View Full Version : The banning of knives!!
Bushmaster
30-10-2004, 21:40
Hi all, I have just been reading a copy of a tabloid newspaper who are setting up a campaign to try and get the laws governing the carrying of knives tightened.Making it illegal to carry a knife in a public place. :shock:
Now I always carry my folding lock knife and a fire steel everywhere I go (you never know) and a friend of mine always has his swiss army knife with him. Does anyone out there know if we will be breaking the law, as it is you must prove why you are carrying one.Do you think the statement " I am into bushcraft/survival techniques" will be acceptable?
Geoff
:cry:
acording to "ask a cop" on British Blades.. it is a good enough reason to carry even a fixed blade.. though that might only be the case were you in the country side or such like im not sure if you were searched in tescos and said it was for Bushcraft that they would consider it the same!
I was once told by a very wise person that you can get away with an awful lot in this world if you keep a low profile and don't make spectacle of yourself - and it's worked for me flawlessly so far ... touch wood it will continue to do so.
Bushmaster
30-10-2004, 21:54
Know what you mean Adi,know what you mean.
ChrisKavanaugh
30-10-2004, 22:21
I would suggest all law abiding knife owners should immediately band together and A. launch a counter media campaign through every other news source and B. Let this tabloid know of your displeasure by writing their commercial sponsors. A polite 'Letter to the Editor' will most likely be routed to their round file in favour of some Mrs. Doubtfire type responding with a 'Good on You for making us safer' reply.
hobbitboy
30-10-2004, 22:26
Thats slightly concerning.....
Keeping a low profile does work well...although i occassionally get stopped by police for "looking suspicious" or something along those lines.... :roll:
Serves me right for living in the city really......luckily never had a knife/axe on me when they stopped me.... :shock:
Hi all, I have just been reading a copy of a tabloid newspaper who are setting up a campaign to try and get the laws governing the carrying of knives tightened.Making it illegal to carry a knife in a public place. :shock:
Now I always carry my folding lock knife and a fire steel everywhere I go (you never know) and a friend of mine always has his swiss army knife with him. Does anyone out there know if we will be breaking the law, as it is you must prove why you are carrying one.Do you think the statement " I am into bushcraft/survival techniques" will be acceptable?
Geoff
:cry:
If you pocket knife is a folder with no locking mechanism and the blade is under 3 inches you will be fine. Anything else you would have a reasonable excuse as to why you had it.
If you use common sense like Adi and others have said I think that you would be ok as long as whatever you are carrying is not a 'made' offensive weapon then you might be hard pushed to have an excuse for carrying it.
Richie
As i understand the law you are not allowed to carry a lock knife at all only a folding knife if the blade is not over 3'' other knives you can get away with if you are on your way to work were you need a knife or carrying your fishing kit some thing like that. but the Medea will soon jump on the government band waggon to ban all knives because kids have got them so as soon as the government needs to look like they are doing something about crime they will make sure there are loads of reports of people getting stabbed ext so they will take away all the knives from the good people just like they did with guns so only criminals will have them so the same amount of stabbings shootings ext will continue just the same and get worse just like gun crime has but at least we will all feel better knowing the government cares :yikes:
As i understand the law you are not allowed to carry a lock knife at all only a folding knife if the blade is not over 3''
Not true.
Look at the law forum on BritishBlades for probably the most in depth coverage of British Knife law anywhere on the internet.
http://www.britishblades.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39
But, in a simple manner...
You can carry a fixed blade or a folding lock knife (considered to be the same thing in British Law) of pretty much any size providing you have a reasonable reason for having it about your person. Claiming youy are a bushcrafter, while shopping in tesco's will get you locked up. If you are out in the woods, using your knife to make feather stick, it's unlikely you will get arrested and unlikely any charge would stick - the bushcraft reason would probably work. It's all about circumstance and reason. Just dont expect to "blag it". Cops are not daft, they will see through you in a second and you will get arrested for being a fool.
just to be pedantic, here's a summary of British Knife Law....
Bladed items etc:- section 139 Offence of having article with blade or point in public place
(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove4 that he had good reason5 or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.
(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection
(4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume.
(6) A person guilty of an offence under subsection (1) above shall be liable
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or a fine, or both.
(7) In this section “public place” includes any place to which at the material time the public have or are permitted access, whether on payment or otherwise.
(8) This section shall not have effect in relation to anything done before it comes into force.
