View Full Version : Bushcraft or Survival? The[b] Question[/b]
As someone who has been trained in both military survival skills and civilian bushcraft skills I find the dividing line between Bushcraft and Survival very vague.
Indeed to my mind both are feathers off the same bird but I have noticed that instructors in one or the other subject seem to only sing the praises of their choosen field.
So at the risk of opened a can of worms let me ask you this question,
Whats is the difference between Bushcraft and Survival and which is better?
thrillpower
10-05-2003, 11:01
Interesting question. :roll:
My thoughts: Bushcraft is an art. Skills are attained by study, practise and observation of it's principles and methods. Survival is a process which applies those skills to achieve an end result. I believe neither discipline is better, rather they are like brothers with slightly different outlooks.
Bushcraft encompasses Survival. Bushcraft is a life long journey and part of the journey is learning survival skills. Just doing survival is like stopping at the first village and settling there, never to complete the journey and missing out on so much more.
Surviving is the bit we have to do, being out and enjoying yourself knowing that you can cope with situations that occur is what we want to do.
I agree bushcraft does encompass survivla but then survival skills also encompass bushcraft.
I'm not nit picking and I dont think any answer will ever be wrong or right I'm just curious to see how people view the subject and why they see it in those terms.
A canadian friend who visited this site mailed me her definition - which I concider to be one of the best I've heard.
'Bushcraft is more than learning how to survive in the wilderness. It takes you one step further and teaches you not only how to survive, but how to appreciate and learn from the wilderness around you. The skills taught are not new and dont require the latest gadgets from your local store but have been used for hundreds of years or longer by our ancestors when survival wasnt a weekend trip but a day to day struggle.
The word survival has a rather negative connotion to it. Just hearing it makes you think of deprivation, depression and unbeatable odds. Attitude is everything and survival could lead you to think that the wilderness should be feared and, if it cant be beaten, then at best it is a thing to be endured.
"Bushcraft" is not a negative word - it is essentially learning the crafts of the bush. The more you learn about nature and how to operate as a part of if rather than outside it, the more comfortable you will become. Our ancestors knew this but we forgot, relearning their skills will help you get back in touch with nature.'
That was her reply and a damned good stab at answering the question.
Gary.
Thanks for the compliment Gary.
And thanks for not calling me an "OLD Canadian"
:D
Your not an 'old Canadian' - I got a few years on you, remember! And I'm about to add another - roll on Saturday!
woodworm
14-06-2003, 20:16
I think that survival and bushcraft in many ways are one and the same, I just think that bushcraft incorporates more into it. When it comes to survival you will use the same skills to survive as you would in bushcraft. I think that survival just brings up images of POW’s having to stay covert at the same time as surviving and getting back home. I think that we need to remind ourselves that the survival we are likely to come across or experience is going to be lack of water, hypothermia, lack of food, lack of shelter etc. In this scenario we are all in the same boat no matter what sort of person you think you are, a survivalist or a bushcrafter, it means squat when it comes to the crunch, the bottom line is that the best skills are the best skills and should be the ones learnt to handle that situation. One thing that bushcraft does give us is the skills to live comfortably in the wilds, I think it gives us the edge, instead of just surviving we con often use what we know to raise ourselves above this level, not always, but more often than the average wilderness wanderer!
I'm in agreement - I think Bushcraft, woodsmanship and survival are all feahters on the same cap too.
But how do you (anybody) feel about the fact that Bushcraft prescribes we carry and Axe and a Knife, as well as this that and the other, while survival skills say carry a tiny tobacco tin to live out off?
I have developed and cross over technique which bridges the two and it works really well - hopefully I can start teaching it soon too.
woodworm
15-06-2003, 09:21
If it comes to the crunch we can get on with a tobacco tin full of kit just as we can a full sized knife and an axe. The knife and axe are tools, the survival tin is full of tools, we just need to be able to adapt to all the tools available and remember that we also have the tools that nature provides for us and that's where the skills start to really make themselves evident.
A survivalist will not just take a small tin out of choice, he only dips into it when he needs to, as a rule he will kit himself out as much as possible with hardware and food, the bushcrafter will take what he needs to to help him get what he needs from the environment. Both choices are alike, and they are both backed up with skill, I do think that in many ways it is just the connotations associated with the names that create a difference.....there are extremes found in all attitudes and people, often it is just the names they call themselves that differentiates them.
Hi All,
bushcraft tends to start with survival training and then progress further......maybe further is the wrong word, maybe bushcraft just tends to go much broader than survival. But as I said, we all start with survival.
H
Anonymous
01-09-2003, 10:21
hjrd
Anonymous
01-09-2003, 10:28
........and there I was thinking the difference between bushcraft and survival was a matter of choice. If you are in a situtation you don't want to be in (i.e. air crash in the Rockies or shot down in a Tornado in Iraq) it would be classed as survival, but if you decided you wanted to go out alone in the Rockies or the desert, it would be bushcraft. Apart from the escape and evaision sort of thing the two are the same. It's a bit like calling Galium Aparine by its common names like Goose Grass or Cleavers. Same name, different plant depending as to where you come from.
choice comes into it, certainly. survival suggests a harsher, more brutally pragmatic approach. the bushcraft, perhaps a bit mellower.
an example of this presented itself in microcosm 'round the campfire the weekend. two pot hangers, one looking like a prime photo from a ray mears book, fully adjustable, very stylish. the other a stick stuck in the dirt propped up on a forked branch. the first took nearly 3/4 of an hour to craft, the second was knocked up in 90 seconds.
so, i had pot hanger envy there for a while. :wink: :twisted: :lol: i'll get over it...
cheers, and.
Anonymous
12-09-2003, 00:08
Matter of choice, maybe? When I think of survival the word conjure's up the image of a person who is trying to maintain their life until such time as they are either rescued or can make their way back to civilisation. Their main objective being to escape the 'harsh' wilderness to the comfort of 'normal' life. - Survival, by definition is 'Not Dying'
:wink:
When I think of widerness bushcraft I see people who wish to escape 'normal' life and travel through or enter into wilderness (for whatever reasons), armed with the high skill level needed to safely and comfortably travel through the bush. Drawing from the knowledge of indigenous culture's who successfully live from the land.
Life is survival.
But, in this context I see survivalists as those who chose to train, equip and prepare themselves in such a way, that should they encounter extreme hardship through an act of fate, they will be able to endure and survive. Though I think the process of training, equiping and preparing themselves, becomes enjoyable for many, it still isn't the purpose of it.
On the other hand, I see bushcraft as an art, a way of living that someone chooses to learn, not in preparation for some unforseen hardship, but as an exercise in itself. A way of appreciating the crafts and skills needed to live with the environment.
Both the 90 second pot hanger and the 3/4 hour pot hanger, get the job done - true, but one is a means to an end, the other is the end.
Whoa, deep man - far out. ;) :D :D
I was talking to Jonny Crocket of Survival School the other day and he said something quite pertinent. I cannot remember his exact words but it has left me with the thoughts that When we are in a situation we chose to be we are practicing bushcraft, when we are in a situation forced on us we are practicing survival. I know that there are exceptions to this and there are some hard core people at either end of the spectrum. But this can be a useful definition.
