View Full Version : First Aid?
Paganwolf
08-11-2004, 21:04
I've been on a Wilderness First Aid course this weekend run by Geoff and Hannah of Natural Pathways, I've done first aid when i was in the ACF and through work and it was great to refresh myself and regain my first aid ticket, It made me wonder though how many bushcrafty type people actually are trained and knew First aid? As we are surrounded on our forays with sharp things, heavy things and hot things it should really be apart of our fundamental knowledge not just for our own sakes but for out partners and friends sakes. Just out of interest who out there knows and is trained in First Aid and who would know what to do in the case of an emergency, or have you been in a situation where yourself or another needed first aid? :?:
tenbears10
08-11-2004, 21:14
I've had quite a few different first aid courses and the main thing that worries me is every time you do one it seems to have changed. It can be useful to get a new view point but when the information directly conflicts it is difficult to know which to go with.
I've never had to use it in anger so to speak but first aid training is a bit like insurance in that sense, we all have it but hope we never have to use it.
Bill
I've had quite a few different first aid courses and the main thing that worries me is every time you do one it seems to have changed. It can be useful to get a new view point but when the information directly conflicts it is difficult to know which to go with.
That's what I found too ... nuff said!
I've always kept my ticket up to date. My job has most of the hazards you mentioned (hot things, sharp things, flaring tempers ect :roll: ). I was a Cadet Forces Adventurous Trainig Officer for eight years too, excellent job for getting to deal with almost every imaginable first aid incedent, from broken limbs to mass chemical poisoning.
I think everyone should have to attend a course every three years by law ( and cycle to work one day per month :naughty: ), I think it is selfish not to have had some first aid training, I'm not that public spirited, I just want to make sure theres plenty of people with training around whenI NEED IT!
Neil
That's what I found too ... nuff said!
Things change frighteningly fast - which is why people need to do regular courses.
Most of it is common sense at the end of the day and besides if the casualty is on the brink of death, he won't be worrying about the fact that your technique is not bang up to date.
Neil
Paganwolf
08-11-2004, 21:33
I've always kept my ticket up to date. My job has most of the hazards you mentioned (hot things, sharp things, flaring tempers ect :roll: ). I was a Cadet Forces Adventurous Trainig Officer for eight years too, excellent job for getting to deal with almost every imaginable first aid incedent, from broken limbs to mass chemical poisoning.
I think everyone should have to attend a course every three years by law ( and cycle to work one day per month :naughty: ), I think it is selfish not to have had some first aid training, I'm not that public spirited, I just want to make sure theres plenty of people with training around whenI NEED IT!
Neil
:rolmao: yes i make you right, the guy who we had teaching us this weekend was part of a search and rescue team and also did cave rescue so it was good relevant stuff. not too much class room type stuff and plenty of good scenarios pretty good balance.
RovingArcher
08-11-2004, 21:36
My sweet wife keeps her EMT-1A certificate up to date and she puts me through briefings and practice sessions so that I keep my skills well oiled. Although, most of my knowledge is based on the basics of first aid and CPR.
Carcajou Garou
08-11-2004, 21:41
Through my work we keep up first aid trainning and since I know the guys giving the course I usualy get to start the volonteers out, really has come in handy in numerous road accident that we come upon and other accidents in the bush. Right you are they should be mandatory from a work stand point but I don't know about the general public, most do not want to become involved until something happens to them. First aid has saved my own son's life that's the best feeling to have giving life twice :o):
just a thought
I have had a fair amount of medical training, a few people have mentioned that some of the techniques change on a regular basis, but in the end the basics remain the same.
A lot of times when things do happen things cannot always be practiced as per the book anyway and it will be the first aider improvising but keeping the basic principles of first aid along with techniques taught in mind that will be of major benefit.
You can never get enough first aid training. However sods law says the time you need treating the guy who finds you wont be trained! :?:
Buckshot
09-11-2004, 08:51
I'm first aid at work trained, had to use it when someone tripped over some wood. :shock: They weren't badly hurt, cuts and bruises - and shock
Don't forget the job of a first aider is to keep the patient alive until the paramedics arrive. It doesn't matter if you haven't dotted every i and crossed every t, just make it so the paramedics have something to work on when they get there.
I agree though, it's just being responsible.
Cheers
Mark
tenbears10
09-11-2004, 09:32
I'm not refering to small differences in technique but to the fact that I have been tought (on respected courses) several different combinations of chest compression and breaths for cpr. Now as has been said if you remember one method and it works then who cares.
The most worrying is that another course (the most recent) did not teach cpr because new theory was that a person could not be revived in all but a tiny minority of cases.
