View Full Version : Traditional Scottish Clothing
anyone know?
Kilt etc...?
If i was to go trekking in Scotland 1000 years ago what would i be wearing?
Thanks
sandbender
17-03-2009, 10:43
Yid be naked laddie!
But seriously, the whole 'how old is the kilt thing' is much debated on the internet and opinion seems to favor it being a relatively recent addition (1500's).
Here are some links which may answer your questions, if not hopefully Toddy will be along shortly :D
http://www.kiltsdirect.com/story_kilt/story,1
http://home.earthlink.net/~rggsibiba/html/galloglas/gallohist.html
http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Highland_Dress/Weaponry.asp
http://medievalscotland.org/postings/periodbeltedplaid.shtml
http://www.clans.org.uk/kilts_3.html
And some (romanticized) pics...
1 (http://tv.animare.hu/i/j/0018/33/a/2.jpg) 2 (http://tv.animare.hu/i/j/0018/33/a/10.jpg) 3 (http://tv.animare.hu/i/j/0018/33/a/12.jpg) 4 (http://tv.animare.hu/i/j/0018/33/a/6.jpg)
:D
BorderReiver
17-03-2009, 10:44
There you go (http://www.tartansauthority.com/Web/Site/Highland_Dress/Highland_Dress.asp):)
BorderReiver
17-03-2009, 10:45
Yid be naked laddie
:D
Only if you were charging into battle.:p
I will be interested to hear what people have to say on this, but a couple of thoughts. It was much warmer in Scotland 1000 years ago, nearly all woodland and only a small number of people would be wearing kilts as they were restricted to the small population of people living in the highlands.
Indeed I'm not too sure that kilts existed 1000 years ago and I suspect it would be some sort of trousers with wool cloak looking not too disimilar to what we think of Vikings wearing.
At least for those who actually travelled anywhere taking sheep or cattle to market, which were the major Scottish exports at the time. Which I think was then all spent on importing french wine !!!
But Scottish history is gloriously confusing, and I will be very interested to hear some insights into this.
Graham
All the evidences we have lead us to believe that it was a tunic of at least knee length, belted at the waist and a cloak of some kind.
We know that hose and shoes existed, and were worn, but how frequently and by what proportion of the population, we don't know.
Tunics, layered are very comfortable, can be made with no waste of fabric, and from linen, nettle and wool which all well suit our climate.
If hose are cut out across the diagonal of the grain of the fabric, they pull up snuggly, fitting closely to the leg.
I can show the process that takes a square of linen cloth and turns it into a breechclout that develops into braies..........think boxers and you won't be far wrong.
We have evidences for a leather shirt from Loch Glashan crannog, again no idea how common these were though.
Looking at people all you might have seen was someone wearing trews and a tunic and cloak.
We have no evidences for the kilt until much later, and when we do it's worn on top of that same tunic and belted in place. Very practical in a wet and windy environment :)
cheers,
Toddy
sandbender
17-03-2009, 11:27
Only if you were charging into battle.:p
Indeed, a féileadh mor (great kilt) is very heavy and it would be best to lay it aside before charging into battle.
:D
Indeed, a féileadh mor (great kilt) is very heavy and it would be best to lay it aside before charging into battle.
:D
Surely it is psychologically difficult to cahrge into battle without anything on?
Might be alarming to the other side of course but frankly I'd feel nekkid and vulnerable (without my M16, that is:) )
It's been going on for an awful long time. The Romans and Greeks commented on this Celtic custom.
Then there's also the woad debate :dunno:
"Ancient Briton never hit on anything as good as woad to sit on......" :D
cheers,
Toddy
We have no evidences for the kilt until much later, and when we do it's worn on top of that same tunic and belted in place. Very practical in a wet and windy environment :)
Toddy,
Possibly a Scottish Match Coat?
Do you have any links or references to this sort of thing, scottish clothing design, not just 1000 years ago, but dealing with the sort of the thing the Drovers might have worn or other Scottish people with life styles that would need them to wear bushcrafty clothing.
Thanks,
Graham
gregorach
17-03-2009, 11:52
Well, the whole "sky-clad into battle" thing is quite a bit earlier, and based on some possibly unreliable sources... But it apparently scared the bejesus out of the Romans.
Of course, whenever wondering about "traditional" Scottish anything, the first problem is "What exactly do you mean by Scotland or Scottish?" Scotland didn't exist in any form really until the unification of Pictland and Dalriada in the 8th Century, and even then there were very extensive areas of what we now call Scotland which were separate polities until much later - Sutherland was more Viking, and the Lowlands were largely Anlgo-Saxon (at least they were after the collapse of the Goddodin and the expansion of Bernica - with the exception of Strathclyde, which was a different beast again).