[Criminal Justice Act 1988, s 139 as amended by the Offensive Weapons Act 1996, s 3.]
1 Sections 139–142 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 which are printed here came into force on the 29 September 1988. For other provisions of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, see in particular Part I: Magistrates’ Courts, Procedure,
2 Part XI contains ss 133–167.
3 For a knife to be a folding pocket-knife within the meaning of this section, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A lock-knife, which required a further process, namely activating a trigger mechanism to fold the blade back into the handle, was held not to be a folding pocket-knife (Harris v DPP [1993] 1 All ER 562); followed in R v Deegan [1998] Crim LR 562,[1998] 2 Cr App Rep 121. The section applies to articles which have a blade or are sharply pointed, falling into the same broad category as a knife or sharply pointed instrument;
it does not apply to a screwdriver just because it has a blade (R v Davis [1998] Crim LR 564).
4 Once the prosecution has discharged the burden of proving the ingredients of the offence against s 139(1), the defendant is guilty unless he can discharge the burden imposed by s 139(4) of the Act; see Godwin v DPP (1993) 96 Cr App Rep 244.
5 The fact that a defendant has forgotten that he has with him an article to which s 139 applies does not constitute a defence of good reason within s 139(4)(DPP v Gregson (1992) 157 JP 201).
6 Interpretation of the ordinay everyday use of “for use at work” is not a matter of law but it is for the justices to decide for themselves what the phrase means in the context of the case.
Therefore possession of a bladed article by an unemployed mechanic to do some repairs on his car that was parked in the road could come within this defence, see R v Manning [1998] Crim LR 198, CA.
7 For procedure in respect of this offence which is triable either way, see the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980, ss 17A-21, in Part I: Magistrates’ Courts, Procedure, .
8–22681
139A Offence of having article with blade or point (or offensive weapon) on school premises
(1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Any person who has an offensive weapon within the meaning of section 1 of the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence. (3) It shall be defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question. (4) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (3) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had the article or weapon in question with him— (a) for use at work,
(b) for educational purposes,
(c) for religious reasons, or
(d) as part of any national costume.
(5) A person guilty of an offence—
(a) under subsection (1) above shall be liable1—
(i) on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both;
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or a fine, or both;
(b) under subsection (2) above shall be liable—
(i) on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum, or both;
(ii) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding four years, or a fine, or both. (6) In this section and section 139B,“school premises” means land used for the purposes of a school excluding any land occupied solely as a dwelling by a person employed at the school; and “school” has the meaning given by section 4 of the Education Act 1996
i knew a clever person from BB would get here soon and help us out..
check out this (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2011) thread..
infact check out their entire LAW (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39) bit its very useful!
Bushmaster
30-10-2004, 23:38
:yikes: Gulp!! It reads like I'm in shtook then if I have my folding, lock knife on my belt during my everyday life. I think I will have to just carry my swiss army knife with me,a poor, but, clearly the only viable alternative.
Many thanks to all who answered my queery and especially to Martyn for a clear and complete answer. :You_Rock_
Kindest Regards
Geoff
and for extra information.. i am informed that a leatherman is counted under the "lock knife" category (even though i recently saw an on duty police man with what i am quite certain is a black leatherman case on his belt) so they are out too!
Bushmaster
30-10-2004, 23:46
Tom Tom, great link, and I now feel a lot better.
:biggthump
Geoff
have a serious read of that Ask a Cop.. there is a lot of useful stuff there! and i find the bits which suggest that even if you are found with an "illegal" blade then if you are polite and are not doing anything stupid.. and it is not linked to the reason you are searched and there is no charge against you you may well be told to "take the blade home" and if it is confiscated then there is a fairly good chance it will be given back to you!
Disclaimer: i and im sure BCUK do not condone the carrying an illegal knife under any circumstance!:)
RovingArcher
31-10-2004, 01:13
:shock: Beware those that hold their hand out to you in friendship, yet keep the other hidden from your view.
You guys have my deepest sympathy. I would be lost without my Leatherman.
You guys have my deepest sympathy. I would be lost without my Leatherman.
Quill, I carry a leatherman wave with me almost every day and have been carrying something like it for at least 12 years. It has always been sat on my belt, in plain sight most of the time and I have only ever beenasked about my reasons for carrying it once. Said tool was still on my belt when I walked away five minutes later.
