View Full Version : Britain BC Kit?
what would the ancient brits be using for a single man trip?
Wool bedroll?
........................
Depends how ancient Dunk.
I'd say plenty of animal furs
before the bloody Romans got here and ruined the place.
Wool, linen, nettle, hemp, leather, fur, marine skins for waterproofs. Maybe grass cloaks too where they didn't have wool.
cheers,
Toddy
i want to go on a weekend hike with nothing but the minimum that the ancients would have.
Knife?
Wool bedroll?
what else?
sandbender
05-05-2009, 12:45
i want to go on a weekend hike with nothing but the minimum that the ancients would have.
Knife?
Wool bedroll?
what else?
I think single man trips would have been an unusual occurrence, so you'd best take your family, your brothers and sisters and their families, your cousins, your cousins families and quite a few dogs :D
Look up some of the photography of Edward S. Curtis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_S._Curtis), specifically his photography of the native peoples of the Pacific North West or North Eastern Canada these may give you some ideas about how early Britons may have lived.
Some photos here (http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/14940/wm/pd1759705.jpg), here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Inuit_man_by_Curtis_-_Noatak_AK.jpg), here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Edward_S._Curtis_Collection_Pe ople_005.jpg) and here (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Noatak-Alaska01.jpg).
:)
a loin cloth, a club and a pedal car with stone wheels.
gregorach
05-05-2009, 13:07
I very much doubt they'd have had bedrolls. Or gone "hiking" (as we understand it) much...
Dave_the_Pilgrim
05-05-2009, 13:29
before the bloody Romans got here and ruined the place.
After all, what have the Romans ever done for us ??? :-)
Dave
sandbender
05-05-2009, 13:45
After all, what have the Romans ever done for us ??? :-)
Dave
The aqueduct (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaE3EaQte78&feature=related) :)
After all, what have the Romans ever done for us ??? :-)
Dave
alright they gave us some pretty good thing but they did chop down alot of our trees for farming...
what if you had to say carry a message from one village to another thats say 60 miles away and you had to go alone?
w00dsmoke
05-05-2009, 13:56
i want to go on a weekend hike with nothing but the minimum that the ancients would have.
Knife?
Wool bedroll?
what else?
You'll get arrested...pmsl :D
You'll get arrested...pmsl :D
your right!!! o well ha ha
swampy99
05-05-2009, 14:04
before the bloody Romans got here and ruined the place.
Good health service.
gregorach
05-05-2009, 14:19
what if you had to say carry a message from one village to another thats say 60 miles away and you had to go alone?
Certainly there would have been a reasonable amount of such travel, but you're looking at a much more decentralised pattern of habitation. A few houses here, a farm there... There is a well-attested tradition of offering hospitality to travellers from the very earliest recorded history, persisting right through to relatively recent times in the wilder and less habited parts of the country.
So, in a situation like that, you would probably seek hospitality in whatever dwellings you found along the way. You'd need to get information about the route from locals too, as there were no maps and few roads, and very few people travelled frequently enough to know the routes outside their local area.
Even in the relatively recent past, unsupported long-distance travel was relatively rare. The closest I can think of would be the Highland drovers, and even then, they'd make use of whatever hospitality was available, with only relatively short distances of unsupported travel. And there is no evidence that I'm aware of that they carried any real camping equipment of any kind. A night in the heather was an occasional hardship, but not one you'd bother carrying heavy specialist gear to deal with. You'd just wrap yourself up in a cloak (or Great Kilt, after it came into use) and hope it didn't rain too much.
could any of you travel 60 miles with nothing but your cloak and hope of hospitality?
gregorach
05-05-2009, 14:40
Well, the hospitality thing was more than a hope in those days, it was how society operated, precisely because people occasionally needed to travel and that was the only practical way. So, in that society, yes - much more easily than trying to build the equivalent of modern camping kit from period materials and hump it around on your back.
You asked how the "ancient" Britons would have done it. That's how. There's no shortage of attestation, from contemporary accounts by continental historians, references in the bits of the oral culture which survived long enough to get written down in the early Medieval period, and the survival of such practices into the historical period proper. You go back even a couple of hundred years, and that's how travellers travelled. Camping is a relatively recent innovation.
i'm not really talking about camping as such....
i was thinking more of a Aragorn/Strider [sad i know] type person on a short trip.
Dave_the_Pilgrim
05-05-2009, 15:00
Why not look at the webpages for Ozzi, the man found in the mountains who'd been under the ice ? There's quite a bit of info about what he was carrying and wearing. That might be a good place to start.
Dave
Why not look at the webpages for Ozzi, the man found in the mountains who'd been under the ice ? There's quite a bit of info about what he was carrying and wearing. That might be a good place to start.
Dave
Do you mean Ötzi the Iceman?
gregorach
05-05-2009, 15:16
That's probably where Toddy's suggestion of the grass cloak comes from...