As ever, the best answer is "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..." ;)
BorderReiver
17-03-2009, 11:55
Surely it is psychologically difficult to cahrge into battle without anything on?
Might be alarming to the other side of course but frankly I'd feel nekkid and vulnerable (without my M16, that is:) )
Free, unhindered movement would have been very important in the type of combat they engaged in. Deep wounds would not be contaminated with bits of clothing either.
Also, clothes were hard to come by and expensive, no point in getting them ruined.:p
calibanzwei
17-03-2009, 12:09
Hehe - Devils In Skirts! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carry_On_up_the_Khyber#3rd_Foo t_and_Mouth_Regiment)
sandbender
17-03-2009, 13:00
Surely it is psychologically difficult to cahrge into battle without anything on?
Might be alarming to the other side of course but frankly I'd feel nekkid and vulnerable
You'd still have your shirt (sark) on :)
Drovers are later on really, but those heavy coats are well known by the late 1600's.
However, this Amazon link shows the front cover adorned by our own Ian Deveney (Monarch) and Andy Birrell (drew1166) :D
I made the patterns for their sarks, waistcoats, jackets, bonnets, hose.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=bare+arsed+banditti&x=10&y=15
cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
Thanks for the link, I was only mentioing the drovers as they were likely to be travelling across distances in a range of weathers, and hence might show some insights in "Scottish" outdoor clothing.
I've never really fully unerstood why we look to N America so much for traditional outdoor clothing and look so little into our own clothing history.
Having said that, you might be an exception to this.
Graham
I do so agree :D Northern European clothing styles, materials and cuts are well understood, though sometimes we struggle to say exactly where and when.......like bellbottoms and tank tops are 20th century but where did the Fair Isle vest of the twenties fit in ?
Basically, at any period, there's the foundation kit that a farm labourer might wear. In better quality fabrics that's still the clothing of the better off, but they might add on fashion dictated layers, jewellery and adornments, and fancy headgear.
The only problem with the traditional clothing of Northern Europe is that it can be inclined to make us look like extras from a Robin Hood or Viking film :rolleyes: and we'd certainly miss the fastenings like zips and elastic and velcro :)
Funnily enough many bushcrafters find wearing natural fibre fabrics to be the most sensible and comfortable clothing when out and about.
The only exception is cotton, for much though I find my jeans comfortable, it's a thirsty cloth and stays wet and cold if it gets soaked :( Ventile is so tightly woven that it is quiet and breathable in use and that largely overcomes these issues.
cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
Well, you could do worse than looking like an extra from Robin Hood/Viking film !!
I have gone full circle with my clothing. From natural (cos that is pretty well all there was when I was a lad) to high-tech super lightweight and back to natural materials.
I was also thinking of making some clothes but was going to investigate Scottish/N.European designs for inspiration, hence my interest in this question here, except I am interested in almost any period.
However, I'm not a purist in this so happy enough to use zips if that seems appropriate, but velcro I hate.
Graham
Well, the simplest is the "Neolithic cut", and then comes the Drindle. Both of these are incredibly practical, no waste, patterns. If they are combined with a hood with a shoulder piece they'll suit anything from hills to howling gales.
I keep threatening to draw these out and load them on the forum for folks to make their own.
I'll see what I can come up with :D
Zips are an excellent innovation, and elastic is just so useful, but velcro ? I know it's useful but it's messy, noisy, hard stuff :(
cheers,
Toddy
Toddy,
It would be good to see some patterns, the dutch army blankets are almost like felted wool they are so dense and I am constantly threatening to cut mine up and make sort of replacement for my fleece. We also have several pieces of tweed looking to be made into something. It would be nice to feel they were based on something with historical roots.
Velcro is just so horrible, it can be useful when you need something semi-permanently stuck to together, but for pockets or flaps over jacket zips I hate it.
Mmmm just been told by my wife that a drindle is a skirt, so rather less interested in a pattern for that one :-)
Graham
Celt_Ginger
17-03-2009, 16:47
You see! It took the Irish to sort out Scotland :) . the Scotti were an Irish tribe from the North of Ireland. Scott is still a common family name and the "Dalriada" area and connection are very much in evidence around North Antrim. Happy st Patricks day to you all by the way.
Well, the whole "sky-clad into battle" thing is quite a bit earlier, and based on some possibly unreliable sources... But it apparently scared the bejesus out of the Romans.
Of course, whenever wondering about "traditional" Scottish anything, the first problem is "What exactly do you mean by Scotland or Scottish?" Scotland didn't exist in any form really until the unification of Pictland and Dalriada in the 8th Century, and even then there were very extensive areas of what we now call Scotland which were separate polities until much later - Sutherland was more Viking, and the Lowlands were largely Anlgo-Saxon (at least they were after the collapse of the Goddodin and the expansion of Bernica - with the exception of Strathclyde, which was a different beast again).