Anonymous
12-09-2003, 11:09
Yes, I quite agree Martyn, but I think that although a lot of people practice bushcraft as an exercise in its self, it does have a more serious side. Nature always throws 'unforseen circumstances' at you if you spend enough time out there! When I travel in the bush, I do so in the knowladge that unforsen circumstances often lie ahead, and in these circunstances, it is my knowladge of the landscape and how to utilise it best, ie, bushcraft that serves me best. Although survivalists train, ie. the military, it is the bare bones needed to keep yourself alive, often relying heavily on equiptment. Military survival training, I understand to be very basic, especially compared to the life long study of bushcraft.
I think Ray Mears saying ' A step Beyond Survival' sums it up.
As for the pot hanger, The guy who took his time to make his pot hanger, did so because he HAD the time and enjoys the craft, I'm sure if he was under pressure, he could have stuck a stick in the ground! BUT could the other guy have made a decent pot hanger? :shock:
Question is Sargey did they both do the job?
Economy of effort is a skill too.
gary, you got it exactly. it seems i left part of my explanation out of that last post. a large part of surviving is all about counting calories, calories spent for calories gained.
how about , "bushcraft is the persuance of a craft for art's sake, survival is the persuance of calories for life's sake" or some thing equally bound up in mutlisyllabic terminology.
i don't think that any nature loving bushcrafter would consider using an excruciating leg hold snare on a deer, just so you can get close enough to bludgeon it to death. but to the "brutally pragmatic" survivor it sounds like lunch. :shock:
cheers, and.
BUT could the other guy have made a decent pot hanger?
yeah...
could've...
if i'd wanted too... :roll: :wink: :lol:
as it happened i didn't need a proper pot hanger, my mate made a cracking good'un, so i used his!
the other main difference was one was knocked up for a quick brew between lectures at the gathering, the other was constructed as part of a leisurely evening meal.
cheers, and.
I was talking to Jonny Crocket of Survival School the other day and he said something quite pertinent. I cannot remember his exact words but it has left me with the thoughts that When we are in a situation we chose to be we are practicing bushcraft, when we are in a situation forced on us we are practicing survival.......
I think Jonny Crocket has sort of hit the nail on the head. One you do because you enjoy it and want to learn from it, the other you do because you have to.
You could say that with bushcraft you know how long you will be there for and can plan accordingly, with Survival in it's truest sense,you don't. They are basically using very similar skills and drawing on the same knowledge. But is there a point where Survival becomes Bushcraft?....once you have put into practice the skills you have learnt to initially maintain your life, find food and water supplies etc...... when you then proceed to preserve those resources, make the existence more comfortable, and you continue to learn from your surroundings and adapt to become part of them for the duration of your stay?
Dunno, sounds a bit deep doesn't it? :shock:
Survival or Bushcraft, both comes from primitive technology. Gather food and water, buildning shelter, making tools. For a couple of 100 years ago there were no chainsaws and people used axes a lot. Back then you had to know have to use tools like an axe and knife. They also had to know what you could use to make tools and to find food. Back then you didn´t go buy a knew knife you made one.
Today people grow up in big cities and never spend time in nature, never see what it can give you. Thats why we today have something called survival, it´s alla about old technique´s. Because people do not longer know how to find food or water or how to build a simple shelter or maybe make simple fire. These old techiques has to be learned. But survival is also a lot about the will to survive.
Bushcraft on the other is something that make´s some people live thru the day. They still live as they have don for 100´s of years. Even here in sweden poeple in lapland still makes many of their tools and clothes and still hunt like they always has. Then there´s people like me who enjoy´s being out in the woods using old techniques, make a fire or a shelter or carve a spoon. It´s also a way of life, living close to nature see how the seasons change it, see the animals that live in it.
But to sum it all up both survival and bushcraft is all about primitive technoligies. How to live with nature and not using modern technology.
mine deffinition is survival=survival, things that you do to survive in a survival situation. training for it is survival training in mine definition, some kind of insurance.
bushcraft is almost the same, but instead of nessacity or "just in case" we do it for fun ! that also make's you go deeper, like the rest already said.
bushwacker bob
28-11-2003, 21:26
To chuck an irrelevant log on the fire, how did 'bushcraft' get its name? When I was a kid my father, who taught me the basics,refered to the subject as "fieldcraft" He was at one time the Big game hunter for the Tanganika railway construction and responsible for feeding 2000 workers with what he could hunt or gather locally.The subject is still called fieldcraft by the scouts association.
Have a look at the thread here http://www.bushcraftuk.co.uk/community/viewtopic.php?t=19
That should answer your question.
Ed
Bob,
I have asked the same question. In south africa, in the army and the large hunting schools, to name a few, it is normally termed Fieldcraft - Bushcraft seems to have become popular in recent years with people drawing heavily upon American influences. This is to be expected as suppose as the leaders in the industry were all trained in america or canada initially and lets no forget the power of the written word - most books on the subject come across the pond.
Being in the process of setting up my own business I had considered using Fieldcraft in the name but unfortunately like the hamburger, obessity and sueing Bushcraft has become the norm and so I too will use the term.
Bushcraft seems to have become popular in recent years with people drawing heavily upon American influences.
Maybe this terms is common in Canada, I dunno. I know the term is rarely used in the "lower 48" states and other than Kochanski, I don't know any writers in NA who use this term with any regularity.
Your right HOODOO - my mistake, he term is used a lot in Canada and is very common in Alaska hence my leaning to american influences (sorry to any canadian's for the generalisation.)
Incidentially what would be the common term in the 'lower 48's then?
Until recently, woodcraft was the most popular term and folks who were good at it were often called woodsmen (or woodswomen). The name probably more common today is outdoorsman, which is more generic and may be applied to folks skilled in the old woodcraft ways or they are known as avid hunters, fishermen, or canoeists, etc. Sometimes the term "sportsmen" is used specifically for the hook and bullet crowd. The modern backpackers are so techno-gear driven that they have little linkage to the old style of camping and woodcraft and are just referred to as backpackers or more recently trekkers.
If you look at some of the classic books, you can see what I mean:
Woodcraft by Nessmuk
Camping and Woodcraft by Kephart
The Book of Woodcraft by Ernest Thompson Seton
Gary's original post asked:
Whats is the difference between Bushcraft and Survival and which is better?
the dictionary states BUSH (in part) as:
woodland,uncleared country,backwoods
and CRAFT as:
skill,ability,manual ability
SURVIVE as:
come alive through
I think therefore, that the term survival,from a purely outdoors situation without other complications such as a plane crash, or severe injuries etc, is to understand and learn about how to overcome mother nature's elements when the situation is against you.The ability to build a snow shelter when one is caught out suddenly by a blizzard for example, springs to mind.Once the worse is over the skill of 'bushcraft' comes into it's own.
