much planning and other preparations as possible. Then make a well written presentation listing up goals to be achieved, members of the expedition (including experience and what have been done to achieve competence for participating in the expedition etc), how you plan to do things, emergency procedures etc. You may also list benefits for the asked company by sponsoring your expedition, and offer them full access to pics from the trip and full use of them in their marketing (that is after all what they are looking for). Do not say that you know this guy so and so who got sponsored by so and so, and you have this plan to do so and so, so could you please get a sponsorship too....
You might get some weird answers and demands from some (I've been asked to pay the same price for equipment as what a retail shop would do, and then still had to sign a contract demanding among other things that I wrote a 100% positive rapport subject to censorship on the use of the equipment, to be used for marketing. I flatly refused, and managed to get 35 % off the retail price at a local shop instead !), and you might even be very very lucky and actually get a sponsorship :shock:
The above is just some quick thoughts based on my experience with trying to get sponsorships. It is only meant to show you that getting sponsorships might not be all that easy, as there will be very many people wanting the same thing. Base your plans on having to pay full price for everything, and then having the benefit of a pleasant surprice if and when you might be lucky enough to get either very cheap prices or even a full sponsorship. Good luck :biggthump
I've just got a good book, Advanced Backpacking written by Chris Townsend and its damn good. The whole book is about long distance hiking, preparation, kit, mental attitude etc, its got some good ideas that can be implemented here, also for Andy there is a whole section on foods to take... and Chris is a vegetarian!
Hi there,
I've been away and have only just read about the expedition. It sounds great, and if there is a place count me in; i'm free all through summer 2006.
On the Sat. phone issue; i believe they can be hired for expeditions, which would obviously be much cheaper than buying one.
Would it be possible to organise an informal meet up of possible team members? It sounds like everyone has the necessary experience (and enthusiasm!)
Will
http://www.satphone.co.uk/rental.shtml
phones are £325 per month, and calls cost £2 per minute
I thought about sponsorship. I was wondering just how much kit most people would need to buy though. I may well have to get a load more but I'm not sure how much others would need
arctic hobo
28-12-2004, 16:45
Gerd, that's all fantastic advice, thanks :You_Rock_
I'll certainly get everything quite sorted before applying etc... it is only a though after all, if we are not sponsored it won't be much of a surprise.
Do any of you know any reporters? :naughty: :biggthump
Matt, if you could bring that book with you in Jan, I'd love to have a look through :biggthump
Also, is it possible that you could ask those canoeing folks what they know about Ally canoes? I have not been able to find anything about them at all in the UK. I am in Norway in the summer, perhaps I will have to look then :roll:
BrutonW, great to have you interested. There are places - I have decided to limit them to 20, as beyond this it will be quite impossible to organise. At the moment we stand at 14 as far as I know, but I appreciate people will be dropping out and hopefully joining too.
Thanks for the info on the sat phones, but I am unsure as to how useful we'll find them... your thoughts please.
Andy, I am not sure why you think we'll not need much kit... all the canoes and associated clutter will be quite expensive! Plus if there's any way we can reduce travel costs etc, it all helps. I am thinking it will be a very expensive trip.
You people thought about what I said about food earlier? I know sponsorship is exciting but that's a long way off and food needs to be discussed.
As regards us all meeting up, what I'd like is for us to meet up as an expedition group. I am free for 1-15 August, but preferably we should meet up much sooner. I can only spare one weekend before then. :cry:
As regards a place to meet:
I live in E Devon, Jake's in Cardiff, Wayne's Sussex, James is Co. Dublin (could you make it James?), Phil is Surrey, Raz is Cornwall, Matt is S'hampton (good luck against Liverpool :biggthump ) and Andy is Sheffield. I don't know where Stuart is... is he back in the country yet? :?: I think that's everyone but BrutonW - do you have a name and location? :lol:
From that it looks like the south is the best, as we're all southerners but James and Andy. I suggest Dartmoor, but that's because it's only 30mi away
:lol: Ideas please.
I suggest we just meetup for a serious discussion before we get into all the training etc as there is plenty more to say and sort out, which is easier done face to face than over a forum :biggthump
Chris :wave:
arctic hobo
29-12-2004, 20:58
If any of you read Norwegian, you may be interested in this: http://www.friluftsliv.no/article.php?sid=190&mode=thread&order=0
It's quite similar to our own expedition.
TheViking
29-12-2004, 21:13
If any of you read Norwegian, you may be interested in this: http://www.friluftsliv.no/article.php?sid=190&mode=thread&order=0
It's quite similar to our own expedition.