As ever, the best answer is "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that..." ;)
Graham_S
17-03-2009, 17:00
I'm sure I read/heard somewhere that the latest thinking is that the tribes moved to Ireland from Scotland, then back again.
I expect Toddy'll be along in a minute to correct me though ;)
Toddy,
Mmmm just been told by my wife that a drindle is a skirt, so rather less interested in a pattern for that one :-)
Graham
It's also the name given to the patten style of shirt/ blouse that develops into the Swanndri :D
Basically it's a tabard with side panels, sleeves and an underarm gusset added.
cheers,
Toddy
Celt Ginger .....Happy St.Patrick's day..........you know he's supposed to be a Scotsman from Galloway ? :D
I think the Scotti were the people of the sea coasts and adjacent hinterlands either side of that top bit of the Irish Sea and N. Atlantic. We can see you and you can see us.To a seagoing folks that distance is just visiting family. :D Graham_S's on the nail with his comment, according to the archaeology.
gregorach
17-03-2009, 17:05
You see! It took the Irish to sort out Scotland :) . the Scotti were an Irish tribe from the North of Ireland. Scott is still a common family name and the "Dalriada" area and connection are very much in evidence around North Antrim. Happy st Patricks day to you all by the way.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that... ;)
As far as my understanding goes, I believe that to ask whether the Scotti and / or the Gaels of Dalriada were "Scots" or "Irish" is a misleading question. They were a coastal people based around the northern end of the Irish Sea - the strait was the centre of their domain, the thing that brought them together, not a boundary as we see it today. The Plain of Manannan was more bountiful and easier to traverse than the land was, so that's what their community was based around.
EDIT: I see both Graham_S and Toddy beat me to it...
It's also the name given to the patten style of shirt/ blouse that develops into the Swanndri :D
Basically it's a tabard with side panels, sleeves and an underarm gusset added.
Ahh, that sounds good as well then :-)
Graham
Sisyphus
17-03-2009, 17:43
I'm pretty sure a tartan bonnet with a fake ginger wig sown into the back of it was traditional hiking gear back then...
I was always under the impression that a lot of what is considered "traditional" scottish dress today is all from the last 300 years or so and bears no relation to what the average scot would have worn. A match coat definately sounds much more like it.
I'm scottish but I wouldn't be seen dead in a kilt.
forestwalker
17-03-2009, 18:21
Well, you could do worse than looking like an extra from Robin Hood/Viking film !!
I have gone full circle with my clothing. From natural (cos that is pretty well all there was when I was a lad) to high-tech super lightweight and back to natural materials.
I was also thinking of making some clothes but was going to investigate Scottish/N.European designs for inspiration, hence my interest in this question here, except I am interested in almost any period.
A bunch of years ago the Swedish Survial Guild held one of its "adventure" courses. Ten days, no kit except some clothes, quite a bit of walking, northern Swedish summer. One lad -- me -- wore a viking style set of clothes: Thorsbjerg style trousers, linnen tunic, and a vadmal outer tunic. A hood inspired by the Orkney hood. I was out of actual viking ag shoes so I wore moccasins with pieces of wool fabric wrapped around the feet (ex. Swedish army issue "fotlappar").
It was bloody marvelous. I could ignore stuff that bothered others (mosquitos at night, rain making all your clothes wet, wellies as wet on the inside as outside, etc). I can't really think of a set of clothes that would be better for that kind of conditions, not really.
A bunch of years ago the Swedish Survial Guild held one of its "adventure" courses. Ten days, no kit except some clothes, quite a bit of walking, northern Swedish summer. One lad -- me -- wore a viking style set of clothes: Thorsbjerg style trousers, linnen tunic, and a vadmal outer tunic. A hood inspired by the Orkney hood. I was out of actual viking ag shoes so I wore moccasins with pieces of wool fabric wrapped around the feet (ex. Swedish army issue "fotlappar").
It was bloody marvelous. I could ignore stuff that bothered others (mosquitos at night, rain making all your clothes wet, wellies as wet on the inside as outside, etc). I can't really think of a set of clothes that would be better for that kind of conditions, not really.
Interesting, I had never heard of some the tings you mention, but googling sorted it out. Given the 1000 year question and the close links with Vikings in Scotland I suspect some people in Scotland were probably wearing something similar.
What were the trousers made of?
Graham
sandbender
17-03-2009, 18:52
It was bloody marvelous. I could ignore stuff that bothered others (mosquitos at night, rain making all your clothes wet, wellies as wet on the inside as outside, etc). I can't really think of a set of clothes that would be better for that kind of conditions, not really.
The highland 'garb' was thought to be essential for life in the highlands, these comments were written in defense of the 'great kilt' at the time when the 'Disarming Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disarming_Act)' was under consideration by parliament...
