View Full Version : shelter building
leigh bateman
25-11-2004, 22:05
can anyone help with the thatching side of building a shelter. i have constucted a group shelter like the one ray mears does but as yet have not thatched it. it is in a wood with a variety of trees and could thus thatch with beech and oak leaves or ever green foliage. which woud be the most water proof as the pitch is about 35 degrees and to me it looks like it will leak with any of these two. any suggestions. cheers leigh
Last time i thatched a very small shelter it was autumn. Lots of wet leaves about. Took us about 3 hours, but after had a completely waterproof shelter. We just piled up leaves and then kept adding layers.
Oh, and welcome to BCUK, enjoy mate! :biggthump
Traditionaly a thatched roof was made of straw or water reeds that were hollow. They were layed in such a way as to channel the water off of the roof..... a thatched roof tends to be about 45 degrees though.
Personally I have used leaf debris as mentioned above, turf/earth, bracken/ferns, heather and straw. Not sure how waterproof they would be on a group shelter as you described though.... the angle may be a bit shallow to get the water to run off quickly enough, not sure though... keep us posted how you get on :biggthump
Welcome to BCUK :wave:
Ed
reduce the amount of holes through to the inside with branches, bracken or any other matter that will cover a good area, then pile the mulch on, leaves, more leaves, more leaves and ......more. Don't skimp on the mulch, it needs to be thick and it needs to cover the whole thing, well except for the doorway and the hole in the top :wink: After you've got it all covered put some branches on to help keep it in place and if you've got time leave it to settle a bit (day or two.....or more) this will allow the bugs etc to drop out and the mulch to settle, then you can add more :wink: Get a fire going in it, that will help get it all dried out.
To be honest you can build it and get straight in and you'll love it but if you've got time and all that!! Are you building beds in it as well or sleeping on the floor? These sorts of shelters are fantastic, warm, waterproof....home from home :biggthump
You may be able to change the angle to get it steeper using the mulch, it's worth a try, start at the bottom and work your way up :wink:
A good way to gather up lots of leaves is to just run your foot along the ground...like a rake! Hard work, but as the man said, you need lots and lots and lots and more leaves!
If you have loads of leaves then a debris shelter is the way to go. But you need LOTS of leaves. Bugs are a problem so if you can get a smudge fire going then that will evict them pretty quick.
Also, if you are leaving it (especially if you are going to leave kit in it), make sure you can find it again as they can be really tricky to see (especially at night).
We took a photo of ours during the day from above and you couldn't see it at all! It wasn't a paticualarly bright day...nevertheless.
:wink:
if you are going to cover it in multch/leaf litter it needs to be of a depth the same as the length of you arm between your hand and elbow to be totaly water proof :pack:
ChrisKavanaugh
26-11-2004, 01:54
This suggestion is not for purists, born again Druids whistling Jethro Tull's SONG OF THE WOODS or Luddites fleeing manufactured materials with little resemblance to anything in nature (me.) You have your basic shelter frame assembled. Take out one ( or more) of the infamous space blankets or a small tarp and drape them first. Now add your leafs, peat preserved romano-british textiles with coins bearing Hadrian's profile, rushes etc. This eliminates the problem of beasties dropping in for a visit. With space blankets, any fire increases efficiency from reflected heat. :pack:
A lot of the knack of waterproofing a shelter comes from positioning it well - try to position the shelter so that the shelter wall is not facing straight into the rain, but rather that any rainfall will hit it at an angle - if it does this, you will get more water bouncing off, and there will be less need for a heavier layer of branches/leaves/mulch etc. The same goes for your vertical angle - the steeper is it, the more deflection you will get, or at least the more internal run-off you will get (water hits the shelter and tends to run in the direction it is already travelling - if the shelter is quite parallel to the ground, the rain will go through, if it is more perpendicular, it will run down the shelter walls to the ground).
Using natural shelter is also the most important part of choosing where to place your shelter. Dense tree coverage, rocky overhangs/caves, fallen trees etc all give good starting points for shelter, and minimise the effort needed to collect enough materials to make your shelter waterproof.
Another approach that isn't often mentioned is to create a shelter with reasonable cover, but then to line the inside of the shelter, preferably with an inch or so gap between the outer and inner layers. You need a lot less coverage to protect against gently dripping/running water than you do against the force of water falling from the sky at speed, and the outer layer should reduce/deflect the force of the approaching rain.)
Saying that - your best bet overall is a good basha/bivy/tent! But beggar can't be choosers! :wink:
Waterproofing a natural shelter needs you to do two things,
Firstly, your walls should be at the correct shed angle - this is 45 degrees for rain and 60 degrees for snow.
Secondly, thatch with anything handy bracken, branches, moss or leaf mould but the over all thickness of your thatching should be roughly elbow deep to shed rain and shoulder deep to properly insulate in cold conditions. But with thatching its a case of the more the merrier - and remember your thatch will settle and need topping up once in a while too.