I don't know exactly if they are where you're gonna paddle, but these (http://digital-info.no/lars/turer/rallbilder/78.jpg) are called "fosser" in swedish and they're great fun. They make it go a lot faster, but sometimes you're stuck on the stones. :wink: Happy canoeing..... :-P :o): :twisted: (how many did you say were going? :rolmao: )
arctic hobo
29-12-2004, 21:23
Yes, I read that bit too :-) It'll be fun! In a kind of dangerous way... :shock: :rolmao:
Our river is much larger (longer and wider), and also calmer. Further north as well.
I thought "foss" was just "fall" or "waterfall". In English we call it a waterfall if it falls, and rapids if it's just steep white water. :wave: We shall have both :shock:
And please don't remind me of the nightmares I've been having of coaxing ten boats down a section of tough white water :cry: :wink:
How many people do we have hoping to go?
Do we have enough to cover expected losses?
(either people that have to pull out before the start or losses during the trip depending on your outlook of life)
arctic hobo
29-12-2004, 21:56
14 hopefuls I think. As to covering losses, not sure what you mean. If you mean if you pull out at a late stage and you've already invested money, then it's tough luck I'm afraid. If you mean will we have to pay air fares home and hospital fees if we get hurt, then no, you'll have insurance.
14 hopefuls I think. As to covering losses, not sure what you mean.
I meant do we have enough people to keep the boats going after we loss the odd person to the rapids and the float away to their gave in the river. Or in the event that no food is obtained we have to eat the weaker members of the team.
arctic hobo
29-12-2004, 22:09
I've often wondered what human flesh tastes like... not in a twisted way but a curious way. I guess I'll never find out :?: Oh dear, now I think nobody will come on my expedition :yikes: :cry:
Nobody will be eaten, and nobody (hopefully) will die. As I've said before we can certainly survive, as we are always within 2 days of a town. And we can always eat tummy fudge etc if we have to :yikes: :rolmao:
I am quite certain that we will not have survival problems. If we do lose a man, we will have a problem as we will be using two man canoes. I guess one of the more skilled members could take control of the canoe on his own as we can't have three men to a canoe. Alternatively, if there is an affiliated person (a girlfriend, wife, brother, whatever) who is with injured/dead person, then they can leave together.
How about meeting up at Widdecombe again. See the dartmoor meet up thread. nice campsite allows fires etc. Ok its a trek for most of us but at least its a weekend. I have some fairly important dates that i cant free up. So i would need some notice so we can all try and arrange a date that suits. no easy task me thinks.
arctic hobo
30-12-2004, 10:36
Good idea. I'm thinking of february, shall we say 11th over 12th? I can only get saturdays off work, so friday over to saturday is best.
Obviously these are only provisional dates, if people need to suggest others that's great.
i cannot make that weekend i am away on a course.
arctic hobo
30-12-2004, 20:52
19-20?
That should be fine. Need to check that the widdecombe campsite is open in Feb.
We're going to have a run down and look in a few weeks time so I'll let you know, we should be able to make that as well.
Couldn't say whether or not i can make that...but i will be at the Ashdown one so im guessing i'll be able to tell you then...:biggthump
Roving Rich
05-01-2005, 14:32
Phew, thats the first expedition over reading the 14 pages of you guys rambling !
Anyway I'd like to come too :-)
I am trainee Canoeing Instructor (Coach level 2 open canoe) so I can also offer some basic canoeing instruction. It would also help me, as I need to log as any coaching hours as possible. Whats more I have my own canoe, that I built myself, in true bushcraft style. Just 6 coats of varnish to go.
It Occurs to me that if there are quite a few going, it maywell be worth sourcing canoes here, and driving them along with a support vehicle ? to Norway. I think a budget of £28000 is a little excessive for such an expedition.
With regards to canoes, these will be the heaviest piece of kit to be carried, so choosing wisely would be prudent. I certainly don't relish the idea of carrying one for a number of miles ! and think you would be wise to half the distance estimate based on weight. They are seriously cumbersome out of the water. If there is access to a road for distance portages, then a trolley is probably by far the best bet. It is easier to carry a canoe on your own than in a pair.
Rucksack wise, I use a drybag with rucksack harnesses attached as standard, that can certainly carry all my bushcraft kit. Aswell as keeping it dry incase of a swim.
I am meeting up with my Canoe Guru this evening, He has paddled expeditions all over the world, is level 5 instructor and into his bushcraft and see what he can suggest (I think some arm twisting might take place :naughty: ) He also has boats available for hire, but they are exceedingly heavy.
a couple of questions -
What is the longest portage - how many miles walk with a canoe !