For your hypothetical trip, using a fantasy ranger as a template. What people have said above is about right I think, a woollen cloak, an oilskin perhaps, a good pair of boots etc, and some food. Although to be honest if you're thinking along the lines of Strider from Lord of the Rings, why not read the books - not the films, which are a travesty.
For your hypothetical trip, using a fantasy ranger as a template. What people have said above is about right I think, a woollen cloak, an oilskin perhaps, a good pair of boots etc, and some food. Although to be honest if you're thinking along the lines of Strider from Lord of the Rings, why not read the books - not the films, which are a travesty.
yeah i've read nearly all the Tolkien books and Strider has just a bedroll, sword, small knife, oil stone and a few other bits and bobs.
Need to get me some Lambas bread eh
sandbender
05-05-2009, 17:25
and Strider has just a bedroll, sword, small knife, oil stone and a few other bits and bobs.
Don't forget that he also has the blood of Númenor flowing through his veins and thus is probably a bit more ruffty tuffty than anyone here :D
Additionally I'd think that the Dúnedain of the North and the Kingdom of Gondor would be more analogous to the early European middle ages rather than Pre-Roman Britain. :)
Okay, 60 miles, wilderness Scotland at let's say this time of year.
Traditional clothing ?
Think trews and tunics. Linen under, wool on top.
A wool hat or hood with a yoke.
A good, well fulled woollen plaid, for both your cloak and your blanket, or even as a tarp.
A strong leather belt.
A knife.
A small bag of dry firestarting materials.
A bowl and spoon of wood or horn,
A small leather bag of oatmeal, the stuff Scots call pinhead meal for making real porridge.
A small leather bag of dried fish or meat or pemican.
Since it's now and not then, and you might not trust the water, a waterskin.
That would do quite comfortably so long as you're fit and motivated. :D
Best of luck with it :cool:
cheers,
Toddy
big_swede
05-05-2009, 18:11
what kind of shoes toddy?
BTW, I love when people mix up fantasy novels with historic stuff! Fascinating world you must live in! :D Was the battle of gondor before or after the battle of hastings? :)
Why not look at the webpages for Ozzi, the man found in the mountains who'd been under the ice ? There's quite a bit of info about what he was carrying and wearing. That might be a good place to start.
Dave
Ozzi Of Bourne?
'Shaaaarrooooonnn! Where's moy possibles bag?' :D
In all seriousness, from my bad memory, I think Otzi had firelighting kit - certainly flint and possible iron/steel?
[QUOTE=big_swede;534892]what kind of shoes toddy? QUOTE]
You know I logged back in to add them :D
I'd go with either felted wool stockings or footwraps and leather ankle boots.
Something like the medieval ones that have a thong around the ankle to wrap and tie closed.
No getting away from it, Scotland's wet, but at least in wool he'd be warm as well as damp.
cheers,
M
big_swede
05-05-2009, 18:30
[QUOTE=big_swede;534892]what kind of shoes toddy? QUOTE]
You know I logged back in to add them :D
I'd go with either felted wool stockings or footwraps and leather ankle boots.
Something like the medieval ones that have a thong around the ankle to wrap and tie closed.
No getting away from it, Scotland's wet, but at least in wool he'd be warm as well as damp.
cheers,
M
Hmm, I know vikings used seal skin boots (warmer when wet than ordinary leather), would surprise me if they didn't use seal skin in the UK too.
[QUOTE=Toddy;534896]
Hmm, I know vikings used seal skin boots (warmer when wet than ordinary leather), would surprise me if they didn't use seal skin in the UK too.
It's a funny thing that, seal skin doesn't wear well on land travel though, while deerskin, which was used until comparatively recently does. On frozen tundra, snow and ice, or on a boat, then, yep, I reckon sealskin too.
I tried sealskin for courrans and wore through them in a fortnight, deerskin wore soft and thin but were still sound after several months.
Scottish and Irish courrans and brogues were originally fashioned with the hair inwards for warmth. So I suppose they'd be suitable too.
We're not really used to wearing that type of unsupported shoe nowadays though, and if he's after 60 miles in a few days, I think he'd be a lot better off with something a bit more solid. It seems that most folk in the past went barefoot except in really bad weather.
Has anybody made a fish skin or marine animal intestine waterproof overjacket ?
cheers,
Toddy
big_swede
05-05-2009, 18:42
[QUOTE=big_swede;534901]
It's a funny thing that, seal skin doesn't wear well on land travel though, while deerskin, which was used until comparatively recently does. On frozen tundra, snow and ice, or on a boat, then, yep, I reckon sealskin too.
I tried sealskin for courrans and wore through them in a fortnight, deerskin wore soft and thin but were still sound after several months.
Scottish and Irish courrans and brogues were originally fashioned with the hair inwards for warmth. So I suppose they'd be suitable too.