Take that in to consideration when building and you wont go far wrong. Fires, bed ect should also be planned before building starts and as pointed out a good (the best possible) site should also be selected before you begin work.
Gary has it spot on there. Site location is probably THE most important factor to consider first.
One thing I have found in mixed woodland is to put down a layer of fir branches as the first layer of thatch, which stops bits falling thru, then leaves, more fir, more leaves etc finishing with fir as its quite water repellent and sheds the rain nicely.
Like the others said, If you've only done the framework, steepen the anle now for better runoff and then start thatching till the holes are smaller than fist sized and finally pile on your leaf litter good and deep. Light a real smoky fire as your first one to drive out the beasties and then you're ready for good times :o):
Chris...What's wrong with 'songs from the wood' :shock:
Let me bring you songs from the wood:
to make you feel much better than you could know.
Dust you down from tip to toe.
Show you how the garden grows.
Hold you steady as you go.
Join the chorus if you can:
it'll make of you an honest man.
Let me bring you love from the field:
poppies red and roses filled with summer rain.
To heal the wound and still the pain
that threatens again and again
as you drag down every lover's lane.
Life's long celebration's here.
I'll toast you all in penny cheer.
Let me bring you all things refined:
galliards and lute songs served in chilling ale.
Greetings well met fellow, hail!
I am the wind to fill your sail.
I am the cross to take your nail:
A singer of these ageless times.
With kitchen prose and gutter rhymes.
Songs from the wood make you feel much better.
:super:
Bad Mad Dave!
I've just read your sig...
One point to remember is make sure that the uprights and ridge poles are strong enough to take the weight of the shelter, it will increase the wetter it gets also when stacking the leaning posts, try and keep them as close as possible this will stop debris falling in to the shelter. I always compress the first layer to ensure that there are no gaps in the thatch.
Frogo
Life's a Long Song, eh, Maddave - wish I could remember the tune to go with the lyrics..
ChrisKavanaugh
30-11-2004, 00:18
The Kavanaugh LOVES Jethro Tull :super:
the problem with using greenstuff as thatching is that it tends to dry out and curl up and shrink to nothing. but good for covering gaps to pile loads of leaf litter onto.
there're some photo's of a couple of group shelters here.
http://www.outdoors-magazine.com/s_article.php?id_article=124
cheers, and.
Rhapsody
04-01-2005, 00:55
Here's me in the shelter a friend and I built last time we were up the woods:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/kungfutortoise/Sol1.jpg
(That there is the first fire I ever started with sparks, by the way!)
They say that you should learn from your mistakes and I sure learnt a lot from building this! That design is certainly not a style I'll choose again... unless I fancy being woken up at two o'clock in the morning absolutely freezing in a sodden sleeping bag with rain dripping onto my face again, that is! The thatching was of dead ferns as this was all that seems available in that woods in the middle of winter and although, at about 8 inches thick, we thought it would suffice, this thatching proved to be woefully inadequate against that night's heavy downpour. Also, the round-tree design was, in hindsight, a grave error as although of the evergreen treetop provided us with a little extra shelter (as intended), the tree negated any benefit by acting as a gulley and chanelling water down its trunk and onto our kit!
Learn from my mistakes, people; I sure hope to do so myself!
if you are going to cover it in multch/leaf litter it needs to be of a depth the same as the length of you arm between your hand and elbow to be totaly water proof :pack:
the more the better, the lower you make the celing(sp:roll:) the warmer it will be, remember heat rises so it will just dissapear up in to your rafters if you make your shelter too high.. cold air sinks to the ground so make em low! :wink:
the woodrat really loves jethro tull, and he thinks all you guy are pretty great too.
A blast from the past....... :welcome:
i would love to try out some shelters but i dont have permission to build one anywhere
leon
ArkAngel
04-12-2006, 18:49
I agree with Leon...
I have nowhere to build a shelter :( so it would seem wasteful of natural resources to make any type of shelter that was not going to be used for at least one night.
I understand the theory and British Reds post was most informative.
Any suggestions?
Fire Starter
04-12-2006, 20:26
A blast from the past....... :welcome:
Another great blast from the past thread Wayland - You have really kick started this forum now.
One skill I have tried to practice is looking for improveable natural shelters when I'm out. It is in theory much more efficient than building one and training your eye is not only a useful skill (although when combined with mushroom hunting and looking for woodpeckers you will probably fall over :lmao: ) but it gets your mind working too.
If you're intersted I made a post about it a few months ago here - Shelters in Pinewoods (http://woodcraftinpoland.blogspot.com/2006/09/shelters-in-pinewoods.html)
You have really kick started this forum now.
It doesn't take much. I just used the search function and started at the other end.