To take part of HOODOO's comment:
The name probably more common today is outdoorsman, which is more generic and may be applied to folks skilled in the old woodcraft ways or they are known as avid hunters, fishermen, or canoeists, etc.:
Outdoors man,being generic would probably be a good term to use if it could be used to solely define someone who is at one with nature and the elements.Even someone who lives in a city for example, but is capable of living and surviving in the wild using no modern equipment.
To answer gary's question therefore "which is better?" I would say Bushcraft, as it more closely associates the aims and abilities of this group.
However, what about the introduction of a new term to describe someone learning to or already capable of being at one with nature and the elements?
it seems almost an odd question to ask, a bit of a moot point. but as a couple of people have pointed out, there seem to be a few negative connotations associated with "survival". perhaps a few folks would like to see themselves and/or the "bushcraft" movement as it might be, disassociated with the "survivalist" ideal. :shock: but where does one end and the other begin?
to my mind, "survival" or survivalism is a much bigger field than simply wilderness skills, surviving a shipwreck or plane crash. the other term synonymous with this is preparedness, aren't the boy scouts supposed to "be prepared"? yes you've got the camo clad "grab your guns and run for the hills" brand of survivalism. try a search for frugal squirrel and you'll find 'em. then you've got the self sufficient crowd, homesteaders and the like. remember that TV program the good life? then you move down the scale to simply having a bugout bag or a bag with a change of clothes and a few insurance documents. maybe some people just have a few candles, some stored water and a few extra tins of food round the place. perhaps you could include the combatives crowd, those concerned with surviving the commute to work, through the tube stations and poorly lit car parks of the big cities.
it boils down to real world survival, and fantasy survival. perhaps there is a little grain in all of us that would like to be shipwrecked on a desert island, with just enough kit to make it challenging, but not too austere. for real world survival, we'd be better off doing a first aid course and a self defense course, and make sure the spare tyre in the car is ok, along with a torch and a first aid kit an so on.
so it seems to me that bushcraft is just one small aspect of survival. it's a great hobby, whatever you call it. survival, bushcraft, fieldcaft, wilderness skills, earth skills.... i don't think you can say that one is less or more.
just my .02 as they say.
btw gary, bearclaw bushcraft sounds cool. 8-)
cheers, and.
Cheers sargey - still not sure if I'll stay with that name though. Especailly as one of the areas I want to cover is SURVIVAL KITS.
And Mac - what, pray tell, would be this new term?
God only knows!
Um!..now there's a thought! maybe he does know! !.........."look what i have created",he may say.
I know!......How about earthman! :rolmao:
Sea survival, urban survival, rescue beacons and so on is survival. It´s something that make you survive a situation like a plane crash. Bushcraft is about being in the woods and carving spoons and buildning shelters, but then wilderness survival is the same thing as bushcraft. So then bushcraft should be a part of survial.
The diffrense is were are you gonna survive?
Just my little thougts...
i dont care what i call it. i just do what i like. though i never feel that suvival includes making all these spoons
larry the spark
25-01-2004, 18:53
I moved this from another thread so apologies for reviving an old one but it might of interest.
I guess the whole survival/bushcraft can be looked at both ways. There is a school of thought, endorsed by Ray Mears whose interpretation of Bushcraft is not only for temperate woodland type areas, but rather a more global appraoch to learning indiginous skills. I read an interview with Ray some time ago of which I have copied and pasted a small portion below.
'Ray Mears:
If you like, the shorthand of bushcraft - ‘survival’ - is a foundation on which we grow. We build on top of that. Bushcraft is a study that has many disciplines within it. If you imagine a wheel, the hub of the wheel is the survival skills - the life support, if you like - but coming off that are many spokes. One spoke may be botany, another may be mycology, another may be anthropology, to use our terms for them. I’m very anti pigeon-holing it, using these terms that already exist. I think that if someone’s interested in anthropology, they don’t necessarily need to follow existing doctrines in their interest. It’s important for them to find their own. I’ve very often worked with anthropologists who have missed obvious things because they don’t know the bushcraft of their home country. Because they haven’t learnt the bushcraft of Britain, when they go overseas it’s difficult for them to understand what is unique about what they’re seeing. They’re sometimes wowed by something that could be seen in a coppice wood in Hampshire. The unified hub of the wheel is a love and interest in nature, because the wheel won’t run without the hub, and nature supports everything. It locks everything together. The individual who wants to travel using bushcraft skills must take an interest in preserving things that they are relying upon. So, you understand, nature and bushcraft go together.'
The whole interview can be found here
http://www.travelleronline.com/travel_talk/chatraymears.shtml
i dont care what i call it. i just do what i like. though i never feel that suvival includes making all these spoons
:biggthump :You_Rock_
It seems to me that there are bushcraft skills, some of which are also survival skills and there are survival skills, some of which are bushcraft skills. In other words, the set of skills overlap (intersect?) yet are distinct.
Which is no surprise given that their purposes are different
Justin Time
26-01-2004, 08:35
Interesting snippet from that Ray Mears interview:
"You don’t have a badge that says ‘bushcraft’ "...........
Justin
He hasn't seen the badge being designed here! :-D :lol:
Interesting snippet from that Ray Mears interview:
"You don’t have a badge that says ‘bushcraft’ "...........
Justin
Bush Craft = summit people choose do who want to go into or live in the wild
Survival = summit people Have to Do to Get out of the Wild
TheViking
09-07-2004, 20:25
Hi...
I think bushcraft is about living in the wild.
Survival is about just staying alive.
When you bushcraft, you live out there..... comfortably! (Though some 'citypeople' would never connect this word with being outdoors, at all... I know some people who says: "ARGH! An ant", even if there is a distance of 4 feet between them) I don't bother laying in a few ants or slugs or you name it. They can't and they will not harm you! (not the small ones that I know of) :biggthump
Surely survival is a specialist 'subset' of bushcraft? Perhaps the 'minimalist' arm of bushcraft?
I think the answer to the question of which one is best is 'neither'. All depends on your situation.....
TheViking
12-07-2004, 21:09
Like said before: the survivalist does not choose to be 'stuck' in the wild, neither do the bushcrafter. The bushcrafter chooses to walk into the wild and practice skills that can make life more comfortable in the bush. He/she is a volunteer of the woods and know where he/she wants to go.
The ones who ends up in a survival situation, is often people who doesn't have a clue on what they're doing or where they're going. I think that the group of people who ends most up in a survival situations is hunters, hikers, anglers and so on. Because they are out, doing something that sometimes implies a risk. Citypeople can end up there too, and I think most of them who does, goes in panic and panic kills...! :wink: If a person who is interested in bushcraft (like us here at BCUK) ends up in a survival situation, I think most of us would be calm and cool and use our known techniques to live with nature. (If you know how to build proper shelter, find and purify water, and make fire without matches, you will live for at least 3 weeks.!) But it will always be on the terms of nature! :wink: :-)
Surely survival is a specialist 'subset' of bushcraft? Perhaps the 'minimalist' arm of bushcraft?
i tend to think of it the other way round, what is bushcraft without bushes? you can do survival anywhere.....
