Survival v Bushcraft? [Archive] - BushcraftUK: Community Forum

Greg

18-03-2009, 19:39

whats the definition of a bushcraft knife & a survival knife? the fallkniven F1 is popular for bushcraft, but is sold as a survival knife

Its not just sold as a survival knife! It was designed for the Swedish Military as a Survival knife!

If you think about it any knife you have is a survival knife. Whether it be a Woodlore, a Mora, a Kukri, a parang, a bilhook, a Leatherman Tool...the list is endless, but if its all you've got in a bad situation then it's all you will have to cope with!
Our friends in the US all seem to prefer big blades for Bushcraft where as us lot mostly prefer about a 4" blade. At the end of the day you can take advice off people but the decision on what knife is right for you is up to you and you only, no-one else knows what your abilities are!
I would advice you to try a few different ones out and find out which one you are the happiest with handling.

moab

18-03-2009, 19:54

If you think about it any knife you have is a survival knife. Whether it be a Woodlore, a Mora, a Kukri, a parang, a bilhook, a Leatherman Tool...the list is endless, but if its all you've got in a bad situation then it's all you will have to cope with!

Greg
What would your choice be to carry in such a situation? ( I know its a little false because you are not going to purposely get into a survival situation)

I'm interested about peoples choices in relation to the type of area we are in (generally northern european), as opposed to jungle/desert etc

Greg

18-03-2009, 20:47

A SFA would be my choice!

wingstoo

18-03-2009, 20:48

The best, and I mean the very best blade for a "survival" situation is the one you happen to have on you at the time.

It doesn't have to be big, small or medium, stainless steel or high carbon, doesn't matter if it is scandi or convex ground, it would help if it was sharp though.

With one you have something to work with, without one, you don't.

Just ask British Red, after all, he told me ;)

moab

18-03-2009, 20:59

wingstoo

18-03-2009, 21:18

As I have a good variety of knives, both fixed and folding and ranging from small to large blades, ranging in price from 99p to £60 the one I would want most on me in a survival situation would be of no significance providing I had one on me at the time.

All do the job I would need them to do in a survival situation - Cut!;)

Tye Possum

18-03-2009, 21:28

Seems like more of a "what's your favourite knife to carry" kind of question. I mean if you carry a knife, it's going to be the one you have in a survival situation right? You can't plan these things so it's not like one day your going to be like "I feel like I'll be in a survival situation today, I'd better take my survival knife.". Or is it just if you were put into a survival situation and given a choice of knife once out there, what would you choose kinda thing? If it was something like that, I'd choose a... Enzo trapper I think it's called. I've never used one but it sounds like a good all rounder that you could skin with or do woodworking, just as long as it's already been put together lol.

Greg

18-03-2009, 21:45

Peter_t

18-03-2009, 21:45

tbh your lucky to have any knife at all in a real survival situation. if i had to pick only one tool it would probably chose a kukri. i havnt had any experience useing one but many people think they are a very good all rounder, cross between a knife and a small axe. also most also come with a small knife and sharpening steel that can also be used to light fires with flint.

i also have great respect for the gurkas and seeing what they can do with them i know i wouldnt go wrong choosing a kukri

pete

sandbender

18-03-2009, 21:50

What would you carry to cope with a survival situation in northern european countries (all times of year) between a "bushcraft" style blade and a "survival" style blade & why?

Try this (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38748) thread moab, lots of answers there...

:)

moab

18-03-2009, 21:55

Wingstoo has just re-iterated what I said.
You can't choose a knife to have in a survival situation, you might have to use a piece of broken glass, or a shard of rock!
You can't plan these things, you can train for them but you can't plan them. Basically the day you don't have any kit is the day you'll probably find yourself in a survival situation, that's when you will have to use your most important tool - your brain!

I understand the realities of this question but the reason for posting was to appreciate the differences bewteen what people think of as a bushcraft style blade and a survival style blade as the tool of choice in this predicament.

Thanks for your response so far:)

jamie18thmo

19-03-2009, 00:47

I've always got one or two SAK's with me in my pocket (on keyrings - a Huntsman and a smaller one) except at work, where I generally have a bigger, fixed blade knife with me too. It's nothing particularly special. Just a Remington sheath knife that came "free" with my rifle package. So, chances are I'd most likely have just a SAK on me, which would be a darn sight better than having nothing at all! If I were also carrying my survival tin, I'd also then have a small Orpinel with me too. Carrying a big knife evrywhere just in case isn't really a practical option in a lot of places, but a SAK is more discreet and you're more likely to actually have it on you at all times. When I'm out hunting etc., I carry a Mora. As others have said, whatever you have, just make sure it cuts!
Cheers,
J

trail2

19-03-2009, 04:27

If I was stuck with one knife and no other tool I think a Leuku would do it for me.
Jon R.

Chinkapin

19-03-2009, 04:34

I disagree somewhat with the notion that you can't pick your survival knife. True, no one PLANS on getting into a life or death situation. But, anytime you are willingly and knowingly putting yourself at some risk, (say for instance, that you are going to Canada and be flown into a lake deep in the interior of the north woods for some fly fishing), Then I think you would be foolish to not consider the possibility, however remote, that everything could go wrong. Then a prudent person would choose which of his knives to take, which compass, etc. Generally, whenever a person gets lost in the woods; stranded in the desert, or whatever, they have played some major role in getting themselves into that situation. But, usually went into it without thinking about possibilities and with poor planning.

Big Geordie

19-03-2009, 15:40

I too struggled with this question if only for a minute. I would not be going somewhere just to survive. I would be going into the wilderness to do things. Generally when I do that I take the knife which affords me the most options. So its my Allen Blade Bushie.
I know that I could put a combat bowie to similar use, but it would be less effective or a little awkward. I recently saw Rambo pt 1 again on late night tv. I was surprised how much my knowledge and skills had moved on since the mid 80's. A lot of which is down to RM & you guys.:) :)
ATB
G

Greg

19-03-2009, 20:26

I understand the realities of this question but the reason for posting was to appreciate the differences bewteen what people think of as a bushcraft style blade and a survival style blade as the tool of choice in this predicament.

Thanks for your response so far:)

Well in that predicament I would want my Gransfor SFA any day of the week. But if its just a knife then I would probably go for my bushy knife because I know I can do all the chores with it that I would need to survive!

Toddy

19-03-2009, 21:11

Strangely worded question really :confused:

A bushie :D
Because that's what I'd have with me, if I did have a knife.
Small one, mind you :rolleyes: maybe I should call mine 'neckers' for most of you :)
By choice I reckon I'd still take the bushie. Might aim for a full tang one....maybe :dunno: just in case.

Here, just had a thought, is the WM1 a bushie or a 'survival' knife ? :) It's totally un rambo'd.
What about the Laplander ?

cheers,
Toddy

moab

19-03-2009, 21:41

Strangely worded question really :confused:

Thats my fault for my poor grammar - What I was trying to say was what blade(tool) would you rather have with you if you ended up in a survival situation?

The question stems from the huge popularity of "bushcraft" style blades (including me as the owner of a Ben Orford Woodlander) set against the "survival" style knives (those specifically designed to deal with such an event - F1 etc) and the differences in their design and usage in such a situation.

The poll has , so far, indicated that a lot of people would take a "bushcraft" blade into the situation, excepting that this is not a scientific test on the data:D

Whilst a "bushcraft" blade can clearly be a "survival" tool; does it work as well the other way round?
ATB

Greg

19-03-2009, 21:42

Strangely worded question really :confused:

Here, just had a thought, is the WM1 a bushie or a 'survival' knife ? :) It's totally un rambo'd.
What about the Laplander ?

cheers,
Toddy

Exactly!!
What is a bushcraft knife? And for that matter what is a survival knife?:22:
For me they are both the same! I teach survival and practice bushcraft and I use the same knives for both!

Toddy

19-03-2009, 22:06

I think it's the perception that the 'survival' knife is the Ramboesque (spelling, sorry, not sure of that one ) 'thing' that would tackle the Klingons.........except that the hollow handle full of must have, sure to be useful, don't leave home without, gadgets, would snap off :rolleyes:

When in fact a real survival knife is just a damned good useable tool.

I suspect that what I consider a suitable tool for a Scottish situation might be awfully different from that BOD or Stuart might use in a jungle though :D
Northern Europe ? Bushie or one of the traditional Scandinavian set ups.....have to admit though, a wee axe is the bees knees sometimes.

cheers,
Toddy

moab

19-03-2009, 22:41

Nat

20-03-2009, 08:20

At the end of the day, a knife is a knife, regardless of it's marketing ploy, be it a SAK, Woodlore, Bernie etc etc

It's what you have on you when you need it the most.

nige7whit

22-03-2009, 18:08

I think there would be some difficulty in defining one or the other.
ie. what makes it a survival rather than a bushcraft blade.

Other than killing zombies you cant go far wrong with a Frosts or Eriksson.

GS

I think a bushcraft blade is easier to define or characterise than a survival blade, if such a thing exists.

I can carry out food prep with my Mora Clipper much better than my Spyderco Military, that's due to the blade shape and handle offset, giving more knuckle clearance.

If pressed, I would characterise a survival blade as one that is indestructable in normal use, whatever the task, preferably stainless, or a stainless tool steel, such as ATS 34, although that will make it harder to resharpen. Weight is another thing...... I used to have an MOD survival knife, wish I hadn't sold it, it was a good length/weight for use in chopping and splitting wood, about 1/4 inch thick blade.

Bushcraft is a choice.. Survival is a necessity.

nige7whit

22-03-2009, 18:35

With some trepidation I'm posting this thread in the hope that it has not been covered this way before. If it has i apologise and please point me in the right direction. I have done some searches to no avail. Now to my question.

I'm not talking about excessive amounts of time in the situation (ie months) but that which could befell any outdoorsman/woman (a few hours to several days)?

My bold italics in the quote.... and read down before deciding..

In a 'survival' situation, and I will lay out the Military aircrew/pilot ejected over northern europe in winter as my case provenance... You might need to create shelter, make fire (chop wood for fire), and possibly clear a space for a rescue helicopter to land. That is why the MOD survival knife is basically a short, heavy chopper, although mine was shaving sharp !

If we are talking about UK limited survival, then the priorities shift to location (letting people know where you're at, and for how long), and alerting someone in an emergency (does anyone carry flares, or a mirror?) You could make a signal fire (do you have reliable firemaking kit/skills?)

Personally, if in a 'survival' situation, I wouldn't start to worry, until my trousers fell down, off my hips..... And even then, I'd probably give it another couple of weeks (I could do with losing a bit).

tenderfoot

23-03-2009, 08:51

rg598

27-03-2009, 12:57

A knife is not a knife. While any knife is better than nothing in a survival situation, there are knives better suited for certain conditions than others. As far as I read it, the question was a hypothetical, asking which one you would rather have with you-obviously, you will not have that choice in reality, but that does not make the question meaningless.

Any knife is a compromise between abilities. I know many people who call themselves bushcrafters will not use anything other than a four inch scandi, but that does not mean that it is the best knife for every situation.

The bushcraft blade (something like a 4” scandi grind blade/Mora), leans much more in design toward giving the user control and precision. The compromise it makes is that it gives up power. These characteristics make it a great knife for spoon carving, but far from the best option for a survival situation.

In a survival situation you priorities should be shelter and fire (especially in Northern Europe). Can you make a shelter with a 4’ blade?-Sure, if you had enough time and energy. With enough time you can make a log cabin with it, but it doesn’t mean that that would be my tool of choice for the job. Can you split logs for fire with it?-Sure, you can make wedges, and use all sorts of other tricks, if you had the time and energy. The reality however is that with a proper knife, i.e. a big knife you can do all those things much, much faster, and save a lot of energy. At the end of the day, that is what matters in a survival situation.

Of course, a knife that excels at shelter building/chopping, and splitting of wood, would sacrifice control and precision, and as such would not be as good for spoon carving. In a survival situation, carving is the last thing you should be doing.

If I had a choice, I would rather have a RTAK II, or at least a RAT 7 with me if I found myself in such a situation. Think of it this way: you are dropped into an area without any tools. On the ground you find a knife. Which knife would you rather find there-a Mora or a RTAK II?

By the way, because I’m sure someone will bring up the F1, the F1 is used by the air force as a survival knife because pilots have size limitations to the blades, i.e something you can carry on your body while in a plane seat. It is the same reason why US pilot survival knives are relatively small. The other branches of the armed forces use larger blades.

Stainz

27-03-2009, 16:47

I guess here in the states, things are a bit different. Survival would likely include an unintentional stay in the woods, from, say, a day hike gone bad. I carry a Victorinox 'Farmer' SAK. It's not the world's greatest knife, but it includes a saw, awl, and screwdriver for help in splitting. It - and my usual EDC pocket knife, ranging from a Spyderco Native to a Buck 110, would suffice for many chores.

Now, if I am intentionally heading to the boonies, then I need a proper bushcraft knife. I would choose one of too many choices I have, including Buck 192 Vanguards and a mix of Bark River knives, to name a few. I would also carry a folding saw or belt-mounted hatchet, as the intent would be to make trail shelters, etc.

So - unintentional arrival in 'bushcraft' situation demands a minimalist tool, while knowingly situating myself in that situation gives reason to carry 'more'.

Sadly, here in the states - while I can still do so legally - either possible survival or dedicated bushcraft situations will also dictate that at least a pocketable firearm be part of the 'kit'. The two-legged predators are still the most dangerous beasties in the boonies.

Stainz

OhCanada

28-03-2009, 10:46

I find that many folks who carry bush craft knives know how to use them, while those who ONLY carry a large Rambo type knife only has fantasies of using it. With the exception of tribes people already living in the bush.

If a person carries a bush craft knife and a larger knife, they are likely using the larger knife instead of an ax.

Beware of the guy who only has one gun, because he knows how to use it; be afraid of the guy who just carries one large knife that looks like it was bought at the store yesterday.

Bogman10

29-03-2009, 00:42

I find that many folks who carry bush craft knives know how to use them, while those who ONLY carry a large Rambo type knife only has fantasies of using it. With the exception of tribes people already living in the bush.

If a person carries a bush craft knife and a larger knife, they are likely using the larger knife instead of an ax.

Beware of the guy who only has one gun, because he knows how to use it; be afraid FOR the guy who just carries one large knife that looks like it was bought at the store yesterday.

There, fixed it for yah eh?

Andrew_S

29-03-2009, 04:19

Are you going to carry a "bushcraft" knife when you're out and about, and also carry a "survival" knife, just in case?

I'm thinking not. The only reason I can see to carry a "survival" knife -- by which I mean a knife that is made well nigh indestructible, but is less than ideal for many tasks as a result -- would be in a situation where I would normally have no need of a knife, but was at risk of finding myself stuck in the woods. Such as, for example, flying a bush plane between Moosonee and Peawanuck.

When I'm not actually flying a bush plane between Moosonee and Peawanuck (which happens to be all the time), I'd pick a knife suited to whatever I was doing.

forestwalker

29-03-2009, 07:01

Are you going to carry a "bushcraft" knife when you're out and about, and also carry a "survival" knife, just in case?

Yea, and a carving knife, a spoon, knife, a small "karvsnittskniv", a chopper for the spuce brances, a butchering knife or two for game, a SAK for the nifty tools, a multitool for the other set of nifty tools... Pity I have no space in my pack for anything else (except for my collection of axes, of course).

I'm thinking not. The only reason I can see to carry a "survival" knife -- by which I mean a knife that is made well nigh indestructible, but is less than ideal for many tasks as a result -- would be in a situation where I would normally have no need of a knife, but was at risk of finding myself stuck in the woods. Such as, for example, flying a bush plane between Moosonee and Peawanuck.

When I'm not actually flying a bush plane between Moosonee and Peawanuck (which happens to be all the time), I'd pick a knife suited to whatever I was doing.

If I was flying a bush plane I'd have something like the LK35, with a saw (full size buck for preference), a full size axe, a blanket, a wool sweater, a rain poncho, a cookpot, a combo rifle/shotgun (ideally 6.5 mm/12 gauge), the first aid kit from heck, one or even two mora knives, a fishing rod (etc) and the usual possibles pouch contents (fire-lighting, cordage, sharpener, repair, etc). Something like Mors survival scarf might be handy as well. With that kit I could spent a month or two in realtivre comfort, assuming I'm sensibly dressed and mostly unhurt in the first place (duh), waiting for the SPOT-people got get around to finding me.

Ramboesque "will survive being immersed in burning thermite for 30 minutes, close tactical nuclear weapon detonations, and 15 minutes in boiling Aqua Regia, for novelty purposes only, not intended for cutting or use in the outdoors" knives would not be on the list.

LeEcumeur

30-03-2009, 17:11

Mwan think it is same thing. if w hae une knife grande then w can do all things. with a small knife w will struggle to builld shelters.

rg598

01-04-2009, 19:24

forestwalker

01-04-2009, 20:14

I think many people on this thread are just avoiding the question. The issue is what knife you would rather have in a survival situation, and not, how likely do you think it is that you will be in a survival situation. An answer along the lines of "I will never be in a situation where I would need a survival knife, so I only have a bushcraft knife with me", is not a response to "what knife would you rather have in a survival situation". Similarly, an answer such as "I only need a bushcraft knife because I always have an axe with me" does not answer the question.

Maybe your question is silly? Maybe others use it as a springboard for disussing things they feel is of more interest? Maybe the answer is there all the time, but you are unable to see it?

I would carry a "bushy" blade (Mora, SKB) because that would allow me to carry out just about any tasks that is within the reach of a knife in a survival situation. But I will also insist that the question is silly, since there is no difference between buschcraft and survival once you reach a certain skill level. Let me illustrate by taking an example.