What is the toughest/ highest portage ?
Canoeing wise you can load all the "duffel" you like and it doesn't become an issue until you have to physically carry it.
Cheers
Rich
arctic hobo
05-01-2005, 16:37
The canoes are designed to be carried easily, and can have a rucksack style harness to make it easier and they are light too. Don't know if you looked at the PDF I linked about halfway through.. contains a fair bit of info. But yes naturally trolleys will be easier.
The longest portage is 59 miles, which should be easily done in four days, especially as half can be on a road. It's mostly all flat as well.
The toughest climb is above Revdal - climbing up to the level of the plateau, about 3000ft (1000m) of slopes, not scrambling but steep hillwalking. This will be the hardest part of the expedition, but we can't leave out the canoes as we'll need them to get to the climb and there's no place to leave them at the bottom for a third party to collect.
It'll be great to have you along Rich :biggthump especially with all those canoeing qualifications :-)
just a thought. What do we do if we end up with an odd number of people?
Do we just hope for an even number of odd people?
arctic hobo
05-01-2005, 17:13
They can swim along behind :wink:
You have a good point actually. Say 13 hopefuls it's hard to have to turn a man away just because we can't find a partner. I'd thought of having a small kayak for scouting or rescue (an experienced man in a kayak can be very much more maneuverable etc than two less experienced in a canoe).
Perhaps we'll have to sort it out when we make the final decision.
One more point in response to Rich's post: We cannot source the canoes in the UK as far as I can tell unless the supplier imports them for us. If anyone has good contacts in the canoeing world, it would be extremely helpful if they could ask if any suppliers of Bergans Ally Canoes from Norway. :biggthump
The trouble with carry a canoe on your back that I still can't figure an alternative is where to put your belongings. I've had a look at the trolleys and they're defiantely a possibility depending on the terrain, lots of undergrowth or deep snow and they'd be next to useless.
The trouble with carry a canoe on your back that I still can't figure an alternative is where to put your belongings. I've had a look at the trolleys and they're defiantely a possibility depending on the terrain, lots of undergrowth or deep snow and they'd be next to useless.
Don't know what you would do with the undergrowth side of life mate, but in deep snow I would load my kit into the canoe and use it as a pulk and then take turns in breaking trail with the other guy :wink:
bambodoggy
06-01-2005, 13:10
Don't know what you would do with the undergrowth side of life mate, but in deep snow I would load my kit into the canoe and use it as a pulk and then take turns in breaking trail with the other guy :wink:
That would be easier but I don't think there'll be any snow over there when the team are going.... :?:
As far as I can tell the Bergan Ally Canoes are man portable by one person....so I think the best way around personal kit is the the team buddies up and one person carries the canoe and the other carries a bergan with both people's kit in it.....just means the team will have to travel light...but then that's the point of us being bushcrafters and not just another expedition right?
As for an odd number, Chris is right...it's a good idea to have a scout in a kayak on an unknown river (using two way radio's back to the team to warn of rappids and falls ect).... but then that throws up it's own problems of portaging a kayak....and that person's person kit. 15 to 20 miles with up to three weeks of rations, your living gear and a whole kayak to yourself isn't going to be any fun. lol....that's why I prefer canoes :o):
Don't know what you would do with the undergrowth side of life mate, but in deep snow I would load my kit into the canoe and use it as a pulk and then take turns in breaking trail with the other guy :wink:
Actually that was me being a bit thick, in deep undergrowth treat the canoe like a log on a military log run. Your pack goes on your back and the canoe goes on your shoulder, bearing in mind there are two of you, one front, one rear. You can use opposing shoulders, but would be better off using the same shoulder, change shoulder every now and again otherwise you will start to lose circulation in that arm. Shorter distances (over sand bars and small land bridges can be done with the canoe at arms length using climbing slings to support it).
You can cover quite large distances like this reasonably comfortably, after all a canoe is not a weighted telegraph pole, even if it is the same length. Hope this is of use. :-)
That would be easier but I don't think there'll be any snow over there when the team are going.... :?:
As far as I can tell the Bergan Ally Canoes are man portable by one person....so I think the best way around personal kit is the the team buddies up and one person carries the canoe and the other carries a bergan with both people's kit in it.....just means the team will have to travel light...but then that's the point of us being bushcrafters and not just another expedition right?
