View Full Version : Which 3-4 season synthetic sleeping bag for a Sabre 45
VirusKiller
06-01-2009, 17:04
Lots and lots of threads on sleeping bags, so I'll try and be specific. I'd like a nice light and compact down bag, but my current thinking is leading me towards the following:
A synthetic bag. I'd quite like to keep my Sabre 45 packed and "ready-to-go" and permanently compressing a nice down bag doesn't seem like a good idea...
A non-bulky bag, the definition of which is a bag that doesn't take up a an excessive amount of room in the Sabre. Note that I do want to place it inside the bag, not strapped to the outside.
A bag that will be okay for summer use and at least down to zero (ideally -5) with a wool base layer on.My shortlist is:
Woodlore Osprey (I do like the centre zip).
Nanok Endurance SF 0C.
Ajungilak Tyin 3-season.Anything else? What are the outer materials of these bags like? My huge Pattern 58 bag has a really durable rubberized outer.
Or is synthetic simply not going to give me what I need in terms of 3/4 (British) season warmth for the bulk/weight ratio I'm looking for?
TIA.
Whatever you eventually choose to buy you should think about storing it flat under a bed or on top of a wardrobe or something. That goes for synthetic and down filled bags, constant compression will only serve to ruin the loft and insulation of the fill.
All three bags you`ve listed are very good and you won`t go far wrong if you look after it.
big_swede
06-01-2009, 17:19
synthetic bags are more sensitive to compression than down... Best value for the money IMHO are alpkits bags. Face, down is better in all aspects, except price. That down is worse when it comes to moisture is IMHO not really true.
If you choose synthetic check the Carinthia Brenta. Excellent -10 bag & it fits wonderfully in the Sabre (with room to spare)
:lmao: when I read the title, I wondered why you wanted to put your Sabre45 in a sleeping-bag - that's caring for your kit too much IMHO ;)
The advice given already is sound, Alpkit bags are good and will be a bit lighter too for the same rating.
The outers on the Alpkit and Nanok bags are fairly durable. I don't think they'll be as durable as the 58 pattern but then again does it need to be squaddie-proof?
Edit: You might want to think about getting a big dry-bag with an air-valve, this way you can stuff the sleeping bag into the dry bag to live in your sabre uncompressed and then squish it down the compress and expel the air when you want to fill the rucksack with other gear and head out. You'll have to air the sleeping bag and let it "rest" periodically, but if you want to have it on standby for a couple of weeks at a time - it'll be fine.
VirusKiller
06-01-2009, 18:50
Great advice, thanks. The storage aspect does change things completely as that was the only thing that was leading me down the synthetic route. I've got a lot more choice if down is an option.
The bag doesn't have to be squaddie-proof :) . I've also read useful comments about the pretty waterproof outer shells of down bags these days so the damp performance of down is probably no big deal.
Relating to my original question though: Does a compressed Osprey fit comfortably in a Sabre 45? According to Woodlore's info, the bag is about 10 litres.
Who else apart from Mountain Equipment for down?
Oh, and I do have a dry bag with valve, so using that is definitely an option.
Angus Og
06-01-2009, 19:23
This may help a bit.
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=434717&postcount=19
VirusKiller
06-01-2009, 20:21
Thanks Iain. The Osprey does look pretty good and, although more expensive than the Nanok, is still half the price of a ME down bag.
It might be worth having a look at the bags made by Kifaru. They're synthetic-filled numbers and a good deal lighter and more compressible than the usual run of synthetic bags. They're also designed for 'living in' - it means they have more room to manoeuvre than others.
I've no connection, etc., etc. - just a happy customer.