We're not really used to wearing that type of unsupported shoe nowadays though, and if he's after 60 miles in a few days, I think he'd be a lot better off with something a bit more solid. It seems that most folk in the past went barefoot except in really bad weather.
Has anybody made a fish skin or marine animal intestine waterproof overjacket ?
cheers,
Toddy
Interesting to hear real experience, I know I should have trusted my gut feeling and not put down that payment and taken that loan for that seal skin trekking boot factory.
What do they use for the soles ?
They wore through on mine so fast :(
You don't know what they are tanned with, do you ? Mine were veg tanned.
cheers,
Toddy
i want to go on a weekend hike with nothing but the minimum that the ancients would have.
Hi Dunk, this is a pretty cool idea. Let's do it. You over there and me over here. What say we pick a date for next month, which will give time to get kit and route sorted out and some time to get the feet in shape. I'm not quite up to travelling "B.C." or "Period" style myself but I was thinking wool blanket, knife, and everything else has to fit in a musette bag. I'm always more motivated to do this kind of thing if other people are "going" with. A solo/"virtual group" event. Interested?
before the bloody Romans got here and ruined the place.
Yeah - what did they ever do for us?
Jim
big_swede
05-05-2009, 20:15
What do they use for the soles ?
They wore through on mine so fast :(
You don't know what they are tanned with, do you ? Mine were veg tanned.
cheers,
Toddy
I have no idea. I don't even know if they left the fur on. I think they did, but don't know for sure. I guess they would use really thick cow leather tanned in oak brine for soles, but it could also be rawhide maybe? There is one version of tanning where you leave a center layer almost raw (untanned), this method was used for soles by the sami peoples, I think that would be good for soles also for the vikings.
I definitely think the vikings were so 'civilised' that they had the technology to do veg tanning, I think mainly oak and maybe other hardwoods too. Can't say I'm sure though :o
I'd never heard of that type of sole, really interesting :cool:
Don't suppose you have any links I could read ? My courran soles are too thin when walking around on modern paths and the like, and I pad them inside with wool or grass. It'd be excellent to try something different that might work just using the leather.
The Vikings made some truly excellent leather, there's a lot of it turns up in wet sites like York, Dublin and London as well as within Scandinavia.
cheers,
Toddy
hurrahbro
05-05-2009, 20:28
*de-lurks*
A bunch of 4th century Roman auxiliaries on a 'patrol'
http://www.comitatus.net/events_files/WallWalkIII/index.html
Can't be much different?
I've often wanted to try bronze age buschrafting for some reason :)
If you get back to the UK speak with Wayland :) the Murton site he organised the Dark Ages Meet at was really excellent :cool: and the idea was to become more and more authentic each time.
atb,
Toddy
*de-lurks*
A bunch of 4th century Roman auxiliaries on a 'patrol'
http://www.comitatus.net/events_files/WallWalkIII/index.html
Can't be much different?
"An 11-mile walk.....via The Twice Brewed pub." This sounds pretty nice. I was thinking of something a little more like a "messenger's quest" scenario myself. A little trek where I don't carry the items I normally would, sort of an experiment to try new things, or old things more like it. Any excuse to go for a long walk. Yep, I'm doing it next month, not the pub crawl, afterwards maybe. And like a meet, do it again next year and see what I've learned.
Otzi website
http://www.iceman.it/en/oetzi-the-iceman
John Fenna
05-05-2009, 21:19
If you get back to the UK speak with Wayland :) the Murton site he organised the Dark Ages Meet at was really excellent :cool: and the idea was to become more and more authentic each time.
atb,
Toddy
Just made myself a pair of "Viking " wool trousers for cold weather camp overtrousers/Dark age meets - if I can ever get to one!
I quite fancy using the gear that was current when Bushcraft skills were Life skills....
Paint yourself in woad and get out there. A few flint sharps and you're laughing :-)
Ozzi Of Bourne?
'Shaaaarrooooonnn! Where's moy possibles bag?' :D
In all seriousness, from my bad memory, I think Otzi had firelighting kit - certainly flint and possible iron/steel?
The only metal object Otzi was carrying was a copper axe head which was really advanced for the period he lived in.
I have no idea. I don't even know if they left the fur on. I think they did, but don't know for sure. I guess they would use really thick cow leather tanned in oak brine for soles, but it could also be rawhide maybe? There is one version of tanning where you leave a center layer almost raw (untanned), this method was used for soles by the sami peoples, I think that would be good for soles also for the vikings.