As for an odd number, Chris is right...it's a good idea to have a scout in a kayak on an unknown river (using two way radio's back to the team to warn of rappids and falls ect).... but then that throws up it's own problems of portaging a kayak....and that person's person kit. 15 to 20 miles with up to three weeks of rations, your living gear and a whole kayak to yourself isn't going to be any fun. lol....that's why I prefer canoes :o):
Sorry mate, only read this one after you posted, it had occurred to me as well that you should not have too much snow this time of year just after I posted, all the best and happy new year, Leon. :wave:
arctic hobo
06-01-2005, 16:21
As far as I can tell the Bergan Ally Canoes are man portable by one person....so I think the best way around personal kit is the the team buddies up and one person carries the canoe and the other carries a bergan with both people's kit in it.....just means the team will have to travel light...but then that's the point of us being bushcrafters and not just another expedition right?
That's precisely what I was thinking of :biggthump
....As far as I can tell the Bergan Ally Canoes are man portable by one person....so I think the best way around personal kit is the the team buddies up and one person carries the canoe and the other carries a bergan with both people's kit in it.....just means the team will have to travel light...but then that's the point of us being bushcrafters and not just another expedition right?.......
They are, but if you guys are portaging up to 59 miles on the longest haul, then I wouldn't like to be the one carrying it :yikes:
The trolleys will be a far better option than carrying an akward size thing like a canoe, but once out in the terrain the trolleys won't work all that well.
By the way, the video on Torneälven will be ready over the weekend. I have already digitalised the VHS version, but have to edit and use 2 cd's to get the whole 45 min. The guys even capsize with the big 6 man canoe :o):
Chris, I will PM you when it's ready for posting.
arctic hobo
06-01-2005, 22:57
That's brilliant, thanks. :biggthump
The main trouble with trolleys is what to do with them when we don't need them any more - in fact our need for them is sandwiched between paddling and the middle of nowhere - so they'll have to fit in the canoes if we're to use them.
Don't worry about that, I had a look at the 2 wheeled trolleys at our local canoe center and the trolleys fold up very small and flat, would easily fit into the canoes.
...The main trouble with trolleys is what to do with them when we don't need them any more ....
If you use the 2 wheeled trolleys you can send them to me for safe disposal :o): :roll:
Seriously though (ohh well, that first line was quite serious too :naughty: ), the 2 wheeled version do not occupy very much space when folded. I haven't got one myself, but have borrowed one on several occasions and they are brilliant kit !
bambodoggy
07-01-2005, 13:26
I have to wonder if (being bushcrafti as we are) we couldn't put a couple of these trollies together with a couple of lcally collected branches and then load heaps onto them on the flat bits and maybe make up extra time!
The reason I thought that is that most of these trollies are designed for solid canoes....remember the ones Chris is advocating pack down into their own rucksacs anyway :o):
Trolly would be great for the kayaker though!
TheViking
07-01-2005, 14:36
Spot on. Just throw the trolleys into the canoe when they're not in use and they wont bother. They can even be of help when you build bivouac. :o):
arctic hobo
07-01-2005, 17:20
I have to wonder if (being bushcrafti as we are) we couldn't put a couple of these trollies together with a couple of lcally collected branches and then load heaps onto them on the flat bits and maybe make up extra time!
The reason I thought that is that most of these trollies are designed for solid canoes....remember the ones Chris is advocating pack down into their own rucksacs anyway :o):
Trolly would be great for the kayaker though!
That I think is a very good idea. That way it does not matter if most of the land is too rough to use them and they are too big to fit in the canoes as we can just leave them behind. The trouble with detouring to the road is that it involves losing 90% of the height we will have gained in our tough climb over Revdal. And then of course we must regain it.
Chris (Artic Hobo). Video finished :-)
PM coming !
arctic hobo
10-01-2005, 17:17
Thanks again Gerd :biggthump
Can we sort out names for this expo's meetup in Feb. So far, I've had tentative thumbs' ups from Wayne, Matt, and a maybe from Jake. Surely more people can make it? If so can you please register your interest... with just three/four people it isn't really worth it, we need to make decisions on all sorts of things.
My other half, Sam will be there, Stuart seemed keen too.
sorry I thought it was point out if you couldn't come to any prep meetings. I expect to come to it as well
Chris have you found a Uk suppiler for the canoes yet?
Roving Rich
11-01-2005, 12:59
It would be good to get our hands on one and have a paddle and a portage :roll: I have heard that these canoes are very good. However they are a compromise, and will not handle aswell as a solid canoe particularly in white water. Which brings me to my meeting with my Canoe Guru. No amount of persuading could bring him to even consider taking part this expedition. :shock: He has paddled expeditions not quite as ambitious as this, with hand picked participants from among the top UK paddlers. We are talking 5* paddlers with years of experience, not a bunch of novices with no experience.