Bill
The most worrying is that another course (the most recent) did not teach cpr because new theory was that a person could not be revived in all but a tiny minority of cases.
Bill
It is true that is very rare that a person get's revived with cpr, but the goal is to provide crucial organs with oxygen and keep him that way alive till professional rescue arrives. I think cpr SHOULD be learned by everyone.
Once the heart stops beating you only have about 3 minutes and there is no way that professinal help can be there in such a short time. This is a crucial timespan were lives can only be saved by bystanders who know cpr, meaning you and me.
(I'm a first aid worker in my freetime)
jamesdevine
09-11-2004, 10:54
Yep First aider too. I have to be with both the scouts and work and in both cases it came free so valuable skills to good to pass up. Here as I am sure in the UK and other European countries there is a mandatory requirement to have qualified First Aider on at the work place. There should be one in every Home to. As well as manitor Fire blankets and extigushers.
I would love to do a more out door based first aid course and I hope to that next year via the Scouts.
James
Bushmaster
09-11-2004, 11:15
This is a toughie.I am first aid trained and have been trained up to a high standard in the mountain rescue team. I have loved first aid for years dunno why I just have.Every first aider I speak to has never, or hardly ever used it.
But me..........................In the last two months ( just as an example )
I have been involved with two major incidents.The first was a massive RTA with two people trapped in a car, the female was concious and shouting but the male was not.I had to lean in via the back window to open the males airway as he was not breathing.This simple act kept him alive .Then the air ambulance tuned up and I assisted the paramedic from there on in.Tjhis is no bull by the way.
Three days ago a man crossed the road about six cars in front of me and boom!!!:yikes: He went six feet in the air.I pulled over to the road side and administered first aid to thre guy untill the ambulance arrived.
These are just two rescent incidents I have had loads more. The point I am making is coming up.I was sitting pondering the events with a friend and I asked the question, "what would you have done". "Nothing" he said "I can not cope with that stuff"
"Thats why people like you are put on the earth" That blew me away and after reading the thread on guardian angels I have some real thinking to do.
:-) Any one care to comment?
Geoff:wink:
As you know the only needed thing in a first aid kit is bandages to stop heavy bleeding (and you could still improvise with t-shirt or other clothing if needed). A breathing mask would come in handy too for mouth to mouth breathing (highly recommanded these days...) or you also have these kind of tissues to put over the victim's mouth and nose (only to be used once :o): ). Everything beside that we call luxury, but when you're out in the bush professional help might not come so quick :shock: so you probably need a few extra's which wouldn't be called luxury in such a case.
Let's say it would take a few days before you could get further help.
What would be these extra's?
-Something to desinfect wounds.
-Something to close a big wound.
-Rope to use with improvised materials to fix a broken limb.
-A shemag is very usefull for several things...
-...
More ideas?
To bushmaster:
It does help if you are trained. It makes you more confident and even people who say they can't cope with such a thing "might" act in a different way if they had some training. I say "might" because it's true that not everone can deal with such things.
I was a trained combat medic in the mob and later kept my ticket up to date when I was a lifeguard and later a countryside ranger. Since being in IT I have let it lapse (for about 5 years now) but am still confident in my ability to administer 1st aid should the need arise. 1st aid is mostly common sense and as others have said in the thread, techniques come in and out of 'fashion' with alarming regularity..... Usually when a new chief medical officer is appointed. CPR for example can be anything ... 15 compressions to 2 breaths, 5 to one, 20 to three. Starts to look like a bookies board at the races. The main thing, like bushcraft is to train up and be confident in your abilities. To save the life of another is one of the most profound and rewarding things you could ever do. :super:
Bushmaster
09-11-2004, 12:23
Thanks Ripley,I do agree that training is the key to confidence.I personally feel that first aid should be taught in schools as part of the national curriculum. That way we have a country of "doers not viewers" as you get at most incidents.You know the stand and stare mob!!
Geoff
CPR for example can be anything ... 15 compressions to 2 breaths, 5 to one, 20 to three. Starts to look like a bookies board at the races.
A bookies board .. that made me laugh! :rolmao: Very true (the current thinking is 15:2 - at least it was 6 months ago).
Yes, I am a trained first aider - originally for the purpose of working as a martial arts instructor (mainly dislocated fingers, mild concussion and such like!), though more recently I've been training with St John's for health and safety purposes at work. Definitely something I would recommend, and I wholly agree with comments made here that everyone should have some basic first aid knowledge - the idea of teaching it in schools (possibly as part of PE classes?) is spot on.