I definitely think the vikings were so 'civilised' that they had the technology to do veg tanning, I think mainly oak and maybe other hardwoods too. Can't say I'm sure though :o
I have used some of that half tanned leather on a couple of projects and it's interesting stuff, quite rigid when dry. The only problem I see with it for soles is that when wet it is even softer than full tanned hide.
thanks for all the reply's ;]
some very interesting reads.
i was thinking about doing a small trip this weekend maybe 30mile
i'll be wearing normal clothing
british army lightweight trousers
walking boots with wool socks
cotton shirt
wool jumper
i'll be taking a wool bedroll, knife, bread, cheese and dried meat and some fire lighting kit.
sandbender
06-05-2009, 13:38
i'll be wearing normal clothing
british army lightweight trousers
walking boots with wool socks
cotton shirt
wool jumper
The cotton shirt and trousers aren't such a good idea, even if the weather remains good you will build up a bit of a sweat over that distance and your body will struggle to regulate its temperature, at the very least you should have a spare shirt and socks to change into.
Maybe nip along to Oxfam or the Army Navy Stores to look for a woolen shirt?
:)
The cotton shirt and trousers aren't such a good idea, even if the weather remains good you will build up a bit of a sweat over that distance and your body will struggle to regulate its temperature, at the very least you should have a spare shirt to change into.
wear them all the time and don't have any bother really.
i don't mind being a bit sweaty. i can't stand tech clothing cause it just makes me sweat more than cotton.
wear them all the time and don't have any bother really.
i don't mind being a bit sweaty. i can't stand tech clothing cause it just makes me sweat more than cotton. cotton kills, wear wool, wool will keep you warm even if it's wet, but cotton will suck the heat out of you when it gets wet,
Not so good it you have a limited kit.
cotton kills, wear wool, wool will keep you warm even if it's wet, but cotton will suck the heat out of you when it gets wet,
Not so good it you have a limited kit.
what wool trousers and shirt? i think i would pass out from heat!
what wool trousers and shirt? i think i would pass out from heat!I can't think why, I've a summer weight suit that is made from wool, and it's cooler to wear than my other suits. Not all wool is like wearing a pullover.
sandbender
06-05-2009, 14:24
wear them all the time and don't have any bother really.
i don't mind being a bit sweaty. i can't stand tech clothing cause it just makes me sweat more than cotton.
I can understand not wanting to wear technical clothing, you may feel less sweaty wearing cotton and that may be because the cotton has wicked the moisture away from your skin more efficiently than a man made shirt might. However the man made fiber will allow the moisture to evaporate, the cotton will remain damp for much longer and that, as Tadpole suggests, can be a killer.
I can understand not wanting to wear technical clothing, you may feel less sweaty wearing cotton and that may be because the cotton has wicked the moisture away from your skin more efficiently than a man made shirt might. However the man made fiber will allow the moisture to evaporate, the cotton will remain damp for much longer and that, as Tadpole suggests, can be a killer.
i know all this but i dont reallt sweat a great deal in cotton thats what im saying
sandbender
06-05-2009, 16:20
i know all this but i dont reallt sweat a great deal in cotton thats what im saying
Good stuff, hope you have a great walk, maybe take some pics for the rest of us?
:)
Minotaur
07-05-2009, 15:40
before the bloody Romans got here and ruined the place.
Being a Roman not so hard lots of writing, pre-Roman they are still working out lots and lots. Plus the big problem of what they did do for us. Lots of plants and animals are labeled introduced by the Romans.
Also could you like pick a period?
Ozti is 3300BC, and Ceasar turned up in 55BC. That runs the line from stone to steel, near enough.
If you want to go as close to 55BC as poss, you will need to pick a people as well. Ceasar's had dealings with Celtic tribes
Also just because they invaded does not mean they did a lot, except bring booze. It took them over a hundred years.
Wool, linen, nettle, hemp, leather, fur, marine skins for waterproofs. Maybe grass cloaks too where they didn't have wool.
cheers,
Toddy
Lot of that going to be big fun to work out, and then find.
what kind of shoes toddy?
BTW, I love when people mix up fantasy novels with historic stuff! Fascinating world you must live in! :D Was the battle of gondor before or after the battle of hastings? :)
Ok, to get flamed. Did he not steal Lord Of The Rings, from the Vikings, or their myths, and legends. A lot of his fantasy is based in the real world. Apprently he was a very good professor, and still considered to be one of the lead experts in his field.
If you do a search for the 95th rifles, and Sharpe. Their period expert did something like this, and does make for an interesting read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toddy http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=534757#post53 4757)
Wool, linen, nettle, hemp, leather, fur, marine skins for waterproofs. Maybe grass cloaks too where they didn't have wool.
cheers,
Toddy
Lot of that going to be big fun to work out, and then find.
Apart from the grass cloak I've got it all in my workroom right now :cool: Bet you Wayland has too, Eric and NickG and Xylaria and Cobweb will all have a fair amount of it as well :D
Isn't bushcraft fun ? :approve:
Good point about the period, love the comment , "From Stone to Steel ", brilliant :cool:
cheers,
Toddy
gregorach
07-05-2009, 15:55
Did he not steal Lord Of The Rings, from the Vikings, or their myths, and legends.