I am wondering if the wisest course might be to split this expedition into two halves, and complete it on a second trip ?
He also said that they took the finest dehydrated rations, totaling 7500calories a day intake, and after 22 days paddling, he had lost 2 stone, the party were exhausted and looked like skeletons. The expedition he referred to was not as long overall distance wise, the longest portage was 3 miles, and the rapids only upto grade 3. These rapids were difficult for the 5* experienced paddlers to navigate with loaded rigid canoes. :roll:
He offered lots of advice with regards to training, and running such an expedition, like camping with someone other than your canoeing partner as you are stuck with them all day and need a break. Cooking is done all together in a communal pot rather than individual billies, every piece of equipment is assigned an owner, -"bob's tarp" "Georges axe" so that they are individually responsible for an itinere of expedition items, if they are lost or left at a portage, it is clear who is responsible for them.
The Gist I was getting was that we may well be biting off seriously more than we can chew here. An expedition such as this is not for novices and should not be taken lightly. As for fishing and hunting our way along forget it. It might be nice to supplement expedition rations, but sounds completely unviable as our only food supply.
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.
Rich
bambodoggy
11-01-2005, 14:16
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.Rich
The training sounds like a very very good idea, I can teach you guys a lot and get you all up to 3* level but this guy seems to have far more expedition experience than I do....The three day LLangollen tour is the longest I've paddled day after day in white water and that involved going to the pub at in the evening so wasn't an "expedition" as such. I've done longer trips but only on flat water. Expedition paddling is very different and as Rich advises above paddling a heavy loaded boat in white water is very different to an empty one.
As for the food....there's truth in what Rich says but there's also ways round these things and we're not going to be going hell for leather all the time are we?
I have to wonder why on the quieter stretches people didn't swap with each other in the boats to stave off bordom...which as advised does certainly happen from time to time.
He has offered to train us (some), and attend planning meetings to share his wisdom, and that is precisely what is is, learned the hard way from years of experience. He is quite willing to get an overnight or weekend paddling trip together, and can supply the canoes and equipment necessary.
If we are serious about this, then I think we better take him up on his offer and see where our weaknesses lie.
Another vote for that, excellant idea the better we know one another and get to know each others strengths and weaknesses the better. Training will only go so far, talking to someone whos actually had hands on experience is going to be invaluable. From what I can gather its not going to be full on white water all the way in fact if I read into Chris' words correctly there will be some significant stretches of flat water.
Can anyone answer what sort of realistic daily distances you can cover paddling with the flow but not crippling yourself going hell for leather every second of the day - sorry that was slightly OTT I just mean by keeping up a steady pace??
Roving Rich
11-01-2005, 15:31
Just a thought, but i'm asssuming that about half this paddle is upstream (narrower and steaper, with more white water as we go), then we cross a watershed, and its downstream all the way to the sea :-P I'm also assuming that we will be reccying the rapids and portaging any nasty ones.
Cheers
Rich
Just a thought, but i'm asssuming that about half this paddle is upstream
Rich
I thuoght we walked up the hills and paddeled down them
TheViking
11-01-2005, 15:48
I'm not sure if you're kidding or ironic now, but anyway... It's not possible to paddle upstream. :idea: Not in the long run.
THE SIMPSON
11-01-2005, 16:18
I wholeheartedly agree.
bambodoggy
11-01-2005, 16:36
I'm not sure if you're kidding or ironic now, but anyway... It's not possible to paddle upstream. :idea: Not in the long run.
It is "possible" but blooming hard work and requires a lot of paddle skill and river reading skill as you need to eddy hop....even then it's not fun and I'd say almost impossible with loaded boats and none expert paddlers. Clearly the flow can't be to fast or it is just too hard. Oh and it can take ages and ages to get anywhere.
Much better to portage the boat upstream if that's the way we have to go....I have to admit I haven't studies the map yet.
The Rapids MUST be reccied first (hence possible Kayak scout with walkie talkie) and the big ones and any falls must be portaged around.
The other problem as I meantioned below is that if we're in a gourge and a rapid springs up then there only a few options....try to paddle back upstream (see my comments above), climb out of the gourge and drag the boats up behind us (not a good idea by any standards and could wreck the boats) or finally....head down, teeth gritted and paddle like a man possessed....not ideal but actually safer than climbing out.