"The garb is certainly very loose, and fits men inured to it to go through great fatigues, to make very quick marches, to bear out against the inclemency of the weather, to wade through rivers, and shelter in huts, woods, and rocks upon occasion; which men dressed in the low country garb could not possibly endure."
"at least it seems to me to be, an utter impossibility, without the advantage of this dress, for the inhabitants to tend their cattle, and to go through the other parts of their business, without
which they could not subsist"
Others thought that highland 'garb' should be banned for the same reasons...
"... the Highland dress distinguished the Highlanders from the rest of British subjects and bound them together in a narrow introverted community: that the plaid, in particular, encouraged their idle way of life, “lying about upon the heath in the daytime instead of following some lawful employment”; that, being “composed of such colours as altogether in the mass so nearly resemble the heath on which they lie, that it is hardly to be distinguished from it until one is so near them as to be within their power”, it facilitated their robberies and depredations; that it made them, “as they carry continually their tents about them”, ready to join a rebellion at a moment's notice."
:)
I'm pretty sure a tartan bonnet with a fake ginger wig sown into the back of it was traditional hiking gear back then...
I was always under the impression that a lot of what is considered "traditional" scottish dress today is all from the last 300 years or so and bears no relation to what the average scot would have worn. A match coat definately sounds much more like it.
I'm scottish but I wouldn't be seen dead in a kilt.
I think, the kilt only became the scottish "national" dress in Victorian times. Before that it was only worn in the highlands and thus by a tiny number of people living in Scotland. In fact didn't the Victorians pretty well invent the modern image of Scotland.
But I wait to be corrected on this.
As a Fifer, my Dad had no rghts to wear the kilt, but that was his "best" clothes and he always wore the kilt to weddings and other formal occasions.
Graham
Close but Sir Walter Scott had a lot to do with it too :rolleyes:
Nowadays for daily wear or for sports events and concerts or ceilidhs most menfolks are going back to more suitable clothing with the kilt.
The ghillie shirt or sark, kilt, either as a belted plaid or the stitched one, and comfortable boots and socks. The highly tailored jackets are falling by the wayside except for really dressed up and waistcoats with shoulder guards are more commonly worn.
I also see a lot of better quality sgian dubhs instead of the glass jewel encrusted ones and proper leather sporrans; indeed there have been patterns already posted for these on the forum :cool:
Just make sure your sark covers you decently and everything's fine :D
My Dad and my brothers wore their kilts for 'best' too. :)
Cheers,
Toddy........who wears her arisaid and really likes a man in a kilt ;) :D
Close but Sir Walter Scott had a lot to do with it too :rolleyes:
Nowadays for daily wear or for sports events and concerts or ceilidhs most menfolks are going back to more suitable clothing with the kilt.
The ghillie shirt or sark, kilt, either as a belted plaid or the stitched one, and comfortable boots and socks. The highly tailored jackets are falling by the wayside except for really dressed up and waistcoats with shoulder guards are more commonly worn.
I also see a lot of better quality sgian dubhs instead of the glass jewel encrusted ones and proper leather sporrans; indeed there have been patterns already posted for these on the forum :cool:
Just make sure your sark covers you decently and everything's fine :D
My Dad and my brothers wore their kilts for 'best' too. :)
Cheers,
Toddy........who wears her arisaid and really likes a man in a kilt ;) :D
Sir Walter Scott, ah yes, but I wonder how much he then influenced the Victorian Society that followed him.
In fact my dad always wore a Harris Tweed jacket, plain leather sporran and a plain black sgian dubh, plain shirt and tweed tie.
I had a seal skin sporran, but my dad always thought it too fancy, and I never had a sgian dubh :-(
Graham
Aw :(
I do :D It's a beauty too :cool:
You could have one now though :D No reason why not.
My Dad wore the Lovat jacket and waistcoat, a plain leather sporran and a black hilted sgian dubh that he made. He inserted a thistle that he'd cut out from the handle of an old silver fork with a jeweller piercing saw, into the handle.
Cheers,
Toddy
Gailainne
17-03-2009, 20:01
On of my mates at work is getting hitched in May, and I've foolishly said I'd have a go at making his sgian dubh :eek:, afraid it aint gonna be a proper one tho, damascus steel blade with water buffalo scales and sheath, held together with pewter bolsters. If it works out you may see some photos, if not, you wont :cool: :D.
I've told him to have a back up ready, just in case :rolleyes:
BTW on kilts I had 3 uncles in the Black Watch during the second world war, which I am told entitles me to wear said tartan, which I have on several occassions, weddings mostly, walking through Doncaster at lunchtime on a Saturday, was surprising, mostly for the good comments and people taking photos, it was the "Bonny Prince set up" btw, If we're not invading them the English seem to quite like a man in a kilt, the maids of honour, definately seemed to like it :cool:
Stephen
Aw :(
I do :D It's a beauty too :cool:
You could have one now though :D No reason why not.