The current laws are more about common sense and justification, I am a test technician, I build and maintain test equipment in the opto-electronics industry. If I am not out practiceing bushcraft in my spare time I am working on computers as a fully qualified computer engineer, so the majority of what I do could well be a justification for me carrying a leatherman with me. :wave:
(even though i recently saw an on duty police man with what i am quite certain is a black leatherman case on his belt)
Police have a very good reason for needing the leatherman though don't they. Whilst oon St Johns duty people carried leathermans and used them. They can be a vital bit of kit.
Police have a very good reason for needing the leatherman though don't they.
Which is?
:?:
(c) as part of any national costume.
you could walk around dressed in Finnish national dress!! part of which is a puukko hanging on the belt
:rolmao:
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 10:38
Martyns post clearly says
(4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
I suspect police officers have ample justification within this clause
Helping at the scene of an accident, investigating behind locked doors, etc.
Tant
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 10:40
Or you could take to wearing a kilt, there is no absolute definition of what a skean dhubh should look like , though you might find it difficult to walk with a kukri in your sock
Tant
tenbears10
31-10-2004, 10:50
I spoke to my mate who is a policeman in central London about this not so long ago. It came up when I took my sak out of my pocket. He was concerned that I should be carrying it with me all day. I pointed out the it was sub 3 inch and non locking and therefore legal. He was very quick to point out that a if a screwdriver and be classed as an offensive weapon then a sak certainly can no matter what length and mechanism. His advice was to be careful. He is my best mate and staying for the weekend so I did not want to get into the politics of knife licencing which I'm sure we would disagree on but the outcome was that if you carry even a small penknife all the time then there may come a time when you are in the pub on the way home from work or at lunchtime on the weekend and the police would not take kindly to you having an even legal knife in that situation.
The fact is that it very much comes down to each policemans interpretation. I'm sure no one would think twice in the countryside if you have a sak in your pocket. But it varies greatly from place to place.
Bill
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 11:03
policemans' interpretation only goes so far
Ultimately it is for the courts to decide whether to prosecute or not
Any policeman who makes arrests that are continually not prosecuted on the grounds that there was in fact no offence committed is in for a hard time with his superiors
Please remember that carrying a sub 3 inch slipjoint (eg SAK ) is not an offence, taking it out and waving it around in a threatening manner, most certainly is
If you have a pocket full of stolen mobile phones and a lock knife you are in for the high jump
If you have a bag of fresh mushrooms and a lock knife and are quietly walking home after a morning in the woods, you are hardly likely to be searched, and even if you are searched you can prove that you were in the woods foraging. Should be no problem unless you really aggravate the police.
Tant
Sensible post Tant! I think you sum it up well!
tenbears10
31-10-2004, 11:16
I agree Tant. It just worries me that we will be banned from carrying knives because of what criminals do and it will make no difference to the criminals only the law abiding people like us.
You wait until Labour need some votes before the next election I bet they will try at least to licence knives or ban them completely and the Sun reading public will be all in favour.
Bill
Squidders
31-10-2004, 11:42
I think that if the government are going to go off on one they should bring in some sort of license... this would be useful for things like fixed blades also and would eliminate any blagging.
Carrying your knife to work because that's where you need it is not a good excuse because they can just ask why you don't leave it there. and any high value you put on the blade is no real argument as people leave laptops at work :wink:
I'm wondering about locking blades though... I wonder if anyone can assist on this and shout at me if this is off topic too far.
Most locking blades clip open when you pull the blade out and you have to push/pull something to unlock it... I was thinking about opinel blades... they require an action to lock the blade in the first place... technically, by jamming something in any non locking knife you have a locking knife... is there a diference? and what's legal?
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 11:54
there is a ton of this type of discussion over on British Blades under the Blades, Britain & the Law... (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=39) section
but if you read Martyns post i think it is pretty clear
3 For a knife to be a folding pocket-knife within the meaning of this section, it must be readily and immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process. A lock-knife, which required a further process, namely activating a trigger mechanism to fold the blade back into the handle, was held not to be a folding pocket-knife (Harris v DPP [1993] 1 All ER 562); followed in R v Deegan [1998] Crim LR 562,[1998] 2 Cr App Rep 121. The section applies to articles which have a blade or are sharply pointed, falling into the same broad category as a knife or sharply pointed instrument;
my highlight on the "at all times"
hope this helps
i know it is a minefield but ignorance of the law is not an excuse that is valid in court
Tant
Squidders
31-10-2004, 12:08
Cheers Tant... I guess I selectively misread that bit... damn brain.