All this can be discussed better at the meet up..... lots to think of though.
arctic hobo
11-01-2005, 16:54
Andy plural, you're both right. It's not feasible IMO to paddle up rivers (there are precious few that lead to where we're going. We are paddling up fjords (which just in case no one knows, are inlets), staying of course close to the shore as they are wide and deep. Then we climb 3000ft (that's the really tough bit). From there we must navigate across the plateau to Kilpisjärvi, which is a small town on the Finnish/Swedish border. I think it's originally a Sami town, but since the E8 goes through it I think that it will contain at least some Norwegians. It's of little consequence however.
Then we walk a brief 18mi to Råstajarvi, the lake source of our (enormous) river. The river starts both wide and shallow. There are few rapids and almost no falls. However as is obvious to anyone who's been to a large river's falls, they will be huge - a two edged sword. Firstly, it will make such a tremendous noise that we will quickly be aware that it's no ordinary series of rapids. However it does mean that should we lose someone over the falls, it's likely to be fatal.
I can find no UK supplier for the canoes. Can someone with canoeing connections, say Rich or Phil, find out if there is one?
It would be very tricky indeed to split the expedition in half. Sheer logistics and cost, never mind so much more time (we'd likely have to make it two different years to get the right season), would mean that it would in fact be much easier to do the expedition as one.
As regards food, I intend to take as little as possible. This isn't supposed to be a cosy safe trip, we will need to be very serious about gathering food. If it fails of course we can go to the towns. I have already pointed out that if you consider we are never more than 2 days from a town, and if we take 24 hours rations (how much space can that take up), we have quite sufficient food insurance. If it goes very pear shaped indeed we could even detach an advance party to get food for people left behind.
Since we're a walking as well as canoeing party, portaging will not be a problem. One man can carry a canoe if necessary or split between two people. I have no intention of attempting rapids that I am in any way not sure about. From my own experience alone I know that if you make a mistake, you're in a bad position, so the next maneuvre you will mess up even more etc etc, ending in perhaps a severely injured head or worse.
I would consider it a matter of course to rotate partners, nothing is worse than bad humour in a very isolated trip - I can tell you that for sure. This extends to what you are saying Rich about individual kit, duties like digging latrines, getting fires etc.
Phil you are right we do not need to go hell for leather all the time - far from it in fact. At the estimated speed we will take about 12 days to paddle the whole river - less time than I have allowed for in fact. Plus that speed is based more on families not a party of grown men, however tired and hungry.
Speeds vary depending on which part of the river you are on of course, but we can very realistically travel 30-35km a day. In August the river is not in spate (unlike May or June) and yet is not cold and frozen in any places.
Rich I am certainly not here to contradict your friend the Guru, of course since he has far more experience in canoeing expeditions than myself. However we have one advantage over him, namely the food. I still think that we can rely on fishing and foraging for our food.
The river as I have mentioned is at it's optimum in the time we are going. This is a time of plenty in the whole area we are in. It is much like August here in the UK except that there are a huge number of natural resources as they are untapped thanks to the lack of population in the area. This is when the river teems with fish, the plants come out, the deer and fox are in the woods. This is the time where there is enough food to support people through the winter, never mind just for two weeks. Think of Russian peasants or the Sami - they manage fine all year round in far worse conditions. We need to be open minded in our trip - we cannot expect to step off the boat and find blackberries and wild onions, but we can find plants that give us what we need - all it needs is thick skinned tastebuds and knowledge. I mean, once I was lost for two days on the same plateau as we shall be on in part. We boiled the stems of all the plants and chewed the roots. It didn't taste of much, but it was food, and it kept us going.
arctic hobo
11-01-2005, 16:56
Oh and as regards gorges, I think it will be safer to recce their length first. A runner with a bottle of water can go a long way quickly - the gorges may be very long, although of course if there are places we can exit the river halfway along that is fine.
Chrs.
i think your timings and distances maybe a little over ambitious. How much food do you think can realistically be foragered to feed 10+ hungry men. I would say that most native peoples spend over half their days in food gathering and prep. Then there is 6 to 8 hours a day paddling and reccing rapids plus portaging. Wild foods are great but our western pampered palates have become used to easy living. Tired hungry men soon lose a sense of adventure start bickering.
we this is a serious undertaking that we to be properly prepared for. also the main point is it should be fun. My orginal fears are confirmed by RAs mate that 10+ people are gong to struggle without a massive amount of support and training. I have been talking to canoeing types and have yet to find anyone willing to portage more than 5 miles at a push. We are planning 18.
I have a few alarm bells ringing.
Roving Rich
12-01-2005, 10:26
No Wayne its 52 MILE PORTAGE !
If I am on this trip it is for pleasure rather than an extreme test of endurance. I would prefer to make it as safe, comfortable and enjoyable as possible. Its no stroll in the park and will test nerve and sinew.
