View Full Version : Air Guns - new laws?
I just saw this: "From the beginning of May, the Anti-Social Behaviour Act 2003 will make it an offence to possess a gas cartridge air weapon without a full firearms certificate. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/3584987.stm
I've got a Walther CP99 that uses a cartridge (with a soda water siphon style cartridge) and I'm wondering if this means I need to now apply for a gun license? (:shock: and would that also mean that I need to fulfill all the rules for it eg storage etc that come with a gun licence??)
Anyone know about this stuff???
I have friends that use Electric - airsoft - guns (and occasionally use them myself) I could ask them if they know anything about it. They're usually resaonably up on the legeslation.
Thanks but I've kind of answered my own question http://www.north-wales.police.uk/news/newspage.asp?news_id=35& :-(
Have no clue as to how to go about getting a gun licence though! Searching online for instructions.
I will need to apply for a license by April 30th and conviently :shock: Operation Target (the campaign to make people aware of the new laws) was only launched on April 19th (yesterday!)
:aargh4: (I would prefer to use the :AR15firin emoticon instead here, but that might decrease my chances of getting a licence! :-P)
Kath who is feeling pretty bloomin anti-social now! :-?
MartiniDave
20-04-2004, 14:37
Kath,
Your CP99 is not affected by this legislation. The compressed gas cartridge refered to is the type made by Brockock which you charge from a scuba tank and load a pellet into the front of the cartridge.
If you have any doubts contact the BASC at www.BASC.org.uk, they are pretty helpful
Regards,
Dave
Have no clue as to how to go about getting a gun licence though!
For a firearms cert, go to your local police station. They will need all your details, a good reason for you to possess the gun (ie a farmer, member of a gun club etc...) They will also want to come round an inspect your fire arms cabinet to make sure its up to legal standard.
On a side not, a friend of mine spent a few hundred pounds on having his cabinate installed, concreted into the floor, only for the police to come round and tell him it wasn't up to standard..... he's now spent 8 months going through the courts trying to get his money back!!!! ... and move his shotgun and rifle (as he didn't have a cert) to the local club. A pain in the a** for a farmer :-(
I don't envy you
:-)
Ed
The compressed gas cartridge refered to is the type made by Brockock which you charge from a scuba tank and load a pellet into the front of the cartridge.
Thanks Dave - that's what I thought too until I looked at the legislation which just says "gas cartridge" (nice and broad!!!) Local gun shop just told me it isn't affected but then the local police just phoned me back to tell me yes it is affected. Dunno who to believe. But as the legislation is so conveniently broad, as the policemen said, I might be better off getting licensed just to be on the safe side...
Going off to sit in the corner... :sulk: (that's about as anti-social as I get!)
MartiniDave
20-04-2004, 15:02
Kath.
Try looking on www.airgunbbs.com I'm sure this has been gone through on the forum there.
Dave
gurushaun
20-04-2004, 15:24
I have an early Brocock, but that'll have to go, it's really annoying as this is the third time changes in legislation have cost me money. I'm thinking that its time I started to think about getting out of *Rip off Britain* for good :cry: :evil: :evil:
Shaun
MartiniDave
20-04-2004, 15:35
Shaun,
I know what you mean, I was a pistol shooter before the ban in '97. Broke my heart handing in my guns & kit.
Dave
C_Claycomb
20-04-2004, 16:14
The Government used the Anti-social Behaviour Bill as a vehicle to ban air weapons that use a self-contained gas cartridge system as they were deemed to be vulnerable to conversion to fire live ammunition. Existing owners will have to apply to the police, who will need to satisfy themselves that, although these people have never previously required a certificate, they are fit to be entrusted with these air weapon.
http://www.basc.org.uk/content/newairgunlawstocomeintofo
The above should make you feel better about your CO2 pistol. I have learned not to trust what police (in general) say regarding the law when it has to do with guns, knives, hunting, or anything similar. Their job makes them biased, when asked they will often say that everything is illegal if it will make things easier on them.
Why a mugger would want to mess with converting a brocock, .22 barrel etc, when they could spend the time getting a real gun that makes bigger holes, is beyond me. :roll:
Many thanks Chris and Dave.
I got yet another call from North Wales Police telling me I definitely WILL have to get a license but I'm happy now, thanks to you guys, that I won't.
Rather wish I hadn't given the Police my name and address and the details of my airgun now :roll: ... as they obviously think it WILL be illegal, but I'm not going to apply for a licence and neither am I going to hand it in to them. Not sure how I will convince them that it ISN't the illegal kind when they come round for me on May 1st... :shock: :lol:
the naughty boy
20-04-2004, 23:32
if they could get away with it they would have a law against pointy sticks!
and by the way ,in the wrong hands a pointy stick is far more lethal than an air pistol!!! its just another suppressive law backed up by generalisation and fear mongers,trying to justify their non productive jobs.
you think your free? think again.
ps..who is it that thinks up all these laws? it aint me! but i,d like to introduce him to my pointy stick :twisted:
ps..who is it that thinks up all these laws? it aint me! but i,d like to introduce him to my pointy stick :twisted:You don't know the prime minister's name and address??? :lol:
I think you're right though. Here they are just trying to scare anyone with an air pistol into surrendering it. Funny thing is when a relative of mine surrendered his shot gun a few years back the copper said "That's nice. I'll have that for myself if you don't mind..." Dare say my - LEGAL - air pistol, not to mention your pointy stick :wink:, would have gone the same way! :lol:
MartiniDave
21-04-2004, 08:19
Kath,
Glad to be useful for a change.