Think of two persons. One is Mors Kochnski (or RM, Lofty, Lars Fält, etc) and the other a random chav who has never been outside greater London (M25?). Dump them in a northern Swedish forest with only a knife (of their choice) in early June, around 8 PM, in a light drizzle. For the experts it would be no big deal, just a matter of building a shelter, making a fire, and then start finding their way out the next day. For our stereotypical chav it would be a major survival challenge, and no knife would make much of a difference. But it is the same situation! Once you have the skills it ceases to be a survival situation and becomes a matter of bushcraft.

We have a bit of that problem in the Survival Guild. A couple of decades ago the "challenge/hardship" courses were 5 days, with only a knife and a firesteel (or a few matches, plus some extra clothes). Today the equivalent is 10 days, with no knife or firemaking tools ("just clothes"). The reason? The number of people for whom 5 days with a knife and a firemaking apparatus would be a pretty relaxing "walk in the woods" have increased. Without adding silly things (military SERE stuff, faked injuries, doing it naked, walking inordinate distances, taking a kindergarten group along, etc) one soon is at a point where it is difficult to make it more challenging and still keep it compatible with normal peoples lives (i.e. no month long courses, no kidnapping people from their places of work). I suppose we should run it in mid October instead (we already do a winter version, and there one runs into safety limits pretty quickly).

Andrew_S

02-04-2009, 20:58

If people aren't answering the question, it may be that the real question is how you get in that situation.

It would be silly for me to go off on a backcountry trip with a Grohmann, a filet knife, and a Mora, and then also throw in a "survival knife" in case. If you're already carrying knives for camp tasks, why add a survival knife to perform ... camp tasks?

Which knife would I rather have in a "survival situation?"

Well, wouldn't that depend on the situation?

rg598

03-04-2009, 22:15

I was not the one who posted the question guys. :)

While it is fair to ask "how would I get into this situation", I don't think the question is silly. I think it just brings out some biases people have that they are not willing to confront. A rational person should have no problem answering a simple hypo-"If you were dropped off deep in the woods with just a knife, would you rather have a knife with a four or an eight inch blade?" For some reason some of the people who like small blades are jumping around on this post as if though it is a personal attack on them.

To me it seemed like a simple question. If your answer is that when bropped in the situation described above, you would rather have a small Mora, then fine, that is your answer. You might want to add why that would be your choice, but that's all. The only thing I was pointing out was that people were answering the question by changing the fact pattern.

Oh, by the way, Forestwalker, why so angry? Maybe if you don't like the question you should start a post with another one. That's the great thing about this site. I personally thought that the question was interesting, and would like to hear what people have to say even though it wasn't my post. If you think the question is not worth answering, then don't answer it. I think you are afraid to answer the original question honestly because you don't like the conclusion you reach. Perhaps that is why you insist on changing the fact pattern. Is that the answer that was there the whole time but I was unable to see, or did you have somethng else in mind.

forestwalker

04-04-2009, 04:01

To me it seemed like a simple question. If your answer is that when bropped in the situation described above, you would rather have a small Mora, then fine, that is your answer. You might want to add why that would be your choice, but that's all. The only thing I was pointing out was that people were answering the question by changing the fact pattern.

Oh, by the way, Forestwalker, why so angry? Maybe if you don't like the question you should start a post with another one. That's the great thing about this site. I personally thought that the question was interesting, and would like to hear what people have to say even though it wasn't my post. If you think the question is not worth answering, then don't answer it. I think you are afraid to answer the original question honestly because you don't like the conclusion you reach. Perhaps that is why you insist on changing the fact pattern. Is that the answer that was there the whole time but I was unable to see, or did you have somethng else in mind.

Angry? Moi? Hardly. As me what I think of MS Windows if you want to see lots of ""****** ****, no I correct myself **** could sue me for slander for comparing such utter useless ******* to perfectly respectable ****" style statements. But many here rejected the question, and took the discussion of why the rejected it as an interesting starting point. That is one of the great things about (on-line) discussions; the conversation can wander away from where it was initially, but still be very interesting.

Afraid of my conclusion? Afraid of the fact that there is (IMNSHO) no single better tool for the job than the style I have carried in the woods in the woods for the last 25+ years. I too was a teenager once, and bigger and neater did draw my attention once uppon a time, but I grew out of it. I grew up carrying finnish pukkos in the woods (a Martinni, then a Roselli) then I played with "neat" for a while, before going back to the style of knives I prefer (you should have seen my arguments with Ron Hood on a mailing list a decade ago, back when he pushed 8+" choppers). There is not a lot of difference between a Woodlore, a Mora, an SKB, a traditional Sami blade, or a pukko; they are all part of the same familly of knives.

There is a number of tasks that a knife could be given in a sane scenario (excluding R'yleh and Mutant Zombies from Redmond). Once I set the stage (taiga) the set was limited (e.g. no jungle style chopping neeeded) the list could be grouped as "making things", "butchering (mostly small) game" and "shelter building". I think Mors Kochanski have amply demonstrarted that the bushcraft style blade (mora/pukko/woodlore/SKB) can do all of those about as well as can be expected,

The bigger blades are better for chopping, but a mora and a baton can do as well, och technical skills can compensate (e.g. bending saplings before cutting them). The bigger blade is impractical fo.r fine work (constructing traps, etc), and the butchering of game has been done so many times by moras, pukkos and sami knives that one could not argue that they are not equal to the task.

But you do have a point; I am "afraid" to admit that the SEK 29 mora is just as good as my SEK 1000 Julius Petterson, and slightly better than the SEK 1600 antler knife (they are cheaper when you buy them direct from the maker, in his home village). But I knew that when I bought them, I bought them because I wanted to have tools that "felt" better than the red thermoplastic did. Totally irrational, but there you have it. The antler knife and Julles blade taken together is not 100 times as good as the mora. But they look better, so I suppose I am a fashion victim after all. Oh the embaressment.

rg598

06-04-2009, 18:11

lol. Fair enough-an honest answer.

tsitenha

06-04-2009, 21:33

You guys think way to much.....

Survival knife = the knife you have with you at the moment...simple..yes

Bush (craft?) knife the one you carry most often to accomplish you regular basic tasks often the same..yes

now go out and play, don't forget your ax..yes

rg598

06-04-2009, 22:37

forestwalker

07-04-2009, 06:57

That's true. That's why it is important what knife you carry for your general tasks, so you can have it in the survival situation. I think those two tastks require different knives, and a person has to decide which task is more important.

I agree with you. This is why my main knife is not a short bladed Mora slöjd; it is lousy for batoning or butchering game. A compromise like the Skookum, Mora or Woodlore is a much better general bush knife, just like a SwissTool is better in a server hall than the Mora, or a 8" Sabatier chefs knife is better in the kitchen than the SwissTool.

The only tasks I would like to be able to do with a knife in a "survival situation" that I don't normally do is butchering large game and in extremis batoning full size trees. What exactly is it that you feel the Mora/SKB/Woodlore is unable to do?

rg598

08-04-2009, 22:36

sandbender

08-04-2009, 22:56

...If your experience leads you to believe that you can build a shelter just as fast with a Mora as with a RTAK II, and can collect wood just as fast, then your experiences differ largely from mine.

In 'Northern Europe' I can usually build a 'natural' shelter without any kind tool at all :rolleyes:

...but in a survival situation, the speed with which you can perform those tasks and the energy you save are very important

How exactly would I be saving energy by hacking away at my environment with an undersized machete?

:)

moab

08-04-2009, 23:45

I would carry a "bushy" blade (Mora, SKB) because that would allow me to carry out just about any tasks that is within the reach of a knife in a survival situation. But I will also insist that the question is silly, since there is no difference between buschcraft and survival once you reach a certain skill level. Let me illustrate by taking an example.

Think of two persons. One is Mors Kochnski (or RM, Lofty, Lars Fält, etc) and the other a random chav who has never been outside greater London (M25?). Dump them in a northern Swedish forest with only a knife (of their choice) in early June, around 8 PM, in a light drizzle. For the experts it would be no big deal, just a matter of building a shelter, making a fire, and then start finding their way out the next day. For our stereotypical chav it would be a major survival challenge, and no knife would make much of a difference. But it is the same situation! Once you have the skills it ceases to be a survival situation and becomes a matter of bushcraft.

forestwalker - I've been fascinated by the responses to this thread, including the various wanderings into other areas which were not part of the original question (but make good and thoughful reading), the question was a "what if" and not a "real life" scenario where you would clearly not be able to choose your knife.

The question may have been poorly worded but not "silly":D . I would disagree with the notion that there is no difference between a bushcraft and a survival situation. I would hazard that most people do not attain that level of knowledge to make it a bushcraft "event". My question was not directed to the knowledge people have about bushcraft/survival but merely the differences in knife "tool" styles.

I wonder what would happen if the roles were reversed in your example with the experts being dropped inside the M25 along with the "chav";)
ATB

forestwalker

09-04-2009, 05:58

It is not an issue of what you can do, it is an issue of how easily you can do it. As I said before, you can build a shelter with a Mora, and you can split wood with it (assuming proper technique), but the amount of energy it takes is much greater that when doing it with a large knife. That does not matter much when we are just doing it for fun-we can spend two hours making wedges to split wood, and when we get bored pull out the axe, but in a survival situation, the speed with which you can perform those tasks and the energy you save are very important. In such a situation, delicate wood carving is a distant second to rough wood work such as shelter buiding.

In summer (northern decidious forest or taiga) you do not need any tool to build a shelter, and the amount of time you same is minimal (say 15-20 % max). In the winter/autumn we preferably need logs in the taiga (well outside the usual scope of any knife, even if it is doable with just about any sane knife).

If your experience leads you to believe that you can build a shelter just as fast with a Mora as with a RTAK II, and can collect wood just as fast, then your experiences differ largely from mine. If a 4 in knife was the best for all wood work, then we would never carry an axe.

http://www.google.se/search?q=rtak+11 ... That's not a knife, that's a teenaged machete.

Ok, I just went out an played some with my macho-man chopper (MOD survival knife) and a bog standard mora. I was perhaps slightly faster on the "chop down a 4" pole" bit with the MOD, and about as fast on the cut it in two part (using a baton). For splitting the MOD was better if it did it in one blow, but worse if one needed to baton. Not as good for any carving task (the MOD blade is simply too clumsy to perform well). For spruce branches breaking them off was about as fast as the MOD, and it was not quite big enough (and too thick a grind, I think) to clear second growth salix very well.

I was unable to test the zombie killing abilities, due to local game laws.

The MOD weights about 600 g, while an axe needs only be about twice that. No contest, unless I need to split a lot of kindling.

Each knife is a compromise. I think in a survival situation the compromise should be towards heavier work, as large projects like shelter building and fire making are much more important than spoon carving. Again, you can carve a spoon with an RTAK II just like you can make a shelter with a Mora, but neither one is suited for the respective task.

Ok, what are the tasks one would need in a "bush scenario" (be it survival or minimum kit travel) in your opinion? I'm starting to think that -- asumming you do not need to worry about sun-induced lithification -- we have somewhat different ideas of what is needed under those circumstances.

forestwalker

09-04-2009, 06:12

The question may have been poorly worded but not "silly":D . I would disagree with the notion that there is no difference between a bushcraft and a survival situation. I would hazard that most people do not attain that level of knowledge to make it a bushcraft "event". My question was not directed to the knowledge people have about bushcraft/survival but merely the differences in knife "tool" styles.

But if we are assuming less that stellar knowledge we also have to worry about our protagonist chopping his fingers off while trying to gather materials. Much more likely with the medium chopper than with a non-chopper like the mora. And a decent axe naturally puts your hands away from the head, all you have to worry about is the feet...

But even given "moderate skills" as the critera (say after a competently run one week course?) I would argue that there are very few --if any -- tasks that needs doing that the chopper can do that the Mora can't do just about as well. Realistically we are talking lost hiker/berry picker/hunter, who could expect at most 3-4 days before regaining contact with what passes for civilisation locally, not Slavomir Ramicz hiking to Tibet.

I wonder what would happen if the roles were reversed in your example with the experts being dropped inside the M25 along with the "chav";)

How good is Mors credit card? If it was Lars Fält (with many years at the para-ranger school) I would not bet on the chav if it came to a fight between them...

Andrew_S

09-04-2009, 14:55

But if we are assuming less that stellar knowledge we also have to worry about our protagonist chopping his fingers off while trying to gather materials.

This is the main issue, in my view.

Proponents of large knives like to say there is nothing a small knife can do that a large knife can't, but the fact is that there is a great deal that a small knife can do that a large knife cannot do as easily or as safely.

The primary use of a "survival knife" in the real world is mundane, ordinary camp tasks where a smaller blade is better. If you ask me to balance the risk of injury from an outsized blade against the additional energy I might use chopping wood that I probably won't really need to chop anyway ... well, I think that one's pretty obvious. Slicing your hand open when lost in the woods is a bad thing.

In all honesty, when I first think of a "survival knife" vs an ordinary outdoor blade, big choppers don't even come to mind. I think of a Fallkniven F1 vs. say, a Mora Clipper. I don't know who got everyone to believe that "survival" must equal "big chopper," but I bet they were trying to sell big knives.

rg598

09-04-2009, 17:09

Forestwalker, do you ever use an axe? If so, why? Why would so many of us carry an axe if you can do all the same tasks with a four inch blade? For that matter, why did people ever invent the axe or the machete? All man kind ever needed for wood work was a four inch blade! If your skill level is so great that it makes no difference to you what tool you have, then I bow down to your greatness.

As for me, and my humble skills, if my life depended on only one tool, I want that tool to be as close to a machete or an axe as possible. Again, probably because I have no idea what I am doing, I can split a four inch log with a large knife much, much faster and with alot less effort than I can with a small knife. Maybe it's just me. On the other hand however, if it was just me, why do so many people carry what they call camp knives? I'm sure you have seen some of the posts and the explanations of how people use them. Why would the Sami carry a leuku? I have to tell you, everytime I see one of them chop wood, he is doing it with the leuku. Maybe they are just nuts-you should go educate them. After all, they carry a perfectly good puukko.

For some reason you feel the need to look down upon and mock those who prefer a large blade in a survival situation. Why is it so hard to believe that some people might find it more useful, and not just because they don't know what they are doing. Believe it or not, no one outside the british bushcraft community uses four inch blades as their primary knife.

When I said that if your experince leads you to believe that a four inch blade is best, then that is what you should use, it was because I am willing to acknowledge that different people might have different conclusions based on their experiences in the woods. Maybe in your local woods you have alot of dead wood on the ground which you can use for shelter building. Where I am, most wood has to be chopped down. It is your certainty that you have found the holly grail when it comes to outdoor tools that leads me to the conclusion that you are certainly wrong.

Andrew_S

09-04-2009, 19:02

Believe it or not, no one outside the british bushcraft community uses four inch blades as their primary knife.

That's simply not true. In Canada, and I'd wager in the US, most people going outdoors use folding knives under four inches as their primary knives; next most popular is a four-inch fixed blade, then a fixed blade in the 4 - 6 inch range.

That's what people carry in the outdoors, in the real world.

rg598

09-04-2009, 19:02

rg598

09-04-2009, 19:13

Andrew, maybe they use folding knives as EDC, not a bush knife-certainly not in the US.

Andrew_S

09-04-2009, 19:27

If you look at the outdoors community as a whole, you'll see otherwise.

Most people actually carry folders, or shorter fixed blades. Backpackers, for example, overwhelmingly go for folding knives.

It's only when we narrow our focus to the "survival" crowd that large fixed blades become more popular -- and this, I think, has more to do with fashion than with necessity. If you examine actual case histories, you'll see that very few people have died of carrying a small knife -- many people, in fact, get through their "survival situation" with no knife at all, although I wouldn't recommend it.

forestwalker

09-04-2009, 20:15

Forestwalker, do you ever use an axe? If so, why? Why would so many of us carry an axe if you can do all the same tasks with a four inch blade? For that matter, why did people ever invent the axe or the machete? All man kind ever needed for wood work was a four inch blade! If your skill level is so great that it makes no difference to you what tool you have, then I bow down to your greatness.

Yes, of course I carry an axe. I can do things with it that your chopper can't. But there is no gap between the mora and the axe, actually there is a significant overlap.

As for me, and my humble skills, if my life depended on only one tool, I want that tool to be as close to a machete or an axe as possible. Again, probably because I have no idea what I am doing, I can split a four inch log with a large knife much, much faster and with alot less effort than I can with a small knife. Maybe it's just me. On the other hand however, if it was just me, why do so many people carry what they call camp knives? I'm sure you have seen some of the posts and the explanations of how people use them. Why would the Sami carry a leuku? I have to tell you, everytime I see one of them chop wood, he is doing it with the leuku. Maybe they are just nuts-you should go educate them. After all, they carry a perfectly good puukko.

I have no idea about the camp knife, I have never seen them carried outside the USA...

The leuko is a speciality tool, for cutting thin -- finger thin -- birch and salix for firewood and bedding. The blade is usually no thicker than 3 mm, it is more like a short machete than a zombie killer.

For some reason you feel the need to look down upon and mock those who prefer a large blade in a survival situation. Why is it so hard to believe that some people might find it more useful, and not just because they don't know what they are doing. Believe it or not, no one outside the british bushcraft community uses four inch blades as their primary knife.