Sure, Tolkien was, shall we say, "inspired" by a lot of Northern European mythology from the first millennium (not just the Vikings), but most of that stuff completely overlooks the day-to-day practicalities of life. Plus, he wasn't completely authentic - there's a good deal less gore in Tolkien than in any of his source material, for example.
Apprently he was a very good professor, and still considered to be one of the lead experts in his field.
He certainly was - but his field was linguistics and literature, not history or archaeology.
If you want to go as close to 55BC as poss, you will need to pick a people as well. Ceasar's had dealings with Celtic tribes
Don't get me started on the "C" word... ;)
What they would have taken (say Iron Age pre Roman invasion) would have been a horse, I can't think of them going far without one and if they didn't have one to start with they would have nicked one soon enough!
Ok thats not a very practical comment I know but it would explain why there was no specialised walking/travelling kit for us to copy. Most of the Celts possesions would have been light enough to be horse or chariot portable.
Now the Romans, now they knew how to travel on foot, old Marius' mules. If I had the spare cash I'd love one of the replica folding handle frying pan here
http://www.armamentaria.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=43&zenid=226184b78b2f4c0ae1df94f8 b433013b
Probably the squarish one.
I'm not sure how long the T shaped kit carrying poles continued in use or if they were a continuation of earlier civilian/non Roman practice but it may be a alternative to rigging a wooden framed pack which is what I have toyed with doing.
Roman sources refer to heavy woolen cloaks from Britain, I've always thought they would have been of something akin to Duffel coat material. Just the job for on stag at some mile fort on Hadrians wall.
Just my tupance worth.
ATB
Tom
Tolkien never really goes into the nasty low class practical side of things.
He never dares do anything as prole as call his elves `Nomads` (though that is what he implies, and of course real myth elves were pastoralists, and probably if you were to insist upon a real race the elves were based upon, it would be the Saami (yep, we get back to them) with the Basques a possible S Europe contender....but of course there must have been similar people in GB, though there seems to be no real cultural/linguistic/racial differentiation.)
Come to think of it, dont we have a Saami heritage here? a lot of our viking names are in actualy saami ones, and theres stories of witches (see, back to the magic again...I dont think Tolkiens elves would have had trouble with firelighting, somehow) who kept `deer` as draught animals or for milk.
If we looked at Norse history, and indeed as an extension, norse cultural influence in the world, from a saami view, I think it would seem a little different.
(And where did the Greenlanders get the story of the distant people who kept deer...a memory of siberia...or was some settler experimenting? A saami hunter would have been more use as a settler than some norse farmer, wouldnt they? (And note the settlers made `sewn` boats! like the saami did...I mean sewn like a dhow, not a coracle...) what do you think?)
Oh to be a Finn man, and live in reality and myth at the same time!
gregorach
08-05-2009, 10:45
Well, it's never really clear how anyone (other than the hobbits) produces food in Middle Earth. The Elves are a pretty mixed bunch - you've got 3 different varieties of Calaquendi (the Elves of the Light, who arrived in Valinor in the light of the Two Trees) who live in cities, then you've got the the Sindar, the Nandor, and the Silvan Elves (who turned aside from the Great Journey) and you've got the Avari (who even began the Great Journey). Of the Calaquendi, the Falmari are seafarers, the Noldor are craftsmen, and nobody really knows what the Vanyar got up to...
It's all rather complicated (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth)). ;)
Of all of them, only some of the Avari and a few of the Silvan Elves are anything like nomadic. The rest all live in permanent settlements of some kind or another. Presumably they have some kind of agriculture, probably roughly similar to what we'd now call original permaculture.
Oh, its more complex than that.
In `The History of Middle Earth` (12 volumes, you will need a mob of well trained hobbits to carry it) he states that though the Noldor (otherwise known as the `Troublemaking` elves) were city dwellers, they spent a lot of time in ranging round, prospecting for things to turn into other things.
So they must have been the original camping elves.
Lets not talk about Feanors great negotiating skills and shipcraft. (ok, he got where he wanted in the end, but that was more than luck than skill.) and the less fortunate Noldors ice crossing. (which killed a lot.)
As for what the Vanyar did, I bet it was a subject Tolkien never mentions much...religion.
gregorach
08-05-2009, 11:34
Oh yes, very complicated, but I didn't want to turn it into a thesis... ;) I don't actually have The History of Middle Earth, but I'm clearly going to have to pick it up some time.
As for the Noldor being the "original camping elves", what about when they first awoke beside Cuiviénen, or the various groups that split off from the Great Journey to explore Beleriand?
I think you're right about the Vanyar though... Signing the praises of Manwë and all that.
Wow, we've come a long way from the OP, haven't we? ;)
Actually, my interest in pre-Roman Britain was also originally sparked by Tolkien. I have to admit that the more I've studied the subject, the more disappointed I've become - the real world just isn't as rich as Tolkein's... :D
You must have some very dry books.