That said, I know a couple of mountain rescue people (based in The Peaks) who agree that successful CPR is virtually impossible 'off the beaten track' - it's never once been successful for either of my friends, put it that way.
However, first aid up a hill, on a mountainside or in the great outdoors in general is obviously VERY different to first aid at work, or on the street. The resources are different, the weather plays merry hell, the emergency services are likely to be miles away (literally), and as a consequence of all this, you're likely to be much more panicked by the situation. Certainly not something to learn about 'on the fly' ...
Funnily enough, I'm actually (over)due to sign up for a mounatin first aid course at Plas Y Brenin (Snowdonia) - I've had this particular course highly recommended by a number of friends, as apparently it's one of the best in the UK - thought I'd mention this in case anyone else is interested.
PS: not sure if this is scare-mongering, but I've been warned there's a notorious part of the mountain first aid course that involves the use of hypodermic needles - make sense, unless you're particularly squeemish!
PPS: I would also recommend St John Ambulance for up-to-date first aid training.
G
Yep, today its 15:2, and for good reasons. I don't think that's gonna change soon.
That said, I know a couple of mountain rescue people (based in The Peaks) who agree that successful CPR is virtually impossible 'off the beaten track' - it's never once been successful for either of my friends, put it that way.
I can understand if you have to CPR a person 'off the beaten track' and it's gonna take hours before rescue can come... your chances do get very very slim.
Unless you are built like an ox, and are able to carry every bit of kit known FAK's, or have a viable evacuation plan, emergency medicine in the wild is a very different animal.
So far as CPR goes, if you have no access to defib, you are pretty much in the situation of "keep going until you can go any more" and then accept the inevitable and deal with the aftermath.
As for the wilderness medical kit, compromise is a must, as you have to carry what you can to deal with what is most likely to happen - without going over the top.
I took the Advanced Medicine For Remote Foreign Travel course (run by Wilderness Medical Training) last November. There will be a review of the course on here at some point, once it filters it's way through the system. I also maintain a 1st Aid at Work qualification to keep the HSE happy. Some problems arise when it comes to what you are alowed to do in the UK, when you have a bit of extra knowledge.
I agree with Gary, the more training the better. But make sure you impart some of your knowledge to the people travelling with you, as being an unconscious first aider or expedition medic is not a lot of use to anyone.
I havent been brave enough to let Mel learn stuff with needles on me yet, as I would have to do it without the anaesthetic. :yikes:
Paganwolf
09-11-2004, 13:42
Well done bushmaster heroic stuff there matie, in an emergency situation it may just be a little knowledge the ability to stay cool and not to panic thats needed to save a comrades or a strangers life, anyone who has never done a course or read a book on first aid i would suggest they do as you may one day need those skills to save a loved ones life, Having the chat about guardian angels this weekend with Gary and Geoff got me thinking in the way that all the guys and gals that frequent this site have such a wealth of knowledge and are so helpful in your answers to the new comers to the BCUK forum you should all be proud in the knowledge that if a survival or accident related incident did happen you would all be there in the front line bow drill sets and first aid kits at the ready :wink: :biggthump
i did the basics of first aid in school and things changed even in the few times i did that..
what courses would you guys recoment?
TheViking
09-11-2004, 13:52
I guess we all have been in situations where 1. aid was needed. I guess minor damage is first aid too. It's not very often my mom or dad has given me a bandage on. Most times they drove to the hospital or called the emergency central. :roll: The reason is because most times have been burns and cut wounds. But in small occasions of accidents there's no need for someone, obviously. :-P
Thanks Ripley,I do agree that training is the key to confidence.I personally feel that first aid should be taught in schools as part of the national curriculum. That way we have a country of "doers not viewers" as you get at most incidents.You know the stand and stare mob!!
Geoff
Yep, first aid training at school would be good, but as with all things in this day and age practiceing first aid on a casualty has its complications. We are in the age of law suites where it is possible to save someones life, but should you make the slightest mistake, even though you have just saved a life, you may be sued for it.
A lot of stand and stare is morbid curiosity. Then you have an amount that don't want to get involved for one reason or another.
In the military, as trained member of the medical services or as a first aider at work, you will find that you are normally covered by insurance and a lot of it.
Having first aid training at school would not give you that insurance, so would we be better of because people are trained first aiders, but have no insurance and thus will not carry out first aid for fear of being sued in the event of anything going wrong, whether they are truly liable or not. :?:
Yep, first aid training at school would be good, but as with all things in this day and age practiceing first aid on a casualty has its complications. We are in the age of law suites where it is possible to save someones life, but should you make the slightest mistake, even though you have just saved a life, you may be sued for it.
