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i recently came across a reprint of baden-powell's original 1908 classic, scouting for boys. this was written after it became apparent that many enterprising groups of boys were getting together and using "aids to scouting" as an outdoor handbook. the version specifically for boys was released and the scout movement was born. scary in places, others just alarming, funny too. both jingoistic and naif as many victorian/edwardian books are. i'm only about half way through.
the original was made up of several parts, released over a period of time, magazine style. this version has them all collected together with a lengthy introduction by some professor of colonial and post colonial literature at nottingham trent university. i skipped over most of that bit as i started loosing the will to live.
the intro repeatedly points out that much of the info was unashamedly liberated from other sources. parts of the campcraft chapter have a disinctly nessmukian feel to them. at the end of the chapter, he lists book sources for further reading, specifically woodcraft, by nessmuk :o):
here's a wee quote:
I have eaten the huge kind of lizard called an iguana. He had his head and tail cut off to enable him to go into the cooking pot, and when he was boiled and put on the table he looked exactly like a headless baby with his arms and legs and little hands. And when we ate him he tasted just like a baby too. Well---you know what a baby tastes like---sort of soft chicken flavoured with violet powder!
i hope this is his idea of a joke :o):
more than just a book of outdoors skills, (some of the info is of dubious worth/reliability) it contains info on setting up your own scout troop, and many instances of boys catching murderers and robbers, it's "a handbook for instruction in good citizenship"
"a dead body must be treated with the greatest of caution: it is more likely than not to be a murdered one ."
well worth reading.
cheers, and.
I have eaten the huge kind of lizard called an iguana. He had his head and tail cut off to enable him to go into the cooking pot, and when he was boiled and put on the table he looked exactly like a headless baby with his arms and legs and little hands. And when we ate him he tasted just like a baby too. Well---you know what a baby tastes like---sort of soft chicken flavoured with violet powder!
Sounds like he plagiarized Grimms Fairy Tales. :lol:
What is it about the good ol' days that we used to love to threaten children with the fear of being eaten? :rolmao:
Womble has a copy which I've had a look at. Its quite twee, and very 'Hurrah!', but has some great sections in it.
And I still enjoy scaring kids with those tales:naughty:
Its quite twee, and very 'Hurrah!'
Is there a translator in the house? :wave:
jamesdevine
05-11-2004, 14:01
I have one as well and I really enjoyed reading. Scouting in Ireland followed this formula while was still a lad but it has much chance since then not all for the better either.
Good read quite easy to see how young and old would be inspired by it when there was no TV or playstation to keep them indoors and here's someone telling them to get out and have an adventure themselves everyday.
I have not really grown much as you can imagine. :-)
James
Is there a translator in the house? :wave:
OK, for those that don't speak proper English...(****** Americans!!!)
Its very dated in its style and to my mind rather elitist in its 'Boy scouts are such worthy people'. And as for the Boy Scouts code - how many kids these days woudl be able to keep half of them?
Chaste and pure of mind? Yeah right!!!
(Only joking and no offense Hoodoo, my sister-in-law is from Michigan and I love her to bits, (even if she hasn't written or called for months...)).
Unfortunate title for a book though, don't you think?? I imagine I'd get a slap these days if I walked into Waterstones... "Excuse me young lady. Do you have any books on 'scouting for boys' " :yikes:
nameless
06-11-2004, 10:35
Just Checking Somthing
jamesdevine
16-05-2005, 11:24
I came across this last week and thought some of you guys might like to give it a look. The guy was mentioned a few time in a Bio of BP I read a while ago and I believe he was the inspiration for Allen Quatermain from King Solamon's Mines. He seems quite the bushcrafter.
http://www.burnhamkingofscouts.com/index.html
I haven't read it yet but I hope to as soon as I have the readies. Buy it here it's signed by the author and a lot cheap then amazon.
James
TheViking
16-05-2005, 11:33
Scouting for boys?
http://www.gomelscouts.com/books/tsx0200.shtml
It's a good book, though perhaps a tad too idealistic IMO. :)
Hi guys, I to have a copy off "scouting for boys" by BP. What a fab read, found some of the stuff in there very funny. I struggle to imaging scouts today acting the way BP expected them to in 1908. Some non scouting freinds borrowed it and said that BP comes across as a strange man, he might be, but would we be in a worse place with out him?
I only recently found out that out of the handfull of men to walk on the moon, only one of them was not a scout. My explorer scouts love that one!
miniac,
[quote] I only recently found out that out of the handfull of men to walk on the moon, only one of them was not a scout. My explorer scouts love that one![quote]
which one?
cheers
JFW
I bought a re print of Scouting For Boys after my Dad spent years claiming I'd lost the his 195? (something) edition which he'd had as a kid.