VirusKiller
07-01-2009, 12:05
Interestingly, last night I started reading Ray Jardine's Guide to Lightweight Hiking and he makes the point (that I'd forgotten) that the bottom half of a sleeping bag provides very little insulation. He and his wife use a home made quilt rated to 20°F (-7°C), torso-only 3/8" foam mats instead of self-inflating ones, cloths to insulate the head and legs, and carefully selected sleeping sites with as uncompressed ground as possible that will provide optimal natural insulation. The quilt works out at half a kilo of quilt per person (or was it a quarter of a kilo :eek: ?). They also use a tarp instead of a tent.
I've got a sneaking suspicion that he and his wife sleep warm, but he makes some valid points which do fly in the face of traditional wisdom. Or should that be modern consumerist wisdom...
Book: http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0963235931?ie=UTF8&tag=woodstheartof-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=0963235931
Spaniel man
07-01-2009, 12:25
Have you looked a these:
http://www.facewest.co.uk/Mountain-Equipment-Military-III-Sleeping-Bag.html
I've been using one for about five years, and it's excellent, warm, roomy, and fits nicely in my sabre 45.
I agree that the ME military TDS III is a great bag, but like all the Woodlore and Nanok ones it does take up a lot of space and weigh heavy. I bought my TDS III to cope with cold weather camping, but found that 90% of the time it was overkill, so I went for the down option and a slightly lower temp rating. You can fit the big synthetic bags in a Sabre 45... but dont think about putting too much else in! My down bag weighs 1100g, packs to half the size of the synthetic, and is more tolerant of temperature variations (ie when it is mild, you don't feel so hot and sticky). I can fit the bag in the base of my Sabre 45, and still have room for everything else. I can't stand having lots of kit hanging off the outside! Last year in the spring I did a long trip (7 days) in Scotland without resupply, and fitted everything in the Sabre with two side pockets added. Given that there was 7 kg of food, I don't think a big synthetic bag was an option. That said the TDS II is a fair bit smaller, lighter, and still probably warm enough.
You really shouldn't store either a down or a synthetic compressed though, as it ruins the loft.
Try Alpkit for down, if ME are too pricey.
VirusKiller
07-01-2009, 13:08
ME is pricey and I'm looking at the Alpkit bags now. @Wink: Which down bag do you have?
Does anyone have any experience of any compromises (build quality, water resistance, features) there are in the Alpkit Pipedream range compared the SkyeHigh bags? I'm thinking that the SkyeHigh 800 (£95, 1.5kg, -10°) or Pipedream 600 (£130, 0.95kg, -10°) would probably fit the bill. Leaning towards the Pipedream 600 because it is so light.
Edit: The descriptions on the Alpkit website seem refreshingly honest, particularly when a design component isn't the best for cost reasons.
:lmao: when I read the title, I wondered why you wanted to put your Sabre45 in a sleeping-bag - that's caring for your kit too much IMHO ;)
The advice given already is sound, Alpkit bags are good and will be a bit lighter too for the same rating.
The outers on the Alpkit and Nanok bags are fairly durable. I don't think they'll be as durable as the 58 pattern but then again does it need to be squaddie-proof?
Edit: You might want to think about getting a big dry-bag with an air-valve, this way you can stuff the sleeping bag into the dry bag to live in your sabre uncompressed and then squish it down the compress and expel the air when you want to fill the rucksack with other gear and head out. You'll have to air the sleeping bag and let it "rest" periodically, but if you want to have it on standby for a couple of weeks at a time - it'll be fine.
How do the dry bags with valves work? Swmbo bought a bag we use to put a quilt in for storage. Once you place it in the bag you put a hoover on the nozzle and it sucks all the air from it, it goes impressively small. This would be good to compress a sleeping bag before going out but you'd be pretty stuck when its time to pack up, unless you brought the hoover along too. :D
VirusKiller
07-01-2009, 13:54
My dry bag is a Mountain Equipment one. You don't need a hoover and just compress the bag manually with the top sealed up and the valve open. I've only used it with my old Karrimor "travel luggage" and not with a top loading rucksack but, presumably, there will be enough room to open and close the valve.
