View Full Version : Hi Viz test, orange versus yellow in the woods
w00dsmoke
31-03-2009, 17:07
A few threads back -which I can't find...:o there was a topic which came up concerning the visibility of hi viz colours in the outdoors.
So today as promised I did a little test and this is not scientific in any way, just subjective. I used a military Air Marker Panel whichi is hi viz orange on one side and hi viz yellow on the other.
Yellow side
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h274/badgergrod/P1010006-1.jpg
Orange side from further away.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h274/badgergrod/P1010012.jpg
A strange thing happened while setting the marker up and taking the photo's, a Royal Navy Rescue Helicopter flew over us and circled for several minutes before flying towards Ben Lomond as I dived on the panel to try and roll it up fast and indicate to the crew that we were ok...:o I'm sure this was pure coincidence as I made sure that it couldn't really be seen from anywhere other than within the woods we were in and we were well obscured by the form of the land from any path etc.
Anyway, what do you reckon? What stands out best?
WS
I would say the orange,also in the autumn there could be yellow leaves on the trees the same colour as the yellow.I'm not sure but I think orange is more recognised as a distress colour than yellow as well
Pantalaimon
31-03-2009, 17:59
For work I often wear vests like that. Yellow is brighter than orange you could say, but orange is more 'out of place' in the woods. I would vote for orange
Looking at those pics, I'd say the yellow stands out more....and I think in reduced light the difference would be even more prominent.....
However, as anyone with even the slightest understanding of camoflague knows....with the right background anything can become virtually invisible....an effect I've seen before when a cyclist sporting yellow Hi Vis passed a rape field in full bloom!
It's for this reason that a lot of Hi Vis now sports two colours and refective banding...
Can I ask the reason for your "experiment"?
Smoggy
I agree, the yellow is certainly brighter, but the orange has greater contrast. I would suggest using a combination of both if possible, in diagonal strips. Don't ask me why diagonal, something from way back in the deep recesses of my brain seem to be saying something to do with ranges et al from my army days.. but really don't know.
forestwalker
31-03-2009, 18:46
Two uses for them: to mark an emergency shelter for searchers, or to make it easier to find your way back to your shelter (think DPM basha on dark moonless nights) if you need to wander away for any reason.
The rescue heli almost certainly saw it as a possible marker, and investigated as a matter of course. if nothing else the "make your place visible" is part of the hug-a-tree program
w00dsmoke
31-03-2009, 18:46
Can I ask the reason for your "experiment"?
Smoggy
In a previous thread about camouflage the subject came up and someone suggested orange stood out better as yellow blended in, hence in the states they have regs in some states about hunters wearing orange.
I personally have thought that the fleuro yellow was brightest but noticed the RN use a fluoro orange/pink for their survival suits and BR use Orange on railways... and yet I have a fluoro Yellow NATO emergency panel (shaped like a cross) and a NATO air marker panel (pictured) which is orange one side and yellow the other. So it's not so clear cut, it would appear it depends on light and terrain.
I reckon in low light that yellow would be better however, I would take a guess that it's down to contrast; if it looks "out of place", then it will be seen more easily.
Totaly agree with you're reply. and the best bet is to use both or a combination of colours with straight lines.....and as mentioned above...on the diagonal can help too if you trying to be visible....
Reflectiveness and movement can also make things more visible too.....ie CD ROMs hanging in the wind...etc...
Smoggy.
Gailainne
31-03-2009, 19:52
To my eyes the yellow stands out way more, but I'm red and green colour blind, so that might skew it a bit :D. On contrasts I noticed that the newer emergency blankets have silver on one side and orange on the other, between those 2 I would have thought you could make yourself be seen.
BTW Hi Vis vests at my refinery are mostly yellow, with reflective panels, but Ihave seen orange.
Stephen
I'm not sure here if my info is still current but I remember some testing group or other tried to find the best colours for hazard warnings and they found that orange worked better in lower light conditions and yellow for higher light conditions, IIRC that's why BR used the orange colour as they mostly worked on the network at night whereas emergency services went for yellow as mostly used during daylight hours. I might be a bit out of date with this though, it was some years ago when this took place.
johnnytheboy
31-03-2009, 21:28
I seen a very similar test underwater in research about fishing lures, not conected to your test woodsmoke but i thought i would post it anyway as it interested me.
http://www.esoxhunter.com/ColorsInWater.php
I think you're correct sniper, I recall hearing something similar. As a matter of interest, Police cars in Sussex which years ago had a red/orange stripe round them are now yellow and blue squares. Ambulances too are that bright yellow colour down this way. I have a feeling the Road Transport Research Laboratory did the tests and as a result Sussex emergency vehicles changed to the bright yellow. But that of course may only apply to visibility against a street/road background. Emergency equipment at sea is still produced in 'distress orange'.
nige7whit
31-03-2009, 21:42
If you want to get scientific, and allow me to diverge for a moment.....
Clay pigeon shooters often wear shooting glasses that are red/pink (Vermillion is the technical term). In optical terms, a filter will pass light of it's own wavelength, and block everything else, but filters aren't perfect, so some other light makes it through as well.