No, I do not mock you, nort do any of the others here AFAICT. What we are arguing is that, based on a rather large body of actual field time, we have seen no reason to believe that the the big knives (like the one you apparently favour) is actually advantageous when compared to a smaller blade. I have spent well over a month out in actual (simulated) survivial conditions, and many, many months of more normal bush time. I have never seen a reason to carry such a knife as the one you argue for. What do you base your opinion on?

rg598

09-04-2009, 20:31

Why do you call it a zombie killing knife? Which knife do you have in mind?
I base my opinion on my time in the woods. When there is snow on the ground, or when it is wet, splitting wood becomes very important to me. Each time I do it, it goes alot faster with a larger blade.
So the leuku is ok as a knife even though it is 8 in because it's...thin??? Interesting distinction. Once again, I must ask what you mean by a zombie killer.
But ultimately, I think you once again missed my point. Just because you can do something with a knife does not mean it is the best one for the job. I can carve with an axe, but it is not the tool I will bring to a spoon carving contest. For the same reason I will not bring a Mora 106 to split wood. Can I do it? Probably, with some effort. However, that is not the point. If you are telling me on the other hand that you can split and chop wood bust as easily and just as fast as with a small knife as you can with a large knife, then more power to you. Based on my rather large body of actual field time I have reached a rather different conclusion.

PS-I think many people advocating for the 4 in blade have very littel contact with nature other than matching RM, as it has become clear from some other posts. I wouldn't rely too much on them.

rg598

09-04-2009, 20:32

Andrew, I though we were talking about a survival situation, not backpacking.
As far as fashion, I think there is as much of that with big knives as there is with the woodlore clones.

sandbender

09-04-2009, 20:45

I think many people advocating for the 4 in blade have very little contact with nature other than matching RM, as it has become clear from some other posts. I wouldn't rely too much on them.

That is a little unfair, you've already told us over on the 'How do you carry it all?' thread that you are not a person "who would go into the woods for 2, 3, 7 days and live there, relying not on modern equipment, but his knowledge of the environment."

Whereas Forestwalker is a person who has "spent well over a month out in actual (simulated) survival conditions, and many, many months of more normal bush time."

:rolleyes:

rg598

09-04-2009, 20:49

My comment was not directed to Forestwalker. I've already told him I respect the conclusion he has reached based on his own experience.

Andrew_S

09-04-2009, 21:53

Andrew, I though we were talking about a survival situation, not backpacking.

??

I was responding to your claim that nobody outside the British bushcraft community uses small knives as their primary blade, by pointing out that most outdoors people, in fact, use small knives.

We don't get to choose what knives we get lost with. We get lost with what we carry, and most of us carry smaller blades. Most of the people who end up in "survival situations" in the US are backpackers or day hikers. I'd say what they carry bears directly on the subject.

You seem more concerned with what people advocate using than with what most people actually use. Indeed, more survival-minded people in the US advocate large knives. But I'm leery of what assorted "experts" advocate -- actual case histories are a much better source than the personal prejudices, preferences and assumptions of people who like to talk about survival.

As far as fashion, I think there is as much of that with big knives as there is with the woodlore clones.

Indeed there is. There is also a fashion for Moras. But I don't see that this refutes my view that a preference for big knives in the US has more to do with fashion than practicality.

The preference for large chopping blades seems to come from an artificial limitation, the notion that you have to have one survival blade, in place of a knife, an axe, and a saw. The whole question here has little to do with practicality -- it's a thought experiment that assumes we can only have one tool.

So let me counter that assumption: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

rg598

09-04-2009, 22:43

??
I'm as confused by your comment as you seem to be by mine.
I was working within the confines of the question. The question did not give the option of an axe, or multiple knives. What knife people actually get lost with has nothing to do with this thread. What one advocates was in fact the question. That is why that's my main focus.

I'm also not sure why the word expert is in quotes when it comes to people who advocate larger knives. Is it because you think people who do that have never been in the woods, or have no experience? I think it is clear that many people who advocate for the other side seem to also lack experience. Which case studies do you have in mind? The Sami? The Hadza?

If you know of any scientific studies done which show that a person can perform the tasks discussed above faster and more easily with a small knife than a large one, please let us know, so we can end the debate once and for all.

As far as my comment about fashion, I meant that I can say the exact same thing about people who select 4 in blades. For every person that you can say uses a large knife because of fashion, I can find a person who uses a 4 in blade for whom I can say the same thing. TV is a powerful thing. The comment about fashion however does not change the validity of either your argument or mine.

Andrew_S

09-04-2009, 23:16

I was working within the confines of the question.

Okay, and as I pointed out, the question works with a false assumption -- that we are not allowed an axe, etc., just one knife. The real world doesn't work this way. We get lost, stranded or hurt with the kit we carry.

Whatever knife people may advocate as best for a situation that will not occur in the real world is, to be quite frank, irrelevant to anything except online circle jerks. So we come right back to the question I put to you, and which you didn't bother answering: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

If the answer is simply, "because this bogus thought experiment excludes axes," then I have to say that there's nothing to talk about.

I'm also not sure why the word expert is in quotes when it comes to people who advocate larger knives.

The word "expert" is in quotes because, regardless of which approach someone advocates, he needs no qualifications whatsoever to set himself up as a survival expert. Anyone off the street can start a survival school. Anyone can declare himself an expert. And this happens to be one of those areas in which a great many people spout nonsense.

One of the reasons people spout that nonsense is that they've formed their ideas out of bogus thought experiments rather than out of practice.

Among the nonsense that people spout is the notion that you are likely to lose your pack and your kit, and have to fall back on one knife. This simply isn't true.

Which case studies do you have in mind? The Sami? The Hadza?

I believe I used the words "case history" not "case study." I'm referring to the numerous accounts of people who have become lost, stranded, or injured and who had to survive until rescued. Numerous accounts come out every year. I'm not going to cite them all for you.

If you want to know what works and what doesn't when you are lost, hurt, or stranded and waiting for rescue, the best source of information is real-world experience, not imaginary scenarios in which we are only allowed one knife with which to hack a cabin out of the wilds.

rg598

10-04-2009, 01:37

I'm not sure how to reply to your post. I've never seen anyone hate hypothetical questions so much. At the end of the day however, it is a hypo, and for some reson you have an issue with me answering it as such.

A hypo does not have to be realistic or likely. That is why the question usually starts with "what if..." or "imagine that...". If you don't like it you don't have to answer it. Maybe you have no use for the question, but other people might. Staying on a post just to keep repeating that the question is stupid does no one any good.

Saying that big knives are no good because you always have an axe is not an answer to the question, and I don't see why you are spending so much time going after people who are trying to aswer it the way it was asked. Clearly the question was not silly to the person who posted it, and neither is it to the people who have been attempting to answer. I might disagree with Forestwalker, but at least he is providing arguments for his answer to the asked question. His comments are not useless. People reading the thread might learn something from it. He seems to speak from experience, and people might want to pay attention-I still think I am right though. :)

If you want to talk about what knife one is most likely to get lost with, then let's start another thread and we can talk about that.

moab

10-04-2009, 16:41

Okay, and as I pointed out, the question works with a false assumption -- that we are not allowed an axe, etc., just one knife. The real world doesn't work this way. We get lost, stranded or hurt with the kit we carry.

Whatever knife people may advocate as best for a situation that will not occur in the real world is, to be quite frank, irrelevant to anything except online circle jerks. So we come right back to the question I put to you, and which you didn't bother answering: why can't we have one knife for knife work, and another tool for chopping? Isn't the real question here, "would you rather carry a big knife, or an axe?"

If the answer is simply, "because this bogus thought experiment excludes axes," then I have to say that there's nothing to talk about.
.

Andrew S
I find your aggresive tone unnecessary, if you care to read the start of this thread it relates to a specific question about types of blades and not about any other aspect of survival be that axes/knowledge etc ( and there is no reference to not having any other tool).
Whilst I enjoy reading people's views on this and many other matters, sprinkling your replies with offensive terms is not why I signed up to this ordinarily well mannered forum.
Feel free to put your point but lose the attitude and besides, this is supposed to be fun.

Andrew_S

10-04-2009, 18:03

I don't believe I'm the one who started taking personal shots or using an aggressive tone in this thread. I'm certainly not the one who snidely suggested that his interlocutor had no experience beyond watching television. If my tone offends you, moab, then I apologize, but that is what I was responding to.

In any case, I'm done here. You may all now slag me as much as you like.

tsitenha

10-04-2009, 20:42

Andrew S, I have noticed that the shorter/folding blade option knives carried by "backpackers" and such are from or in the "southern" part of the province, the larger knives and axes are carried in the "northern" part and in the the off beaten tracks eg canoe routes or off routes all together.

I have carried for most my life, a smaller folding knife, a fixed 4"(approx) on belt and a larger 7" in the pack. Along with an ax, so all of these could be called for to do the proper tasks, if limited to 1 implement it would never be a knife but an ax but it being said would never limit myself to one option.

Even when traveling by car from town to town the kit is always with me, anal possibly but still the reality of it.
You are comfortable with a different list.

Slag is for Sudbury only

OzaawaaMigiziNini

08-05-2009, 00:52

I simply believe in the concept of the right tool, for the right job. I love Mora knives and other "bushcraft" blades. I've also carried kukri, machetes, Bowies, and your classic "Rambo" knives. The Bowie I found only useful as a wedge for splitting wood, the same goes for the Rambo Knife, though it broke much quicker.

Simply put, when in a survival situation here in Canada, I want to use as little energy as possible when constructing my shelter, gathering my firewood, and making what I need to survive. I also want a tool that will last through as much possible abuse as possible.

For the heavy work, a small knife just in my opinion doesn't get the job done as well as a larger blade (axe or Kukri are prefered, but I've done survival simulations with 25 dollar Cold Steel machetes). If I was lost with just a mora, I could still survive. However, my energy would be lower, due to the amount of physical exertion I would have to put into knocking over rotten trees with my own body, rather than chopping choice sections out of the wood.

The only place I would prefer the smaller "bushcraft" blade, would be in the precise work that would later come (bowdrill kit, deadfall triggers, etc). But even there, I've used a machete, and I've also used the top off of a tin can, and a broken stone.

As the others have said, the knife I have on me, is the one I would use in a survival situation. But really, I would prefer to have a larger knife. Kukri preferably, but again, any knife can do.

Templar

08-05-2009, 02:21

Hi all,

Hmmmm... for me I would say a Bushcraft Blade... more to the point, just look at what the locals carry and you would see that they all seem to prefer a smaller blade, and since your blade is simply a tool for creating other tools no one really needs a foot long blade in the temperate north...

Just my two cents...

Karl

charadeur

08-05-2009, 02:22

Good thread. I agree with OzaawaaMigiziNini, My preference would be an hatchet and a 4 inch blade knife. However my 12 bowie will hack through a 2 inch tree in less than a minute and still skin a squirrel or clean a fish. So if a hatchet or axe is not in the cards then I would rather have my bowie.

big_swede

26-05-2009, 16:48

I must agree with Herr Forrestwalker here. But a thing most people oversee here is that you DON'T need to split fire food. Doing so is just wasting energy. Wood contains the same amount of energy, so if you wan't finer fire wood, gather it.

I love my leuku and it is my main user, I don't know if it's a survival or bushy blade. Still good though. On the other hand, lately I have more and more moved over to a traditional wooden handled mora, mainly because it's so much smaller and lighter. I haven't found an area of use were I missed the leuku.

Toddy

26-05-2009, 17:33

big_swede

26-05-2009, 17:55

Now that's an incredibly valid point, :approve: the ethos is the ability to make use of what you have, regardless of whether that is tools or foraged materials, and to do so effectively.

I might split up one smallish log for kindling and to get at the drier insides but why go to the effort further if there is no axe ( or spare energy) to hand ?

Similarly why the heck should I want to be burdened carrying the tools that would allow me to constuct a log cabin ?

Survival means surviving in a situation until one can either get oneself to safety or be rescued from the situation by others.
Bushcraft is using the natural environment and it's resources to provide for oneself, and with a level of comfort and relaxation.

Neither is an exercise in housebuilding.

I refuse to carry a heavy pack, I prefer a small knife, but I have to admit I've been eyeing up the leuku set up simply because I find a billhook as much a useful tool as a small axe.
Can I ask those who use the leuku ? Does it replace the small axe and the folding saw in your pack ?

cheers,
Toddy

I (obviuosly) use a leuku. It does not replace the folding saw or axe. But there is some overlap. It's all about how you do things. But there is no substitute for the logger axe if you want to fell large trees. Neither is there anything near a full size bow saw for cutting the felled tree up in lengths (bar a chainsaw). But for bushcraft and survival use a leuku can do things that these two tools can. But the axe and saw can do a lot of thing that the leuku can't. And at a lower energy cost in some cases. As has been said before.

An axe will always win over a knife at almost all survival tasks, but this thread was about knives. I will state (again) that it is perfectly possible so survive and be quite comfy in the northern forest with just a 4" blade. If you know what you're doing. And it doesn't have to cost more energy than to do it with a (insert acronym and number here). Bending and breaking between standing trees, burning off, choosing the right fire wood, all those things cost less energy than chopping, sawing and splitting. Collecting dead wood will always be easier than felling, sectioning and splitting.

Martyn

27-05-2009, 04:10

Depends on what the demands of the survival situation are?

A big Rambo knife is a better chopper - for everything else, it's a heavy, cumbersome, sharpened pry-bar. So if your survival situation requires that you need to do lots and lots of chopping stuff, then the Rambo knife wins.

If your survival situation doesnt demand you chop lots of stuff to bits, then the little knife wins, purely on the basis of energy conservation if nothing else.

So the question really is, can anyone think of a survival situation that might demand you chop lots of stuff up into bits? Aside from somebody pointing a gun at you and saying "chop lots of stuff up or I'll shoot ya" ...I cant think of much. ;)

The big, thick balded, hollow-handled, saw-back survival knife that we all think of (the F1 is not what most people would describe as a typical survival knife), is all a bit Walter Mitty really isn't it?

Taking the question seriously (which I admit I find difficult), the best survival knife is always going to be the small, light, comfortable, easy to use, easy to carry, calorie-sparing, multi-purpose, utility knife. Lugging around a fat burning, sharpened land-anchor might be OK if a transit van figures in your survival situation, but if you dont need to deforest 20 acres to build a log penthouse, then it's a little redundant. ;) :D

Seriously, why make such a deal out of chopping stuff? It's the last thing you'd be wasting your energy doing. You may need to drop one small pole, or split one small log for kindling, but a small knife and a baton will do quite nicely and for everything else, the little knife is just so much better.

Chinkapin

27-05-2009, 07:12

I'm sorry to have to say this but I find some of this thread more than a little offensive.

I live in the U.S. and contrary to what has been assumed above, I do not prefer large "survival" knives, because of that fact. In reality, I carry an EnZo "trapper," or a Frost "clipper," or a D.H. Russell (an original one) from Canada. I hunt, and I know lots of people that hunt. None, I repeat none, of them carry what could be described as a "survival" knife. I resent the oft repeated implication that the woods over here are filled with Rambo wannabes. This is just another useless stereotype that is easier to believe than to bother to find out the truth. In all my time in the woods (which is a great deal) only once have I encountered someone carrying a knife that was so large as to look silly, and impractical. And I might add that he was catching hell from his hunting companions over it. Once.

In a survival situation, if it was going to last more than three days, I would likely spend most, if not all, of my time looking for food. I wouldn't be doing much chopping. I have split my fair share of kindling for fire starting in the stove. I have never split kindling to start a fire in the woods. It's completely unnecessary. Dry wood can always be found. So, I don't need a big knife for that.

In all likelihood, food/water will be you number one priority. Of, course shelter may be, depending on the weather. You do not need a big knife for shelter building. In fact, I can build a leaf shelter without any knife at all. A big knife and in fact an axe would be good if you killed a moose for dinner, but lets face it, that's not really very likely is it? I'm working on the assumption that you do not have a gun. A big knife is counter productive to skinning and cleaning. I would rather skin a squirrel with an EnZo than with a kukri.

As you can see, contrary to the mythology, just because I'm an American, I'm not necessarily "into" big knives, but having said that; I'm really put off by all the constant, repetitive, associations of larger knives with "zombie killing," and its attendant implication that this is some American fetish. If you have a nine inch Scandinavian knife you are a woodsman. If you have a nine inch CRKT, you are a zombie killing yank. I guess its the birch handle.

I personally don't want a knife any larger than the ones named above. Nevertheless, preferring one that is larger shouldn't make someone's choice the object of derision, and by implication them also.

The original question was simple enough, what kind of knife do you prefer, in a given hypothetical situation. There was nothing wrong with the question. It was an honest question, seeking an opinion.

It is a shame that people couldn't just answer (if they wanted to ) and let it go at that. Seems like lately, every time there is an interesting thread, it disintegrates with people ending up pontificating on their choices and then egos getting bruised.

Lastly, it might be a good idea to leave our cultural biases, insofar as that is possible, somewhere just short of the keyboard. Thank you for hearing me out.

sandbender

27-05-2009, 08:26

"...cultural biases..."

Whereas the US did give us the Tom Brown Tracker (http://www.tombrowntracker.com/) and the James Lile Sly II (http://www.jimmylile.com/combat.php), they also gave us the Nessmuk (http://www.oldjimbo.com/survival/racquette/nessmukbydale.html) and Kephart (http://wcudigitalcollection.cdmhost.c om/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/p4008coll1&CISOPTR=25&CISOBOX=1&REC=2) knives, so yes I think that some folks are being a little unfair to our North American neighbors. :)

"...but if you dont need to deforest 20 acres to build a log penthouse, then it's a little redundant. ;)..."