(Some of those pre war scholars went out of their way to be dull, I think.)
Some tomes for thee;
`Frozen echoes` by kirsten Seaver (Latest thoughts on Greenland)
`Science of Middle Earth` by Henry Gee
gregorach
08-05-2009, 11:50
Nah, it's just that real-world mythology is so prosaic compared to the massive sweep and grandeur of The Silmarillion. It's all so small by comparison - there's nothing that compares to, for example, the tale of Beren and Luthien. Even the full cycle of Andvari's Ring is pretty tame, and it's got the whole suite of accessories - dwarves, Gods, a cursed magical ring, enchanted maidens, dragon-slaying, the whole lot - yet it would have been just one chapter in The Silmarillion. (In fact, it pretty much is - the tale of Turin Turamabar bears some pretty major and obvious similarities. But it's got loads of other stuff as well.)
D'you think we might be over-geeking this now? Sorry everybody! ;) :)
I think there's a huge difference that we blithely ignore nowadays..........the original tales, sagas and origin myths were meant to be told. Carried in the mind and heart and recounted.
Tolkien 'wrote' a tale that like some great ravening beast ate up all tales.
To sit around a fire and listen to a good storyteller is so rare nowadays, in the past old tales were good friends revisited.
cheers,
Mary
gregorach
08-05-2009, 12:29
Yeah, you might have a point there Toddy. I've often wondered if it's possible to actually tell the tale of Beren and Luthien, but I always find myself in this kind of endless recursive loop where you have to keep backing up to explanations of who and what everything is and why they're doing what they do, which in turn requires further backing up and explanation, until you end up right back at the very beginning, having to explain the creation of Arda, then the whole business with Melkor / Morgoth, then the Elves, then the Silmarils, and after about a day and half you can actually start telling the tale you wanted to tell in the first place.
Of course, in "real" mythology, you've got the advantage that the listeners already know the background of the world it's set in...
I do know what you mean about "old tales were good friends revisited" though - I've lost count of how many times I've read The Silmarillion, in whole or in part. It really has become part of my own personal mythology. When I look up at the stars, the stories I remember about them are those told by the Elves. The Plough is really the Sickle of the Valar, hung there by Varda before the birth of the Sun and the Moon, as a warning and a sign of judgment. ;)
Still, Amazon is having a sale, so I've just lashed out on the Welsh Triads. We'll see how that goes...
And then there are those heretics amongst us who feel that reading Tolkien is time from our lives that we just wont be getting back :swordfigh I mean I love to read, I love to read books of that ilk, I even love reading books that most would find somewhat dry ( the Iliad say), but just please don't make me re-read any of that over inflated Dons tomes of tedium. Peter Jackson also has a lot to answer for with eleven hours and twenty one minutes of shear bum numbing boredom... OK you can :ban: but it had to be said lol. Goatboy.
gregorach
08-05-2009, 14:54
Well, it's not like anyone's going to come round your house with a copy of The Silmarillion and put a gun to your head, is it? Me, I hate football, but I don't interject into other people's football discussions just to say that. Do what you like - I don't mind. Life would be very dull indeed if we all liked the same things.
Hi Gregorach,
sorry wasn't meaning to be offensive, I was just popping what I thought was a light hearted view from the other side, but I do find folks very protective about Tolkien, and I don't doubt for a second that he's brought joy to many, all I was saying was not to me. Hey I don't like football either.
On the broader spectrum the fact that we like different kit and some like some things and some don't is why surely one of the reasons for these forums?
Sorry if I caused any offense, wasn't intended.
You're not gonna come 'round with the book though are you??? the gun I could take.
Cheers
Goatboy.
gregorach
08-05-2009, 15:08
No offence taken.
I'm glad, none was meant.
Read Tolkien back in the 60's, it just did not work for me:rolleyes:
sandbender
08-05-2009, 15:54
"...I've often wondered if it's possible to actually tell the tale of Beren and Luthien..."
I reckon this (http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/kochent/vision/beowulfopeninglines.wvx) guy might be able to give it a shot.
More here (http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/kochent/vision/beowulfgrendelsambush.wvx), here (http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/kochent/vision/beowulfguardagainstgrendel.wvx ) and here (http://www.britishdvdcollection.com/product.asp?item=741952644590) .
"Benjamin Bagby (co-founder and director of the Sequentia ensemble for medieval music), accompanying himself on an Anglo-Saxon harp, delivers this gripping tale (Beowulf) in the original Old English — as it could have been experienced more than 1000 years ago."
:D
gregorach
08-05-2009, 16:24
Beowulf is dead easy by comparison - it's pretty much self-contained. Beren and Luthien doesn't make much sense without the entire backstory... I'll need to have a proper watch of that at some point though, thanks. :)
Minotaur
09-05-2009, 13:30
He certainly was - but his field was linguistics and literature, not history or archaeology.
I thought his big thing was dead, or dying languges, and myths etc?