:o):
cheers, and.
Sorry folks, I cannot see a great deal of difference between the two on the skills side of life (unless you take into account the military side of life).
The major subset of skills are the same (the ability to forage, start fire, build shelter and collect safe water for consumption). In the end food warmth and shelter protect against wind, wet and cold.
The thing that does make the difference is the situation, survival (the perpetuation of life), the chances of having the kit that you have with bushcraft is very unlikely or the specific piece of kit that you require you have not got.
The psychological impact of a survival situation is different, in survival situations (both military and civilian) the end goal is the same, retrieval and to stay alive, even if the means of attaining that goal are different.
One thing to note, civilian survival situations (the unexpexted type) you would not give a damn about the enviroment, military you would as this provides groundsign where you can be tracked.
Bushcraft is enviromentally friendly. What seperates survival from bushcraft really is the situation alone (once again unless in the military and then there are a few more rules to learn).
One could be classed as a necessity and the other a need, but there is a huge grey area where you would be hard pressed to tell the difference (the aborignal tribes practice bushcraft to survive).
It is a point of view and could be debated for years, but when you are out there practising your bushcraft skills, quickly think about whether those same skills may be being taught to someone just in case they need to survive using them as a way of life. :-)
I think bushcraft is about living in the wild.
Survival is about just staying alive.
I think this pretty much sums it up. In a Bushcraft venture, you will bring a minimum of tools needed (preferably, some people take all the tools they can find ;) and pretty much make sure your stay is closer to camping than survival.
In a survival situation you do not have the luxury of selecting your tools, location or even duration of the stay so it becomes more applied bushcraft with improvisation.
Imho, Bushcraft & Survival training are very similar. In fact, the skills you learn while doing bushcraft is essentially survival skills only put in a slightly different way. Bushcrafting is a lot about problemsolving, where is the best site for setting up camp, if i do not have a tool to do A, how can i build the tool needed. Survival training is essentially the same, but distilled. In a bushcraft approach, you will train the basics of making a fire, how to use tinder, kindling, gradually building up a fire. This is then distilled for survival training into how to get flame without using matches/lighter/fire-rod etc. In bushcraft you learn how to build a good sturdy shelter that you could live pretty well in for weeks, and this encompasses selection of place, the basic structure of shelters, rain/water issues, etc. In Survival this is distilled into being able to improvise a shelter without tools using only the knowledge of how a shelter should work and materials that can be found on site.
So in the end, Survival is a subset of Bushcraft. Without the knowledge of Bushcraft, Survival becomes to heavily emphasised on survival gear which imho is a big mistake since you will most likely not have that gear when you do need it :)
This is MY personal opinion though.
lardbloke
08-08-2005, 10:32
There is one element I have not read in here yet regarding bushcraft/fieldcraft and that is the appreciation with nature itself. In bushcraft if you remove part of a tree for your own use i.e a green branch, then the tree should be appreciated and removed in such a manner that new growth can be generated. Whilst in a survival situation you would not really care about the tree and just remove the branch by any means necessary for your use. I remember learning survival skills that obviously overlap into what now is termed 'Bushcraft' but do not recall that much regarding appreciating nature itself. In survival it is considered a tool to keep you alive and get you out of the present situation, whilst bushcraft should have you examining the aesthetic qualities of nature itself that live long side survival techniques.
For me - the difference between survival and bushcraft is the way you treat the environment you live in.
Most people stranded in a jungle would practice survival - i.e doing whatever it takes to stay alive.
Most indigenous people in the same jungle would be closer to bushcraft - they too are surviving, but not to the detriment of the environment in which they live - it is more of a symbiotic or a neutral relationship.
Some bushcraft practitioners have been known to take the approach that when you can't survive in the environment without in some way damaging it, or being parasitic, you don't have a right to survive there at all. I suspect that survival experts would not hold so closely to this view...
Firewyre
08-08-2005, 14:04
I think -
Survival uses any means possible to achieve a basic level of living quality.
Whether that is the bushcraft-like skills of skinning a rabbit, or lighting a fire, or whether it's barter in a foreign land, or possibly building man-traps if you're stuck in an extreme 'behind enemy lines' situation.
You can't learn survival - you 'do' survival only when you have to. But you can learn bushcraft skills and many of those skills could prove useful in a survival situation.
Imo ;)
RovingArcher
08-08-2005, 17:54
Survival is one's ability to successfully continue existence on a day to day basis, no matter what the situation or circumstances. Bushcraft covers one part of our daily survival in certain situations. Just like the abilities to read, write, use a computer, drive a vehicle, dig a ditch, lay pipe, etc., cover other areas of our lives.
i.e. The groups survival depended entirely on their knowledge and abilities learned while practicing bushcraft, a favorite outdoors activity, which encompasses the many skills that are essential for day to day living in the natural world.
Or, the groups ability to survive Prof. Dentons class depended entirely on their ability to manipulate the laws of physics.
Or, if you want to keep your job (survive), you need to cut your hair, shave your beard and sell all your knives! :eek: :D
Abbe Osram
08-08-2005, 17:59
My believe is that Bushcraft and Survival are different things for the same type of animal. The little story I found explains it better than I can.
THE BLIND MEN AND THE ELEPHANT - a Story from the Buddhist Sutra
Several citizens ran into a hot argument about God and different religions, and each one could not agree to a common answer. So they came to the Lord Buddha to find out what exactly God looks like.
The Buddha asked his disciples to get a large magnificent elephant and four blind men. He then brought the four blind to the elephant and told them to find out what the elephant would "look" like.
The first blind men touched the elephant leg and reported that it "looked" like a pillar. The second blind man touched the elephant tummy and said that an elephant was a wall. The third blind man touched the elephant ear and said that it was a piece of cloth. The fourth blind man hold on to the tail and described the elephant as a piece of rope. And all of them ran into a hot argument about the "appearance" of an elephant.
The Buddha asked the citizens: "Each blind man had touched the elephant but each of them gives a different description of the animal. Which answer is right?"
"All of them are right," was the reply.
"Why? Because everyone can only see part of the elephant. They are not able to see the whole animal. The same applies to God and to religions. No one will see Him completely." By this parable, the Lord Buddha teaches that we should respect all other ligitimate religions and their beliefs.
cheers
Abbe
can i take a little bite of this thread. Survival in the primitive sense is similar to what is going on in Africa at present with families just trying to bring another generation to fruition without their children dieing. When your country/landscape is in a better state or there is more food then you can practice your craft. With which you may be better able to stave off starvation in the future. Therefor the two are very closely linked .Perhaps one even not being able to operate without the other ....symbiotic? :rolleyes:
bambodoggy
08-08-2005, 20:53
can i take a little bite of this thread. Survival in the primitive sense is similar to what is going on in Africa at present with families just trying to bring another generation to fruition without their children dieing. When your country/landscape is in a better state or there is more food then you can practice your craft. With which you may be better able to stave off starvation in the future. Therefor the two are very closely linked .Perhaps one even not being able to operate without the other ....symbiotic? :rolleyes:
What's going on in Africa has little to do with bushcraft or survival, it has to do with greed and ignorance.