My Dad wore the Lovat jacket and waistcoat, a plain leather sporran and a black hilted sgian dubh that he made. He inserted a thistle that he'd cut out from the handle of an old silver fork with a jeweller piercing saw, into the handle.
Cheers,
Toddy
I hope to get a Sgian Dubh as a utility knife. something hand made, but very simple.
A combinaton of the simplicity of this rosewood handled one here
http://www.sheffieldknives.co.uk/acatalog/Scottish_Knives.html
And the shape of one of these
http://www.sgiandubh.biz/index.php?s=C-Shop
Damascus steel maybe, and bog oak handle, and none of the fancy metalwork.
Your Dad's kilt outfit sounds just right to me :-)
Graham
Celt_Ginger
17-03-2009, 20:03
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that... ;)
As far as my understanding goes, I believe that to ask whether the Scotti and / or the Gaels of Dalriada were "Scots" or "Irish" is a misleading question. They were a coastal people based around the northern end of the Irish Sea - the strait was the centre of their domain, the thing that brought them together, not a boundary as we see it today. The Plain of Manannan was more bountiful and easier to traverse than the land was, so that's what their community was based around.
EDIT: I see both Graham_S and Toddy beat me to it...
I don't doubt for a minute that it's more complicated than that, but seeing that it's Paddy's day and I'm in Ireland, I need to keep it simple. We all know that the Scots and the Irish are quite a kindred people with a close heritage. Long may that be the case.
On of my mates at work is getting hitched in May, and I've foolishly said I'd have a go at making his sgian dubh :eek:, afraid it aint gonna be a proper one tho, damascus steel blade with water buffalo scales and sheath, held together with pewter bolsters. If it works out you may see some photos, if not, you wont :cool: :D.
I would love to see a picture. I don't think there is such a thing as a "proper" sgian dubh.
As I understand, it was any small knife that could be easily hidden. The flat shape of the handle was so it could carried under the arm pit, and it was carried as a covert weapon so I guess the the pointy stabbing blade might also be characteristic.
Graham
Gailainne
17-03-2009, 20:24
I think the "Black Knife" has had many forms, as you would think as a culture evolved, I talked to a weapons expert at the Wallace Monument once, and he talked about a blade/knife that was basically used to hamstring English knights, it kept them alive, no infections, rendered them useless in battle, ready to be sold back to their familys, apparently fairly standard practice, back then.
Stephen
On the wedding Dubh, I so hope it works out, for my friends sake if nothing else. I'll be doing a blogg as I go along, the hardest part so far has been the etching of the pewter, I've sorted that now...took a few attempts, some were'nt pretty :tongue-ti.
Like I said if it works out you'll see the results, if not you wont.
Stephen
A couple of quick pictures of mine :D Warthog1981 handled the sgian for me and made the sheath :D
Sorry, I ought to have taken one showing the side profile, the handle is slim and shaped.
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_P3k-joCv0Zg/ScAJULnYaMI/AAAAAAAAA1E/pQDO2tR8C6s/s800/IMG_8993.JPG
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P3k-joCv0Zg/ScAJWuFb_MI/AAAAAAAAA1M/vFDnhtUNJlU/s800/IMG_8994.JPG
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P3k-joCv0Zg/ScAJZTwU99I/AAAAAAAAA1U/dngJCG5mMj8/s800/IMG_8995.JPG
http://lh5.ggpht.com/_P3k-joCv0Zg/ScAJbSAPr3I/AAAAAAAAA1c/f66NfYb0FwQ/s800/IMG_8996.JPG
cheers,
Toddy
I think the "Black Knife" has had many forms, as you would think as a culture evolved,
Interesting how much we know so little about.
Good luck with the knife, I trust it will be good enough to share :-)
Graham
Sisyphus
17-03-2009, 20:53
On of my mates at work is getting hitched in May, and I've foolishly said I'd have a go at making his sgian dubh :eek:, afraid it aint gonna be a proper one tho, damascus steel blade with water buffalo scales and sheath, held together with pewter bolsters. If it works out you may see some photos, if not, you wont :cool: :D.
I'm in the same boat!!! The big day isn't for another year though thankfully! Would be great to see how yours turns out. I really fancy yew scales for some reason...
Personally I rate the kilt along with the shellsuit in the top 5 uniforms of the intoxicated antisocial twit, I'm wearing a suit to the aforementioned wedding :P
I keep threatening to draw these out and load them on the forum for folks to make their own.
Please do!!
Old answers to old questions can still be good ones.