These are (allegedly) all of the tools used by Dick Proenneke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Proenneke) when he built his cabin. :D

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c124/sandbender/misc/dick_proenneke_tools.jpg

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 08:31

So the question really is, can anyone think of a survival situation that might demand you chop lots of stuff up into bits? Aside from somebody pointing a gun at you and saying "chop lots of stuff up or I'll shoot ya" ...I cant think of much. ;)

Well, then you're not thinking hard enough. How about any of the very rainy, moist environments where finding dry wood is difficult? How about snowy environments where lots of the dead wood is covered with snow, either on the ground or in trees? These seem like valid potential survival situations to me.

Taking the question seriously (which I admit I find difficult), the best survival knife is always going to be the small, light, comfortable, easy to use, easy to carry, calorie-sparing, multi-purpose, utility knife.

Opinion noted. I'm sure many "primitive" (for lack of a better term) people around the world might see things differently.

Seriously, why make such a deal out of chopping stuff? It's the last thing you'd be wasting your energy doing. You may need to drop one small pole, or split one small log for kindling, but a small knife and a baton will do quite nicely and for everything else, the little knife is just so much better.

Again, thanks for your opinion.

Chopping uses more energy than batoning with a small knife? I have used small and large knives for splitting logs, and it definitely took more energy to baton with the small knife (large knife was thick, which acted more as a wedge). My thick-bladed leuku will chop through a 1.5" dia. tree/limb in just a few blows. Why would I baton it with a small knife instead, to dull the fine edge quicker?

BTW, I do find that split logs do tend to burn better due to the greater exposed surface area. Maybe it's just me.

big_swede

27-05-2009, 11:02

Chopping uses more energy than batoning with a small knife? I have used small and large knives for splitting logs, and it definitely took more energy to baton with the small knife (large knife was thick, which acted more as a wedge). My thick-bladed leuku will chop through a 1.5" dia. tree/limb in just a few blows. Why would I baton it with a small knife instead, to dull the fine edge quicker?

BTW, I do find that split logs do tend to burn better due to the greater exposed surface area. Maybe it's just me.

He didn't compare chopping with batoning. And yes, it is easier to ignite split wood in some aspects, but it is perfectly possible to ignite unsplit wood too, if you have a hot enough fire.

Your point about moist environments isn't really valid in my experience. At least, I have yet to find a place or time so wet that I have to start splitting wood. Same with snow covered ground. Having been quite a lot above the arctic circle I haven't found this to be a problem. I would in any case have an axe instead of a large knife if I were to fell trees and split fire wood.

Toddy

27-05-2009, 11:43

Before anyone starts throwing rattles out of prams............this post is by Toddy, as in Toddy the Full Member, not with her Mod hat on :rolleyes: :D

Chinkapin, I'm sorry you take the comments personally, but from our side of the pond and from the frequency in which we have been assailed in the past by the *big knife* is *best* from your fellow countrymen, it is possible to understand why the assumption is as it is.

That said, it is noticeable recently that American members are posting threads using smaller knives, and they are commenting on doing so too. Mistwalker's and Traderran's posts come to mind.

Frankly I'd be astonished if the sheer practicality of a smaller blade was not widely understood and applied in North America.

As to the stereotyping, I'm as guilty as anyone else of that, and I'm sorry it galled you. It wasn't the intention and I will bear it in mind in the future.
Besides Hoodoo wouldn't let me forget;) :D
Have you seen his collection of shinies ??:D

Next point; I live in West central Scotland, the only dry wood is dead standing. It's *always* damp here, even in the height of Summer or the depths of Winter. I will batton split timber for kindling, and use the same knife to make feather sticks to catch the fire. Fallen wood sizzles when put onto the fire; if timber doesn't crack when you pull the branches of dead standing, it's nearly as wet as the stuff on the forest floor.
However, I firmly believe that recognising the climate and the growing conditions of the area you are in would be crucial to survival.

Am I going to lug around a heavy burden of a big knife or an axe just in case I need to *survive*. That's a resounding "No".

Knowing that I was going into that situation though what would I take ? My small knife, a folding bucksaw and an axe I could carry on my belt. I can't see that I'd need anything else.

So, to answer the OP, probably the same knife that's in my pack/ bag/ belt anyway.

It's interesting to see the different approaches, but I think folks sometimes forget that these threads aren't an argument but a discussion, and a discussion that has to take account of the environment that the individual is used to.

Wet is my world :) never bone dry baked to a crisp, and never so cold that the soil freezes below an inch or so down for a couple of days. The woodlands around me are rich in biodiversity, temperate and mostly deciduous. Miles of hedges too.
Within a mile of my home there are five burns, two small and one major rivers.
Lots of ups and downs, rolling hills and river gorges, with meanders where the land allows.
Pretty common for much of the UK really.

cheers,
Toddy

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 11:54

He didn't compare chopping with batoning. And yes, it is easier to ignite split wood in some aspects, but it is perfectly possible to ignite unsplit wood too, if you have a hot enough fire.

When you have a task to complete, you have to find a way to do it using the tools at hand, i.e. chopping with a large knife versus batoning with a small knife (if the task happens to be limbing or cutting down a small tree). This comparison is unavoidable.

Martyn said that he would use his small knife for every task, including batoning and splitting. My point was that I have found it takes more effort and time to baton or split everything with a small knife (which will only dull quicker) than using a more robust large knife, which can both chop and baton. Yes, you CAN do the tasks with a small knife (you CAN also walk to work every day if your job is 15 km away), but a large knife will also allow you to do most of the tasks of a small knife without unnecessary abuse. I would say this also applies for axes, hatchets, kukhris, machetes etc. etc. etc. versus small knives.

I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation, when it requires more effort, puts extra strain on the knife and dulls the edge quicker. Why not just take along extra capability of a large knife/axe instead of pushing your small knife to its limits? Does no one else see this?

Also, I didn't say it was not possible to burn split logs, I said they burn better. You can burn wet green logs if your fire is hot enough. That wasn't the issue.

Your point about moist environments isn't really valid in my experience. At least, I have yet to find a place or time so wet that I have to start splitting wood. Same with snow covered ground. Having been quite a lot above the arctic circle I haven't found this to be a problem. I would in any case have an axe instead of a large knife if I were to fell trees and split fire wood.

Well, then you haven't been in moist enough environments. Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight? A friend of mine who lives there has. Sometimes you simply can't just roam around and find dry wood. Maybe we should try to think a little bit outside our own geographical regions when addressing these kinds of subjects.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:00

Am I going to lug around a heavy burden of a big knife or an axe just in case I need to *survive*. That's a resounding "No".

Are big knives/small axes really a heavy burden? That just sounds kind of extreme to me. Maybe the big knives you have seen weigh 5 kg or something! My primary leuku is barely over 500 g and is unnoticeable if worn on my belt.

Toddy

27-05-2009, 12:07

sargey

27-05-2009, 12:16

Interesting thread, lots of good points being made.

my experience of wilderness living skills training and survival exercises leads me to the conclusion that there are two sort of phases to the proposed bushcraft/survival scenario. also there is the simple issue of time.

the first phase is shelter construction, this typically takes half a day to a day to get the bulk of it done. that's not non-stop working, that's with several breaks. that's tending the fire, your hungry friend, boiling water and keeping hydrated.

a bigger knife makes this easier. yeas i can bend and cut saplings with my mora knife. i can limb them with a knife and a bat. but it's simply easier with a knife that has enough mass to just slide down the side of a pole and limb several branches with a "tink tink tink tink" (that's the sound of branches coming off :D ) each sweep, rather than having to set the pole up on my shoulder set the knife on each branch, and hit it with my bat.

getting a small log down to fire board size can be easily done with a mora knife. it's just easier and faster with either an axe or a bigger knife. incidentally, i saw my first ever knife broken just by batonning the weekend just gone, and ihave tried hard to break a few. a 14 year old scout snapped a mora viking clean in half. or it might be a third.

go on a ray mears journeyman course or on a woodsmoke abo course, the teams get a small forest axe to do the big jobs. surely if all these jobs were so easily done with just a woodlore knife, why would they bother?

the problem with a big knife or axe as a chopper, is psychological. it's often easier to pick up a 6"dia log and smash it into pieces by smacking on another one. but when your only tool is a hammer, every problem starts looking like a nail. when your main tool is a chopper, you could be lured into doing unnecessary work.

if you've only got a very small knife, or no knife at all, you can survive, but you need to modify your expectations. you're unlikely to be able to build a full on northwoods leanto with a roaring long log fire. you'll probably shivering as you dry out the leaves in your debris hut. if you can get a fire going, you can still build a thermal kennel with just breakable branches.

after the first day or so of your stay, that shelter is satisifactorily done. but you keep improving it bit by bit. then you'll be wanting to manufacture trap triggers and fish hooks and the like. the detail work is much more easily done with a small knife. as is cleaning small game and fish.

a survival knife is one that you will always have about your person. to my mind this effectively excludes big bowies and machetes and hatchets and axes. if it's more likely to be in your rucksack than in your pocket on your belt, it doesn't count.

Ultimately it matters not a jot what your knife is, or what your particular system is, as long as you know how to use it. there is no such thing as wrong or right, just what works for you. after all, we can set a chav loose in the woods with a skookum, or an AW woodlore, or a tom brown tracker. the main question how much mess will he make before he shuffles off. :rolleyes: :D pick which ever knife you fancy designed by whichever bushcraft or survival guru you like. that knife cannot replace basic skills.

so what is your knife good at? why do you go for that one?

cheers, and.

Toddy

27-05-2009, 12:19

:notworthy

:D

cheers,
Toddy

sandbender

27-05-2009, 12:22

"....I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation..."

Because it is a 'survival' situation, many of us only carry a sub four inch knife when we are out and about and so that is what we will have to get by with. :)

"... Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight?..."

Clearly if we're heading off for those environments then we will carry a different set of tools, however the OP asked about the tools we'd most readily have to hand to survive a few hours to a few days in Northern Europe, for many of us that would be a small folder or sub 4 inch fixed blade.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:37

BMatt, define a big knife ? To me it's anything with a blade of over 12cms / 4 and a half inches.

Contrary to your post too, my small knives don't dull easily or quickly. I don't even sharpen but once in a blue moon, I do strop frequently though. My knives get a lot of use too; not a drawer queen or sharpened to hair popping on a daily basis among them.

The bigger knives are damned hard work to use, they're not any sharper, but they need more muscle/ energy/ effort to be effective.
When I see a *survival* knife with a big hooked tip and an serrated spine, that weighs in at a kilo or so, practicalities dictate I'd rather have a decent small axe or folding saw and a small knife.
One tool to rule them all just disnae work.

cheers,
Toddy

I would consider a small knife to be up to, say 3", mid-sized would be 3"/4" to 6" and large over 6" or 7". My opinion only.

I didn't say using a smaller knife in that way dulls the edge easily or quickly, I said quickER, i.e. prematurely. What do I base this on? The fact that the finer edge of a small knife dulls easier when used to perform the same rough work due to the bevel angle being smaller (and therefore inherently weaker, given the same steel) compared to large knives.

My blades are the furthest thing from drawer queens and are sharpened enough so that they work well. I am not concerned with popping hair either.

Do you really find big knives hard to use? Why? I've never had any problem at all. I honestly do not see how it could take more effort to chop a small tree/limb, for example, with a large knife than fiddling around batoning with a smaller knife. Fortunately, I am reasonably strong and able, and have never experienced problems using a large knife.

Now, where I do agree with you 100% is in regard to the "survival knives" with a clipped blade, "saw" back etc. I.e. the Rambo knives. I personally find those knives to be rediculous and have absolutely no interest in them. It's important to note that there is a world of difference between those knives and leukus, kukhris etc.

I also completely agree with having multiple tools as opposed to "one tool for everything" (which is NOT what I am advocating). As I mentioned above, my small knife has a 2.75" blade. Yes, less than three inches long. Why? It is light and agile and allows me great control and precision when doing finer carving and similar tasks. For me personally, I don't need a small knife any larger than that. Even smaller would work fine too! But for rougher work, I simply prefer to use a saw and large knife (or axe on occasion) based on testing, reflection and experience. To each his own. :)

big_swede

27-05-2009, 12:42

I just don't understand why you would only give yourself a small blade to use for everything in a survival situation, when it requires more effort, puts extra strain on the knife and dulls the edge quicker. Why not just take along extra capability of a large knife/axe instead of pushing your small knife to its limits? Does no one else see this?

Also, I didn't say it was not possible to burn split logs, I said they burn better. You can burn wet green logs if your fire is hot enough. That wasn't the issue.

I didn't say I only use a small blade, read my posts again. I said I wanted an axe. Small blades don't dull faster than larger, assuming the steel is the same. Your second paragraph is also a misunderstanding from your side.

Well, then you haven't been in moist enough environments. Have you lived/"bushcrafted" in wet, sub-tropical Florida? I have. Have you tried to start a fire in a forest in the Northwestern US after it's been raining for a week straight? A friend of mine who lives there has. Sometimes you simply can't just roam around and find dry wood. Maybe we should try to think a little bit outside our own geographical regions when addressing these kinds of subjects.

What the h3ll do you know about where I've been and what geographical region I have experience from? Keep those stupid arguments to your self.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:48

Because it is a 'survival' situation, many of us only carry a sub four inch knife when we are out and about and so that is what we'll have to get by with. :)

Clearly if we're heading off for those environments then we will carry a different set of tools, however the OP asked about the tools we'd most readily have to hand to survive a few hours to a few days in Northern Europe, for many of us that would be a small folder or sub 4 inch fixed blade.

Good points. I guess I got a bit off track, however (as clearly stated by Toddy), there are parts of Northern Europe that are VERY wet a lot of the time, so I think my argument still applies.

Now, how I may differ from many of you is that I always have my leuku with me when I am out and about (usually stowed in my pack). So as far as I can tell, if there is any chance of me being in a genuine survival situation in Northern Europe, I will have my small knife AND my leuku with me. Simple as that. I carry an Opinel No. 8 as my regular pocket knife day to day, but there's very little chance I'd be stuck with only that. Why? Because if I were going anywhere where it's possible that I'd be in a survival situation, I'd have my other knives with me! :)

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:54

I didn't say I only use a small blade, read my posts again. I said I wanted an axe. Small blades don't dull faster than larger, assuming the steel is the same. Your second paragraph is also a misunderstanding from your side.

What the h3ll do you know about where I've been and what geographical region I have experience from? Keep those stupid arguments to your self.

All I was doing was giving you real-life examples and asking you a question. No more, no less. Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers.

Martyn

27-05-2009, 12:56

Opinion noted. I'm sure many "primitive" (for lack of a better term) people around the world might see things differently.Although it could be argued that the acts of daily living is "survival", in most cases the primitive people you mention are just using the right tool for the job. Just like you would use an axe or a saw given the choice. That doesnt mean you would walk round with an axe and a saw just in case. Also, with many "primitive" people, you are forgetting that the knife historically has to do double duty as a weapon. Not an issue for you and I.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:56

Thank you, sargey. I'm glad you see the benefits a large blade can have in skilled hands.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 12:59

Although it could be argued that the acts of daily living is "survival", in most cases the primitive people you mention are just using the right tool for the job. Just like you would use an axe or a saw given the choice. That doesnt mean you would walk round with an axe and a saw just in case. Also, with many "primitive" people, you are forgetting that the knife historically has to do double duty as a weapon. Not an issue for you and I.

From what I have seen/read, tools like machetes are often used as do-it-all tools, from wood processing to food prep to defense.

Martyn

27-05-2009, 13:12

From what I have seen/read, tools like machetes are often used as do-it-all tools, from wood processing to food prep to defense.

Kukri's, parangs, bolos, machette's etc are a product of the environment they are used in and the needs of the people who use them.

If you take defense out of the equation, then a major "pressure" for a big knife has been removed. It then just boils down to how much you intend to chop stuff. If you need to move or travel, you most definitely are not going to be building log cabins every time you stop for the night. If you have a tarp or any other means of covering yourself, you are not going to be burning precious calories chopping trees down. Aside from splitting down one log to get a fire going, I really dont think chopping will factor highly, but if it did, a big knife would be better. An axe would be better still.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 13:16

If you take defense out of the equation, then a major "pressure" for a big knife has been removed. It then just boils down to how much you intend to chop stuff. If you need to move or travel, you most definitely are not going to be building log cabins every time you stop for the night. If you have a tarp or any other means of covering yourself, you are not going to be burning precious calories chopping trees down. Aside from splitting down one log to get a fire going, I really dont think chopping will factor highly, but if it did, a big knife would be better. An axe would be better still.

I totally agree with you in a camping/bushcraft/survival situation. My mentioning of people using machetes, for example, as their main (or only) blade was more in reference to folks who use them in day-to-day living in the tropics, for example (I know it has nothing to do with this thread :))

Bravo4

27-05-2009, 17:37

What would you carry to cope with a survival situation in northern european countries (all times of year) between a "bushcraft" style blade and a "survival" style blade & why? I'm not talking about excessive amounts of time in the situation (ie months) but that which could befell any outdoorsman/woman (a few hours to several days)?

small knife, cos that's what I would have on me. I can't afford porters so I usually have to carry everything myself. I would add to small knife a hatchet and saw, big SAK and tiny SAK and that is about all i care to tote. A large knife for me would be redundant. If I was going deep into the taiga during winter hopefully I'm going with somebody who wants to carry and can use an axe:) . For a 3 month(summer) backcountry mtb trip thru the u.s.rockies, all I had was a tiny SAK:27: . Other items took priority, a heavy knife was simply out of the question. If I was to do this trip now I would outfit myself differently because my interests have evolved, if you will.