Its a very tough route, I don't want to part of a RM "extreme survival" episode, Just making the distance, seeing some wildlife, catching some game and wilderness camping is enough of a challenge for me.
Rich
bambodoggy
12-01-2005, 13:37
I have been talking to canoeing types and have yet to find anyone willing to portage more than 5 miles at a push. We are planning 18.
I have a few alarm bells ringing.
Fair comment Matey but I'll bet none of the canoeing types you have talked to have used the Bergan Ally pack up rucksac type canoes that Chris is advocating using? (Oh and if they have...can you ask them where they got them from in the UK? lol )
For normal Plastic boats that most "normal" paddlers use you are totally right....even 5 miles is hard going!
I'm a little worried about the distances but if the original guy can do it then I'd hope we have a fair chance too.
Need to make sure we have escape routes so that we can allow drop outs if really really needed due to injury, illness, exhaustion etc....
I'm also with Chris on the food side of things.....there's a whole river full of fish to eat, which we can catch with lines off the back of the canoes or in nets strung between them!....we can then store the cooked fish to eat on the hike trails.! We can carry flour to make bannocks etc and eat stuff we find along the way...might be worth collecting berries to dry well in advance of the trip and a few oxo cubes help to make most things edible...if not curry powder certanly will..... as Chris rightly points out we may not like what we're eating but it will help to keep us going and we can re-supply at the villages on-route.
I'm not underestimating the effort needed by the team but lets not freak ourselves out too much before we even have a meet up!
Again....as I said before; we're bushcrafters....we are supposed to be able to improvise and adapt, that's what this trip is all about imo. Distances and carrying aside it's as hard or as easy as we make it.
Chris....just to be a pain I can't make the meetup in Feb....my Mrs is off for a weeks skiing the following weekend and wants me at home the weekend before she goes..... I'll pm you my mobile number nearer the time and you're more than welcome to buzz me if you want a question answered that you think I may know....sorry, can't do anymore than that for now!!!!! :shock:
Reading your plan atm...
Can help with planning/talking to experienced people who`ve hiked/lives in the area, but can`t promise if I can join you cuz of work/school :You_Rock_
Trying hard as hell getting financing for a year of dog-mushing/work training...
http://home7.c2i.net/climber/main.html
I`m officially crazy! :wave:
I`m thinking:
Its daylight 24h around... OoO midnight sun. Its easier to hike then imho..
Cuz its colder(if its a hot autumn), less people to meet, feeling more like being in the wilderness being on the run from the Nazi`s :-P
Can you check the length of the route in km plz?
You got Recon pack(s)? The ally weighs around 30kg i think.
MAYBE I can get Ally canoes for this hike...Maybe very cheap if we`re few (4 max), tarping/bivvying/under the ally`s is my suggestion for sleeping, and if the **** really hits the fan weatherwise having tents sent by express mail from a buddy/family is an option?
I guess ferries is NOT an option?
arctic hobo
12-01-2005, 17:09
Phil, that's exactly how I'm thinking... I'm not a person who is over - optimistic (quite the contrary! :lol: ). Rich this isn't a fun trip in the conventional sense of the word... I do not mean to make anyone think that it will be easy - if I have done so then I apologise. There will be catching game and campfires, and there will also be tough slog up hills and adrenaline packed rapids and tightened belts. This is an expedition not a holiday. Doug thinks that it would be a good idea if I had a chat with Sir Ranulph Fiennes, as he advises expeditions like this. I think that that is a good idea.
Have a look at www.friluftsliv.no. It's in Norwegian, but you can get the idea of the kind of expeditions these people do that like ours - and to them it's not much of a big deal.
The canoes can be carried as Phil said with a buddy system - one canoe carried by one person, two people's kit by another. We're considering trolleys as you know which may make it easier, maybe not. The portage is not 52 miles, that whole leg is 52. The portage is about 38 miles, about half of which can be on a road. Then it is 18 more on the next leg.
I know we're not extreme survivalists or hardened hiking nuts, but I guarantee you (from my own experience), you will moan about the slog but by the end you'll think you wouldn't have missed it for the world. I live for pushing my frontiers on insane expeditions. I quite understand if anyone thinks it is not for them and has second thoughts.
Phil, shame you can't come but that sounds like a good plan :biggthump
arctic hobo
15-01-2005, 10:58
Just finished watching the video, and I thought to myself "this is going to be amazing". Something to tell your grandchildren, how you crossed Scandinavia in a canoe. :biggthump
If anyone wants a copy (it's in Danish but you can watch it muted to get an idea of the area) can they please send me two CD-R's or bring two to the meetup in Feb. :wave:
Roving Rich
17-01-2005, 13:55
Catching Fish and game will only supplement a good supply of rations. Humans cannot survive on just protien, but require fat or carbohydrate to digest it. We will starve to Death on a diet of meat and fish. :roll:
When is the meetup planned ? I am in India mid feb, so may not make it. We need to get together.