A couple of quick pictures of mine :D Warthog1981 handled the sgian for me and made the sheath :D
cheers,
Toddy
That is indeed a lovely Sgian Dubh. It has a nice functional look to it and the little bit of silver work sets it off nicely. Thanks for sharing that, its as close as to my image of what I want from a Sgian dubh as I've seen.
Graham
Sisyphus
17-03-2009, 21:06
The thing I find odd about most of these sgian dubhs is that the notches on the spine and the "baby" fuller are completely redundant and non-functional decoration, which seems to be at odds with the notion of a utility knife that most people would have carried at the time.
I'm of the mind that the "real" sgian dubh would have had much more in common with scandinavian patterns of the same era, rather than the post-17th century cliche of the pointy daggery thing with the copper lined sheath and gaudy silver and jewel pommel...
A couple of quick pictures of mine :D Warthog1981 handled the sgian for me and made the sheath :D
Sorry, I ought to have taken one showing the side profile, the handle is slim and shaped.
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_P3k-joCv0Zg/ScAJZTwU99I/AAAAAAAAA1U/dngJCG5mMj8/s800/IMG_8995.JPG
The thing I find odd about most of these sgian dubhs is that the notches on the spine and the "baby" fuller are completely redundant and non-functional decoration, which seems to be at odds with the notion of a utility knife that most people would have carried at the time.
I'm of the mind that the "real" sgian dubh would have had much more in common with scandinavian patterns of the same era, rather than the post-17th century cliche of the pointy daggery thing with the copper lined sheath and gaudy silver and jewel pommel...
I thought the Sgian dubh was a concealed weapon, and that while the ornate modern sgian dubh is unlikely to represent the original, the dagger shape, the spine notches meant to improve control and maybe a proper fuller may well have been part of the original sgian dubh.
I have always assumed that the utility knife that people would have openly carried evolved into a hidden dagger carried as a weapon which then gained the label of Sgian Dubh.
Graham
Well, mine's fully functional :D , and those serrations are just like filework when seen from above. The pattern is pretty much that of the small eating knife of the time, remember folks cut meat but broke bread. I don't think I've ever seen a copper lined sheath, and while I am not a fan of them, those big jewelled hilts were authentic on many knives of the period.
I do think them best kept simple, with a little individuality in the decoration. Kind of like everyone who knows me and that knife, knows it's mine :D
Some of the modern interpretations are beautiful pieces of craftsmanship :approve: Graham_S and Warthog1981's come to mind :D
cheers,
Toddy
Sisyphus
17-03-2009, 21:50
I thought the Sgian dubh was a concealed weapon, and that while the ornate modern sgian dubh is unlikely to represent the original, the dagger shape, the spine notches meant to improve control and maybe a proper fuller may well have been part of the original sgian dubh.
I have always assumed that the utility knife that people would have openly carried evolved into a hidden dagger carried as a weapon which then gained the label of Sgian Dubh.
Graham
Yeah filework on the spine where the thumb would rest would obviously serve to improve grip, but, if you're talking about a dagger, it's a stabbing/piercing weapon thus the shape, so having filework to give grip when holding it as you would a typical scandi knife etc seems contrary to the purpose of the thing.
I can't imagine any logical reason for fullering the blade of such a small knife either.
Yeah filework on the spine where the thumb would rest would obviously serve to improve grip, but, if you're talking about a dagger, it's a stabbing/piercing weapon thus the shape, so having filework to give grip when holding it as you would a typical scandi knife etc seems contrary to the purpose of the thing.
I can't imagine any logical reason for fullering the blade of such a small knife either.
We could probably bounce this around for a while, maybe the filework made it that much more multi-purpose. so when you weren't killing people you could use it it cut up your dinner.
Or maybe they didn't have file work originally, but when the need to carry concealed weapons had passed, the knives were made into utility knives by adding the file work. I can't see them just being thrown away.
Could the fuller just be aimed at reducing weight, as you would want it as light as possible if hidden in clothing.
You will gather I have no idea really, and just bouncing ideas around.
Graham
Graham
We could ask on BB ..... :D
cheers,
Toddy
We could ask on BB ..... :D
cheers,
Toddy
We could indeed, I'm not a member but I am probably inerested enough to sign up just to ask. Unless someone else fancies asking.
Ahhh, I see you have already asked :-)
I have also found this link http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/dubh.html
Graham
forestwalker
18-03-2009, 03:42
What were the trousers made of?
Wool, naturally.
Wool, naturally.
Of course :-)
Graham
Graham_S
18-03-2009, 13:27
the jimping on the spine gives grip when you're choked up on the blade.
It gives you control when doing fine work.
I don't see the 'doo as a weapon (except as one of last resort) it's too small.