I'm getting much more interested in woodcraft and such as an activity rather than AtoB type trips(travel heavy) so I have started to carry (what I consider to be) heavier tools that are more practical to work with. I consider a small hatchet to be a 'heavy' tool and not something I actually need, just something I have always wanted and something I want to use.

Again for a trip to the taiga, these days I might plan it to be a 'bushcraft' focused trip so I would prefer two or more smaller tools to one large tool. Whether or not this is the most useful setup for wilderness survival is somewhat irrelevant, it is simply what i would have at hand if it became a 'survival' situation.

I have just never been a big knife kind of guy. I did go thru a nunchaku and throwing star phase as a young teenager but never the big knife thing. I must have joined the wrong army cos we never ever had campfires and we hardly ever played with knives. Things that go 'bang' and things that go 'boom'; we did spend alot of time with those. The service issue pig sticker is for sticking pigs as that is it's main function as a 'survival tool' ; whittling wood is for ex-soldiers. Downed military pilots are not supposed to be running around sticking pigs, having campfires and building lean-to's; they are hunted animals themselves. Thier knives need to bust canopies, cut parachute line entanglements, gut a snake; get back to base and explain how it was that they managed to lose such an expensive aircraft.

The word "survivalism" implies self-defense and fear, at least according to the wikipedia definition. Wikipedia then goes on to define Richard Proenneke as a "naturalist" and "survivalist". lol, I wouldn't call RP's cabin a 'unabomber style shack' but this is what the use of the word 'survivalism' has come to mean in popular culture. I really don't think RP was into 'survivalism', the man simply enjoyed a natural environment and lived well within it.

I have seen the occasional Rambo wannabe, but never far from the trailhead. So for me I guess it comes down to wieght; I prefer an 8oz knife over a 16oz knife so i can carry 8oz of something else that will keep me out of a 'survival' situation or is just fun to play with:)

I think the 'all-purpose' tool goes along with the 'top 10 ways/items' to do anything, nonsense for the masses.

It could be said that Otzi the Iceman was not exactly skilled at widerness survival;) but surely if he was alive today he would take part in the bcuk forum and wish to vote in this pole:
http://www.iceman.it/en/equipment

Martyn

27-05-2009, 17:43

The whole notion of a survival knife is a nonsense. You could have the best survival knife in the world, but if it is in a drawer at home when you are unexpectedly thrust into your survival situation, it may as well be made of chocolate for how much use it will be.

The best survival knife is going to be the one on your belt or in your pocket when you need it. What have you got on you right now? Cos that's what you'll be using. I almost always carry either a sebenza or spyderco, so my survival knife will almost certainly be one of those. If you are lucky enough to live in a part of the world where carrying a belt knife openly is acceptable, then you have more options. But in the UK at least, a survival knife is going to be some sort of folding pocket knife because walking round 24/7 with a belt knife on display is going to get you arrested.

So the best survival knife becomes anything that you can carry everywhere, every day, all day.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 18:39

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

My choice for a survival situation would be a large knife. I am not obsessed with large blades. I am not a "one knife for every task" guy. My "favourite" knives to use are actually small knives. However: For a life and death survival situation, where I have to make shelter, process wood, etc. and time may very well be of the essence, I want something that will do the job quickly and easily that was designed for these types of tasks, not to push another type of tool too far. For me, it is a simple matter of logic and reason, and not what type of knife I *prefer*. I *prefer* leukus, but if I went to the jungle I would carry a machete. Why? Logical choice.

Most likely if I got into a real survival situation, it'd be because I lose my way in the forest or something like that, in which case I will have my leuku with me, and not just my pocket knife. I WILL NOT get into a life or death wilderness survival situation out in the woods while driving to the supermarket.

Hoodoo

27-05-2009, 19:24

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

The answer to that is simple. This is a discussion forum. There is a poll to make the "black and white decision" you desire. The thread itself is open to discussion and interpretation. This seems to be a problem for you to accept but it's not really your job to moderate what people discuss in the thread or how they interpret the question. But an open discussion of the thread topic is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules here. However, flaming, personal attacks, blah blah blah, are not. Keep it civil and we will all have a good time, and that goes for everyone.

Bravo4

27-05-2009, 19:26

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 19:35

The answer to that is simple. This is a discussion forum. There is a poll to make the "black and white decision" you desire. The thread itself is open to discussion and interpretation. This seems to be a problem for you to accept but it's not really your job to moderate what people discuss in the thread or how they interpret the question. But an open discussion of the thread topic is perfectly acceptable according to the forum rules here. However, flaming, personal attacks, blah blah blah, are not. Keep it civil and we will all have a good time, and that goes for everyone.

I'm not trying to moderate what people talk about. I don't have a problem with anything here. I guess I was just confused as to why posters started to veer off topic, yet repeatedly remind me of the content of the first post. I have nothing against discussion. Sorry if I personally attacked anybody (???).

I've stated my preference and will leave the thread now. Didn't mean to cause problems.

Martyn

27-05-2009, 19:39

If I started a thread called "Polka-dotted aliens from Mars", where I would ask people for their opinion on the best way to dispatch invading polka-dotted aliens, I would not be looking for 10 people to reply, saying "The real issue is how likely polka-dotted aliens exist in the first place". The original poster asked whether we would choose a large (survival) knife or a "bushcraft knife" i.e. Woodlore, Mora etc. and NOT the likelyhood of us getting into a survival situation. Why is it so hard for so many posters to answer a hypothetical question? If somebody wants to post a thread called "How likely is it that you'd get into a survival situation?", go ahead, I think it would be pretty interesting, actually.

So what you are looking for is an answer that is completely devoid of rationale and divorced from reality? A nonsense answer to a nonsense question based on taste and personal preference rather than reason?

Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but this is a discussion forum and everyones opinion is equally valid even if the occasional spoilsport like me does insist on bringing it down to earth with reason and common sense. :)

I agree, the question is a flight of fancy, but if you are going to ask it, it's reasonable to expect a rationalised answer isn't it?

Otherwise you might just as well ask "which do you like best, big knife or little knife?".

crazydave

27-05-2009, 19:54

a good seven inch blade is light enough to carry and tuck away in a pack, happy enough chopping, splitting, carving etc.. 99% of general camp stuff. for the rest or a smaller blade then a swiss knife or multitool. if nothing else I'd rather have a decent multitool.

moras are cheap and usefull but primarily issued as a cadet knife as they still have conscription, the germans issued a full sized knife for years and very good they were too. a lot of armies now issue dual purpose bayonet which doubles as a camp/survival knife and a small swiss style knife. they also issue spades which double as hatchets of a fashion and for trimming small branches to make shelters they are pretty good.

the scandanavians may issue moras but soldiers generally take their own puuko's along, prior to the mora style knives they did issue a puuko and very nice they were too. you soon get sick of having to beat a small blade through every bit of wood you come across.

we had 12 teams of kids doing survival skills at the weekend and I must have cut a few hundred hazel sticks during shelter building with a 7 inch 4mm 440c blade.

Finnman

27-05-2009, 20:06

Yea, maybe it was too simple question to answer, looks like people think too complicated sometimes :) I´m on same line with Bmatt that you suppose to answer given question and explain why you choosed what you choosed.
I personally prefer bigger chopper knife if I can have only one cause in my experience fire and shelter making are much more easier and faster with big knife or axe. In ideal situation I prefer nessmuk type of trio (where axe can be replaced with leuku or like) + saw.

I have also seen couple of Moras broke when batoning, so it´s very risky to baton your only blade and propably break it.

grebo247365

27-05-2009, 20:26

Oh, by the way, I'm not the only person who sees things this way.

"There is no tool more useful in the backcountry than a knife~~~the size I prefer for this style of knife is overall about 310mm in length~~~the blade and handle all one piece of metal, the handle remaining strong throughout, ~~~~"

Raymond Mears, The Survival Handbook - 1990

Even mr Mears kitlist has changed radically over the years,compare this book on SURVIVAL with his more recent BUSHCRAFT publications,lots of folk use the mora/ granfors/ folding saw combo as a result of media surrounding bushcraft (nee wilderness survival) but its all down to personal preference and experience in the end.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 20:55

So what you are looking for is an answer that is completely devoid of rationale and divorced from reality? A nonsense answer to a nonsense question based on taste and personal preference rather than reason?

Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but this is a discussion forum and everyones opinion is equally valid even if the occasional spoilsport like me does insist on bringing it down to earth with reason and common sense. :)

I agree, the question is a flight of fancy, but if you are going to ask it, it's reasonable to expect a rationalised answer isn't it?

Otherwise you might just as well ask "which do you like best, big knife or little knife?".

Not at all. I was just trying to stay on topic. Wouldn't it be possible to have someone blindfold you and drop you off in an unknown location with some supplies and a single knife to test your survival skills? That's a perfect example of being able to choose the knife you'd want to use in a survival situation.

crazydave

27-05-2009, 21:18

it does sometimes look like the only ones who benefit from the misbelief that you need a knife, axe and saw is the guy who imports them.

a bit like switching to hootchies when a 58 poncho sufficed

Chinkapin

27-05-2009, 21:44

This thread reminds me of about 10 similar threads that I have read on U.S. sites, where someone on the site asked the, I think valid question: "if you had to survive in the woods for a long period of time and could only take one gun, what would you take."

This generally creates a great deal of controversy and sometimes heated discussion. People often rephrase the question to suit themselves and their point of view. Interestingly, there does sometimes seem to emerge a consensus opinion. That opinion is almost always in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun. The reason it is favored by most people is that by changing the load you can tailor it anything from a heavy load slug suitable for stopping anything in North America to number 71/2 shot suitable for quail, squirrels, etc.

It wins because of versatility. Well, we can't reload our knives with different types of ammunition, so I guess it boils down to one simple thing. What knife would be the most versatile for you. For me, it is a roughly 4 inch blade, full tang, drop point, with a scandi grind. For me that translates into my Enzo trapper. For others it is going to be different. We all have different criteria, different needs and different environmental conditions.

To each his own.

Bmatt

27-05-2009, 21:57

Good points. Though I would consider the large knife more versatile, because it can chop, be used as a draw knife, baton thicker logs in addition to being capable of doing most of what a 4" knife can do. To me, versatility means varied capability.

As you said, to each his own.

This thread reminds me of about 10 similar threads that I have read on U.S. sites, where someone on the site asked the, I think valid question: "if you had to survive in the woods for a long period of time and could only take one gun, what would you take."

This generally creates a great deal of controversy and sometimes heated discussion. People often rephrase the question to suit themselves and their point of view. Interestingly, there does sometimes seem to emerge a consensus opinion. That opinion is almost always in favor of the 12 gauge shotgun. The reason it is favored by most people is that by changing the load you can tailor it anything from a heavy load slug suitable for stopping anything in North America to number 71/2 shot suitable for quail, squirrels, etc.

It wins because of versatility. Well, we can't reload our knives with different types of ammunition, so I guess it boils down to one simple thing. What knife would be the most versatile for you. For me, it is a roughly 4 inch blade, full tang, drop point, with a scandi grind. For me that translates into my Enzo trapper. For others it is going to be different. We all have different criteria, different needs and different environmental conditions.

To each his own.

rg598

05-06-2009, 21:27

Bmatt

06-06-2009, 05:22

Lol! Bmatt, looks like you have inherited the torch. If you look a page back in the post, you’ll see me making the exact same arguments. Be careful, I’ve discovered that supporting a large knife here is a good way to get pounced upon by people. It seems like some guys take a challenge to their favorite knife as a personal offence. Stay strong, and good luck to you! :)

I already bowed out a while ago. :) I realized that I unknowingly stepped onto the private property of the 4-inch knife club ;) and that I was wasting my time/energy. No prob. I've got better things to do.

Wayland

06-06-2009, 09:49

With some trepidation I'm posting this thread in the hope that it has not been covered this way before. If it has i apologise and please point me in the right direction. I have done some searches to no avail. Now to my question.

What would you carry to cope with a survival situation in northern european countries (all times of year) between a "bushcraft" style blade and a "survival" style blade & why? I'm not talking about excessive amounts of time in the situation (ie months) but that which could befell any outdoorsman/woman (a few hours to several days)?

Skipping all the stuff in between and going back to the original post.

I'm not all that sure what the difference is supposed to be between these types of knife other than perhaps the aesthetics.

Either way around, you've specified a survival situation for an outdoorsman / woman so the assumption is that something has gone wrong and you are either injured or for some reason separated from the gear that would make your trip a comfortable routine.

In my case that would normally leave me with two blades on my person, a puukko style antlerknife and a folding knife of some sort in my pocket.

Do I think these are up to the job? Yes, they can do any of the tasks I can foresee and they will have to be because that is what I am likely to have.

If I'm lucky and still have my pack, then I might also have a Leuko which would make life easier but is non essential.

Leonidas

07-06-2009, 08:58

An interesting thread, this topic always evokes differing thoughts, irrespective of the forum, some quite passionate.....and that is wonderful provided we remember some fundamental things.

We are all in the same race, namely the human race.
Our evolution has depended on different opinions about 'everything'.

You know what, thank goodness, without all these different opinions we would not have made the advances we have made, we certainly would not be afforded the opportunity to share our opinion here today! Make no attempt to dissuade a difference of opinion, enjoy it....

On the question in hand, I make knives, ergo have a variety of knives at my disposal.
But the most popular request from BC and Survival folks alike, (Yes the common denominator) is..........can you do that one but change it a bit here, or add that there.
In other words, given a choice rarely there are two blades alike.
Yes folks will say but I like 'this' model and so do many others....true, but how many of you would change something to a greater or lesser degree given a free choice......exactly!

Please do not misunderstand I think the ways of 'both' Bushcraft and Survival centric thinking is a great thing.....
Just pointing out that differences of opinion is a pleasure as it keeps things interesting and evolving.

caliban

05-07-2009, 02:33

Wow! I understand the question to mean that if you found yourself alone in the woods/tundra/ somewhere not nice, with no knife, and the magic knife fairy popped up and granted you just one knife, which knife would you ask for?

Instead of getting "involved", I'm just going to answer the question. I know bugger all about bushcraft, and in that situation I'd be scared of animals and "funny" noises, so I'd like a big knife, because it would make me feel safe. I'll now be adopting full lurking mode at SOTP before people who know stuff laugh at me. Bye!

forestwalker

05-07-2009, 05:19

Wow! I understand the question to mean that if you found yourself alone in the woods/tundra/ somewhere not nice, with no knife, and the magic knife fairy popped up and granted you just one knife, which knife would you ask for?

In that case I would ask for the one Ray Mears is using right now, right out of his hand. Not beacuse it would be anexcellent choice, but because of my nasty sense of humour. But other than that that was my understanding as well, with the implication that that would be the blade you would also carry/wear on your person at all times when out, in order for it to be the blade you would have when things went wrong.

Instead of getting "involved", I'm just going to answer the question. I know bugger all about bushcraft, and in that situation I'd be scared of animals and "funny" noises, so I'd like a big knife, because it would make me feel safe. I'll now be adopting full lurking mode at SOTP before people who know stuff laugh at me. Bye!

Valid concern. I may think it is silly; the risk is miniscule in most places, and no knife/sword is a good choice against an animal capable to killing a human. If was actually worried about the wild animals and offered one blade it would be a top class boar spear, since that would give me a better chance against lions, tigers, bears and even wild boars than any knife up to and including a sword. If the knife fairy insisted on a blade I'd pick a two handed claymore or a landsknecht zweihänder, the latter being the one "blade" I'd feel even remotely confident with facing a bear or board with, if it was tiger/leopard/lion a handier chopping sword (e.g. a basket hilt claymore or a tulwar style sabre) would be better. This all assumes some training in their use...

320

05-07-2009, 15:13

just a thought or twoo.

if you were to google (images) "survival knife" and "bushcraft knife", then compare the first page of each result you would assume that survival knives were medium to large bowies and bushcraft knives were small to medium drop points.

if you expanded the results to two pages your impression would get a little murkier.

if you expanded the result to ten pages of each search all you'd know for sure is that you were looking at knives.

it's already been said but it's still true: the best knife for survival is the one you have.

after that it's personal or cultural bias.

i tend to think of bias as dogma. dogmatic thinking tends to be self-limiting and in a survival situation self-defeating.

when i was a child i read every book bradford angier wrote and as a consequence picked up some peculiar skills and attitudes about woodsmanship.

if i was dogmatic, i would have a five inch randall knife on my hip as i typed this.

i don't.

i have a case stockman in my pocket and a leatherman on my belt.

that's what works for me.

you probably have something else and that works for you.

ultimately it all works.

it's more about your skill and attitude than the tool.

sandbender

05-07-2009, 15:55

"...just a thought or twoo.if you were to google (images) "survival knife" and "bushcraft knife"...............it's more about your skill and attitude than the tool..."

Great post. :D

moab

05-07-2009, 16:18

Skipping all the stuff in between and going back to the original post.

I'm not all that sure what the difference is supposed to be between these types of knife other than perhaps the aesthetics.

Either way around, you've specified a survival situation for an outdoorsman / woman so the assumption is that something has gone wrong and you are either injured or for some reason separated from the gear that would make your trip a comfortable routine.

In my case that would normally leave me with two blades on my person, a puukko style antlerknife and a folding knife of some sort in my pocket.

Do I think these are up to the job? Yes, they can do any of the tasks I can foresee and they will have to be because that is what I am likely to have.

If I'm lucky and still have my pack, then I might also have a Leuko which would make life easier but is non essential.