The San bushmen would be quite able to survive if they and their lands were left alone.
The people would be able to eat if the governments of those countries did more to help and less to line their own pockets.
Lets leave politics out of bushcraft shall we. I can just about see the point you're making but you don't need to make me feel guilty for living in the wicked west and therefore able to afford to practice my hobby. I know how lucky I am thanks!
Bam.
Folks may we please try and keep this on track without going political, I know there is such a small border on these things, but we have to try and stay away from politics.
PLEASE :o :o
a vehement reply from bam, when i did not even think of politics perhaps i should have used another similie?? The closest thing that i could think of was Africa as it links our culture with enormous skills of which we as westerners have probably only grazed the surface of... and that goes for the other wilderness dwellers be they Eskimo or Russian or south American. And me getting a bolloking!!! Thousands of apologies. Perhaps living and working in the woods gives me a very innocent outlook on life???The last thing that i would want to do is belittle anybody or make them feel guilty for practicing bushcraft which is a very important part of my lifestyle too. I am only trying to make what i hoped was a useful comment. :D
Spacemonkey
09-08-2005, 00:15
I would say the difference is that Survival was an 80's thing with big Rambo style knives, cammo clothing and orange plastic bivvy bags, and Bushcraft is a 21st century thing with designer, hand made knives, Swanndri woolies and hammocks.... ;)
I would say the difference is that Survival was an 80's thing with big Rambo style knives, cammo clothing and orange plastic bivvy bags, and Bushcraft is a 21st century thing with designer, hand made knives, Swanndri woolies and hammocks.... ;)
You forgot to mention titanium pots and pans.
i can't really see the need to add a label to everything. if i'm enjoying a comfy jolly one weekend looking at nature. i am enjoying bushcraft. If i am trapped in an artic storm freezing my backside off breaking my last shoe lace to create fire then i am surviving. so whats in a name it's the activity and skills employed thats important. i enjoy the nature awareness side of bushcraft and i enjoy the more tactical style of survival.
there is no right or wrong approach as long as its not damaging to people or the environment.
Anyway what is bushcraft? i have a friend that somes it up as 1950's camping,
Do we just give activities fancy names to justify to ourselves, what we are really doing is just play.
Do we just give activities fancy names to justify to ourselves, what we are really doing is just play.
And may we never grow up =)
Now. where did i put my Rambo Survival Knife with the hollow handle.
:D
raiderrescuer
10-08-2005, 03:14
Here in the US, I think there is a misuse of terminology...the word "Survival" (instead of bushcraft/woodcraft) lumps in the Militia/TEOTWAWKI (The End of the World as We Know It) types.
Use the term "Survivalist" and you could get flagged by Homeland Security.
can i take a little bite of this thread. Survival in the primitive sense is similar to what is going on in Africa at present with families just trying to bring another generation to fruition without their children dieing. When your country/landscape is in a better state or there is more food then you can practice your craft. With which you may be better able to stave off starvation in the future. Therefor the two are very closely linked .Perhaps one even not being able to operate without the other ....symbiotic? :rolleyes:
I dont see anything political in what swyn has said bambodoggy, he has simply stated that if you are in a daily struggle to survive without choice (regardless of what caused that situation political or otherwise and regardless of location) as are the San bushmen are then you are surviving in the truest definition as Swyn sees it, but if your situation offers the resources available for you not to have to struggle to live then it becomes your choice if you wish to learn survival skills, and perhaps your choice would be of benefit if you found yourself in a struggle to survive.
I think you misunderstood what swyn was trying to say bambodoggy
I dont entirely agree with swyn definition, but i see no problem in the way he explained his view and certainly see no political connotations
right lets let that misunderstanding pass, I have found a qoute from Mors kochanski which might be of interest in this debate
"the word survival has become a catchword carelessly used and lacking any precision in application. To survive is to come out of any life-threatening situation alive though being rescued. if you manage on your own, the situation may be termed an emergency or only a great inconvenience. the term survival may be used for situation where life expectancy is reduced to a specified time limit which may also state when irreversible conditions are to be expected. basic survival knowledge is the distillation of the most basic and effective means of staying alive (that disregards everything, especially the environment in the interest of maintaining life at all costs)."
its certainly an interesting quote which should might put a new dimension onto this discussion, I have only just found it so I am not sure of my own opinion on it yet
bambodoggy
10-08-2005, 15:05
a vehement reply from bam, when i did not even think of politics perhaps i should have used another similie?? The closest thing that i could think of was Africa as it links our culture with enormous skills of which we as westerners have probably only grazed the surface of... and that goes for the other wilderness dwellers be they Eskimo or Russian or south American. And me getting a bolloking!!! Thousands of apologies. Perhaps living and working in the woods gives me a very innocent outlook on life???The last thing that i would want to do is belittle anybody or make them feel guilty for practicing bushcraft which is a very important part of my lifestyle too. I am only trying to make what i hoped was a useful comment. :D
Sorry Matey, I haven't been on for a few days and have just re-read my post....I think I was a little harsh on you, please accept my apologies....darn I hate admitting I'm wrong but it would appear that I clearly took your post in totally the wrong way....sorry :)
If I make it over to the Wilderness gathering and you're there then I'll buy you a beer :D
Cheers,
Bam. :D
Thankyou for the replies bam and stuart. A legal collegue has often said when you ask a question, how many answers do you want?!!! :eek: Will look out for you both at the wilderness gathering :D :D looking forward to it. Thanks from swyn.
The word survival has a rather negative connotion to it.
perhaps the Media have contributed to my outlook, but when i hear Survival, i can help but envision drooling militia-types hugging their large knives and big guns, which doesn't seem to have much to do with Bushcraft...at least not much in common with my stone age interests, which i realize is just one facet of this field. i hadn't heard of the term Bushcraft until i found this forum.
ps--if any of you have large knives and big guns, and i just pissed you off, my name isn't really Storm and i live in, uhhh, Antarctica... ;)
no offense intended, mates! (can a female be referred to as a mate--in this british, friend, sense? or is there another term for the better gender?
Spacemonkey
14-08-2005, 01:03
ps--if any of you have large knives and big guns, and i just pissed you off, my name isn't really Storm and i live in, uhhh, Antarctica... ;)
That's ok, they don't trust us with large knives and big guns in the UK in case we hurt ourselves. Oh, and if you live in Antarctica, then how do you get in the internet then, eh? Eh? Eh? Ah...
Oh, and Bushcraft is survival. It's how native peoples in their native environment have learned to survive over the millenia, is it not?