Why oh why do we as a population put up with this kind of mothering from the state? I'm not going to be able to carry a sharp pencil soon :soapbox:
There was disturbing talk on something the other night - "Inside out" I think about the availability of knives over the net without age checks. Granted when they were looking at the 'fantasy knives' the guy had a valid point in saying they didn't need to be supplied sharp but he was also claiming that noone could have a valid reason for owning a machete or bill hook.
Someone at work is a magstrate, she's borrow my penknife a few times and oddly wasn't bothered by the locking opinel but had a fit when I passed her a budding knife once - the blade was only 2inch but of course the same of thsoe things makes them look a little, well vicious. She rekoned I'd never get away with it if I was caught with that one in my pocket.
I have gotten away with carrying a large double edged hunting knife quite openly on my belt - I was on my way back from a battle reenactment thing and wearing nothing but a couple of skins. I'd actualy stopped to pet one of the police horse and rider told me she had no problem with the knife but this was a rough area of town and I might want to rethink how I carried it.
I've been stopped once aside from that and checked - they'd had reports of a break in and I matched the description, the opinel was found, opened and handed back with no trouble. Be polite, be cooperative and about all don't go waving a blade around and the police are pretty tolerant.
Realgar
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 12:47
ya are very welcome mate
if i can help i usually try to
there is no such thing as a stupid question
Tant
personaly i couldn't care about this campaign. by the sounds of it their trying to raise paper sales/ put a bit of pressure on a political group. end of the day i don't think it will make any difference.
Great Pebble
31-10-2004, 15:25
I noticed there was an article in our local evening paper this week concerning a "consignment of weapons" intercepted by customs at Belfast International.
Initially I thought "guns 'n' explosives" but it turns out that the contents of the consignment were lock knives, hunting knives and machetes.
Illegal weapons?
Illegal weapons?
Only in the sense that they were been imported illegaly (I think)
When you criminalise knives, only criminals will carry knives. :?:
When you criminalise knives, only criminals will carry knives. :?:
Agreed and the point is they still will carry knives!!
Banning the carrying of knives isn't going to help cut down on crime.
arctic hobo
31-10-2004, 22:38
Exactly!! Those who carry knives with the intent of killing people are certainly not going to be put off by a ban, as the consequences for murder will be much more severe than those for carrying a knife. Only the decent folks like us Bushcrafters will be stopped from carrying one... it's counter intuitive. Here's to hoping it won't affect me (I always carry a Swiss Army knife).
Tantalus
31-10-2004, 23:07
personally i think a knife is an essential tool and not a weapon
as long as i continue to treat it like a tool and respect it as such i need have no fear that carrying a knife will be a crime
i dont need a lock knife to go to tescos
i dont need a bowie to go to the bank
and i NEVER carry a knife for self defence
if i am asked to justify the knife in my pocket or on my belt i can do so
sadly in todays society it means looking into what the law says on these matters
but the law is there to protect me as well so i guess i can tolerate having to take my lock knife out my pocket and swap it for a slipjoint for a day in the town
Tant
I spoke to my mate who is a policeman in central London about this not so long ago. It came up when I took my sak out of my pocket. He was concerned that I should be carrying it with me all day. I pointed out the it was sub 3 inch and non locking and therefore legal. He was very quick to point out that a if a screwdriver and be classed as an offensive weapon then a sak certainly can no matter what length and mechanism.
A ballpoint pen is an offensive weapon if you attack someone with it.
However, a ballpoint pen is most definitely NOT illegal to carry with you all day, wherever you like, just because.
A SAK is not an offensive weapon, unless you display intent to use it as such.
You can carry any knife, so long as it is readily foldable (does not lock) and the blade is under 3" long. You do not have to justify this to a policeman. You do not have to give a reason for having one, you are not obliged or required by law to explain it in any way. A police officer may ask you to explain it, and for an easy life, you may wish to volunteer an answer, but that's up to you. You ARE NOT commiting any offence by carrying a folding pocket knife, that does not lock, with a blade under 3" long. Your right to carry such, for any reason whatoever, is explicitly permitted in law by the 1988 criminal justice act.
The key factor is how you handle the knife. Threaten someone and it instantly becomes an offensive weapon. Use it properly, an it's just a knife - just like a pen is just a pen when used for it's intended purpose.