It is the right size to be a utility blade for all those little household tasks that you do around camp
the jimping on the spine gives grip when you're choked up on the blade.
It gives you control when doing fine work.
I don't see the 'doo as a weapon (except as one of last resort) it's too small.
It is the right size to be a utility blade for all those little household tasks that you do around camp
"Jimping", that was the word I couldn't remember. While certainly "I" am looking at it in terms of a utility knife, I thought that the whole point of the Sgian Dubh was its ability to be a weapon hidden in clothing albeit possibly being derived from a skinning knife.
Graham
gregorach
18-03-2009, 14:08
According to The Real Sgian Dubh Company (http://www.sgiandubh.biz/index.php?s=B-Sgian-what) (no affiliation):
The evolution of the sgian dubh is unclear. There is a fairly convincing theory that the it evolved from an earlier and possibly slightly longer armpit dagger (the sgian achlais) which was worn next to the upper arm and hidden from view by the wearer’s clothing. There are references to the sgian achlais being used in the 17th & 18th centuries but no known example exists today.
The earliest references to sgian dubhs are comparatively recent, dating from around the start of the 19th century. This corresponds with the flourish of interest in all things Highland during the Romantic period and the re-discovery and re-design of Highland dress during the reign of Queen Victoria. Certainly, by the1850s it was very commonly worn with Highland dress.
Plus, there's a big difference between a handy throat-slitting knife and what you'd normal consider a "fighting" knife...
According to The Real Sgian Dubh Company (http://www.sgiandubh.biz/index.php?s=B-Sgian-what) (no affiliation):
Plus, there's a big difference between a handy throat-slitting knife and what you'd normal consider a "fighting" knife...
And from the link I gave earlier
"A second theory holds that the sgian dubh evolved from the small skinning knife that was part of the typical set of hunting or gralloch knives."
Graham
gregorach
18-03-2009, 14:45
Yeah, it's all debatable. The main point I was going for there was that the sgian dubh as we currently know it was never really a weapon, but may have evolved from a weapon.
Yeah, it's all debatable. The main point I was going for there was that the sgian dubh as we currently know it was never really a weapon, but may have evolved from a weapon.
I agree if you mean the Sgian Dubh that people wear with the kilt, but we have been discussing the origins of the Sgian Dubh design, and how accurate the modern Sgian Dubh is likely to be, as it seems to have contradictaory design features.
My guess is that any small knife that could be hidden in your clothing would warrant the name Sgian dubh and that individuals will have modified their own knife to make it more to their liking (ie making the handle thinner or regrinding the point). Or indeed made one, or had one made, that made it easier to hide.
Then again, how many knives could a person own in those times, so maybe any knife had to be multipurpose hence the jimping (a tool) and a stabbing point (a weapon).
Its all interesting stuff though.
Graham
WOW
thanks for all the info!!!
did anyone come to a conclusion about what they would be wearing?
Viking type clothing etc maybe?
I'm finding it difficult to find any books on this kind of thing.
THANKS
Dunk
gregorach
18-03-2009, 15:33
My reading of it is that there is no "traditional" sgian dubh - it was invented in the 19th C and its origins are shrouded in mystery. The possibly-sort-of-traditional "hidden knife" is the sgian achlais, and nobody really knows what it looked like.
If you're interested in known traditional Scottish knives from the earlier historical period, you're looking at something more like a dirk or bollock dagger.
WOW
thanks for all the info!!!
did anyone come to a conclusion about what they would be wearing?
Viking type clothing etc maybe?
I'm finding it difficult to find any books on this kind of thing.
THANKS
Dunk
See post No. 6 :D
cheers,
Toddy
My reading of it is that there is no "traditional" sgian dubh - it was invented in the 19th C and its origins are shrouded in mystery. The possibly-sort-of-traditional "hidden knife" is the sgian achlais, and nobody really knows what it looked like.
If you're interested in known traditional Scottish knives from the earlier historical period, you're looking at something more like a dirk or bollock dagger.
Ah, now I had always assumed that it had some basis in history, even if it wasn't the knife that people put in their socks. I've read bits and pieces (like the original Sgian Dubh's were about 1" longer than the ones we see today etc) that suggested their was a little bit of information around.
I'm less keen on having one if it really is only a 19th century invention :-(
Graham
WOW
thanks for all the info!!!
did anyone come to a conclusion about what they would be wearing?
Viking type clothing etc maybe?
I'm finding it difficult to find any books on this kind of thing.
THANKS
Dunk
The posts fromToddy are probably the ones to focus on.
Graham
BorderReiver
18-03-2009, 15:56
My reading of it is that there is no "traditional" sgian dubh - it was invented in the 19th C and its origins are shrouded in mystery. The possibly-sort-of-traditional "hidden knife" is the sgian achlais, and nobody really knows what it looked like.