ChrisKavanaugh
14-08-2005, 06:26
A survivalist wears military garb, drives a rusting lorrie/truck with a POW/MIA-you aren't forgotten bumpersticker, carries a bible and eats MREs. A primitive skills exponent wears buckskins or a Whitney point blanket capote, drives a rusty truck with a RESTORE HETCH-HETCHY bumpersticker, packs Muir and eats miner's lettuce and bannock bread. A bushcrafter wears what he can afford since everything went into a Mears knife, drives a Rover, packs Mears ( the book(S) and stirs fieldbrewed alcohol from roadkill hedgehogs, nettles and old Kendal mintcake wrappers with a handcarved spoon. Personally, I am cultivating the laconic persona of british actor Edward Fox, wearing my Harris tweeds and trying to find my old Comoy Canadian straightstem pipe. I'm buying a Hillman Manx in faded blue before the Harry Potter fans see it sitting behind the Jaguar collection . My sticker will read "" I don't know where I'm going, but theres no use being late." I will carry Sir Richard Burton's JOURNEY TO MECCA AND MEDINA and pack a wicker picnic basket relete with wine,cheese, hard salamis and bread. :D On the subject of using the somewhat prejudicial term 'primative' I propose the prefered 'Paleo' used by the late writer Joseph Campbell. ;)
innocent bystander
14-08-2005, 08:33
Oh, and Bushcraft is survival. It's how native peoples in their native environment have learned to survive over the millenia, is it not?
But i suspect, the native peoples would call it day to day living. We would call it Bushcraft / Survival. :D
A survivalist wears military garb, drives a rusting lorrie/truck with a POW/MIA-you aren't forgotten bumpersticker, carries a bible and eats MREs
You forgot to mention that a survivalist need's at least 500 rounds of ap for their assault rifle, just to go to the shops for a loaf of bread ..... :D
simonsays
14-08-2005, 09:32
But i suspect, the native peoples would call it day to day living. We would call it Bushcraft / Survival. :D
You forgot to mention that a survivalist need's at least 500 rounds of ap for their assault rifle, just to go to the shops for a loaf of bread ..... :D
Survivalists dont need to go to the shops, they all have at least a years supply of food stockpiled away :rolleyes:
Simon
Spacemonkey
14-08-2005, 10:29
Yup that's right. And they live in the desert with a rusting shell of a Huey in the yard. I'm thinking of those two in 'Tremors' and Enrique in 'Terminator 2'. Wouldn't mind his underground stash though...
I'm most definitely NOT a Harry bleedin' Potter fan, but isn't it an old blue Ford Anglia they use? Maybe it was sold as a Minx in the states, bt I didn't think that Roote's cars had any affiliation with Ford so couldn't be badge angineered? I used to have a 1947 Hillman Minx ex RAF staff car. that was cool. Would have made a lovely 'Rod.
arctic hobo
14-08-2005, 10:34
Survivalists dont need to go to the shops, they all have at least a years supply of food stockpiled away :rolleyes:
Simon
Plus they don't believe the shops are still there, because they've been blown up by the Russians/Iraqis/Palestinians/Al Queda/North Koreans/next one on the list :rolleyes:
OldJimbo
14-08-2005, 17:44
I sure like the Mors' quote, thanks Stuart! As usual a few lines takes a lot of thinking about!
"the word survival has become a catchword carelessly used and lacking any precision in application. To survive is to come out of any life-threatening situation alive though being rescued. if you manage on your own, the situation may be termed an emergency or only a great inconvenience. the term survival may be used for situation where life expectancy is reduced to a specified time limit which may also state when irreversible conditions are to be expected. basic survival knowledge is the distillation of the most basic and effective means of staying alive (that disregards everything, especially the environment in the interest of maintaining life at all costs)."
Most of the outdoor stuff on my site is in a folder called "survival" because I was on forums that included the word and it was a logical term at the time. Imprecise for sure. But so is the term survival kit. If you have sufficient tools and food then you're probably not in any sort of survival situation and will happily saunter out on your own. So the object of a survival kit is not to have to "survive" life threatening conditions in the first place. Unfortunately the term "Anti-Survival Kit" would certainly be open to misinterpretation!
Lots of people in areas where natural disaster happen, make an effort ot prepare. Again they do so just so that they won't urgently need help before things return to normal. But they do expect things to return to normal, and want the least possible inconvenience in the meantime. Hardly a survival situation, it's the unprepared who might suffer that.
It's quite the topic. In 2000 we weren't totally sure about power up here. I didn't have any great concerns about how I'd get on - but I had to be part of preparing for emergency situations with young, sick or disabled people in town. It wan't a survival situation because we were never going to let it come to that. When all the embedded microprocessors worked just fine due to upgrades, we didn't feel silly. You prepare for difficult situations just so they won't come down to survival.
Yep I like the Mors quote more and more!
I would like to add my 2 penneth worth, to the discussion that will never end!
1. To most people RM, Mors, Lofty etc etc are known as Survival Experts
2. How many bushcraft schools have the word Survival in them?
3.Scenario: During a bushcraft trip you have a serious accident are immobalised and have no signal on your phone. Are you now in a survival situation??
Hey call it what you want just be safe and enjoy it!!!!
I like to think that its all part of the same thing myself!! I have no car, occasionally wear camo gear, have at least two different kits and dont walk about with a hand made knife or own a swandri!!!
I have what I class as a basic kit, which comprises of an orange emergency bag, survival tin, mess tins, foil blanket, hexi stove and dried food stuffs.
I also have what I class as a camping kit, which comprises of a roll mat, 1 man tent, 1 ring gas stove, survival tin, first aid kit, sleeping bag etc.
I find that it all depends on what you want when you enter the wilderness, my outdoor skills can be applied to either bushcraft or survival. It just depends on what I want when Iam out there, survival for me isnt just about accidents and because I have to, I have a choice what I would like to practice and how hard I make it for myself!!
I feel that Iam lucky enough not to HAVE to use these skills to live or survive!
Thats just my 2 pennies worth tho!!!! :)
whilst thinking about Mors kochanskis definition of survival:
"the word survival has become a catchword carelessly used and lacking any precision in application. To survive is to come out of any life-threatening situation alive though being rescued. if you manage on your own, the situation may be termed an emergency or only a great inconvenience. the term survival may be used for situation where life expectancy is reduced to a specified time limit which may also state when irreversible conditions are to be expected. basic survival knowledge is the distillation of the most basic and effective means of staying alive (that disregards everything, especially the environment in the interest of maintaining life at all costs)."