Dave
Buckshot
21-04-2004, 09:12
Shaun,
I know what you mean, I was a pistol shooter before the ban in '97. Broke my heart handing in my guns & kit.
Dave
Me too :cry:
Unfortunately the police are often as confused as the rest of the public and so are saying everything is covered by the ban to make sure.
I think the criteria is if the propellant (the air) and the projectile (the pellet) is housed in the same removeable container (the cartridge) then it's covered by the new rules.
Also the ban does not apply to CO2 powered air guns like the soda stream type cylindars. It only applies to compressed air powered guns.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Mark
i think the reason for the ban is that the brocock guns use a self contained air cartrige which is charged up and loaded with a pellet. the point being that they are the same size as a .38 cart. i seem to remember that the original ones didn't have a complete cylinder, that way it wasn't able to take the pressure of a real round being discharged. wern't blank firers looked at a while back, for people converting them as well.
Great Pebble
21-04-2004, 12:33
Just FYI also, should you have Brocock type weapons, you will indeed have to comply with all relevant firearms requirements, including being "a person fit to posess firearms" and adequate storage facilities. However, according to articles in recent firearms mags the "good cause" requirement does not need to be met for these arms and these arms only, at least ifor those who already own them and wish to continue doing so (damn few I'd have thought).
Has anyone else (not least our lords and masters) given any thought to what's going to happen to all those air cartridge weapons out there?
They've previously been off ticket so there's no record of who owns what. So owners who don't wish to/can't comply with the new laws are faced with the choice between handing their equipment over to the police, with no compensation or disposing of them by other means, quite possibly in the direction of someone who doesn't care what's legal and what isn't and may be willing to put up at least the value of the piece.
Not to mention the fact that converted Brococks have always been illegal and any one doing the conversion/carrying one is guilty of a firearns offence. Once again in Britain the innocent suffer both at the hands of the criminals and of those who are supposed to stop them.
Ho-Hum
Buckshot
21-04-2004, 12:47
Not to mention the fact that converted Brococks have always been illegal and any one doing the conversion/carrying one is guilty of a firearns offence.
Ho-Hum
Exactly I don't think there are many criminals who would break the current firearms laws but suddenly stop because someone's invented another law to make what they're doing extra illeagal. :banghead:
Mark
Keith_Beef
21-04-2004, 12:56
I got yet another call from North Wales Police telling me I definitely WILL have to get a license but I'm happy now, thanks to you guys, that I won't.
To paraphrase a famous saying, I think that any opinions given by telephone are worth the paper they're written on.
I would have written a letter to the Chief Constable, with a copy to the head of the British Judiciary (whatever his title is) and to the head of whatever has replaced the Director of Public Prosecution, asking for clarification.
I would be very wary about taking the verbally expressed opinion of a single police officer to be authoritative. Even asking six officers, on separate occassions, wouldn't do it for me.
A police officer has to deal with so many different problems, that I think it's unreasonable to expect him to be able to give a canonical interpretation of a badly thought-out piece of hastily-concocted legislation. He is likely to err on the side of caution and reply "you're in trouble if you do that".
Keith.
gurushaun
21-04-2004, 16:22
Thats what's pi**ing me off, my Brockck is an early model with the half cylinder, to convert it it would require a full cylinder at least....AAAAAAAAGGGHHHHHHHHHH H :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
Shaun
Have no clue as to how to go about getting a gun licence though!
For a firearms cert, go to your local police station. They will need all your details, a good reason for you to possess the gun (ie a farmer, member of a gun club etc...) They will also want to come round an inspect your fire arms cabinet to make sure its up to legal standard.
On a side not, a friend of mine spent a few hundred pounds on having his cabinate installed, concreted into the floor, only for the police to come round and tell him it wasn't up to standard..... he's now spent 8 months going through the courts trying to get his money back!!!! ... and move his shotgun and rifle (as he didn't have a cert) to the local club. A pain in the a** for a farmer :-(
I don't envy you
:-)
Ed
It's up to the County Police department on what is what as I welded my own cabinet from an old baler and it is still pass's.
Kath- you do NOT need a firearms certificate for a CP99. The police are incorrect. The new legislation only applies to weapons using a 'tandem' cartridge - ie compressed air and pellet forming a single unit- such as Brococks.
I shoot air pistol in competition (the Olympic 10 metre target discipline) and some competitors still use CO2 pistols akin to your CP99. The Scottish Pistol Association clarified the position in a recent newsletter. You don't need a FAC. The BASC website has details.