Thanks Wayland - One of many straight forward answers to my (somewhat theoretical question). What I was trying to seek opinion on was the "perceived" view of users on the different types of blade that are normally associated with woodcraft/outdoors type activities (and have got it in buckets:) ). Myself , I tend to favour "expedition" (small e) style activites and this shapes my thinking about what tools I'lll need. I usually carry a scandi blade, but my recent thinking is leaning towards a slightly more rugged blade as my main tool.

Pict

06-07-2009, 00:15

In the north woods I would want my SBT but down in Brazil I carry my SBT. The only ting that changes between these locations is axe or machete. Mac

caliban

07-07-2009, 19:20

I've been trying not to ask this since yesterday, what's an SBT?

Adrian

08-07-2009, 18:53

Going back to the original post ( and how come no one has expressed a preference for lightsabres eh?eh?), if I was going into a situation where I considered that I MIGHT need a survival kit and could therefore prepare (eg bush pilot over very rough terrain or something) and could only fit one blade into the kit, I'd probably opt for something like a Leuku, and I always have a Leatherman tool on my belt. If I had the space, then an axe (GB of course) and a smaller belt knife (4" or so) and the Leatherman.

If I'm just out for the day somewhere, and the world falls in, then all I'm likely to have with me is the Leatherman. In case anyone asks which Leatherman, it's the Wave - the first model that I've had for years and carry everywhere.

If I'm on an airliner and somehow wide up in the Northern forest all alone and without any bits of plane around, then it could be a struggle to manage with the little plastic knife and fork set that they give you to eat the rubber chicken!:)

bikething

08-07-2009, 20:30

I've been trying not to ask this since yesterday, what's an SBT?Skookum Bush Tool (I think) see here (http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27462)

Big Geordie

09-07-2009, 02:04

Hi Guys,
I marvel at how often this topic reappears and strangely why the answers are unapposed. Can I ask why a Leuku is so good?:confused: :confused:
The reason I ask is that I love my puuko but for any task more substantial I prefer my tomahawk or small axe or even a Kukri.. certainly not another knife with a rat tail tang..
Can you shed light on this?
G:)

VtBlackdog

23-07-2009, 01:23

I might go with my SAK OHT plain edge; good saw, just enough blade...toothpick!

Genaa

03-08-2009, 13:54

Hmm following the theme of what would I likely have with me - I have a Fallkniven A1 that routinely goes on all trips with me and is great for pretty much everything thrown at it and I also carry a small french Nontron folder, similar to an opinel but bit more durable for very fine stuff. I would like to supplement these with a smaller strudy fixed blade and would likely choose something like an F1.

BushcraftBaird112

03-08-2009, 15:07

I think I would choose the bushcraft knife with birch scales over 25 CM. COMBAT SPECIAL OPS, NAVY, SAS, MARINE SAWBACK RAMBO SURVIVAL KNIFE W/ HOLLOW HANDLE!!!!!!! :tongue-ti

wildman695

03-08-2009, 15:49

Hoodoo

03-08-2009, 16:30

to my mind the question answers itself in a survival situation you need a survival knife,if that knife also happens to be a bushcraft knife then so be it I would want something strong able to take a few knocks, suitable for use as a spear, so not too hard a blade or it could break, yet sharp enough to skin your dinner. No matter what lable is on a knife if it is suitable then it is a survival knife. A better question would be what defines a survival knife as different to a bushcraft knife if anything.

Well, for one thing, someone skilled in bushcraft with a good woodcraft knife should be able to make a variety of hightly effective spears without tying their knife to the end of a pole. That would be a last thing I would do to my one and only "survival knife" in a survival situation. Good way to break it, dull it, ruin it, lose it.

Genaa

03-08-2009, 18:26

Well, for one thing, someone skilled in bushcraft with a good woodcraft knife should be able to make a variety of hightly effective spears without tying their knife to the end of a pole. That would be a last thing I would do to my one and only "survival knife" in a survival situation. Good way to break it, dull it, ruin it, lose it.

What he said ;)

rg598

07-08-2009, 19:58

Wow, I can’t believe this thread is still going on-cool.

@ Big Geordie: I like the Leuku design. I agree, the rat tail tang is a big problem for me, and that is why I don’t use such knives. I believe the reason for the rat tail tang is largely historical. When the design first appeared, metal was too expensive to “waste” in the handle of a knife. It is only recently that we have had the luxury of putting enough metal in the handle to make a second blade. The design has just stuck around.

@ BushcraftBaird112: There is no reason to jump to extremes of silliness. I don’t think anyone is discussing a hollow handle Rambo knife when talking about survival knives. Much like when we discuss bushcraft knives, we are not only looking at partial tang Mora knives.

I think Adrian created the best scenario, i.e. if I were a bush pilot and could only have one knife in my kit, what knife would I take? For me the answer, as I have stated before is a heavy blade, 7in-9in. It is not ideal for all tasks, but I think it is best suited for the work I am likely to do in a survival situation, such as making fire and building shelters. It is not likely that I will have to skin animals, or carve spoons, so while a smaller knife would be better suited for those tasks, the tasks themselves would be a much lower priority.

I know some people disagree, and believe that you can just as easily collect and split firewood, and make shelters with a small knife as with a large one, but I think physics dictates otherwise. When using a large knife to split wood, you can do the same task as with a small knife, but with much less energy. In a survival situation, that is key. At the end of the day, that is why we use axes and big knives for the major wood processing tasks.

Over the weekend, I was watching the Ray Mears World of Survival series, and in all the cultures he explored, when it came to tasks like shelter building and large wood processing, they all used axes or large knives. For one reason or another, al those people believe it is easier to build a shelter with a large knife that a small one.

Tye Possum

07-08-2009, 22:59

@ Big Geordie: I like the Leuku design. I agree, the rat tail tang is a big problem for me, and that is why I don’t use such knives. I believe the reason for the rat tail tang is largely historical. When the design first appeared, metal was too expensive to “waste” in the handle of a knife. It is only recently that we have had the luxury of putting enough metal in the handle to make a second blade. The design has just stuck around. I think it also has to do with the areas where those knives come from and the temperatures that they get there (cold), if you had a big chunk of metal sticking out the sides of your handle then it might get a little cold on your hand.

I also think it would probably be better to have a larger knife in a survival situation, unless you had an axe instead. In survival you need to focus on what you need to survive and nothing else really so what's better for building shelters and collecting firewood? You could do it with a small knife but it would be harder, take more time and be tougher on the knife (not to mention you). Some people say that you can do anything you can do with a small knife just as well with a big knife but I disagree there, with a smaller knife you have more control and are able to get a lot more detail but it works the other way too, with a small knife you could do what you can with a big knife but it's not going to be as good, that's why knives come in different sizes, because they're made for different jobs. It's like cutting down a tree, you could use a hatchet but it sure would be easier with a full sized felling axe.

charadeur

20-08-2009, 20:49

Our friends in the US all seem to prefer big blades for Bushcraft where as us lot mostly prefer about a 4" blade. At the end of the day you can take advice off people but the decision on what knife is right for you is up to you and you only, no-one else knows what your abilities are!

Greg, I think this is an astute observation. After discovering Ray Mears and this forum I was a bit surprised at the UK preference for such a small blade. When I was around 12 or 13 I had the pleasure of being introduced to a friends uncle who was a Blackfoot Native American. One of the many things I learned was that a Bowie knife can hack through a two inch tree in no time when you are making a shelter or traps and if you have to it can field dress a mouse. However that little three inch hunting knife I had was not as versatile.

I am intrigued by the idea of using a smaller blade. I am going to experiment with that idea a little. Do you think it is just technique? Or perhaps we are using our knifes for different things? I really am trying to understand why two groups that seem to be doing the same things have such a wide gap in what is arguably the most important tool we use.

Graham_S

21-08-2009, 22:28

armie

23-08-2009, 12:36

@BushcraftBaird112:
You forgot TACTICAL. "Yes, tactical: that meaningless buzzword that has been slowly osmosing its way into the world of outdoor equipment over the last few years." (Quoted from the Outdoor Idiots website)

Years ago - before I was bushcrafting - I saw a knife like that in a magazine, with a rave review. It put me off knives for years; I thought those monstrosities were the norm.

Silverclaws

23-08-2009, 12:44

Ok, just for a few nights out in the sticks where one is concerned with just communing with nature, doing your thing and then heading back to civilisation, what is better than a useful SAK, or Leatherman. I mean any good SAK or leatherman has at least two useful blades and sometimes a very useful saw besides other bits of shaped metal that can be put to various uses other than their intended uses. So, wherever I go, a Leatherman Juice Xe6 comes with me, and as I always carry my wallet, there is a Swiss card in there, so that is carrying toothpick, tweezers and pin, about as much as I need for what I do. I look at it this way, if I wanted to chop a branch, for whatever purposes, hey I can saw a branch, the rather fine saw found on useful multi tool knives can be good for anything upto six inch diameter, a lot of work, but then to need a branch has got to have some desperation in it. But, when I commune with nature, my aim is to exist without customising my enviroment.

And so to a fixed blade, I do own a Frost's of Mora general purpose knife, and a Devon pattern Billhook, if I envisaged a situation where I would need heavier duty blades, then I would take my Frost's general purpose fixed blade knife, yeah, it has a Scandinavian grind, but knives from there tend to be ground that way, but the knife is a general purpose knife. Anything heavier, then the billhook comes out to play. Now, when I go out in the sticks, I resist carrying my Frosts knife on my belt, because I am kind of forgetful, and it is likely I will forget the thing hanging there and walk out into public and with this society we live in, not a good idea. Sweden, ok, no problems, they have a different attitude up there, but here, the thought scares me, so I don't wear my Mora, it is a liability. To note, I use the pintle type sheaths, where the knife is free to take on any attitude I do, so if for example I decide to mimmick a bat in a tree, the knife swings so the handle faces up, I don't lose the knife.

A survival situation, if whatever happens, then it is usually at a time you don't have your shiny bits of kit on you, so it is having the knowledge to improvise from what you may find around, that is what survival means to me, and in such cases, survival from what kind of disaster, if aircraft, well we all know the prohibitions on taking any seemingly pointed or edged tool in the cabin, we simply won't have the stuff we have learned to depend on with us, so it's knowledge that is the sharpest tool you will have.

But one thing I do see what with bushcraft and survival, is they are once again marketing ploys, something can be sold, with either name attached, and it makes a bog standard knife special in some way, and there creates a confidence in the user, which might not be otherwise there, to remember, a knife is just a cutting tool, nothing more, when push comes to shove, there are many ways to achieve your aim without the most obvious and why risk breaking a knife, or injuring yourself doing something on the edge of it's capabilities when there are bigger tools more suited to the job. Want to cut branches, take a saw.

Siberianfury

26-08-2009, 11:36

i would prefer some sort of finnish puukko or similar, however if your in a survival situation im sure you would be just fine with a cheap chinese folding knife with an accrylic handle or a peice of broken glass or flint.
given the choice i would choose a real knife like a puukko or one of bernie's blades

Mr Adoby

27-08-2009, 06:17

In an unprepared survival situation I only have the Spartan SAK with my keys. Perhaps also a larger folder. This is not optimal survival gear. But it's what I've ALWAYS got on me.

If I'm out working in my woods I also have a Stainless Mora Quicksnap, usually a Leatherman Hybrid and other tools, depending on what I do. But that's not a survival situation.

If I'm out on a prepared trip I have a Mora and perhaps an A1 or an axe. But that's not a survival situation.

The best knife for survival purposes is the one you ALWAYS can and actually do carry. It's the only one you can be sure to have in a real survival situation. Anything else is a bonus.

Oblio13

28-08-2009, 16:18

I don't understand the desire to chop with knives. They simply aren't good at it. Trying to make them big and heavy enough to chop wood with even marginal effectiveness only ruins them for their legitimate purposes. Bowie-style knives are a badge that says "I got my outdoor skills by watching Rambo and Crocodile Dundee".

... I will lay out the Military aircrew/pilot ejected over northern europe in winter as my case provenance... You might need to create shelter, make fire (chop wood for fire), and possibly clear a space for a rescue helicopter to land. That is why the MOD survival knife is basically a short, heavy chopper...

As a retired military pilot (and current airline and bush pilot) with several survival schools and exercises (and two crashes) under my belt: There's almost never a need to chop wood for fire. You'll just waste energy and give yourself blisters. Simply burn the ends of the logs, or burn them in half. And no need to clear the forest with a knife for rescue helicopters, they can drop you a line as easily as landing. As for shelter-building, an axe and a shovel would be nice. But I don't see that a Rambo knife would be an improvement over a Mora.

The knives issued to military pilots are junk, made by the lowest bidder. Those of us who were serious about survival replaced them. The only reasons they're larger and heavier than, say, a Mora, is that they might be used to hack through a plexiglass canopy or to fight with. I replaced my issued Ka-Bar with a Buck "Nighthawk", and my issued pilot survival knife with a 4" Kershaw. I still have both. The Buck has hardly ever been used. Even though it's an improvement over a Ka-Bar, it's still too large and awkward for almost everything.

... Beware of the guy who only has one gun, because he knows how to use it...

Nor do I understand that oft-repeated axiom. I can't imagine a skillful shooter having only one firearm any more than I can imagine a skillful whittler having only one knife, a skillful cook having only one pot, or a skillful reader having only one book.

Hoodoo

19-10-2009, 12:59

I don't understand the desire to chop with knives. They simply aren't good at it. Trying to make them big and heavy enough to chop wood with even marginal effectiveness only ruins them for their legitimate purposes. Bowie-style knives are a badge that says "I got my outdoor skills by watching Rambo and Crocodile Dundee".

As a retired military pilot (and current airline and bush pilot) with several survival schools and exercises (and two crashes) under my belt: There's almost never a need to chop wood for fire. You'll just waste energy and give yourself blisters. Simply burn the ends of the logs, or burn them in half. And no need to clear the forest with a knife for rescue helicopters, they can drop you a line as easily as landing. As for shelter-building, an axe and a shovel would be nice. But I don't see that a Rambo knife would be an improvement over a Mora.

The knives issued to military pilots are junk, made by the lowest bidder. Those of us who were serious about survival replaced them. The only reasons they're larger and heavier than, say, a Mora, is that they might be used to hack through a plexiglass canopy or to fight with. I replaced my issued Ka-Bar with a Buck "Nighthawk", and my issued pilot survival knife with a 4" Kershaw. I still have both. The Buck has hardly ever been used. Even though it's an improvement over a Ka-Bar, it's still too large and awkward for almost everything.

Nor do I understand that oft-repeated axiom. I can't imagine a skillful shooter having only one firearm any more than I can imagine a skillful whittler having only one knife, a skillful cook having only one pot, or a skillful reader having only one book.

A lot of good points there! I was right there with ya until you brought up the Buck Nighthawk. :D I'll take the 1095 Kabar over the 420HC Nighthawk. My experience with Bucks in general is that they don't do lateral stress well. The Nighthawk is one of the very few knives I've ever gotten rid of. Traded it straight up for a Becker Campanion.

FGYT

19-10-2009, 13:20

guess it all depends on the outlook of both styles of being outdoors

Bushcraft is living with and within the Natural world

Survival is fighting and using it till you get rescued and taken back home

Survival was the buzz word i nthe 80's now Bushcraft is the PC version :D

my Kukri and SAK where fine for all tasks until i realized i needed a 4" blade drop point full tang thingy and a GB Axe :twak:

skilled users can do mosttheings with most blades and definatly well enough to be comfey in the out doors though embelishing your Cheese board you just carved out with some intricate leave and vine carving is a little harder with a big rambo Knife

the Bushcraft knife helps bring the craft into it teh Woody is basically a Chunky woodwork carving tool etc

ATB

Duncan

Waldganger

17-03-2010, 12:49

One day I'll read this thread in its entirety. The first two pages were informative.

Ok, my response.

Urban - I carry this most days Emerson A131 (http://www.emersonknives.com/ECA/Pics/A131_ECA07_3.jpg). In an urban survival, I may have to cut seat belts, break glass, cut through plasterboard or similar. Not really make snares, shelter or fire. I have been practicing those skills with this knife anyway, because they demonstrate fine skills, as well as giving myself a firm understanding of the knife's capabilities. I plan on making orange scales for it so it can accompany me into the bush, and I can leave the scandi in my pack so as not to scare the sheeple.

On my pushbike I have my backpack. In there aside from waterproof clothes and water bottle I have my maxped pouch, in that there is a SAK, Bic, pen and pad, flashlight and batteries, whistle, lansky and schrade stockman. All sitting on a paracord belt (woven like the bracelets. I imagine around 12-15 meters)

Outdoors - Add all of the above plus my Custom Bushcrafter (http://backyardbushman.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/img_31941.jpg) (mine is natural micarta though) with firesteel. Add sleeping gear and cooking gear. Also would have either the Roselli Axe, or my Busse Fusion Battle Mistress (http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee128/Waldganger15/BattleMistress.jpg?t=126882793 4). After some weekend playing, my Mistress is the winner in the "make and hammer in tent pegs" category, it chops fairly evenly with the Roselli, plus has the added benefit of not risking damaging the handle on an overshot swing. Would be quite an easy task to make shelter and camp chairs etc with either choppers.

What I would want in a survival situation, would be my bushcrafter, and for meat and fine detail work, I have this case trapper (http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9900/dsc00779k.jpg) coming that will get a nice little crossdraw belt sheath.