If you're interested in known traditional Scottish knives from the earlier historical period, you're looking at something more like a dirk or bollock dagger.
Aye, I'll go along with all that.:)
Just to add that the "original" sgian was whatever small knife you happened to own. The only pattern was "small" and "knife".
While I'm here, I see nothing wrong with the modern concept of Scottish National Dress. Tradition has to start somewhere and the kilt and associated accesories are as much a part of Scottish heitage as the midge. IMO :p
Just to add that the "original" sgian was whatever small knife you happened to own. The only pattern was "small" and "knife".
:p
Yep, I agree, and pretty well what I said several post back.
Graham
BorderReiver
18-03-2009, 16:09
Ah, now I had always assumed that it had some basis in history, even if it wasn't the knife that people put in their socks. I've read bits and pieces (like the original Sgian Dubh's were about 1" longer than the ones we see today etc) that suggested their was a little bit of information around.
I'm less keen on having one if it really is only a 19th century invention :-(
Graham
I can't see your problem Graham. As I said further up the page, tradition has to start somewhere.
Everything evolves with time and if is of no use it disappears. The idea of the black knife is sound; it was given substance in the 19th century in the form of the current sock knife.
BTW, my sgian has a crown on the top as it was a service weapon worn by one of the Scottish regiments.
gregorach
18-03-2009, 16:35
Pretty much the whole idea of "Scottishness" as a unified culture was invented in the 18th & 19th centuries. Before that, there was no unified Scottish identity. Remember, the '45 rebellion was largely Catholic Tory Highlanders versus Protestant Whig Lowlanders, and more Scots fought against Charlie than for him. Before that you have a pretty complex mosaic of overlapping and intersecting tribal, cultural and geographic identities. For a long time, Gaelic speakers weren't even regarded as truly Scottish - they we called "the wild Irish" - despite the fact that the Gaels were instrumental in the founding of the nation which came to be known as Scotland.
It's a messy, complex, tangled business...
Graham_S
18-03-2009, 16:41
there are a few schools of thought on the Sgian Dbu and the wearing in the sock.
one is that the highlander took his sgian auchlas and tucked it into the top of his hose when entering a friends house to demonstrate he had no ill intent, displaying his concealed weapon for all to see.
the other is that it was originally the skinning knife used by a ghillie, who when hunting would tuck it into the top of the hose where it would be handy when dressing deer on the hill.
the local aristoctacy, while out on a hunting party copied it as part of the highland fashion
I can't see your problem Graham. As I said further up the page, tradition has to start somewhere.
Everything evolves with time and if is of no use it disappears. The idea of the black knife is sound; it was given substance in the 19th century in the form of the current sock knife.
BTW, my sgian has a crown on the top as it was a service weapon worn by one of the Scottish regiments.
Yes, I have sort of re-thought that gut reaction.
I suppose my "romantic" view of it centred around ot being a peasant tool cum weapon, rather than a decoration. But it is certainly part of the tradition of the Scotland that I belong to (sort of, as I am now exiled to Somerset).
Graham
BorderReiver
18-03-2009, 16:55
Pretty much the whole idea of "Scottishness" as a unified culture was invented in the 18th & 19th centuries. Before that, there was no unified Scottish identity. Remember, the '45 rebellion was largely Catholic Tory Highlanders versus Protestant Whig Lowlanders, and more Scots fought against Charlie than for him. Before that you have a pretty complex mosaic of overlapping and intersecting tribal, cultural and geographic identities. For a long time, Gaelic speakers weren't even regarded as truly Scottish - they we called "the wild Irish" - despite the fact that the Gaels were instrumental in the founding of the nation which came to be known as Scotland.
It's a messy, complex, tangled business...
All the more reason to go with the "invented unified culture".:cool:
It's a messy, complex, tangled business...
It certainly is, as I said in my first post, Scottish history is gloriously confusing :-)
Graham
gregorach
18-03-2009, 16:59
That's what makes it so interesting. :)
the other is that it was originally the skinning knife used by a ghillie, who when hunting would tuck it into the top of the hose where it would be handy when dressing deer on the hill.
I hadn't heard that one before, I wonder if the red flashes are symbolic for the blood from the gralloched deer running down your socks.
Graham
Graham_S
18-03-2009, 17:24
flashes are not representative of anything other than the strips of cloth used to hold up your hose in the days before elastic.
Plus no self respecting ghillie would put his knife back in the sheath without cleaning it first.
flashes are not representative of anything other than the strips of cloth used to hold up your hose in the days before elastic.
Plus no self respecting ghillie would put his knife back in the sheath without cleaning it first.
Fair enough, it was a little bit tongue in cheek.
Graham
That's what makes it so interesting. :)
I can't argue with that :-)
Graham