In most European countries (like here in Switzerland) you cannot be sued if you would make a mistake trying to save someones life. It's more the opposite: you can get sued by the law if you don't aid a person in need. The law here is very clear for that matter. You "must" call professional help and you are urged by law to do more if you can. If you would then do something wrong that would lead to the death of the victim, the state would have to prove that you had serious intension to bring harm to the victim before they could sue you. (as long as you are not a professional yourself , but in that case you would have an insurance that would protect you for professional mistakes anyway).
Me being a first aid worker, I could get sued for not giving personal assistance to the victim, but I could never get sued for mistakes as I'm not a professional. (We are bound to medical secrecy and other professional laws, but we are not regarded as "professional" by law).
tenbears10
09-11-2004, 15:03
Unfortunately Ripley here in the UK we seem to have taken the worst parts of the litigation culture so as Leon says it is a real possibility that if your help kept someone alive but caused them to become paralysed there is a very real chance you could face prosecution for the damage caused.
The example often used in first aid training is a motorcycle crash victim and the dilemma of removing their helmet to give mouth to mouth. To remove the helmet will possibly paralyse them but not removing it will kill them. You can only save them and hope most judges will see that you had the best intentions. I would much prefer your system however.
Bill
Paganwolf
09-11-2004, 16:18
i did the basics of first aid in school and things changed even in the few times i did that..
what courses would you guys recoment?
I would recomend the one i did last weekend with Natural Pathways,it was £160 You get the first aid course a weekend in the woods and all your food and brew too, fantastic deal IMO :biggthump
you dont need any previous first aid training?
Paganwolf
09-11-2004, 17:00
you dont need any previous first aid training?
No you dont basically, its really a fundimental first aid course.. :wink:
excelent.. my school first aid consisted largly of spending a few hours taking the **** out of the school nurses then trying to see if we could pop that dummy with no arms and no legs..
Thanks PW!
Squidders
09-11-2004, 23:00
I have minimal formal training but have found that telling people it's just a flesh wound and to stop moaning about it works a treat.
Most first aid usually only works for exceptionally basic or industrial accidents though. Unless specifically taught, I don't think many first-aiders would have a clue how to treat a tropical ulcer or diagnose the onset of malaria.
What the thing with cpr and two people at the moment?
It did used to get all funny (St Johns kept it the same for public in FAW). It's realy practices in teams I find.
I guess I should just send him an email but he doesn't get back to me.
What the thing with cpr and two people at the moment?
No different, 15:2 whether you are on your own or with a buddy. The most recent change (although it only really applies to advanced life support) is continous, uninterupted compressions if you can secure the airway with an ET tube. This used to be 15:2 as well, but now you just go for 12 bagged breaths a minute with uninterupted compressions.
That said, I know a couple of mountain rescue people (based in The Peaks) who agree that successful CPR is virtually impossible 'off the beaten track' - it's never once been successful for either of my friends, put it that way.
Successful CPR depends on a number of things, but probably most significant, is why the person arrested in the first place. If they had an EMD arrest (PEA for the old timers) with correctable causes and thier downtime is minimal, you stand a half decent chance of getting an output, but if they infarcted, your chances are much slimmer. I've forgotten how many (in-hospital) arrests I've been involved in, but it's more than a few, I've led probably half of those and outcomes are generally poor unless there is a clear and correctable cause. The problem with resus in the field, is you have very limited means of identifying cause. You can treat hypoxia effectively, but I doubt many arrests are caused by hypoxia alone. Hypothermia is another which actually has good outcomes, with a good long term prognosis. But most of the other causes are much harder (or impossible) to identify in the field, with limited or no equipment. If you have IV siting skills and have the eqipment, you could treat hypovolaemia, but that's pushing reality. As others have mentioned, the awkwardness of in the field resus, also compounds it's effectiveness. The longest I've done is 40 minutes, taking turns with 1 other bloke. We failed to get an output and the team called it. But after 40 minutes of "ideal situation" CPR, I was utterly b***ered! I felt like I'd don 5 hours in the gym and could feel the ache in my shoulders for days afterwards - and my technique is practiced and pretty good. If you're trying to do CPR on your own, in less than ideal circumstances, I'd bet you'd give up long before then - I know I would.
However, those people that come into hospital, that have had effective bystander CPR with minimal downtime, stand a massively improved chance of survival. Sometimes you question whether it's all worth it, when outcomes are generally so poor - it can get depressing, but you only have to see the face of one little girl, after you've given her dad back to her, to make it all worthwhile.