I find that you should practice all your camp craft with your edc. As much as it feels like cheating on your favorite, you need to be able to do these skills with your edc. YOUR SURVIVAL KNIFE IS THE ONE YOU HAVE ON YOU

Like I was taught when I was a tacker

"Be Prepared" - Baden Powell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Motto)

Siberianfury

19-03-2010, 00:19

I think the worry over stick tangs is a bit unfounded.
I mean look at all the classic large blade knives out there.
Most of them are stick tangs.
Swords are generally stick tang, and they're meant for abuse.
Onto the size debate, While I like "zombiekillers" I find a smaller blade more useful, and with good technique I can easily take a 2" tree with a 4" blade.

i agree, stick tangs are undervalued, if they didnt work before people wouldnt have used them, look at every chopping tool/weapon throught history and i garanteee you most will have a stick tang, often alot thinner than found on your avarage leuku, the strenght of a stick tang is in the handle material, a solid bit of birch or antler will do the job perfectly.

Davey569

19-03-2010, 14:23

When I go out I make myself comfortable in the outdoors. I dont carve or make special platted cordage. What I use a knife for are simple tasks like splitting firewood or making traps. I choose a big (ish) knife and it does me fine. I can feather with it, and chop logs. If the job is too big for the knife then I use a folding saw. Theres no need to fell trees unless I want to build a log cabin then I will have other tools with me. firewood can be found on the ground and easily battoned into kindling. Also I carry a small opinel but never really use it. I even skin small game with a big knife. Woodlores to me are ugly. I can appreciate the work people put into them but I will never own one or any bushy blade for that matter. My knife works fine for what I do. But remember just because I dont carve, doesnt mean I dont know how. I just dont see the point when Im out on an expedition.

Waldganger

19-03-2010, 15:26

so what do you take Davey?

Davey569

19-03-2010, 16:17

At the moment a modified MoD survival knife.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3647/hpim0763z.jpg

But soon to be a Rat RC5. :)

The Welsh Bear

23-03-2010, 23:29

Hi,
Has any one been on a course in Wales by Wild Spirit Bushcraft?

http://www.bushcraftcourses.co.uk/

I'm looking for a knowledge course.

Thanks

Stevan

03-04-2010, 17:28

I did vote for survival knife.
But my survival knife is a bushcraft knife with a spine between 4 and 5 mm thick.
Maybe a secondary convex bevel on the scandigrind blade.
Not a longer knife, no serrations, no sawback or storage compartiment in the handle.
Just a bushcraft knife that is stronger built.

Regards, Stevan

PREPER

05-04-2010, 22:17

If the pole allowed I would have voted for both.
I try to choose a knife that would serve both purposes.
I am at the testing stage, it only been a year or so deciding. :dunno:
It's a good excuse to take more than one knife out to 'play' with :rolleyes:

PREPER................. :)

TinkyPete

15-04-2010, 18:35

I voted for a Bushcraft blade, and although I don't have a specialist one I have several different type of blades including survival knives and hunting knives, I tend to like well made/crafted blades that have a full tang and simple construction.

You get out of a knife what you put in. take care of your knife and it'll look after you, don't abuse it, a swiss army knife it not the best to baton with:) and I wouldn't fine wittle with a MOD survival knife:)

I think my next major knife purchase will be a Bernie, I have seen quite a few in people hands and they have to be one of the nicest knives I have seen, great workmanship and a true knife and they certainly seem to fit the bill, just got to save up for it now :)

PeterHW

18-04-2010, 20:10

Survival to me would be something in the UK that meets with our EDC legislation .... because if carrying a fixed blade I would need a specific reason for doing so .... if I am in that situation and know what my specific reason was I would be carrying a system of multiple tools according to my needs ....

For me a medium sized SAK which had blades and a wood saw but was not too bulky is my likely choice .... maybe combined with a UKPK as I like the quality of the fixed blade more than the SAK but I doubt I would be carrying both often ....

If I had a situation of "specific use" it would depend on what I was doing .... Bushcrafting would have a number of sharp tools .... a small fixed blade ... a folding saw ... and probably a SFA or a large knife such as a Khukri or Parang or a heavier chopping knife of which like the smaller bushcraft knives I have many and which I rotate or even take a few out with me on my enjoyment of comparing them .... in the never ending task of looking for what seems to work best. A task I never tire of .... :)

If out deer stalking probably a small fixed blade ... maybe if pigeon shooting a larger knife for building a hide .... but you get the idea ....

I would be suprised if anyone on this forum would just take the one belt knife if knowing they were going to be going to a "meet" or were going out to practise with a view to being in an overnight situation .... most probably have a "set up" which gets regularly packed and caters for chopping as well as delicate work.

For what it is worth after trying all manner of sizes of knives .... ( the bug got me bad and I own around 40 knives of all types and grinds ) I find the following general points to be true ....

I like a 4 to 5 inch blade best for smaller tasks and ideally with a hand filling grip ....

For "feel and skills" using the point of the knife .... after about 7 inches the "point" feels "remote" if working from the handle ....

You can do quite well with a larger knife by becoming proficient on choking up the blade and using a lanyard loop to help take the weight of the blade and roll the lanyard up towards your elbow .... but if you combine the size of the blade and peoples reaction to them and the irritation of carrying a large bladed knife on your belt when walking a good distance .... they tend to go into your backpack and so would a my SFA .... so large knives on belts are not really likely to happen for me in private life on an excursion into the "wilderness".... the exception being my webbing belt where I do carry a 8 or 9 inch blade which is for different reasons and in a different set up to that posed by the OP.

But if we were to consider situations of small private aircraft journeys say in Scandanavia etc where a possibility of a survival situation could emerge .... I would only be in the plane with my "set up" in a rucksack ....

If on a "commercial airline" ... well if you don't break any laws ... you won't have any knife with you.

Vehicles or anything else in the wilds .... same thing as the private aircraft journey .... and I expect everyone would be the same .... at least those who come on here ....

If anything holds true from everyone's experiences on here it is that "bushcraft/survival" is a lot better tackled with a range of tools than just settling for "one" .... and if you're switched on you know when you might need them.

Andy BB

28-04-2010, 01:39

Interesting! Particularly that few saw the need to address the original question. Reminds me of the punchline to the joke about the economist on the desert island, who, faced with a crate of baked bean tins, said "let's assume we have a tin-opener".

But being a pedantic sort of a guy, who hasn't hunted reindeer or moose, or been in the SFs and therefore can claim little practical expertise on the subject, one comment did catch my eye - that several "small" knives had been broken attempting to batten logs. and that brought me straight back to the original question.

For me, it would be a big knife -something like a genuine kukri. Why? Because a kukri can do delicate work if necessary (see the utube vid of a chef using a kukri in the kitchen), and can do much of the work of an axe into the bargain. and many on here would choose an axe over everything else if only allowed one tool - but that wasn't an option in the original question).

But the over-riding reason is for the aforementioned breaking of the small knives when taken out of their comfort zone - eg battening. A broken knife is effectively useless - so your sole knife has now disappeared - surely a disaster in any survival situation.

QED:)

ananix

28-04-2010, 12:31

To my mind the bushcraft blade is the popular alan wood/skoocum style whereas the survival blade is more like the f1 style

I have looked and looked and the only diffrence i really see is that one has a "scandi" grind an more of a droppoint blade and the other a flat grind with less of a droppoint.

I'm trying to avoid a lenghty discourse on the fine differences between the two and I suppose the bushcraft blade has a wider role in creating items whereas the survival blade tends to include the "hunting" element in it (skinning etc).

Maybe you should have gone for other type castings of knifes than "bushcraft" and "survival" that are very broad in definition unlike blade, handle, grind type or something like that.

To me hunting or finding and preparing food with my knife is a major part of bushcraft. So is it the gut hook and normal blade that makes a survival knife for you?

I agree that the bushcraft style is a survival knife in a given situation but if you had the choice?

To me my Kershaw deer hunter knife with blade grip (http://www.allaboutpocketknives.com/knife_store/images/product_images/30_23483_1265052879_1.JPG)is the perfect bushcraft knife and i would choose that over anything, but in your definition its a survival? So i would choose survival in your poll.

To me a survival knife is a comprimise between a bushcraft knife and a combat knife but deffently leaning more to the combat side with one or more of such features as, straight blade for stabin, raised bloodgrove to open wounds, increased mass to transfer energy, fingerguards for thrusting, no pomel for throwing, longer for penetration to organs, double edged (1/3 can do) to ease penetration, stronger but less sharp and so. As soon the knife is more of a weapon than a tool its a "survival" knife to me.

Normaly i see the term survival in regards to knifes not as in surviving in nature but surviving in enemy territorie! not spending time to find food prepare camp and cook while chilling with a pipe you carved and smoke some herbs you found wich is pretty much what i like to do oposit being hunted and fighting.

ged

28-04-2010, 14:46

If I had to choose just one item I'd take my trusty Tramontina machete. Eight quid brand new, it's done loads of work and it's still going strong with only minor damage apart from seven or eight years ago a large dog chewed the handle quite badly. You can see a little bit of the handle here:

http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/JOS/misc/guido_chewing.jpg

The reason for my choice is quite simple. If I don't know where I'm going to need to walk out from, I want to be able to hack my way through all kinds of vegetation if I have to; or as another poster said, maybe clear an area (or three, to send a signal). That's a lot more effort with a small blade. You can prepare food with a big blade, even if it is a bit awkward.

What's behind the question?

poddle

28-04-2010, 15:31

What's a bush craft knife and what is a survival knife?

Are they both not "just a knife"

I don't like the saw bits and stuff on a so called survival knife, a flat blade is all you need.

Siberianfury

28-04-2010, 16:36

What's a bush craft knife and what is a survival knife?

Are they both not "just a knife"

I don't like the saw bits and stuff on a so called survival knife, a flat blade is all you need.

Bushcraft knife:
woodlore
puukko
northwest
and similar types of knives

survival knife:
Fallkniven A1
KaBar
Mod Survival knife

Survival knives tend to be mainly used for chopping, bushcraft knives for cutting.

poddle

28-04-2010, 16:49

Given an ultimatum I would take a straight flat blade, It can be batoned if extra clout is needed.

ananix

28-04-2010, 16:50

Bushcraft knife:
woodlore
puukko
northwest
and similar types of knives

survival knife:
Fallkniven A1
KaBar
Mod Survival knife

Survival knives tend to be mainly used for chopping, bushcraft knives for cutting.

But the questioner specificly writes F1 not A1, a total bushcraft knive in my head, i agree the A1 is a survival knife in my head, primarily fit for chopping (slashing) and fighting but can work for bushcraft as well. The others its the otherway around.

Siberianfury

28-04-2010, 17:38

But the questioner specificly writes F1 not A1, a total bushcraft knive in my head, i agree the A1 is a survival knife in my head, primarily fit for chopping (slashing) and fighting but can work for bushcraft as well. The others its the otherway around.

survival and bushcraft knives can both be used for the same tasks, they just do it in different styles.

ananix

28-04-2010, 17:41

survival and bushcraft knives can both be used for the same tasks, they just do it in different styles.

huh how is that diffrent from what you quote??

What im talking about is that now that both F1 and A1 is (for you) consideret survival, what is the diffrense then between a survival knife and others??

F1 is clearly intended survival of pilots, which most often dont fly hostile mission oposit infantery, if you down as a pilot you are more likely to do so in a friendly but deserted envioment and the survival is more about living in nature staying put onto help reaches you A1 is intended for infantery use where survival is more about you reaching help/friendly terrirorie by all means. No food no shelter no bushcraft.

In my head they there for made the F1 more of a bushcraft knive (more tool than weapon) than survival knive and the A1 as a survival knife (more weapon than tool).

Please read my earlier posts in this threat before questions or lections.

poddle

28-04-2010, 17:48

huh how is that diffrent from what you quote??

I don't understand what you mean?

ananix

28-04-2010, 17:53

I don't understand what you mean?

I mean he wrote the same as he quoted, i see no diffrence in what he wrote and what i did.

poddle

28-04-2010, 20:22

Eh???????????:confused:

ananix

28-04-2010, 20:59

Eh???????????:confused:

Post 161 by sibirianfury

Maybe the confusion is you think it was directed at you?? but i make sure to qoute who i answer so try and check it out again.

poddle

28-04-2010, 22:25

No I know it's not directed at me, I just got lost:lmao:, and still am. I give up:lmao:

jonajuna

28-04-2010, 22:52

huh how is that diffrent from what you quote??

What im talking about is that now that both F1 and A1 is (for you) consideret survival, what is the diffrense then between a survival knife and others??.

the question is where is the line that survival becomes bushcraft and bushcraft becomes survival?

similar skills, different context

in a true survival situation, id just want a knife with enough bulk it will still work after shed loads of abuse

mod type survival knife will do more jobs required to survive or do them better than any sub 4inch knife

you dont need a wooden spoon to survive, but you will need to cut serious amounts of wood initially for shelter and constantly thereafter for fire

wizard

29-04-2010, 03:17

This is truly an interesting thread! It is clear that opinions vary on knives, always an interesting topic.

Personally, I see a "survival knife" in my mind not as one for a woodsman to carry on a campout but more as a military tool for combat survival. That often means making camoflauge material, shelters or personal defense/offense. When a vendor applies the name "survival" to a knife it implies a tool for use as an aid to surviving the wild. It also implies a military designation, if you will, as a military tool for combat survival.

Truly any study knife is capable to use to make feather sticks, split small wood or help with shelter building, spoon making, trap making and so on. Some designs or styles are just better suited to the purpose. A large blade offers more cutting surface and more weight to swing when chopping. It also could be a better weapon, if needed.

As a retired US Army soldier I mainly carried a larger knife for military duty. Blade from 6 to 7 inches. I also carried a machete in appropriate settings because a 7 inch blade was inadequate.

As a person that likes to trek and camp in the wilderness as much as possible, I carry a knife I consider matched to that purpose. Maximum blade is 5 inches, but is usually 4 to 4 &1/2 inches in length. A Woodlore clone or a Puukko is perfect to my taste. A Mora is always in my daypack in case I need a good knife, and on a dayhike I usually have little need for a knife and a Mora being light and sturdy suits my needs.

One thing I can say about many people in the USA, we mostly grew up with a knife style in our mind about the same as a Marbles or a Buck Special. In my early years, 1950's, '60's and '70's knives known commonly as "hunting knives" were popular, we used them for camping, hunting, fishing and so on. When I was a Scout we had a fixed blade Scout knife that was of that style. So, it is as much tradition as anything that this small Bowie style is still somewhat popular.

If you take a knife like the USAF Survival Knife with it's 5 inch blade and try to actually use it as a camping/bush knife it is awkward and made of lousy steel and is almost impossible to sharpen into a functional tool. Loads of them are still sold every year because they are called a "survival knife".

It is a bit like the word "tactical". If you have a product and you apply the term tactical to it, it will sell better and probably for more money. No idea why that is, but I believe it to be true.

Bottom line, a knife is as personal a choice as a spouse. You should like the way it looks, feels and functions. More importantly you have to be comfortable with your choice.

Cheers!

silentpaddler

01-05-2010, 21:11

I have noticed that the topic of knives comes up a LOT on this forum, and
debates go on in great detail about all the technical aspects one could imagine; but to me a knife is a knife....sure, I make sure I take one with me
on a camping trip,
but personally I don't know or care what type of knife I have or at how
many degrees the blade is sharpened, or what the handle is made of...
10,000 years ago people made do with a chunk of flint, so I figure just
about anything is better than that, yay?

poddle

01-05-2010, 23:58

As long as it holds an edge for a few days it will be fine.

It has to fit the hand of course as prolonged use will soon bring out blisters or give you a sore hand.

Tadpole

23-06-2010, 17:45

I think that saying "chunk of flint" is over oversimplifying thing a heck of a lot, any old chunk of flint now is just that, but a properly knapped blade made of flint as would have been carried way back then would have been as sharp and as useful as a modern surgeon’s scalpel. A well made flint axe will have a tree down in the same way an axe would, albeit slower, and you have to be more careful with it.
A piece of worked flint made by someone who knows what he is doing is as far from “a Chunk of flint” as a flat ground bar of tool steel is from a handmade knife.
Take a bad knife in to a place where your life depends on it, is asking for it to fail. Life is too important to rely on an old 'butter knife' for a survival tool.

ProjeKtWEREWOLF

17-07-2010, 07:23

I bought a CRKT Partner many years ago and it has done me just fine. it has heavy drop point blade which keeps a good edge. It does a fairly good job so I don't feel the need to go and buy something else.

Laurentius

19-07-2010, 21:17

Well if you look at things logically, survival means, "Every man for himself and the Devil take the Hindmost" to steal a phrase from Werner Herzog. That is to say "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" with the rider "If you can get away with it"

When the proverbial hits the fan, there is going to be no law and order you will have to make your own and the risk will not be a prison sentence but death, but there you go. Wasn't it always that way :)

Survival has nothing to do with law, it is pure instinct, but bushcraft is something else, in our leisure we should obey the law.

Outdoor_Guy

24-07-2010, 06:34

I guess it depends on how long your "lost" for... For instance I can get by for a few days with whats in my "Survival" tin... maybe longer... but after that only "Bushcraft" skills would keep me alive.

hanzo

28-07-2010, 07:10

Whatever knife you have with you when you end up in a survival situation would be your survival knife. If you are camping or bushcrafting, then it's your bushcrafting knife. If the survival situation occurs during your every day life, then it's probably going to be whatever pocket knife you have one you or whatever you can get your hands on.

I am still trying to figure out what the terms really mean.

If I was in an urban environment survival situation, maybe a multi-tool would be best. If it is in the wilderness, I would want a machete. That's assuming there is a one item limit. My 2 cents.

TaTanka

29-07-2010, 05:58

Assuming no limit I'd have 3 knives on my person. All knives that I would consider to be both bushcraft and survival knives as so many skills over lap. I'd have my Russell Green River knife, my Uncle Henry Hunter, and my Victorinox, that I dont' remember the model as I"ve been carrying it for about 16 years now. If only allowed one I'd take the Green river is hefty enough to baton with but has a thin enough blade to do any fine work I need done.