Cheers
Rich
arctic hobo
17-01-2005, 16:36
Having been to the area before I am quite sure of myself as regards food... every plant there is rich in carbohyrates, from reindeer moss to pine tree bark/needles (which also give us Vitamin C). We will be eating plants just as much as meat/fish... plants will after all be more plentiful (they're everywhere) and 100% of arctic species are edible - apart from some fungi. Not being a fungus man I'll steer clear of them unless we have an expert coming along. If reindeer moss can sustain whole herds of reindeer then it can certainly sustain us. From my experience carbohydrate rich plants will certainly not be hard to come by. And many contain relatively significant fats as well. Add to that fat from any game we can hunt.
Roving Rich
19-01-2005, 11:30
:biggthump Thats good news. Didn't fancy starving on the way.
I have been trying to get through to the UK distributor for the Bergen Canoes, but no Joy sofar - just rings and rings, then diverts to fax. :roll:
Cheers
Rich
arctic hobo
19-01-2005, 16:22
Thanks for your efforts :biggthump
Moonraker
21-01-2005, 21:43
You probably already know but the UK dealer for Bergan (Ally Canoes) is:
Scandinavian Partnerships Ltd
23/25 Peckover Street
Little Germany
Bradford, BD1 5BD
United Kingdom
E-mail:
info@outdoor-company.co.uk
Url.:*
www.outdoor-company.co.uk
Phone:
(+44) (0) 870 242 7152
Fax:*
(+44) (0) 1606 352 713
Details from bergan site. However that web site was down when I looked :?: Sounds like it may well be a defunct contact. I would suggest emailing Bergan direct to find out who carries their stock inc. Ally Canoes in the UK (email from their site)
marked@bergans.no
By pure chance I am actually travelling through Hokksund where Bergan are based mid February but unfortunately it is at 23:00 on the way to Oslo from Torp airport or else I would have gladly dropped in :cry:
I did mention before I had some friends there but now I am going myself perhaps i can find out some info for you during my stay? If there is anything I can be finding out for you there Chris just let me know. I am not going up as far as Trømso this trip, only up to Trondheim but it will be easier whilst I can pick the brains of my friends on the ground as such.
For info I will be briefly visiting Oslo then heading up to Alvdal up in Hedmark, then Trondheim, Bergen then finally returning from Haugesund.
arctic hobo
21-01-2005, 21:56
Moonraker, thanks a lot for both info and offers :You_Rock_
I'll get in touch with Bergans about that supplier, I had that info but just like yours it didn't work, and they didn't answer their phone :?:
I'll have another crack at it.
I'm not sure what route you're taking that goes through Hokksund :shock: but it's no problem, I'm in Norway soon (going to watch the 100 years of independance in May) so if there's anything I need I'll have a look myself - I have a few friends (including one in Alta, near where we'll be going) doing some favours for me already. Thanks very much for the offer though :biggthump it's very kind of you.
Have fun on your trip, have a look round mountains when you're in Alvdal :wave:
bambodoggy
26-01-2005, 11:45
Hey All..... I was wondering around the web just now and totally by accident came across this....
http://www.kayak.co.uk/boats/folding1.htm
They have the folding canoes and also inflatables (think the folders are better)....The Ally15DR at the top is the cheapest, lightest and best for portage. They also sell the backpac's and pack sacs to go with!
Bingo.... :o):
They are based in Dollar in Scotland.....anyone close enough to go take a looksy?
Moonraker
26-01-2005, 14:25
Well found BamboD :biggthump
I also came across a Norwegian web site which hires the 611 ALLY 15´ DR canoe here:
KLATRING & KURSING - Padling (http://www.klatresiden.no/padling.htm)
In Norwegian. It gives details of cost ( for example: upto 1 day 300NOK or around £25). Some cost for insurance i think (damage?) and says they are for hire as collapsible canoes. But I have not idea if you could use them outside the Larvik commune down on the south east coast where they are based. Just thought I would pass it on. They are a climbing shop mainly I think.
Best price I could find in Norway was NOK 9,898 inc tax which works out around £836 here:
Sport It - BE.00611 : Ally 15 DR (http://www.sport-it.no/show.asp?page=znet_nettbutikk_ BE.00611.htm)