It provided a good couple of hours amusement in the office thae afternoon it arrived.
Neil Armstrong, was the first man to set foot on the moon, I know he was a Scout.
I hope he hadn't planned to use a hammock for is stay though :p
miniac,
[quote] I only recently found out that out of the handfull of men to walk on the moon, only one of them was not a scout. My explorer scouts love that one![quote]
which one?
cheers
JFW
Dont know :o There was an article in august/septembers "scouting" magazine called scouts in space. It says 11 out of the 12 men to walk on the moon were scouts and 2/3 astronaunts who have been in space were involved in scouts. Even A J Rimmer from Red Dwarf was a space scout, how cool is that :cool:
miniac
BlueTrain
06-09-2005, 20:12
B-P had a worthy follower in the person of Dan Beard, one of the founders of the American Boy Scout movement. His background was different from B-P, it goes without saying, and his interests and outlooks were different. It would be interesting to compare boy scouting in the U.K. and in the U.S.. But Dan Beard his pecularities, too.
He was a very patriotic individual in that he was a believer in America. "Americanism," I believe was the word he used. He even went so far as to say that Americans should not live in Bungaloes, which is probably not spelled right, but I am referring to the house style. He thought it too foreign for an American. It is hard to avoid the idea that he thought hardship was a good thing.
On the other hand, he was a talented artist in much the same was as Baden-Powell. His works are illustrated with his own drawings. I have mentioned before that he was a great believer in campfires (and council fires) and devoted what seems like half of his writings to fires. So they must be important.
Dan Beard had already formed boy's groups before scouting came to America and I believe the inspiration was the stories and legends, really, around Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett. While Baden-Powell was greatly influenced by South Africa, Uncle Dan was influenced by American Indians. Which ones in particular, I don't know.
One the common themes running through a lot of the turn of the century outdoor writers (meaning 1900, of course), was that there were no new worlds to explore (or conquer). No new challenges. Mankind was on the way downhill.
Minotaur
07-09-2005, 11:26
First thing first buy the re-print. Do not under any circumstances buy the modern version, they edited it.
i recently came across a reprint of baden-powell's original 1908 classic, scouting for boys. this was written after it became apparent that many enterprising groups of boys were getting together and using "aids to scouting" as an outdoor handbook. the version specifically for boys was released and the scout movement was born. scary in places, others just alarming, funny too. both jingoistic and naif as many victorian/edwardian books are. i'm only about half way through.
Scouting for Boys was written for the Boys Brigade and was then serialised in The Strand, which lead to children forming thier own scout patrols and the formation of Scouting. BP sort of got carried along against his will. Aids to Scouting was written for the army, weirdly enough and was the reason the Boys Brigade approched him.
BP is the patron saint of Bushcraft. Think about it, here is a person who learnt bushcraft skills for no purpose and then did more than anyone else to pass them on, to keep them alive. He used to skip school and go out into the woods to watch wildlife. Most of our modern outdoor pursuits are here because of Scouting. He was the first green, and in 1908, was giving kids sex education(it is one of the ways to spot a modern copy. Also count the scout laws, if there are ten it is a reprint and not edited).
It is one of the things that makes me sad, modern scouting is so much about image and nothing about substance. Anyone who went to the Outdoor show could have seen modern scouting, serously depressing.
jamesdevine
07-09-2005, 11:47
Where there not only Nine orginal Scout Laws. The Pure in thought one was added after the first addition in subcequent additions?
James
Scouting seems these days more like an activity lead by adults that youngsters join in. Far from the original scouting when the boys organised and did everything.
I have however come across a scout troup led by a 12 year old in Zanzibar.
Bushcraft seems to be more the spirit of original scouting, but seemingly done more by adults who are just grown up kids. (well, I am)
Scouting seems these days more like an activity lead by adults that youngsters join in. Far from the original scouting when the boys organised and did everything.
I have however come across a scout troup led by a 12 year old in Zanzibar.
Bushcraft seems to be more the spirit of original scouting, but seemingly done more by adults who are just grown up kids. (well, I am)
Who are you calling a grown up? ;)
Minotaur
07-09-2005, 18:23
Where there not only Nine orginal Scout Laws. The Pure in thought one was added after the first addition in subcequent additions?
James
Never heard that before but anything is possible.
BlueTrain
07-09-2005, 20:11
Well, since no one came right out and said anything good about scouting, maybe I will. This is an American perspective.
My son was involved in scouting when he was in school (now he is in the army) and I was also naturally involved as an adult. I was likewise involved in scouting, though not for a long time, when I was still in school. And a first cousin was a Boy Scout executive.