I did have an old saxby Palmer Ensign Elite air rifle that uses the tandem cartridge. (Saxby palmer went bust-largely because of lousy quality control- and Brocock bought them out.) I wondered about getting a firearms certificate, which would have been fairly straightforward as I already have a shotgun certificate and cabinet. However, it was never very reliable and I decided to hand it in for destruction. You can do this at any police station (ring first!) and sign a form abandoning all claim to it.
No compensation is payable, as you have the option of keeping it (if you apply for an FAC.)
well on a slightly different note, saw on teletext last night that a man from humberside has been given permision to have a .44 magnum revolver by some judge. hmm i thought that there was a total ban on handguns. apparently its because he's had a firearms cert for ages etc. and his reason for having it - he's a deer hunter or somthing and needs it for humane dispatch. a couple of thoughts, isn't a bolt gun any good for the dispatch of animals like deer? also isn't .44 mag a bit on the large side for this kind of thing(sledgehammer and nut come to mind), secondly why a revolver, if he is to have one why not a single shot weapon, unless he's that bed a shot that he needs more than one go quickly. apparently the "flood gates" are not going to be opened and no one else will be allowed one until.......
any one elses thoughts?
That does sound odd! Anyone got an online link to the story?
Try here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/22/nmagn22.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/04/22/ixhome.html
George
Well what a farce that is, if the guy isn't a good enough shot with a rifle to despatch a deer with a single round, then why the hell is shooting deer in the first place.
What is more a rifle is far more accurate and powerfull than most handguns anyway, if he has a rifle what does he require the pistol for.
What's next the 0.5 M2 BMG (Browning Machine Gun) rabbit hunting society or battle field nukes for grouse hunting.
Well what a farce that is, if the guy isn't a good enough shot with a rifle to despatch a deer with a single round, then why the hell is shooting deer in the first place.
Exactly! And all the worse BASC are claiming it as victory fot their campaigning. Bad enough the sheeple getting scared by all the stuff the nannystate puts out then somthing like that comes along.
And Kath, every source I've found confirms you, like me DO NOT need a FAC for our little CO2 pistols.
Cheers
David
BorderReiver
22-04-2004, 21:35
Shaun,
I know what you mean, I was a pistol shooter before the ban in '97. Broke my heart handing in my guns & kit.
Dave
Amen!!
Kath,the sparklet syphon bulb does not count as a cartridge.
It is only the type where you load the pellet into a pre charged device which looks and loads into the chamber like a live round .
Just buy one of the million or so illegal firearms that are about,no one seems to be bothering to stop them being carried!!
BorderReiver
22-04-2004, 21:42
Exactly! And all the worse BASC are claiming it as victory fot their campaigning. Bad enough the sheeple getting scared by all the stuff the nannystate puts out then somthing like that comes along.
Cheers
David
Hey Guys,don't knock it :!:
Every exeption and exemption allowed shows how :evil: stupid the original ban was :roll:
Thanks everyone. I'm happy now that I don't need a licence. The police suggested I take my gun into the local police station to discuss the issue with them, but I'm not comfortable going into town with a gun (and a replica to boot!) in my handbag. :shock: So I think I'll leave it to someone else to set the PTB straight on this one.
100% confirm what doc and dtalbot have set out - we're talking about the brocock air cartridge pistols here - not the walther cp99 sparklets powered pistols. The issue is all because their "cartridges" can be altered to carry a real .22 calibre pistol round and sometimes manage to fire them before they break under the excess pressure.
If you do have a Brocock type, you MUST get it licenced or hand it in. IIRC there's a mandatory jail sentence if convicted for holding one without a licence after April - upto a max of five years. Also, you can't now legally give them away or sell them, or buy them, or throw them away - the deadline for that has already passed. There will not be any compensation for these.
On the other hand, the police cannot refuse you the license - unlike genuine firearms, you don't have to justify yourself at all.
Cheers
Wouldnt you get away with just keeping them? Im sure it would be fine.
if they could get away with it they would have a law against pointy sticks!
And fresh fruit :wink:
Well it's May now and past the deadline and the boys in blue haven't come around to cart me and my gun away ... so hopefully this means they've now got their facts straight. :biggthump
Thanks for your help, all! :wink:
MartiniDave
05-05-2004, 08:52
Kath,
If they take you away we'll send you a cake with a file in it, and a knife, a firesteel, a tarp ... You get the idea.
:-D :-D
Dave
Kath,
If they take you away we'll send you a cake with a file in it, and a knife, a firesteel, a tarp ... You get the idea.
:-D :-D
DaveCheers Mate!
ANDYLASER
03-06-2004, 14:41
Check here for all firearms/airgun laws.
http://www.met.police.uk/firearms-enquiries/index.htm
CO2 "bulb" guns ARE definately OK still. This piece makes usefull reading. If in doubt print out any relevent parts and keep with your airguns. Looks like Brocock are going to go bust and put more people out of work. :-x