However, those people that come into hospital, that have had effective bystander CPR with minimal downtime, stand a massively improved chance of survival. Sometimes you question whether it's all worth it, when outcomes are generally so poor - it can get depressing, but you only have to see the face of one little girl, after you've given her dad back to her, to make it all worthwhile.
I guess that's what it's all about... :-)
beach bum
10-11-2004, 16:23
There is an initiative sponsored by The British Heart Foundation called HEARTSTART HEARTSTART (http://) their aim is to get more people able to perform CPR to a standard that makes a difference. Anyone interested should contact them, they are only too pleased to lay on all the teaching aids (high tech too) needed.
They are especially interested in ready formed groups.
Do it, you could be the one that makes a difference.
regards
beach bum
No different, 15:2 whether you are on your own or with a buddy. The most recent change (although it only really applies to advanced life support) is continous, uninterupted compressions if you can secure the airway with an ET tube. This used to be 15:2 as well, but now you just go for 12 bagged breaths a minute with uninterupted compressions.
I'm up to date then. I was meant to be doing the advanced stuff but the group eemed to fell apart. They were hoping to get most people to do defib medical gasses etc. Closest I got was carrying the kit round
BIG-TARGET
11-11-2004, 06:08
One thing you should add to your first aid kit is any medication(s) for you and /or others in your group that have any chronic health problems( heart condition, high blood preasure, diabete, psychotic tendancies, etc.) :biggthump
On the refresher course I just attended the instructor gave us all a pocket manual and flicking through its pages this made me think how important something like that is to the wilderness traveller because knowledge of first aid is fine but we can't remember everything, a good manual will cover many 'unusual' events and in this ones case also covers the common over the count drugs and there uses as well as first aid kits ect ect.
Also as a little bonus all profits from it go to help support the porters and their families in Nepal.
As always carry a small aid memoir with your kit on extended trips!
simonsays
12-11-2004, 10:06
Successful CPR depends on a number of things, but probably most significant, is why the person arrested in the first place. If they had an EMD arrest (PEA for the old timers) with correctable causes and thier downtime is minimal, you stand a half decent chance of getting an output, but if they infarcted, your chances are much slimmer. I've forgotten how many (in-hospital) arrests I've been involved in, but it's more than a few, I've led probably half of those and outcomes are generally poor unless there is a clear and correctable cause. The problem with resus in the field, is you have very limited means of identifying cause. You can treat hypoxia effectively, but I doubt many arrests are caused by hypoxia alone. Hypothermia is another which actually has good outcomes, with a good long term prognosis. But most of the other causes are much harder (or impossible) to identify in the field, with limited or no equipment. If you have IV siting skills and have the eqipment, you could treat hypovolaemia, but that's pushing reality. As others have mentioned, the awkwardness of in the field resus, also compounds it's effectiveness. The longest I've done is 40 minutes, taking turns with 1 other bloke. We failed to get an output and the team called it. But after 40 minutes of "ideal situation" CPR, I was utterly b***ered! I felt like I'd don 5 hours in the gym and could feel the ache in my shoulders for days afterwards - and my technique is practiced and pretty good. If you're trying to do CPR on your own, in less than ideal circumstances, I'd bet you'd give up long before then - I know I would.
However, those people that come into hospital, that have had effective bystander CPR with minimal downtime, stand a massively improved chance of survival. Sometimes you question whether it's all worth it, when outcomes are generally so poor - it can get depressing, but you only have to see the face of one little girl, after you've given her dad back to her, to make it all worthwhile.
40 minutes of CPR shared between two is REAL hard work Martyn, you deserve a medal... How often did you swap places? At work we try and keep it down to turns of about a minute, I know my own technique gets a bit 'ragged at the edges' as I start to get tired. :1244:
Just to add a little to the general discussion... I do feel sometimes that the difficulty many people encounter with first aid is not always a lack of training (I'm a senior nurse in a trauma theatre and in 17 years have NEVER been offered formal first aid training. Go figure....) but a difficulty in applying that training in a real life situation.