Although some of the things the Scouts do seems quaint when seen from afar, it was my impression that they enjoyed it greatly, mainly because it gave them the opportunity to do something they would not otherwise be doing. The attitude at scout camps is so different from the contemporary view of camping and outdoor life and that makes it doubly refreshing. At scout camp you can have a fire, sleep under canvas (not nylon), camp in a group, have ceremonies, sing wonderful songs, and carry on all sorts of semi-dangerous activities (like shoot guns, arrows, fool with knives and play with fire). In the places I usually go for my outings, which is a national park, you can't possibly do a single one of those things. About all you can manage to do is fall down and break something.
There was no drill and the uniforms were saved for the ceremonies but were not a big deal. Most of all I think the biggest benefit was taking part in something big, with something of a long tradition. I know it is worldwide but I was never conscious of that. One particularly interesting evening was spent listening to a talk and slide show given by an astronaut.
In the forgotten past (before about 1930, let's say), there were other groups also in being for the purposes of hiking and camping, purely as a recreational activity. Those were mostly adult groups. I suspect that most had disappeared by the time of WWII but some are still going strong and may have received a boost by the completion of the Applachian Trail. In fact, the Applachian Trail is maintained by a confederation of clubs. A couple of the organizations are especially "clubby," I understand, although I belong to none. In one sense, the Sierra Club is one such organization.
There have been very good books published in the past about what amounts to bushcraft that were aimed at boys (and perhaps girls). I am thinking here of a certain Ben Hunt, who was especially interested in handicrafts and Indian lore.
Now, all this about the scouts makes me wonder why there has been no mention of scouts helping out in Louisana and along the coast. The answer to that is probably that this is the day of the professionals. Amateurs need not apply. Donations welcome, however, because we have a large government that believes in small government. This is the paradox.
Minotaur
08-09-2005, 00:33
Nearly a hundred years ago, the scouts where formed by kids for kids and that was the way they were surposed to be run.
Looking around now do you think we have gone forward or backward.
jamesdevine
08-09-2005, 09:09
You both raise some interesting points and it might be better to carry this on in the Leaders forum.
Blue train my personnal experience of scouting was much the same as your sons expect of the Shooting that is. As I mentioned before Scouting in Ireland is going through some major changes and one of the big thinks myself and others are triing to do is ensure that the Idea of it being a youth lead movement is kept. Over the years both of the larger associations slow drifted from this with Adults and Gray beards taking more control. There still are gray beards as they definitly have their place but the focus is on getting the kids inparticular the Scouts, Ventures and Young leaders to drive the movement forward.
Change for changes sake is not good but even BP recognised that the scouting movement like society as a whole is a dynamic and fluid thing. It's core values are still as valid today as they were a 100years ago but in this fast passed media lead world scouting needs too adjust and adapt to ensure that every generations gets the value of those values. If that makes sense.
I enjoy reading the resent reprint of Scouting for Boys and dip into it every now and then, I have also read his works on being a Scout master and as per my signature Rovering to Success and I liked them both and they inspired me to get further involved in our new association and I have found that more often then not the on thing that has hindered Scouting the most is the idea that we don't need need to promote in a way what we do and what scout is that the general public can see how much fun and how profitable it is society.
Any enough rambling on from me.
James
Minotaur
08-09-2005, 12:38
The older the scout information is the better it gets.
Have you seen some of the little books from the 20 and 30 and 40. I have found them again and I am serously thinking about scaning at least one article which shows a tent sheet. Just a square of material with ties making a cross from corner to corner but do it in modern materials and it has got to be a wonderful basha.
I think the other good thing they have going for them is no kit reviews, it was nearly all diy because there was no Millets on every high street.
The problem the scouts has is that they have lost their way or place. It is getting harder and harder to foster self reliance because you are stuck doing more and more group work. If you then add in the poltics of any large organision, you may as well give up. It is something I have never understood, the term means someone in front, all of the uses of the noun or verb relate to leading the way, and yet they keep changing the uniform to follow fashion.
I still have my second Baden Powell scout shirt, not sure if it fits any more(Martial arts and Guinness really bad for your body shape) but my third scout assocation shirt (a long sleved shirt which we spent all the time rolling the sleves up on)went in the bin and it was more expensive. You can buy the old style here - http://www.b-psupplies.co.uk/Shopping/home.asp. A heavy cotton pilot style shirt, they also sell the old style scout belts and hats.
I think scouting for boys is the primer for bushcrafting. If you watch Ray Mears, he still does things in a scout way(he was one as well), like leaving places the way you found them and making sure the tree you have damaged will survive. It may be old or even in some places outdated but so what? We go out of our way to learn skills that have been around for 5,000 + years. Do I think it is the best bushcrafting book, not by a long shot, I just think it should be your first bushcraft book and the one you re-read once a year.