I came to the conclusion that if Mors was one of the first people to popularise the use of the term 'Bushcraft' in the northern hemisphere to describe what we do then his works may provide insight into what the definition of bushcraft is in relation to survival.
it would appear from the quote above that Mors is insinuating that if you are unexpectedly in a situation that you are unprepared for and require rescue then you are surviving, from this we can then conclude that if you are in a situation for which you are prepared and do not require external assistance you are engaged in bushcraft
continuing to think along these lines I had a look though mors kochanskis book, 'Northern Bushcraft' one of the most respected titles on the subject
this contains chapters on: Firecraft, axecraft, knifecraft, sawcraft, bindcraft, sheltercraft, the Birches, the conifers, the willows, the shrubs, the moose, and finally the varying hare
there are whole chapters on the correct use of an axe, knife and saw and the many things that can be accomplished with them, there is a chapter dedicated to cordage, a chapter covering the construction of all types of shelters, and four whole chapters coving the uses flora, not for food but for the manufacture of baskets, containers, shoes, pipes, utensils, brooms, knife handles, pine tar even buttons, the final two chapters talk about the hare and the moose but only 4-5 pages are about catching and eating them, the rest concern the animals behaviour and the preparation of there hides, sinews, hooves, bones etc to be used as blankets, glues and tools
you begin to notice a similarity in these chapters, they all concern the manufacture of things, the crafting of tools and useful items perhaps this is where the word bushcraft finds its definition:
"Bushcraft is the art of crafting the items you require from the natural resources around you in a situation for which you are prepared and do not require external assistance, with special consideration given to the environment which surrounds you"
jamesdevine
15-08-2005, 14:04
I would agree whole heartitly with you stuart. For me when I associate the word survival with the outdoor it is the act of delaying with a unexpected and un prepared for situation. With a mind set of presivation of the self.
Bushcraft/woodcraft/campcraft they are trems relating to living and exsisting in the outdoors by choice for either a long or short time and understanding that the only way one can live in the outdoors for any period of time is with an eye to presivation of the whole.
it's like Oldjimbos observations on the survival kit. It is a strange name for it. Maybe they should be called a living kit.
James
OldJimbo
15-08-2005, 16:48
"3.Scenario: During a bushcraft trip you have a serious accident are immobalised and have no signal on your phone. Are you now in a survival situation??"
Yep because if you really are immobilized, then it's rescue or death.
I suddenly got sick once and after chopping a huge deadfall off the trail. I was able to get a fire going easily from the mound of dry chips,but by the fire i was still shaking and getting worse. I then had to make a decision as to whether I'd be able to keep a fire going or whether to make a big push to get out - and chose the latter because I was getting worse fast. It wasn't a survival situation because no-one was going to come in time. The only part that skils and tools played was getting a fire going in the first place and making a realistic assessment. Certainly an emergency situation because I'll sure never forget that trip out.
There's a neat piece of writing on survival by Pipedreams - I shall have to see if I can find it. It was a neat rebuttal to those who figured that their skills and equipment would make a survival or emergency situation into an adventure.
ChrisKavanaugh
15-08-2005, 17:07
In a final summation these terms are being discussed by people sitting in the womb of urban comfort. I think that fact reveals more of a social agenda than what happens 2 feet into the forest. I have lots of social and political issues, but I am not going to sooth my sense of disenfranchisement by going to the woods like a pioneer and carving out some independant homestead just to stand proud like CharltonHeston in the red sunset of the final movieframe while FANFARE FOR THE COMMON MAN is played. 2 weeks annual vacation by people isn't going to untie all the knots the other 50 weeks wrap us up in either. People need to make the urban environment just as wondrous as the wild. So, I'm off for a walk in our local park. I 'll need to practise my urbancraft to survive the idiots on the freeway and a lion has been rumoured near my destination. :eek:
Fire Starter
15-08-2005, 19:07
Survival skills, living off the land, fieldcraft, wilderness living skills, woodcraft, bushcraft, i'mnotdaft.....whatever it is called who cares we all have a fair idea of what it is.
Mr Mears, the media and of course the marketing men have certainly done their homework since these days anything with "bushcraft" sells. (does any one remember when black was the new grey or Starburst were Opal fruits...?)
Mr Mears first book - The Survival (!) Handbook contained everything from flint knapping to hide working, along with other primitive skills - should we now refer to it as The Bushcraft Handbook? I know the term bushcraft has been around since the 1800s but has been treated more as a brand name in this country for the last few years.
I wasn't aware that we had any actual "bush" in the UK anyway (bushes maybe...) - personally I think the term bushcraft should be kept for places that actually have bush, ie Africa or Australia etc. Do the Inuit describe themselves as practicing "bushcraft" - I don't think so - applies to many other cultures as well.
I think we have all been hoodwinked by the Mears marketing moguls, so that bushcraft (like Hoover & Biro) has become the accepted word. In the short time I've been a member of this forum, it seems to me that a high proportion of people are hung up on the whole issue of buying more and more kit and going out wearing the "bushcraft" uniform (again as worn by RM) - as with so much else in life, are we all just sheep following the directions of the marketing men - I though that the idea here was to go back to basics and a more simple idea of life? Maybe with all this kit (myself included...) we are really all bushcampers :confused:
Oooh, controversial comment, but I reckon your right. Mears sells tilly hats on his site, I wonder how many here own one. Probably quite a few. This also applies to GB axes, the WS Woodlore, zebra billy can, Aussie hootchie (cheers big brother for the free aussie hootchie, a nice present!! Thanks also to the unknown aussie SF guy who gave it to him in Iraq!!) and any number of other items seen on Rays programmes.
The thing is, this kit is used by Ray all the time, who spends a ridiculous amount of time in the 'bush', and therefore we all know that it must work or else he would have ditched it by now. He is doing the hard work by trying this kit out, and we are taking it that it is the best or else he wouldn't use it, so why waste money trying something else that may turn out to be crap?
Of course, we will look like a rag tag army when we all get together, because we all have the same kit!! :D
Spamel
Quote - "Maybe with all this kit (myself included...) we are really all bushcampers?"
This comment keeps cropping up and I'm wondering if we're supposed to feel guilty if we merely go "bushcamping" rather than carry next to nothing. It could be that we have to "bushcamp" with basha, stove, sleeping bag etc either because that's only what time permits or we don't have the facilities to go for the more basic option. After all, building debris or rocky mountain shelters, obtaining enough firewood to burn for the evening and night is not something achieveable in just a few hours let alone catch enough wild food to live on and hands up how many people have ready access to the land and resources to do it anyway?
I would dearly love to practice in a minimalist way but it would be something of a luxury to find the time and place to do it given the other demands on family life - there is an obligation to give something to the family as well. I've been chuffed to bits to supplement a lifetime of countryside activities with an increasing amount of bushcraft practices thanks in no small measure to the help I've received on this forum. It's great to feel comfortable bushcamping and to practice skills which, hopefully, at some point will have their chance to shine at a more fundamental level. Bushcamping ???....bring on loads more of it...after all, if it was good enough for Nessmuk....it's good enough for me (if only).
raiderrescuer
16-08-2005, 03:53
Here in the States, if you were to start cutting down trees for bashas and skinning bunnies for dinner as in a true "Bushcraft" experience you would have a number of outfits (PETA, Sierra Club, ASPCA, Humane Society, WWF, Greenpeace, EarthFirst to name a few.) that would file legal motions to get said Bushcrafters banned from the wilderness.
The Treadlightly program even recommends natural colored kit for "Bushcamping" so as not to upset the wilderness aesthetics for other campers.
Not that there is even enough wilderness left for everyone to go out and practice the craft.