As I'm sure Martyn will confirm, spending hours cheerfully pounding the living daylights out of resussi annie (Its a traditional name for the cpr practice kit) cannot -really- prepare you for the somewhat stark reality of actually having to do it for real where the outcome isnt a passing or failing grade but life and death to some poor soul. Even folk who carry out CPR on a fairly frequent basis are a little thrown by a change of environment. I well remember how much more stressful it was on the one occasion I had to perform CPR whilst not at work (I was in Asda's carpark :yikes: ). It felt scarier by far and was pretty disconcerting to cynical old 'seen-it-all-done-it-all' me. I really do have the greatest respect for any non-clinician who attempts any sort of heroic first aid at all. I just wish I had the time to spare to get some formal FA qualifications, It bugs me because I really feel like I should be better qualified.
cheers,
simon
40 minutes of CPR shared between two is REAL hard work Martyn, you deserve a medal... How often did you swap places? At work we try and keep it down to turns of about a minute, I know my own technique gets a bit 'ragged at the edges' as I start to get tired. :1244:
Just to add a little to the general discussion... I do feel sometimes that the difficulty many people encounter with first aid is not always a lack of training (I'm a senior nurse in a trauma theatre and in 17 years have NEVER been offered formal first aid training. Go figure....) but a difficulty in applying that training in a real life situation.
As I'm sure Martyn will confirm, spending hours cheerfully pounding the living daylights out of resussi annie (Its a traditional name for the cpr practice kit) cannot -really- prepare you for the somewhat stark reality of actually having to do it for real where the outcome isnt a passing or failing grade but life and death to some poor soul. Even folk who carry out CPR on a fairly frequent basis are a little thrown by a change of environment. I well remember how much more stressful it was on the one occasion I had to perform CPR whilst not at work (I was in Asda's carpark :yikes: ). It felt scarier by far and was pretty disconcerting to cynical old 'seen-it-all-done-it-all' me. I really do have the greatest respect for any non-clinician who attempts any sort of heroic first aid at all. I just wish I had the time to spare to get some formal FA qualifications, It bugs me because I really feel like I should be better qualified.
cheers,
simon
Hi Simon, yep it was torture. We were both shattered, but i think to start with, we sort of pushed ourselves a bit too hard (an ego thing maybe), doing a few minutes each, but you pretty quickly get tired and it soon drops to a couple of minutes or less for each swap round. We had a couple of pauses as we got a meagre output following the 1mg adrenaline bolus' but it didnt last long and we were back at it (I think we pushed so hard and for so long because the guy was only 38, it shouldn't make a difference in theory, but it seems to in practice.). We didn't actually time our swaps or anything, to be honest, I usually find it's hard enough keeping track of the cycles - I dunno about you, but I generally feel we are doing well if we can keep a rough approximation of the algorithm in the "heat of battle". We dont really see enough arrests in ITU to be "slick", enough to keep a decent level of competance but that's about it. Generally, I think A&E staff are much better than we are. We do six monthly ALS updates and as a very rough estimate, most of us probably see 2 or 3 arrests between each one. ...and you're spot on, pounding seven bells out of annie, doesnt come close to the real thing - invaluable training as it is, it doesnt really prepare you fopr the real thing. I dont envy your ASDA experience, it hasn't happened to me yet, thankfully.
thought you might like to know. The world record for time of CPR on a dummy was by a team of for (think they were St Johns) who did 24hrs without stopping.
The team I was involved in for CPR was at the time a success. we got him back until the ambulance came and took him away. I was 14 and first on the scene for that one. I think that was the first time I didn't get anyone complaining that a kid was talking over. My dad was working in A & E that day and led the team that tried in A&E. Sadly he died (think he came back once)
I don't talk about the chances people have with a number of injuries as it's easier for us if people around them don't know.
bambodoggy
16-11-2004, 16:06
Gary....any chance of a copy of the booklet you got or do you know where I can buy one?
I've been a four-day first aider for the last 12 years but as you say we can't remember everything and particulary at a time of great stress.
Cheers,
Phil.
dchinell
16-11-2004, 16:32
I like the Fast Aid guide from Moore Medical.
http://www2.mooremedical.com/index.cfm?PG=Homepage&CS=HOM
Here's their description.
Fast Aid First-Aid Guide
The Fast Aid First-Aid Guide provides instructions for treating 31 different medical emergencies until help arrives. The 5 1/2" x 3 3/4" guide unfolds to a large 11" x 15" size. It is laminated for easy cleaning and water-resistant.
It seems a handy size and fairly comprehensive. If you carry and use a pocket PC or Palm device, you may be able to find someone who has already transcribed the text and is willing to email it to you. dchinell[AT]msn.com.
Here's another likely-looking prospect:
http://www.wildernessmedical.com/flashcards.htm
I also have the fold-out booklet from Wilderness Medical Associates, but wouldn't recommend it. It's too much a summary of their system, filled with too many acronyms. It's probably fine for graduates of their course, but not for a layman.
Bear
Colins also do quite a handy guide as part of their 'Mini Gem' series. Available from most bookshops/outdoor retailers (I know Millets have got 'em in stock).