This Forum is full of good stuff already, people just need reminding occasionally.
riddleofsteel
05-12-2006, 04:14
In our woods some type of fungus disease has killed a lot of the red oaks. One of the symptoms is that the bark of the trees scales off in large sheets. On our last outing we collected a huge pile of red oak bark slabs. The inside of the slabs are covered with a black tar like substance I assume is sap and fungus. We built a stout frame work of eastern red cedar poles lashed together with cordage made from wysteria vines and vine bark. We took advantage of several trees with low forks to support our ridge poles. No amount of weight can tear down that ridge pole short of the pole breaking. We used cedar and pine poles lashed to the ridge pole and support trees and created a three sided shelter. We wove wysteria vines between the poles basket style and covered the entire shelter in overlapping bark slabs. This process was harder than it sounds and we soon learned to bore holes in the top of the slabs and tie them off to the basket framework with vine bark coardage. Properly overlapped they are completely water, snow and wind proof. The design is similar to the Native American bark long house.
Suprisingly this shelter is not very warm. It may be a function of making it to big and the fact it is open on one side. On the next outing I plan to cover the open side and add a small open front shelter for cooking and outdoor activities. An indoor hearth and fire hole in the roof is planned as well. We spent a lot of time on this shelter and with care it could certainly last many seasons and make a good addition to our primitive camp.
Quick temporary shelters can be covered in bark slabs if they are available. We are already talking about a small bark teepee with bark sides covered in pine and laurel boughs and leaf debris. The inside would be fireproof and the debris and boughs would help insulate it. The ability to build a fire inside the shelter safely would really help keep us warm as the temps here are dipping fast as the winter progresses.
That could be warmed up a lot with a leaf litter or rough thatch cover. It sounds like air flow is the only problem, great idea.
Fire Starter
05-12-2006, 23:18
It doesn't take much. I just used the search function and started at the other end.
This Forum is full of good stuff already, people just need reminding occasionally.
Thanks for the tip, It will help with my navigation of the site. I do think its a pity no one has added to the post for nearly two years though :)
This is part of the problem. good threads like this get forgotten because many people just browse the new posts or the most recent ones in each forum.
Once the most active members have posted a few time the threads slip into obscurity, not because they are without value but because people move on.
Revisiting them after a while brings in new voices and ideas which is great.
i like a 60 degree or so angle for my shelter, all the ones i have built with more shallow angles have leaked a lot during the rain. if i need to build one in the future it will be 60 degrees. as a kicker i carr one of those very thin painters drop cloths, the plastic is very thin and hard to open, but it will give you a lot of water proof area, spreading this over your shelter will tincreas the rain impermiability greatly and they fit in my survivfal pouch with a sortsmans blanket and a 2 space blankets.
what has greatly intregued me is the mors kochanski super shelter, i have not built one yet, but have read mors book, and am ver interested.
alex
Hi, Merry Christmas.
People keep talking of leaf debris. In my experience it doesn't work against rain at all. It just acts like a sponge. You might stay dry for the first hour of rain, but by then the stuff is soaked and for every drop of rain that lands on top, a drop falls through underneath!
When I were nobbut a lad, I build a fantastic shelter and thatched it with a couple of bales of hay. It was brilliant, until it rained. Then it was like sheltering inside... a very wet thing. Very wet. And it stayed wet long after the rain stopped.
I'm lucky: I have access to a bit of neglected valley land in Northumberland, so I can experiment. Dead bracken is good, so long as you use it properly. You need to gather it in bundles, with the stalks all pointing in the same direction. If you think it is going to rain, shake it to get rid of the old leaves. They're really good for bulk, and will build a quick roof, good insulation etc, but like leaf litter, just get wet, then drip. Then lay the bracken stalk bundles on the roof, with the stalks pointing up and down, so water runs down the stalks. You have to use a huge amount to get a proper thatch: a whole armful is just placed on, as it is, and don't spread it out. But it works very well, even in very wet weather. And it's easy to gather, though bracken cuts are pretty horrid. Wear old leather gloves. Cheap gardening gloves are good. It doesn't last long: it rots to pretty well nothing in a few weeks.
Reeds are the best: we have a marshy valley bottom with forests of reeds. They don't grow very tall, and they're not easy to harvest, but they have a sort of shiny outer, and shed water like fury, and they don't rot like bracken. I've thatched shelters with this stuff and it seems to last indefinitely.
The idea is to have dense cover of lines of something: stalks of bracken, thin sticks, reeds, whatever, all pointing down. Then the rain falls on the first layer and runs down it, surface tension and all that, before being joined by more rain from the sky, and getting so large it drips down to the next layer, where it runs down again, a few inches down the stalk, before getting too large again... and if you have, in effecty ten layers or so, it never gets through, but goes to the ground.
As someone said, the angle is very important. There really is no such thing as water-proof cover, the best you can get is stuff that doesn't absorb water, like reeds, and will shed water at an angle. A flat roof made of genuine commercial thatch will eventually leak. It really has to be at least 50 degrees before it will shed water and this tends to mean a small, steep shelter. But dry.
Regards
gaz_miggy
29-12-2006, 13:06
just remember that it srinkes the more wight you put on it so always make the shelter bigger than you think youll need it, i didnt and start with one i could lie in and ended up with only being ablie to just sit in it