Don't get me started on the "C" word... ;)
Ceasar, or Celtic?
Actually, my interest in pre-Roman Britain was also originally sparked by Tolkien. I have to admit that the more I've studied the subject, the more disappointed I've become - the real world just isn't as rich as Tolkein's... :D
One of the big problems for me is that a lot of the history that I like, is actually myth. Really disappointing to find out that the little tale about whoever is made up.
Ref: Horses.
Think they were a big money item, and nothing like we have today. Pony might be more on the money. Celtic culture had a big thing for the horse, so they were there but in what sort of context I am not sure.
Poor people would have travelled by foot, and messengers as well. A trained human is so much better than a horse, unless you have a system like the pony express.
With the whole extended family and patronage system the Britons had I think any one needing to travel would have access to a horse unless it was part of a mass migration and there was a shortage. Travel away from your own village would have been a very rare event except for folk above a certain station, and even then it wouldn't happen very often.
The Celts were a society dependent of the horse and not having a horse, for ploughing, warfare and so on, would put you at the very bottom end of society. Very good horses would be a rare and high status thing to own, like having a sports car today while nearly all family groups would have the equivalent of a tractor come station wagon.
Here comes the classic excuse , its not my period, ;-{D) but what do you scholars reckon was the rate of horse ownership?
Just my thoughts,
ATB
Tom
Not high.
Horses are expensive beasts to provide for among a people who slaughtered a huge proportion of their herds every Winter because they couldn't feed them through it.
Feeding horses so that they are fit to ride means grain.
Most horses were more like large ponies and the animals that ploughed the land were bullocks.
Feeding cattle through Winter only really became viable when turnip and mangolds became crops. That and hay, but why grow hay if the land will support grain? Grain feeds people.
There are huge numbers of references to the hospitality offered to guests, and always there is the offer of water for washing of feet. People went afoot and when they didn't they and their goods went mostly by water.
Virtually no roads until the Romans came, and after they left those fell into disrepair. In Scotland there were few roads up until the aftermath of the '45 uprising, and the Industrial Revolution and the Improvements in Agriculture took hold.
The King's Highway was so called because it was on the dry high ground that was mostly passable all year round.
Horse = status/ expense.
cheers,
Toddy
oooooooooooooops opened a can of worms here
Tolkien is great - read the Silmarillion then Unfinished Tales then Hobbit or LOTR.
I did go for a walk this weekend and slept out with just a wool bedroll and a fire. it was lush
no pics sorry
Faugh! To the Void with you!
Read the Silmarillion, then the Unfinished Tales and ditch the rest.
(Scholars are permitted to read `The History of Middle Earth` but only using a torch under the bedcovers.)
gregorach
12-05-2009, 10:13
Don't get me started on the "C" word... ;)
Ceasar, or Celtic?
"Celtic"... A horribly mangled and abused term. It's OK as long as you're clear about what you mean by it, but a lot of people use it to refer to a completely imaginary culture, or are led to suppose that all of the cultures we now call "Celtic" thought of themselves as such, or some other rubbish. Rarely has a single term hidden so much confusion. Personally, I prefer to use it only to refer to those cultures which spoke languages from the Celtic language group, but I guess that's a losing battle...
Heck, most people don't even bother to distinguish the late-BC Belgic culture in southern England from the rest of the Britons.
As for Tolkein, my recommendation would be to read the Silmarillion, then the Silmarillion again... ;) Once you've read it half a dozen times or so, read any of the others you fancy. I still haven't gotten around to The Children of Húrin...
Yeah, theres something fishy about JRRT; Hes supposed to be 30+ years dead yet hes still writing....
There are `pictures` in The Children of Hurin...(isnt there an illustrated Silmarillion??)
You know that LOTR is fiction, made up not true. a tall tale of daring doo. (that been said I worked for a time in the in Sandyman mill on the North bank of the Water in Hobbiton. )
I've worked in a Primary school up the Clyde valley from me called "Underbank Primary" :D
Lovely place :cool:
cheers,
M
But the theoretical Philology is real.
harryhaller
12-05-2009, 13:21
Here's an interesting documentary.
The Primitive Celts (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=57386739828276 73282)
.. and some more from the same series about that era:
The Brainy Barbarians (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2314754515478789154&hl=e)
The Hidden History of Rome (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=24585220293189 30763)
the savage goths (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7645371349904350581)
The End of The World (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=39985709066913 47151)
gregorach
12-05-2009, 13:53
Ah, good old Terry Jones. It's only fair he should redress the balance, after that (in)famous "What have the Romans ever done for us?" line... ;)
Seriously though, he's done some great stuff on first millennium history. Still a bit too imprecise on his use of the term "Celt" for my liking, but I guess that's just my bugaboo.