Timbo

04-08-2010, 12:54

survival situation I'm gonna want an A1 over my F1 (which I love) I think the additional chopping/batoning capability of the slightly larger knife would be more practical, smaller blades are better for intricate work which you aren't really going to need to do a whole lot of when trying to survive.

ProjeKtWEREWOLF

05-08-2010, 22:59

I have my beady eye on the Cold Steel TrailMaster.
improbably huge Bowie knife. Solid though.

Burbidge

06-08-2010, 15:16

I would go with a kukhri which will cover all bases as a large chopping tool coupled with a small whittling/skinning knife and a sharpener all in one handy package!

BarryG

06-08-2010, 23:38

I think there is no difference between the two. Its purely definition. My survival knife happens to be the shape of a bushcraft knife. My definition of a bushcraft knife.

Minotaur

07-08-2010, 12:17

The problem here is the question is flawed.

A survival knife is 'the knife', so I would go for a Ka Bar to be honest.

On the other hand, my trusty Mora, Billhook, Leatherman Charge XTI, and saw, do my Bushcraft tasks with ease.

The problem is a survival knife has to be all things, it might not do them well, but it has to be able to do them.

A Bushcraft knife just has to be very good at certain tasks, because I have other items to take up the slack.

Ref hunting, skining etc with a Bushcraft knife. They rock in the kitchen, could get rid of all my other knifes but for the bread knife. Are not moras actually advertised as butcher knifes? Am I missing something here?

iamasmith

22-09-2010, 23:50

Is the question really more about what tool you would consider invaluable and the best to have on you if caught in the wilds with little else? Many have answered so and my answer would by a good sharp smallish Axe, like my GB SFA.

If I had that though I would probably also have my BG Bushcrafter which I consider a superior tool for many tasks but I could get along with just the Axe for important tasks. I really don't know what practical advantage a long 'hunting knife' has over an Axe in a survival situation other than it might have been more compact and easier to pack. A lot of these so called 'survival knives' seem to be utility combat knives which the forces are more familiar with possibly.

Personally I grew up with Axes and am familiar with them. My SFA is an extra dimension again on the felling Axe I had to split wood with as a kid too. I could prep game with it, carve notches etc. I'm sure I can make fig-4 traps with it etc. I would love to have my Bushcrafter along though because it's easier for the finer work and the ability to crowd over a blade for intricate stuff maybe handy. I'm not sure that you would get that dexterity out of a 'Hunting Knife'.

Many folks seem to have the same thoughts about Parangs as Axes and can attribute good and different use to each part of the blade. The closest I've ever got to using something like that is a Billhook so I'd stick to something I know how to use. I'll still take the SFA as the single all rounder if I can only carry one thing but if I'm pushed for space I'll have my BG Bushcrafter ^^

mcbrideseanm

27-09-2010, 16:15

When talking about knives, I fail to see a difference between survival and bushcraft. In the US we have a group that calls themselves Survivalists. They practice bushcraft as a subset of skills required for surviving when society fails and we're all on our own. They also do things like practice close quarters combat shooting, knife fighting, etc. When it gets down to it, the likelihood of the entire world as we know it coming to an end is very small. However, the likelihood that I may get lost on a hiking trip and have to make camp for the night is relatively higher. Or maybe I'll be at my mother-in-laws house and her butcher knives will be horrendously dull. I prefer a bushcraft type of knife for everyday carry because it is a good size and design for doing many tasks passibly well. I have quite a few really good survival knives (read that as full tang combat knives). They are really good for their purpose and can be used for most, if not all, bushcraft tasks. However, I can't carry a combat knife with a 7 inch blade on my belt to the grocery store. It makes people nervous. The bushcraft knife, especially an attractive and classy looking one with nice scales and bolster, worn in a way that isn't too obvious is a good blade to carry every day. It's important that it's classy looking because, believe it or not, a nice looking knife is less threatening than a black parkerized finished dagger and is less likely upset peoples' sensitivities. Finally, if you can't take it everywhere you go, then it probably won't be on your belt or in your pocket when you need it. In that case, I hope you know how to make a knife from a piece of flint or obsidian.

jamesraykenney

25-10-2010, 00:52

OK, sorry if I was unclear and went off-topic. Small knife is my answer to the question, to answer the "why?'' part involves some explanation of why I might be there in the first place as this influences my selection of equipment. The only way I can honestly answer a 'hypothetical' question like the OP's is to include my personal assessment as to how likely I am to end up in any given scenario.

Some of these threads do go shooting off in the wrong direction and I apologise if that has been my contribution.

How about this:
You are kidnapped and told you are going to be dropped somewhere in the wilderness with nothing but ONE knife, and are given the choice between a 'survival' knife and a bushcraft knife...
If you argue about how that is not realistic, then he will either kill you or drop you off without any knife...:D
Now, THAT is what I interpret the thread to be about... Though then people will probably start on about how they would never be kidnapped in the first place, or how they would escape before they were dropped off and there goes the thread again...

Toddy

25-10-2010, 01:03

Soooooo, there I am, kidnapped :rolleyes: and he offers me a 'bushcraft' knife and a 'survival' knife.......

which two are those then ?
and which wilderness ?

Tooo many variables.

cheers,
Toddy

viprofferi

25-10-2010, 08:50

What I see before me here is generally a reflective dilemma where the suggested image of an inanimate object produces a subjective response.
I am certain that my opinion will rouse considerable scorn, and it may even provoke an opinion of my grave ignorance concerning bush-craft.
A bushcraft knife is practically the same as a survival knife. It is a knife with a blade of moderate length, such as 4 inches for example, with one blade. Most often the blade will be smooth, though in some cases it may have a segment that is serrated.
There are also likely to be some who think of either knife as always being serrated. Whether the blade is serrated of smooth in its practical use dictates the particulars of its usefulness in various specific applications. However, whether it is titled a bushcraft, survival, or some other name knife has mostly to do with the image the name provokes in one's mind. For those who think of themselves as bushcrafters, identifying their knife as a bushcraft knife is favourable. On the other hand, an idividual who thinks of themselves as a survivalist may term it a survival knife. Likewise, one who thinks of their image as being of an outdoors person may call their knife an outdoor knife.
I think this discussion would benefit from the establishment of detailed descriptions of what is meant specifically by the names used.
What type of knife do you think of when you say bush knife, or survival knife?

sapper1

25-10-2010, 09:17

Cat and pigeons here.
If I am in a survival situation and I have a bushcraft knife am I allowed to use it,and vice versa if I go to the woods to practice bushcraft and find that I have packed my survival knife ,do I have to go home?

Toddy

25-10-2010, 09:26

:D

cheers,
M

Siberianfury

08-11-2010, 22:27

I spent a month living in the woods in a Bender, and the most versitle tool i have found would be a leuku hands down.
that would be a one tool option, idealy i would have a leuku, a 4" fixed knife, a saw and a hatchet.

Ronnie

09-11-2010, 10:20

I always find that there are more things I can't do with a small blade, than I can't do with a large blade. Apologies for the bushcraft blasphemy :pokenest:

Everything Mac

17-11-2010, 18:18

I've only scanned through this thread so I apologise if I've missed it but...........

Can some one please define for me the difference between a survival knife and a bushcraft knife?

it seems to me that a knife is a knife. - as long as it is sharp and cuts what I require it to then that'll do me.

Andy

santaman2000

28-01-2011, 22:00

It depends on how you get onto the "survival" situation. If you just get lost for a short while then bushcraft is survival. On the other hand if your situation arises out of something like a plane crash or watercraft accident leaving you stranded until help arrives then the survival knife (particularly something like the Pilot's Survival Knife" might be handy. Those saw teeth on the back were actually designed to cut through aircraft aluminum to help you either escape the mangled aircraft or to salvage bits for use. Likewise the overly heavy butt is there to crack the plastic canopies and windows. Also this kinfe can be easily tied to a wooden shaft for use as a fish spear. However in the end survival=bushcraft assuming your not talking about military S.E.R.E. (Survival-Evasion-Resistance-Escape) and I don't think you are by the way you framed the question..

Actually I'd rather have a small axe

santaman2000

28-01-2011, 22:28

Everything Mac

29-01-2011, 02:46

I agree with most of what you have to say except you assessment of the Pilot's Survival Knife. I have never found it to be awkward for any task. It is made of 1095 carbon steel which is very close to #1 tool steel. The very steel all good knives were made from before stainless became popular. Stainless is actually the more useless blade material for anything other than a dedicated diving knife. Carbon steel always has been the steel of choice for durability without excess hardness (such hardness as in stainless makes them the hardest to sharpen and the brittlest).

Eh?

I might of had a few but ...eh?

Waldganger

29-01-2011, 13:22

survival knife is the one you have with you.

Bushcraft is the one you take for a somewhat planned trip. Designed for what you intend.

To me a survival knife must be able to chop, slice, hack, stab and skin. You should be able to fillet a fish, stab a wild boar, chop down a small tree for shelter, skin a rabbit, and as a last resort, fight with it. I know you can make a shelter by baton and 3" blade, but a 10" job would do it a bit quicker. Also sometimes you wouldn't have time for such finesse.

At the end of the day you are better off with a knife than without one, I make a point of carrying a knife everywhere, and I hope that it never has to become my survival knife because I'd hate to have to chop down a tree with my 400+ custom folding hunter.

santaman2000

03-03-2011, 16:54

Eh?

I might of had a few but ...eh?

Don't understand your question. What are you asking?

Sidra

13-03-2011, 04:42

Bushcraft you plan :). A bushcraft knife is a knife of your choice. It's a knife where you feel comfortable with. Survival situation's happen:yikes:.(look at Japan) A survival knife is the knife you use in a life-threatening situation (something you cary with you or you'll find on the way). I'll alway's have my leatherman wave with me.
I know my kukri is much better for chopping but I can't walk arround all day with a blade like that on my belt...just in case!:nono: In Western Europe ( and some other places )
bushcraft = school, survival = exam

Xunil

13-03-2011, 07:44

I've posted this elsewhere but I simply cannot separate many of the techniques and at least some of the mindset of survival from bushcraft, but I think folks overlook some of the more salient points here:

If you are carrying an outdoors knife then you better be in an outdoorsy situation. If you have one anywhere else (bank, school, university, office, etc, etc) then sooner or later you're going to get lifted and the local law enforcement agency will take a pretty dim view of any "just in case" argument you care to put forward.

Bushcraft is a leisure activity where you have the luxury of choice.

Survival is when circumstance catches you out, and not all survival situations need to entail a "dumped in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness" scenario.

Example 1: you go out for a weekend bushcraft wander. The weather catches you out, you got badly turned around and either didn't bring a map or managed somehow to lose it. Your bushcraft weekend has now become a low-level survival situation.

Example 2: same as Example 1 except serious weather blows in (insert any combination of wind and pouring rain, sleet, hail or snow in here and mix to taste) and your bushcraft weekend has become a much higher risk survival situation.

In either of the above two examples the kit you have with you and what you have between your ears should get you out the other end in one piece.

Example 3: select from any of the following (or create your own scenario) plane crash, shipwreck, fire in the lower stories of a skyscraper coupled with a power outage while you are stuck at or near the top of the building, a summer walk in the Lake District in excellent weather with little or no support gear and the wind gets up and a blizzard starts to blow (happens every year), swept off the rocks while sea fishing, Red Dawn style enemy invasion, day of the dead zombie hoards, blah, blah, etc, etc,.

Example 3 is hwere things start to take shape - this is survival in any one of a number of environments where you could be close to help but unable to reach it, or miles from anywhere without even knowing which country you are in. You could be injured (hopefully not) you could have other survivors in either small or even very large numbers, which changes the entire dynamic and presents its own problems and potential benefits, and you are unlikely to have one or more favourite cutting tools on your person. In fact, you should count yourself lucky if, after doing a quick inventory, you find you are in full possession of all of your limbs and motor functions.

By definition you ought to count yourself the luckiest person alive to have one or more cutting tools and any other kit if you find yourself in a true survival situation.

Many of the skills and at least some of the mindset have so many crossover points I find it more or less impossible to separate survival from bushcraft.

20 years or so ago if you said you did bushcraft nobody had a clue what you were going on about. If you said you did survival training you normally had to add a rider that you weren't a paramilitary nut to dispense with the first mental image that comes to mind when you mention the word survival. I used to teach and write about survival back then and it was always fascinating to watch how the meaning of so simple a word became so perverted over time :(

Strange how simple words manage to get so twisted...

Survival: drop dead grateful for any cutting tool, of any sort, with any brand name etched onto it.

Bushcraft: Kukri, machete or medium axe (not necessarily in that order) and a small, thin and sharp knife would be great, thanks.

Kitting out your vehicle, plane, boat et al with survival gear makes a ton of sense.

Wandering around kitted up to the gills with personal survival gear is guaranteed to get you into hot water with the authorities at some point, so good luck with that...

I'll get my coat...

Everything Mac

13-03-2011, 11:55

Don't understand your question. What are you asking?

your previous post makes no sense - even a month later and sober.

santaman2000

13-03-2011, 16:11

your previous post makes no sense - even a month later and sober.

I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that! I'll try though:

1.Stainless makes a poor knife blade; it's brittle and hard to sharpen
2. 1095 carbon steel is a high carbon steel which is resilient and easy to sharpen
3. The Pilot's Survival knife is made of 1095 carbon steel. 1095 carbon steel is almost identical to #1 tool steel
4. #1 tool steel is what tools such as files and saw blades are made from
5. Old files and saw blades were the most prized items for a blacksmith to use to forge knives with until raw iron became easily and cheaply obtainable
6. 1095 carbon steel was the favorite steel for knife makers and users when it became easily available in the 19th century
7. Stainless became popular after WWII for specialty knives such as diving and later spread because it was "cool"
8. The Pilot's Survival Knife is in no way awkward; it works quite well for anything it's called on to do except it's to small for really heavy work

Everything Mac

13-03-2011, 21:46

I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that! I'll try though:

1.Stainless makes a poor knife blade; it's brittle and hard to sharpen
2. 1095 carbon steel is a high carbon steel which is resilient and easy to sharpen
3. The Pilot's Survival knife is made of 1095 carbon steel. 1095 carbon steel is almost identical to #1 tool steel
4. #1 tool steel is what tools such as files and saw blades are made from
5. Old files and saw blades were the most prized items for a blacksmith to use to forge knives with until raw iron became easily and cheaply obtainable
6. 1095 carbon steel was the favorite steel for knife makers and users when it became easily available in the 19th century
7. Stainless became popular after WWII for specialty knives such as diving and later spread because it was "cool"
8. The Pilot's Survival Knife is in no way awkward; it works quite well for anything it's called on to do except it's to small for really heavy work

I'm sorry but as far as I know this is simply not the case.

Stainless steel is as far as I'm aware not brittle.

Brittleness is a result of high hardness - stainless steels generally do not obtain the same hardness that carbon steel can. ergo a carbon steel blade is generally more brittle. - Stainless sacrifices hardness for corrosion resistance. (high chromium % required)

1095 is a good steel - bog standard carbon steel.

by #1 do you mean 01? - 01 is again a good steel and is very popular for blades these days.
- either way it is not what files or saw blades are made from.

Files are made from W1 -a very good steel which make very tough blades (as it happens this is my favourite steel)
Saw blades - depending on what type of saw you are referring to are made from a multitude steels including L-6 and IIRC 15n20
hacksaw blades are often made from highspeed steels - or often these days bi-metal. again not 01.

I don't understand your point regarding smiths using old files until "Raw iron" became available. - are you suggesting that they used old files for knives then switched over to using iron to forge knives? - please spell out you reply for this point in particular.

Cheers

santaman2000

14-03-2011, 13:49

I'm sorry but as far as I know this is simply not the case.

Stainless steel is as far as I'm aware not brittle.

Brittleness is a result of high hardness - stainless steels generally do not obtain the same hardness that carbon steel can. ergo a carbon steel blade is generally more brittle. - Stainless sacrifices hardness for corrosion resistance. (high chromium % required)

1095 is a good steel - bog standard carbon steel.

by #1 do you mean 01? - 01 is again a good steel and is very popular for blades these days.
- either way it is not what files or saw blades are made from.

Files are made from W1 -a very good steel which make very tough blades (as it happens this is my favourite steel)
Saw blades - depending on what type of saw you are referring to are made from a multitude steels including L-6 and IIRC 15n20
hacksaw blades are often made from highspeed steels - or often these days bi-metal. again not 01.

I don't understand your point regarding smiths using old files until "Raw iron" became available. - are you suggesting that they used old files for knives then switched over to using iron to forge knives? - please spell out you reply for this point in particular.

Cheers
True enough stainless by and of itself isn't brittle. When I was still an aviation metal-smith we used 301 stainless extensively on the F4 Phantom and it was very easy to form (easier than most of the aliminum alloys actually). The stainless used in knife blades however is usually (if not always) hardened to a britttle state though.

Possibly what we call #1 tool is the same as you refer to as W1; I'm not as familiar with European classification

Yes old saw blades (sawmill saws mostly) and files were used extensively here by blacksmiths for knife making until after the revolution. The colonies weren't allowed to import raw materials and weren't supposed to manufacture anything that could be exported since their reason for existence was to supply raw materials for British industry. After that they began importing iron and forging their own steel. It was common early on to leave a few of the file teeth showing at the back of the knife blade as evidence of where the steel was obtained because the customers usually preferred this source also.