The red glasses make an orange /dusky pink clay pigeon positively 'glow' against the green or brown background, I have tried this, and it's true.
Looking at colour http://www.paintquality.com.au/Press/newspaper/images/ColourWheel.jpg
You can see that red is opposite green (contrast), while yellow is close to green (complimentary). We know that contrast helps visibility?
I can't actually remember what the question was ?!!?
I have a reflective, hi viz strap on the back of my rucksac all the time.
I think it was for runners as it is elasticated, with velcro closure - looks designed to go around an arm or similar in size.
Handy piece of kit IMHO & definately stands out as you can see it glinting in the photo of my camp...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd178/simonandbev/DSCN2896.jpg
Simon
nige7whit
31-03-2009, 21:50
For work I often wear vests like that. Yellow is brighter than orange you could say, but orange is more 'out of place' in the woods. I would vote for orangeOrange is the colour of choice for the Railways, without exeption.
It always has been even before Hi viz became common.
a track man would be invisible in yellow
Don't think there's any chance of being run over by a train in the woods....
yellow stands out by a mile.
I think you're correct sniper, I recall hearing something similar. As a matter of interest, Police cars in Sussex which years ago had a red/orange stripe round them are now yellow and blue squares. Ambulances too are that bright yellow colour down this way. I have a feeling the Road Transport Research Laboratory did the tests and as a result Sussex emergency vehicles changed to the bright yellow. But that of course may only apply to visibility against a street/road background. Emergency equipment at sea is still produced in 'distress orange'.
Re: emergency vehicles - the colour used is the colours approved by the home office for various organisations for use on the sides:
Police - relective yellow & blue batenburg (large blocks normally now)
Fire - reflecticve yellow and red batenburg
Ambulance/paramedic - reflecticve yellow and green large battenburg
Coast guard - yellow, non reflective dark blue, small "batenburg"
Mountain/Cave Rescue - orange & white batenburg
bomb disposal - usually hi viz yellow & blue strip, depends on where from
RNLI - yellow strip with green edging.
Blood service - yellwo and organce relfective batenburg
And if you see something with no wrting and a plain blue reflective strip start to panic as it is Nuclear incident vehicle run by the Navy for the MOD
These are been phased in so there is still a mix out there.
As for hi viz in woods - I've done searches in lime dominated woodlands in spring and the hi viz yellow is almost impossible to see (organce would be better) but on the moors yellow wins.
There wasa move after the 7/7 bombings to keep yeloow hi hiz to emegency services only, everyone else using orange. Problems where caused by all the builders etc rushing to help (good on the them) resulting in so many people in hi viz it was hard to tell who was who.
What about NATO blue? I remember reading that it is actually pretty high visibility.
I have a reflective, hi viz strap on the back of my rucksac all the time.
I think it was for runners as it is elasticated, with velcro closure - looks designed to go around an arm or similar in size.
Handy piece of kit IMHO & definately stands out as you can see it glinting in the photo of my camp...
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd178/simonandbev/DSCN2896.jpg
Simon
Interesting tarp set up Simon what size tarp is that ?
korvin karbon
01-04-2009, 22:58
Orange normally denotes a crew chief, and yellow is for workers, god knows what the pink one means that i was wearing LOL.
SimonM,
I believe those type of hivis "straps" are actually cycling clips.....as an option to the old spring clip.....but they can be damned useful....especially if hicking allong a country road in poor laight or at night.
I have a red reflectorised strip on my baccy tin (same material as road signs) which I "show" to oncoming traffic when walking back to camp from the pub, As its on my baccy tin, it's always with me and I've been told it is very effect....not only because it is reflective but because of the movement.
Smoggy
Kilrymont
02-04-2009, 12:27
In the US hunters in woodland are required to wear bright orange vests to reduce the chance of shooting each other.
Interesting tarp set up Simon what size tarp is that ?
4.5m x 4.5m polycotton. Great for Meets and Scout camps but not so good for backpacking!
Simon
ScarletPimpernel
02-04-2009, 13:56
Ambulances are now predominantly yellow (specifically Euro Yellow RAL 1016), as part of European standardisation. Apparently this particular colour provides a 'peak response' in the human eye, which is why it was chosen.
I understand that deer are colour blind to orange, which is why it's used for hunting safety clothing in the US and Germany, amongst other countries.
Dayglo orange marker panels were also used for IFF purposes during desert operations in Iraq - with mixed success - they were apparently invisible to US A-10 pilots.
naturn007
19-04-2009, 19:45
I would of always said yellow, just from my motorcycle days, however my friend carries a coolbox in a orange paperboys bag, and you can see the bloody thing miles away, so from that i would say orange stands out the most!!!
Angus Og
19-04-2009, 19:56
I have a friend who works in the power industry as a linesman and there hi-viz colour used to be yellow but they are in the process of changing to orange as they belief that orange attracts less insects. :dunno:
Mistwalker
19-04-2009, 22:20
I would say the orange,also in the autumn there could be yellow leaves on the trees the same colour as the yellow.I'm not sure but I think orange is more recognised as a distress colour than yellow as well
Agreed, we have so many yellow polars here that in the autumn yellow could actually be camouflage in some areas.
we have so many yellow polars here that in the autumn yellow could actually be camouflage in some areas.