Ah, good old Terry Jones. It's only fair he should redress the balance, after that (in)famous "What have the Romans ever done for us?" line... ;)
Seriously though, he's done some great stuff on first millennium history. Still a bit too imprecise on his use of the term "Celt" for my liking, but I guess that's just my bugaboo.
i'm sure we would have done fine as a nation if the romans hadn't have turned up. no?
gregorach
12-05-2009, 14:10
Absolutely. Me, I'm of the opinion that the Romans didn't invent anything except bureaucracy, and slaughter as mass entertainment (OK, there was hydraulic concrete and a few luxuries that were only available to a very small segment of the population such as central heating). All of the good ideas came from other people they conquered - and most of them would have come up with even better ideas if they'd been left alone.
All of the good ideas came from other people they conquered
what like Christianity?
gregorach
12-05-2009, 14:30
Lets not get started on that...
Lets not get started on that...
i know i thought i would just throw a spanner in fro the sake of it.
Some of you guys need to get out more (says the habitual re-enactor)
Nietzsche said 'Stare into the Abyss long enough and the Abyss will stare back"
Cheers
Nick
gregorach
12-05-2009, 16:33
Hey, it's not like we dress up as Elves in our spare time... ;) (At least, I don't. I can't speak for anybody else.)
John Fenna
12-05-2009, 16:36
Check out my avatar.....and that does not even have my cloak or wool trousers in it! All part of my bushy gear....
There are some sad folk around - warm, comfy but sad in this world if Ti Sporks.....:D
Check out my avatar.....and that does not even have my cloak or wool trousers in it! All part of my bushy gear....
There are some sad folk around - warm, comfy but sad in this world if Ti Sporks.....:D
John
Nobody would mistake you for an elf - whatever you wore
Yer safe mate
Cheers
Nick
John Fenna
12-05-2009, 19:08
Wot you sayin'....
I am a Giant among lesser men
An Elf amongst the lumpen
A Fairy amongst the Panto crowd
An Artist among the purblind
A Poet amongst the illiterate
And underweight amongst the obese.....
John Fenna
12-05-2009, 20:14
Wot you sayin'....
I am a Giant among lesser men
An Elf amongst the lumpen
A Fairy amongst the Panto crowd
An Artist among the purblind
A Poet amongst the illiterate
And underweight amongst the obese.....
but only on those comparissons!
Back to the clothing
I have been making much of my own kit and it seems to have come out fairly "elven"
Woolen smock, woolen hoody, woolen trousers - all from blankets - a cloak blanket and pin, leather pouches and belts...all trying to use natural materials, mainly recycled, to give a low impact on the environment.
I also have much modern kit - but that gets less usage these days!
squantrill
13-05-2009, 21:57
Early britons...
I rekon they all wore some sort of kilt not the small kilt we think of today but the great kilt. It was wrapped over the shoulder when walking and used as a blanket when sleeping next to a fire.
http://www.theweebsite.com/greatkilt/index.html
I know in east anglia the iceni wore black and yellow kilts, britons were of course at one time or another celtic all being pushed to the wests of the countries wales cornwall galatia brittany and they all still wear the kilt!
Simon
Ancient Britons never hit on
Anything as good as woad to fit on.......
One of the few songs in a key that I can actually hit. :D
There is a huge divide between history and the idea of history.
The old saying goes that "history is written by the victors" and it's true that history has always been a political tool but it is also a cultural tool as well.
If I go into a primary school and talk about Iron Age cultural exchange between Romanised Auxiliary forces in Wessex, I'm going to be looking at 60 blank faced 8 year olds.
If I stomp around as a Roman Centurian and oppress a "Celt" or two, but then demonstrate that they actually got a good deal out of co-operation, then I might teach them something about what really happened 2000 years ago.
It might also fire them with some enthusiasm about history which leads them to a closer interpretation in the future.
Sometimes it is necessary to simplify a complex issue to allow people new to a subject examine it. That is one of the things that I have to do daily to engage young minds in a topic that many of them thought was boring.
It's like learning Newtonian physics as a stepping stone towards Einstein and beyond.
Really shouldn't try to put forward a detailed argument after a bottle and a half of wine. http://www.wayland.me.uk/assets/images/drinking-51.gif
gregorach
14-05-2009, 09:40
Early britons...
I rekon they all wore some sort of kilt not the small kilt we think of today but the great kilt. It was wrapped over the shoulder when walking and used as a blanket when sleeping next to a fire.
http://www.theweebsite.com/greatkilt/index.html
I know in east anglia the iceni wore black and yellow kilts, britons were of course at one time or another celtic all being pushed to the wests of the countries wales cornwall galatia brittany and they all still wear the kilt!
Simon
Interesting... The last time the Great Kilt came up in discussions, the impression I got was that there was no evidence for its use (in Scotland at least) prior to the 16th C. I know there are many representations of armed men in carvings from the first millennium, and none of them feature kilts that I can recall...
Can I ask what your source is for the Iceni wearing black and yellow kilts?