Or here ...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0004723198/qid=1100624451/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_24_1/026-5842504-3362023
Have always been told not to rely (or even carry) first aid guides, and instead to trust expertise, or failing that, common sense - the argument being that the latter is much quicker, more effective an less likely to cause panic than leafing through a guide book in an emergency. That said, I personally disagree with this thinking - I always carry some kind of quick reminder/guide - either the above book, or a laminated tips sheet I picked up from St John Ambulance (but would be interested to hear any opinion on this).
G
greg2935
17-11-2004, 11:36
The Nat Geo book on expedition medicine has good info I've found, not really first aid though.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1579583342/qid=1100691272/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_0_4/202-8057659-7814234
Greg
jamesraykenney
20-11-2004, 02:48
It is true that is very rare that a person get's revived with cpr, but the goal is to provide crucial organs with oxygen and keep him that way alive till professional rescue arrives. I think cpr SHOULD be learned by everyone.
Once the heart stops beating you only have about 3 minutes and there is no way that professinal help can be there in such a short time. This is a crucial me.
(I'm a first aid worker in my freetime)
I think what he meant was that the new theory was that CPR has hardly any value, because does not do enough good to make any real difference in the overall survival rate of the people it is used on.
I have been reading the same thing for a few years now.
I think the figures said that something like 2-3% of CPR recipients ended up surviving after they got to the hospital.
That would mean that by doing CPR and not letting the person die right there, that you were just going to cost the family tens of thousands of dollars in 'resuscitation' costs from the hospital, that were useless anyway.
Of course those 2-3% of people would probably disagree.:D
I think what he meant was that the new theory was that CPR has hardly any value, because does not do enough good to make any real difference in the overall survival rate of the people it is used on.
I have been reading the same thing for a few years now.
I think the figures said that something like 2-3% of CPR recipients ended up surviving after they got to the hospital.
That would mean that by doing CPR and not letting the person die right there, that you were just going to cost the family tens of thousands of dollars in 'resuscitation' costs from the hospital, that were useless anyway.
Of course those 2-3% of people would probably disagree.:D
Mmmm, I think you are mixing up a few things here, jamesraykenney.
With revival I ment coming back to live while performing CPR. You need schock before the heart would start beating again by itself and it's very rare that this would happen with just heart massage.
And I'm sure that CPR is usefull, even when the numbers speak against it. You say 2-3%, which is very low. Last week we had a lesson on the human heart from a specialist in our monthly first aid sessions. He himself, has worked for several years in the E.R. and told us that 1 on 10 walk out fully recovered, which is 10% and not 2-3%. And I was schocked (and astonished, but I'll come back to that later) that the rate was so low. But you have to get a right angle on these numbers. Of the 90% that didn't make it or had severe lasting damage, a big part of them could have been saved if the CPR had been performed correctly, but more important... on time! Stats in the states show that the average intervention time is 6 minutes! Waaaaay to late for CPR cases! So the problem here is not that CPR wouldn't be effective, but the problem is in the application: it has to be done correctly and on time. These two go together anyway because if there would be more people who would know CPR the higher the chances get that someone reacts quickly enough (time factor) and would perform CPR in a correct manner (or at least good enuogh). There comes the reason that such a low percent leave the hospital in good conditions. It's not the CPR itself.
With the 15:2 system the stats should show slight improvements for the future as this has more margin for errrors then the 5:1 system (I'm talking here about performing CPR correctly).
And why was I not only schocked but also astonished hearing these low survival figures?
Because I now 4 CPR cases from our first aid group and all four victims are still alive today. Which gives a succes rate of 100%, but then again, CPR was performed here correctly in all cases... and on time. :nana:
bambodoggy
25-11-2004, 11:45
Hey Gary...many thanks, mini 1st aid mountain book arrived safely today with all the other bits.... I've only glanced through the book but it looks very good, I'll find a place for it in my possibles bag.
Cheers.... :o):
the confusion in CPR success comes frmo diffeent ways they count as a success. Niether of the figures above are ones I use. If there is a first aider on hand as soon as the person goes into arest the success rate is better then either above stated for first revival. Some will crash again later. This goes down with other complications. I don't like to put statistics on the net as it could cause upset for relitives. Statistics don't really work well anyway as it all depends why the person went into arrest, age and health will of course play a part.
Bambam - read it first!! Oh and your welcome!
bambodoggy
25-11-2004, 15:24
Obviously read it first!!!! lol Cheers Gary!
the confusion in CPR success comes frmo diffeent ways they count as a success. Niether of the figures above are ones I use. If there is a first aider on hand as soon as the person goes into arest the success rate is better then either above stated for first revival. Some will crash again later. This goes down with other complications. I don't like to put statistics on the net as it could cause upset for relitives. Statistics don't really work well anyway as it all depends why the person went into arrest, age and health will of course play a part.