Some places orange does not quite work; maybe not the best example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:CanyonlandsNP_GreenRiverO verlook.jpg) of orange earth, but if you happen to be in a slightly 'orange' environment and need to signal an aircraft.....
I think it was in Colin Fletcher's book, "The Man Who Walked Through Time", on his Grand Canyon trip. At one point he lays out his orange panel in order to signal his location for a supply drop (it may have been an orange sleeping bag). The pilot has a pretty good idea where to be looking for Fletcher's orange marker panel, flys right over it but does not make the drop. Not cool, what gives? It occurs to Fletcher that the orange panel does not stand out against the surrounding terrain, and the pilot simply couldn't see it. Next day he lays out a marker again, this time white (can't remember exactly what) and the drop goes off without a hitch. Anybody read this recently, or have a copy to fact check?
Mylar space blanket can work pretty well for a signal panel.
Also, orange garments are a reasonable idea for anyone walking around the woods during hunting season, hunter or not. Sometimes it's shoot first, confirm it's identity later. At least leave the fuzzy brown fleece hoodie for another outing.
more orange (http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikijunior:Colors/Orange)
swampy99
20-04-2009, 08:37
I have a Orange air panel in my kit bag on the RRV car to peg out when we are calling in the Air Ambulance it is a double sided orange think they have gone away from teh yellow/orange. Plus when I worked on the Air Ambulance we found that the orange circle on the roofs of the ambulances and police cars stood out more than the yellow ambulance plus a policeman or ambulance man standing in a corn field with a yellow hi viz jacket on was hard to spot from 300ft up.
It depends...
Firstly, I´m severely red/green colourblind which gives me the effect that on the scale from dark red, through orange to yellow, the closer to yellow, the better I see it.
This does not (I hope ;) ) apply to rescue aircrews but as 12% of the worlds male population have it, it can be something to consider.
For me, dark red is virtually invisible!!
When hunting we often wear red garments. I tell my huntingbuddies that if you want me to see you, wear orange!
Why is huntinggear blaze orange and not yellow? Because in the spectrum that deer can see, red, orange and green blend but yellow and blue stand out. If you want to be seen by people but not animals, wear orange but not yellow.
I used to do mineclearing for the UN and the visibility of colourmarkings was considered important...
The only colour NOT to be found in nature is blue!
Blue is also the first colour to fade when daylight goes low...
(This could be a problem during mineclearing operations as a temporary safe lane in a minefield would be marked by spraypainting the outlines on the ground blue. I would walk out to the end of the lane and glass the area for telltale signs of mines. When it got to to dark I would put down my binos and turn around to walk back. The blue lines are now almost invisible...)
orange and yellow are used by divers as Surface marker bouys
but are difficult to see in the wrong place and time
low sun angles over teh sea flare the waves yellow and orange
i think the Air sea rescue guys did a test on it and Black was the best for that environment :eek: you could see it looking int to the sun etc i can vouch its hard on the eyes looking int o the sun reflecting loooking for little orange blob.
also cameras can lie about colours etc so photos arnt the best way to see them ;)
best to carry a selection depending on where you are of at least 2 differnt types
For diving i carry audible and visual usually a whistle a large orange SMB and 1-2 very bright torches
ATB
Duncan
Shingsowa
20-04-2009, 18:19
We did some testing on this subject for our SAR/MR team in North Wales. We found that orange was the most obvious in a woodland and rural environment for the UK. Yellow was better in snow and fog on the mountains however.
In fact, stood twenty feet away, a rescuer wearing red, blue and orange in heavy fog was virtually invisible, apart from the two small patches of yellow plastic on the heels of his boots.
Alpine MR teams (Swiss i think) did testing in snow-covered ground and found yellow and blue to be the best for their terrain.
I carry a fluorescent yellow vest in virtually all of my outdoor packs, including my Mountain Rescue one. I feel it gives me the best weight/visibility/cost balance as they are very cheap, light but effective.
I've been on a couple of searches in dense Forestry Comission woodland where searchers and search dogs have walked within 10 metres of a subject without sighting them.
bushscout1
20-04-2009, 22:10
The use of orange on the railways is related to the earlier post regarding red & green being opposite on the colour wheel.
Fluorescent yellow is close to green (and therefore signalling clear), whereas orange is closer to red (and therefore signifies caution).
Having worn hi-vis clothing for years I can relate the following from experience:
Hi-vis orange does not attract insects (esp. flies) to the extent that hi-vis yellow does;
Hi-vis orange stands out better than hi-vis yellow in some circumstances, but the background must be considered - I have been to one sand & gravel pit where hi-vis orange blends into the background over a distance;
In my opinion a mix of both hi-vis yellow & orange stands out better than either one used on its own.
A further observation I would add is the use of reflective red banding with hi-vis yellow, which is used extensively on highways / motorway maintenance vehicles.