Carrying your knife to work because that's where you need it is not a good excuse because they can just ask why you don't leave it there. and any high value you put on the blade is no real argument as people leave laptops at work :wink:
Correct, that reason only works while you're at work. You could probably sucessfully argue a simple and direct transport to and from work with the knife is reasonable, but I wouldn't bank on it. If you need it for work, and you dont work weekends, you have no reason for having it at weekends.
Most locking blades clip open when you pull the blade out and you have to push/pull something to unlock it... I was thinking about opinel blades... they require an action to lock the blade in the first place... technically, by jamming something in any non locking knife you have a locking knife... is there a diference? and what's legal?
An opinel is a locking knife. You need a reasonable reason to carry one, just as you would if it were a sheath knife.
Jamming a folder open, would probably constitute modification of the knife - just like welding it open would. However, the knife itself, is not illegal before you jam it open. The law says "it must be readily foldable at all times" - if you do something to jam it open, it stops being readily foldable and you've turned it into a knife that is potentially illegal (you'd need a reason to have it).
There is no way round this, there is no get out. If it locks, you need a reason to carry it, or you are breaking the law. An officer may disagree with your reason and arrest you anyway, that is his right. You may have to prove your reason in court. The court may disagree that your reason is "reasonable" and fine you or send you to prison. So, be sure your "reasonable reason" is indeed a reasonable reason, and not some half baked excuse that you think lamely gets you round the law - it wont!
Using your opinel for bushcraft is a reasonable reason for having it, but only while you are actually doing bushcraft. Using your opinel for bushcraft, is not a reasonable reason for having it with you in Tesco's on a saturday afternoon.
is "i am taking it to show a friend who is also a law abiding.. sensible knife collector a "reasonable reason?"" for the tesco and many other scinarios of that nature?
Bushmaster
01-11-2004, 00:13
Ok I posed the origonal thread but I'm going off it here slightly. Do we all shop at Tesco's 'cos it sounds like it to me.lol
:o): :o): :o): :lol: :lol: :naughty: :rolmao: :rolmao:
Geoff
is "i am taking it to show a friend who is also a law abiding.. sensible knife collector a "reasonable reason?"" for the tesco and many other scinarios of that nature?
Whether your friend is law abiding or not is irrelevant. Transporting it directly to and from a location is reasonable (you might have to prove it in court), carrying it in Tesco's or round town is not reasonable (unless your friend lives in Tesco's).
It sounds like a BS excuse (it is one really isn't it?) and likely to be viewed as such by a police officer.
see above...
So, be sure your "reasonable reason" is indeed a reasonable reason, and not some half baked excuse that you think lamely gets you round the law - it wont!
personally i think a knife is an essential tool and not a weapon
as long as i continue to treat it like a tool and respect it as such i need have no fear that carrying a knife will be a crime
i dont need a lock knife to go to tescos
i dont need a bowie to go to the bank
and i NEVER carry a knife for self defence
if i am asked to justify the knife in my pocket or on my belt i can do so
sadly in todays society it means looking into what the law says on these matters
but the law is there to protect me as well so i guess i can tolerate having to take my lock knife out my pocket and swap it for a slipjoint for a day in the town
Tant
Well said. :biggthump
Do we all shop at Tesco's 'cos it sounds like it to me.lol
Geoff
yes, tesco value range is what I live on at uni (loaf of bread 19p baked beans 11p)
I don't really see the point in going through all this lock knife buisness when it's been coverd in huge depth over on britishblades.
I don't really see the point in going through all this lock knife buisness when it's been coverd in huge depth over on britishblades.
I agree ... The bottom line is that with regards to bushcraft, if you are carrying a knife while doing "bushcrafty things" you *should* be OK as you have a valid reason for carrying knives. However, the best excuse in the world ain't gonna help you if you make an idiot of yourself and come to the attention of the law.
Bottom line, use common sense and discretion and be comfortable with what you do. Info you pick up off a forum is unlikely to be of much use to you when you are faced with having to explain yourself - you either have a valid reason that's accepted or not, or you don't have a valid reason. This stuff is serious business and you can get in serious deep trouble quickly and saying "someone told me so and so on the internet" ain't gonna be much help to you.
Also (pre-empting future questions/comments), if you don't like the law of proposed changes, get in touch with your MP or ministers involved. That's how politics works. Using a forum to spread the word is great but remember that a forum can't change the law!