I fully agree with you. Stats surely don't tell everything but if there is a first aider at hand chances for survival will improve. That's why I suggested previously that more people should learn it.
adventurer
01-12-2004, 21:17
Totaly know what you mean.
Isnt related to bushcraft specificaly, but my mum used to be a nurse (27 years) when I was a young lad, I worked in IT (which I do now) I used to listen to her talk, but being young, I always knew better than her (well I would wouldnt I ) one night, I asked her if she had actualy saved anyones life. She said that she had brought nearly 90 people back from death.
I was speachless. This year I did a rec course at pyb and I gained a lot from it. Its ironic. lots of the people I socialise with, smoke and say they might be hit by a bus in the morningl. How many of us could bring them around if that did happen ?.
John
SARHound
28-01-2005, 07:08
CPR stats are missleading.
CPR is not meant to bring a person back form the afterlife. CPR is meant to keep the brain alive with latent blood/O2 flow long enough to keep the heart in fibrilation so it can be reset with a shock from an AED.
Hollywood has CPR characterized as this lifesaving action that brings people around sputtering and ok which is absolutley untrue.
The facts are the sooner CPR is applied in combination with quickly applied defibrilating shock the better the chances. If either aspect is late in arriving the odds are very grim. After 15-20 mins of CPR there is not enough O2 left in the blood steam to keep the brain alive long enough to fibrilate the heart and death is certain.
This is why CPR in an emergency room is so effective as it is started quickly and the shock comes soon after thus producing good results.
The only exception to this rule is children under the age of 6 who have had a rapid temperature reduction which in essence perserves the brain because of so called brown fat deposits in the brain that cease to exist beyond 6-7 ys of age.
Rapid temp loss in adults helps in some cases but the time to restart he heart is nowhere near that of children.
Hound
greg2935
28-01-2005, 11:17
Interesting thread, however one thing that has not been addressed here is:
There seems to be a move in the UK from first aid to minimal aid. What I mean by this is that paramedics are well trained, and because, say I did a 6 week course a year ago, (and am panicing because I have never seen something like this), I would easily do more damage trying to do some good than rather leaving well enough alone. I guess this is obvious considering most of us are less than one hour away from a hospital (and therefore less than 20 mins from people who would have less chance of making a mistake). Consequently much of what has been taken out either because medical understanding has moved on, or because the probability of administering the procedure correctly is smaller than the chance of a trained paramedic getting there fast enough to administer it correctly.
What I would like to know then, from a bushcraft point of view, and in light of the fact that we go out of our way to get away from people (and therefore away from timely help should we need it), what courses would you all recommend and why?
Greg
SARHound
28-01-2005, 13:53
Greg,
I realy don't understand this concept. I mean most first aid organizations train people to do what they know and only up to their level of training. This also protects them legally.
If a subject has no pulse and is not breathing how can you screw up CPR honestly? What is the worst that can happen? In the case of CPR and massive bleeding there is no time to wait for paramedics to arrive so this minimum first aid thing is missguided.
As far as courses go any is better than none. I recommend a wilderness course if possible as its more comprehensive and is VERY different than urban first aid. It also plays perfectly with this forums ideals.
Hound
greg2935
28-01-2005, 16:46
Oops, sorry, seem to have caused a misunderstanding here, I wasn't actually thinking of CPR, maybe I should write down what I'm thinking and not expect everyone to work it out for themselves, sorry! I was thinking of the sort of problem you can get on an expedition like snake bite/tropical ulcers etc.
My reasoning went thus: the first 1st aid course I did was in Zimbabwe, it included learning the treatment for snakebite, including type and quantity of serum for size/species, which I guess makes sense for the country/area. In the UK I redid the course and was horrified to find that so much had changed or was left out (snakebite being one of those subjects left out, which is not surprising as you dont have many poisonous snakes here). I did question the reason for taking out so much of the syllabus though, to give you an idea the Zimbabwe course was 6 months two evenings a week, the UK one was 2 months once a week, I was told that it is all a matter of probabilities and that the number of people who were injured by "first aiders" was high enough for the relevant authorities to take "dangerous proceedures" out of the course. I have since redone the UK red cross 1st aid course 6-7 times and each time, something has gone, or changed.
This is okay if you are within a few miles of a hospital where you can get good care. But what if you are not? In particular, I want to update my wilderness skills as I want to go back to africa for a wander round again sometime next year and a red cross course simply will not do.
Sorry for the confusion.
Greg