ChrisKavanaugh
16-08-2005, 06:17
As a founding EARTHFIRST! member and past SEA SHEPHERD volunteer I can take you to blasted hillsides beyond 'the beauty strip' The bleaching skeleton of the whale killed by Maka indians on probation for drug use yet allowed to use .50 Browning rifles and any additional number of wounds to my ,yours and our home. The sometimes sillyness and poor judgement of your listed organizations is at least motivated by conservation. Nobody besides those groups and individuals seem to equally point fingers of condemnation at the Charles Hurwitz's, Japanese 'cultural commissions' arguing whale killing for psuedo science is justified on a 50 year old dietary wartime expediency or countless other greedheads who dart from airconditioned 10th floor office to airconditioned luxury car behind anonymity gifting tinted windows in both. If you don't know who your allies are, at least know the real enemies.
I know the term bushcraft has been around since the 1800s but has been treated more as a brand name in this country for the last few years.
It's true that 'Bushcraft' has also become a brand. Like other brands it has an ideology (publicly put forth by RM, I suppose). The negative aspects of a brand as a consumerist object do not take away from the positive aspects of the brand's ideology.
For me, this is what differentiates Bushcraft from Survival. As has been said in different words here already, the brand Survival has many negative connotations which some people do not like (knives, guns, german para boots, etc.). It's the image and brand peole don't like, not the skills. The Bushcraft brand, on the other hand, has an image and brand more akin to environmentalism. RM's always banging on about respect and being amazed at the quality of primitive knowledge (and making little spoons). The skills involved in these two ideologies are basically the same, their application is slightly different (as outlined in the 'emergency' comparisons above), but the main difference is the ideological change of Bushcraft a la Mearsy, and the image this has created.
That's why people have flocked to bushcraft as a 'hobby', because the image it has created of itself (repackeaged if you like) is acceptable to a wider public.
(Additionally, I think Stuart's excellent unpicking of Mors Kochanski's quote puts the ideology of Bushcraft accross perfectly.)
Well, that's my two shilling's worth anyway. ;)
Pappa
I think that the term Bushcraft has definitely become Ray's brand name and I'm sure he has a lot of fans and followers - but its' worth remembering that all the knowledge and skills he practices have been around for a long long time, before Ray hit our TV screens and enlightened the masses !
People by nature like to belong to groups, and to model themselves (to an extent) on their heros, so I imagine this is where the bushcraft uniform comes from, but I don't have the inclination, or the cash to buy one.
All the stuff that goes on about kit on here, I think, is just boys and their toys (no offence boys) - I for one can't get excited about knife tangs (I probably got that wrong) or which brand of stove or hammock is currently in vogue. I just enjoy being outdoors as much as possible and learning and using as much from nature as I can. You can live quite happily without a £300 knife after all.
I know the term bushcraft has been around since the 1800s but has been treated more as a brand name in this country for the last few years
When I was a scout it was always called "backwards camping" now days though the same badge is called "Survival" something.
I think that the connection between bushcraft and survival is the number of skills and methologies that are the same to both. But bushcraft expands on them to make it an art form rather than just a how to get by.
But as already mentioned..
I was talking to Jonny Crocket of Survival School the other day and he said something quite pertinent. I cannot remember his exact words but it has left me with the thoughts that When we are in a situation we chose to be we are practicing bushcraft, when we are in a situation forced on us we are practicing survival. I know that there are exceptions to this and there are some hard core people at either end of the spectrum. But this can be a useful definition.
bushcraft is a choice whereas a survival situation is one where you can't just walk back to the car and go home again.
For instance you don't just snap your leg to see if you can make a splint. :lol:
This thread is a long conversation over several years it seems so it's quite likely you are going to say something already said before, possibly several times over...
but I'll take this risk and just say that one of the differences that comes to mind immediately between these two concepts, "Survival" and "Bushcraft" is that one is about necessity and the other about satisfaction and pleasure...even deep joy and fullfilment...
Although some or many of us do enjoy the challenge and minimalism of survival situations, and also see mere survival as an art in its own right, may deliberatleychoose to live on the brink, for awhile or for longer, the idea behind the word is of bare necessity. Not necessarily hardship, but no idea of pleasure, apart from the satisfaction (which can be deep, often is!) of having survived when it's all over.
Buth then I am a woman, and perhaps men take more pleasure than I do in mere challenge and overcoming obstacles...and I may underestimate the fullfilment they get from it. So its' all relative...
Bushcraft is more straighforwardly something that is enjoyed or has enjoyment and pleasure as one of its main goals, its core.
Enjoyment contains the word "joy"...Could be because it is in our genes..goes back to the 99% of our time on earth spent before agriculture, following herds around...we are the living proof these guys had a good time!
To come back to these two ideas, bushcraft is more strictly about living in the wild as the word indicates.
And survival a concept not strictly limited to living in the wild. Living in large cities, living in the early, predominantly modern 21st century, the word "survival" springs to our minds more often than we would wish it did...!
Is it the same "survival" as we mean when talking about the Bushmen in the Kalahari desert? Well yes if you consider the threat on their future by people who want to allocate their land to mining...
I wouldn't say that their way of life "on the brink" as such is more "survival" than "bushcraft". On the contrary I would say it's more on the bushcraft side because it gives them joy and fullfilment. It wouldn't be so ancient if it didn't...
No wonder this is a long thread...the reflexion gets endless...interesting though!
raiderrescuer
16-08-2005, 22:11
You’re right Chris, I have worked with Sea Shepherds in Alaska and at least they weren't hypocrites like Greenpeace…picketing the Alaska Pipe Line in DIESEL boats and endangering Research Vessel Aloha & Coast Guard Cutter Citrus during foggy weather in Oregon.
<puts moderators hat on>
raiderrescuer, this is not a political discussion on the merits of one environmental group over another, it is a discussion on whether there is a difference between the study of survival and the study of Bushcraft, and if so what individual people think the differences are. Lets keep it to that.
OldJimbo
17-08-2005, 15:48
I too am tempted to push the staying on topic because even with doing that it seems endless!
But...
I don't know whether most of us are simply interested in definitions of words. I think that a lot of us are really interested in finding out just why we go out (beyond practising for the end of world, carving some spoons or whatever), what we get out of it, and how it changes us.
I tend to think by going out, that we get something far different from the skills that we went out to practise.
I also tend to think that if a person goes out enough, that they won't look at the world the same way. They may become a fervent environmentalist, but I believe that it goes much further than wanting to save the wilds so that they can keep going out into them - or anything else that's easily expressed. In my case, to give a simple example - while I'm surrounded by thousands of square miles of country that I could visit, I tend to go to the same places over and over. Years ago I'd have quickly gotten bored - but now I see something new to add to a puzzle, each time I go.
raiderrescuer
18-08-2005, 01:29
My apologies to the group, my original intent was that Bushcrafting is becoming a dying breed because of land or resource use restrictions.
Just to chip in my twopence worth I think most of us are actually saying the same thing really. The differnce between the two is terminology, circumstance and intentions.
In "survival" some thing has happened and you want to stay alive using what ever means necessary until you can get away from it and back to "normal".
In "bushcraft" you create your situation and your intention is to enjoy it using the resources that you have until you want to go back to what is "normal".