On a lighter note - the continued reference to supermarkets here is interesting though because I've never seen anyone stopped and searched in a supermarket ... :o):
The continued reference to supermarkets here is interesting though because I've never seen anyone stopped and searched in a supermarket ... :o):
It's much easier to hunt animals that you defrosted the day before.
Tantalus
01-11-2004, 12:40
lol adi , sorry for mentioning tescos, it was just an everyday example that i thought people would relate to :sad6:
you are probably more likely to be searched while going to a football match, while out late night drinking, or any of a hundred other situations :1244:
Tant
No worries ... just htink it says somehting about us (not sure what) that we think of a public place we think of supermarkets! :o):
personaly i couldn't care about this campaign. by the sounds of it their trying to raise paper sales/ put a bit of pressure on a political group. end of the day i don't think it will make any difference.
We have more to worry about from some of the media groups then we do from politicians. Once a newspaper finds out that there is a groundswell in favour of a certain article that they have published, then they will adopt that for a campaigning issue and get even more vehement about it and turn it into a witchhunt until they force politicians arms up begind their back and make them commit to their "cause".
Before you know it, we'll have to spread butter with our fingers because they've banned all metal cutlery :shock:
It may sound funny, but the reality is that this is the way things get banned.
It's happened before. Anyone remember those nasty "Ninja Death stars"? Well, those are a valuable historic weapon from the martial art that I practice. Now, I'm not allowed to train with them as well as several other weapons all because of some media circus campaigning against "Teen-age mutant ninja turtles".
The best way to prevent this from happening to bushcraft tools, is for a valid sensible viewpoint (preferably from a professional user of such tools) to be made to the media, politicians and the public, so that our defense is well established before such an issue comes to the fore. Someone like Ray Mears springs to mind. He's passionate about his bushcraft and he's involved with the scouting organisation already and maybe most importantly, He's well known to the public and the media.
Sorry for rambling on, but I don't want to see such a thing happen to something I hold dear.
Cheers,
Martin
There's a useful article on this, entitled 'UK Knife Law' in the BCUK Articles section. Written by somebody or other........
:wink:
Danzo
I don't really see the point in going through all this lock knife buisness when it's been coverd in huge depth over on britishblades.
You're working on the assumption that people are members there as well as here. They may wish to discuss it further and feel happier doing it here.
:?:
i think its funny how they want to ban knives because of stabbings when most stabbings involve screwdrivers and needles or broken bottles which by the way is how current body armour is tested not with knives
I think it's important to remember that your car is considered a public place, so storing knives etc in your vehicle is not a legal option either, unless you're travelling from a place where you were using them. And even then you can expect to get a hard time! :nono:
I was taken to hospital after the accident in my Landy on the way back from the Wilderness Gathering. I begged the Ambulance man to let me take my bag with me, forgetting that this would mean I would be taking knives etc into a public place when I got to the hospital. Bad mistake! The casualty staff informed the police who came to question me about it... :roll: :?:
But that wasn't the end of it. The Landy containing all the rest of my kit was then impounded as evidence, so then I had to explain why I had the rest of my stuff, billhooks, axes, etc. The police even came to my house to question me about it! :yikes:
(And it's not just knives - a lot of bushcraft stuff isn't easy to explain away either. How would you explain a tinder pouch full of birch shavings, cattail fluff and clematis bark to a policeman who's never even heard of Ray Mears! :roll: :shock: :?:)
So beware - you never know when you might suddenly be expected to explain yourself. And believe me when I say that 'Bushcraft' isn't the perfect excuse that everyone seems to think it is... :wink:
I think that Kath makes an excellent point. Everyone should remember that the legal defences to any charge under the relevent laws are exactly that: defences to be raised in court. An understanding police officer may let you go with all your kit. Another officer may choose to arrest and charge you. And confiscate your kit. If the CPS then decide to proceed you will go to court and only at THAT point will your defence of lawful activity and good reason be considered by the magistrates, or judge and jury. By this stage, depending on the enthusiasm of your local cub reporter you could well have made it into the pages of your local rag:
KNIFE FREAK ARRESTED WITH ARMOURY IN LANDROVER! WITCHCRAFT CONNECTION SUSPECTED!!!
:shock:
As the Editor would no doubt say when you complained:
You said 'Bush'? Sorry, it sounded like 'Witch'
:roll:
Be careful out there.......
:wink:
Danzo
KNIFE FREAK ARRESTED WITH ARMOURY IN LANDROVER! WITCHCRAFT CONNECTION SUSPECTED!!!