Alpkit are completely out of Pipedreams BTW.
ScarletPimpernel
07-01-2009, 15:34
I used to store my Softie uncompressed by hanging it by its loops from a couple of panel pins tapped into the side of a (MoD) wardrobe.
My down bag is also actually a Mountain Equipment. It's the Lightline Ultra 450, but it was bought for me by a sister with a wealthy husband and too much money! Brilliant bag but expensive. I would probably have gone for the Alpkit if I had to pay for it myself, or a discontinued ME down bag. You sometimes see them reduced at clearance places when they are the old model.
The reason that my bag is dearer is probably more to do with the extra features rather than the warmth or quality compared to the Alpkit. There may be a slight difference in the "fill power" of the down, but I'm not sure. Some cheaper brands substitute the goose down with inferior duck down, which doesn't loft so much for the weight, so check before you buy. I think Alpkit is goose though.
My bag has a drilite outer shell which is extremely water resistant (you can pour water on it and it runs off), and there is elastication inside the bag so that the inner layer fits snugly round your body, leaving the outer free to loft. This really does seem to make it feel warmer. However, I am only 5'6", with a 40" chest. Anyone much bigger might find my bag a little small, I suspect. The Alpkit ones may be bigger. I reckon if you phone them up they would talk it through with you. I've bought a couple of things from them in the past and they were very helpful.
I store my down bag in a mesh sack about the size of a small binbag when not in use. Alpkit used to sell those as well!
Just remembered something else! Not all down bags have the down evenly distributed. The stuff you are lying on compresses so is useless for insulation, so lots of bags (including mine) put more of the insulation on the top layer. These bags will feel warmer than a bag with the same "fill weight" but spread more evenly...as long as you don't turn over and sleep on your front in the night!
Also, make sure you are comparing down bags on the basis of the weight of the down, not the overall weight of the bag. A bag with a very lightweight shell and no zip may have a lot more down (and therefore warmth) than a bag weighing the same total weight, but using heavier shell materials.
As ever, it's always a compromise between weight/cost/warmth. You have to decide your priorities. You will only ever win on two out of the three!
VirusKiller
07-01-2009, 16:49
Unsurprisingly, a look at the ME website left me lusting after the Lightline or Snowline... I can't justify a £200+ bag yet though.
Edit: The Snowline will probably be too warm.
The 2007 lightline can be had for £160ish I think. Still plenty £...
VirusKiller
07-01-2009, 17:02
I got confused. For some reason I had in mind that the Snowline was the one I wanted and I was even considering bidding on one on eBay at the moment! However, it's already at £125 and a re-read of the specs tells me it will be too warm for my requirements. The Frostline most closely matches the Alpkit bags I've looked at, but is more expensive and weighs more...
Andy2112
07-01-2009, 17:43
Just my two pennys worth
Mountain Hardwear Lamina 32.
I use mine last month at the midlands meet and slept in my base layers, i also use it in the summer as well.
This really is a minefield, isn't it!?
VirusKiller
02-02-2009, 09:52
Barring finding a great deal on a Mountain Equipment bag, I'm going to go for the Alpkit Pipedream 600. I'm on the waiting list, but still might not get one from the March shipment...
Edit: Looks like May now :(
Melonfish
02-02-2009, 10:15
so its best to store your bag out of the compression sack?
what about all the time its spent say in the store etc?
is it ok to hang the bag? i.e. in a cupboard? i've got a nice long internal cupboard i could hang mine in.
VirusKiller
02-02-2009, 10:33
so its best to store your bag out of the compression sack?
what about all the time its spent say in the store etc?
is it ok to hang the bag? i.e. in a cupboard? i've got a nice long internal cupboard i could hang mine in.From what I've read, the brands that do it properly will store and ship the bags uncompressed. Hanging the bag in a cupboard seems to be quite popular, though I'll probably put mine under a bed with my Thermarest.
so its best to store your bag out of the compression sack?
what about all the time its spent say in the store etc?
is it ok to hang the bag? i.e. in a cupboard? i've got a nice long internal cupboard i could hang mine in.
Definitely best to store it out of the compression sack. Otherwise you loose loft much faster.
Hanging the bag in a cupboard is a good idea. Works perfectly.
Otherwise you can store it in a big netting bag or a big pillow-case (the bigger the better).
Oh, and always stuff your sleeping bag into the compression sack and/or storing bag. Never roll... :nono:
Melonfish
02-02-2009, 12:53
ah, right then
time to unroll by sleeping bag out of its compression sack (to be fair it arrived like that) and pop it in the cupboard.
i'll be stuffing it in the stuff sack from now on tho.
cheers chaps ;)
pete
VirusKiller
10-02-2009, 13:44
Latest update...
I've just finished reading Beyond Backpacking: Ray Jardine's Guide to Lightweight Hiking (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beyond-Backpacking-Jardines-Lightweight-Hiking/dp/0963235931/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1234268183&sr=1-1) and have given serious consideration to making a quilt to his design instead of using a sleeping bag. However, my current thoughts are that the Alpkit Pipedream bags are so light, I'm not convinced that I'd make significant weight savings over even a Jardine quilt (though my mind is not closed to the possibility).
It's funny, but I find that until I actually get around to writing down my specific requirements, my purchasing decision changes on a regular basis. Luckily, the Alpkit waiting list is actually allowing me to sort out what I really want:
I'd like a bag that I can use as much as possible in the UK in multiple seasons.
I really don't want to have to use a "Winter" bag as a duvet whenever it gets above freezing (though I'd be perfectly prepared to do so in the Summer, if necessary).
I want to go as light as possible.
I don't sleep hot, but probably not too cold either.
I'm unlikely to travel regularly (if at all) to Scotland when it's really cold, but I want to be able to sleep out in my local woods (Beds/Bucks) in the middle of Winter (-5º to -10º?).
I've emailed Alpkit to see if I can get away with a Pipedream 400, rather than the 600. The 400 is obviously much more of an "all-year-round" bag for the UK and it's weight (750g) is fantastic. Perhaps the current cold snap is weighing on my mind (it has reached -10º where I live this week) and I'd be fine with a 400 plus extra clothes if necessary?
However, another thought I've had is to use a Pipedream 400 with a shaped "duvet" cover (a thinner and lighter version of the Ray Jardine quilt (http://www..rayjardine.com/ray-way/Quilt-Kit/index.htm) to extend its temperature range when needed. Something like a lightweight version of the US Army sleeping system.
Incidentally, I highly recommend Ray Jardine's book (he has a newer book, Trail Life: Ray Jardine's Lightweight Backpacking (http://www.rayjardine.com/ray-way/Trail-Life/index.htm), which supercedes the one linked to above). Although he is pretty hardcore when it comes to lightweight hiking, his ideas are very thought provoking and that's a good thing, even if I don't think they are all directly transferrable to non-hiking activities such as bushcraft.
Wild Thing
10-02-2009, 16:14
Hi
I know you have already done a lot of research into this and have pretty much made up your mind, but have you thought of a Snugpak bag.
I recently bought a Snugpak Softie Elite. Rated to -5 with an extreme of -10. I recently slept out with it in -2 degrees and was quite comfortable. It packs up quite small, is quite light and fitted in the bottom of my old 45 litre pack though I have not tried in in my Sabre 45 yet. Also, the bag is not madly expensive.
Just a thought
Regards
Phill
VirusKiller
10-02-2009, 16:49
Is that the Elite 3?
I have the Elite 4 which keeps me warm enough in Scottish winters along with the underblanket.
I think it was sapper1 who had an Elite 5 for sale not so long ago, might be worth having a look at those.
VirusKiller
10-02-2009, 19:41
Thanks Shewie, but they're just too heavy for my needs.