:shock:
As the Editor would no doubt say when you complained:
You said 'Bush'? Sorry, it sounded like 'Witch'
:roll:
:rolmao: :o): :rolmao:
I find it funny that the police seems to have all this time and resources to investigate law abiding people who have a perfectly legal minority interests that appears to contravene a daft law, made by defensive and gullible politicians egged on by an ignorant and baying media hoodwinking the majority of the public. Surely those scarce police resources would be better used enforcing laws that does protect the public like catching burglars, wife beaters, drunken drivers and drug dealers, criminals who actually make other people’s lives miserable rather than people who like to have a knife in their pocket and doesn’t affect anyone else. Maybe when judges look at the intention of parliament when interpreting a law, they should consider it was passed because the Government wanted to get the media of their backs rather than protecting the public. It goes to show that more laws especially if they are daft ones just wastes everyone’s time and actually detracts from the protection of the public.
BIG-TARGET
08-11-2004, 12:09
I find it funny that the police seems to have all this time and resources to investigate law abiding people who have a perfectly legal minority interests that appears to contravene a daft law, made by defensive and gullible politicians egged on by an ignorant and baying media hoodwinking the majority of the public. Surely those scarce police resources would be better used enforcing laws that does protect the public like catching burglars, wife beaters, drunken drivers and drug dealers, criminals who actually make other people’s lives miserable rather than people who like to have a knife in their pocket and doesn’t affect anyone else. Maybe when judges look at the intention of parliament when interpreting a law, they should consider it was passed because the Government wanted to get the media of their backs rather than protecting the public. It goes to show that more laws especially if they are daft ones just wastes everyone’s time and actually detracts from the protection of the public.
That is the one real of law enforcement, they have(at leats in NJ) are becoming "revenue enhancement officer" who will literally invent and excuse to give you a $50 ticket/fine for ANY REASON!!!!
And they make sure the fine is low enough, so that you would rather pay the fine than fight it. And even if you fight it, the local judge(who is nothing but a political hack) will find you guilty anyway. triple your fine, plus court costs(the judges cut).
so you are :smashfrea either way!!!! :aargh4: :banghead:
Tantalus
08-11-2004, 12:10
gotta agree with ya shing
the old phrase " i saw it in the newspaper so it must be true" comes to mind here
the police just do their jobs to the best of their ability, and their jobs are guided by the politicians
the politicians on the other hand seem to be so out of touch with the country that a quick scan of the daily papers sets their agenda for the day
somebody needs to tell politicians that the popular press does not necessarily reflect public opinion
Tant
You're working on the assumption that people are members there as well as here. They may wish to discuss it further and feel happier doing it here.
:?:
I feel that it's wasting time for people to have to explain it again. If your not discussing knives in bushcraft sense then it's in the wrong section. People like Ross, Danzo and other put a lot of effort into explaining things over there. We should make full use of that effort
Are the "revenue enhancement officers" on commision?
Tantalus
08-11-2004, 14:44
sounds more like blue meanies aka traffic wardens than any UK police i ever heard of
Tant
Its clear the banning of knives is an emotive rather than an objective excercise. Looking at it logically, the things that cause the most harm to the public should be banned or at least tightly controlled first. Looking at the stats of what causes injury and death to people, top of the list would be tobacco followed by alcohol, cars, chip pans, ladders, dogs, buildings more than one storey high, aircraft, ships and doctors. Knives are near the bottom of any list like that. But politics is the art of the possible, trying to ban tobacco and alcohol would be political suicide, too many people like it and the industries that make and are dependent on it are too rich and powerful. Theres no doubt that banning tobbacco would save hundreds of thousand of lives a year and save the NHS millions of pounds but its easier to ban the carrying of knives because theres hardly a knife industry in the UK and the people who like knives keep a low profile and are politically inactive. They are also demonised and blamed, not unlike migrants and ethnic minorities so its easy and politically expidient to take away their rights and gain political captial. We should take a leaf out of the National Rifle Association in the US. They have a strong industry backed by powerful polictical lobbies and are united by common interest. To take a low profile means the next atrocity that involve knives which is inevitable will see further erosion in our rights to possess and carry knives.
BIG-TARGET
08-11-2004, 15:09
Are the "revenue enhancement officers" on commision?
No, but the more tickets the police cut, they get better shifts,promotions, and extra paid vacation :cry: