View Full Version : Bushcraft first aid training
There are numerous threads about first aid. What kit to use in a situation. Are you allowed to give treatment/medication. Etc. For those of us who haven't had a career where first aid training/experience is included this is a bit of a minefield.
Can anyone recommend a training course in south Wales that would cover the basics and the ethical/legal issues but geared to the outdoors? Even better, if the training incorporates natural resources.
I'm looking for something for myself and my 11 and 13 year old sprogs. All help appreciated.
Ta,
Nigel
crazydave
28-11-2008, 15:46
trouble now is its so pc that you often cant treat as required incase someone gets the hump. first aid at work is now a useless qualification.
st johns/red cross I think still do public first aid courses on an evening for around 7 weeks or so which covers usefull basic old fashioned first aid.
collins gem do a pocket first aid manual as well.
Don't know about S. Wales, but if you can get up to N. Wales, Plas y Brenin runs REC (Rescue and Emergency Care) two-day courses that are specifically geared to outdoor situations - much more realistic than the First Aid at Work certificate but covers the same basic stuff and adds how to improvise care in the outdoors and caring for the injured party over a longer period (the ambulance isn't necessarily on its way!)
Not cheap. But Good.
As for litigation:
I am not at all sure about this (if you are lawyer, an opinion would be appreciated) but I thought that we have a stronger legal position if we do something rather than if we let someone bleed/suffocate/drown/whatever for fear of being sued. Morally, of course, I certainly couldn't stand about watching someone suffer (Lawyers will, of course, be unable to offer any opinions on morality:) )
Isn't there (or shouldn't there be) some sort of "duty of care" to those around us - or am I just an old hippy, sadly out of his time. (I'm listening to Crosby Stills and Nash as I type this:rolleyes: )
As for litigation:
I am not at all sure about this (if you are lawyer, an opinion would be appreciated) but I thought that we have a stronger legal position if we do something rather than if we let someone bleed/suffocate/drown/whatever for fear of being sued. Morally, of course, I certainly couldn't stand about watching someone suffer (Lawyers will, of course, be unable to offer any opinions on morality:) )
Isn't there (or shouldn't there be) some sort of "duty of care" to those around us - or am I just an old hippy, sadly out of his time. (I'm listening to Crosby Stills and Nash as I type this:rolleyes: )
This issue was raised when I did my FA@W course with St Johns a few years ago. The answer given was "Go on your instincts". The instructor also said that he'd never heard of anyone being prosecuted because they'd tried to help someone, but you need to use common sense. If you feel you're making things worse, or you feel out of your depth, then the best thing you can do is make sure more qualified help arrives as soon as possible. He also said that he had never heard of anyone being prosecuted for not doing something :dunno:
G
Scots_Charles_River
28-11-2008, 20:15
BASP - British Assoc.of Ski Patrollers -do good 2 day coures, Emergency First Aid in the Outdoors, they do Uk and Euro courses. I have done two in the past and I'm doing one next week.
www.basp.org.uk
Nick
squantrill
28-11-2008, 22:00
[quote=nigeltm;468910
Can anyone recommend a training course in south Wales that would cover the basics and the ethical/legal issues but geared to the outdoors? Even better, if the training incorporates natural resources.
l[/quote]
Nigel, check out the local canoe club and ask to do a first aide course there, all canoe kayak instructors have to do a first aide course every three years, they should be able to help you out.
The aquatic first aide is not the one you want though as you do lots of stuff on the water and thats not really bushcraft.. I did mine one year it was a full three day outdoors first id course that was really good it was also at a kayak centre..
crazydave
28-11-2008, 23:37
litigation - you cant be sued for doing nothing. infact it would probably wake the pc brigade up if more people admitted to knowing what to do but not bothering for legal reasons. there was the case of the community support officers who watched a kid drown because they said they werent trained in such situations.
the only issue I'm aware of is that if you start cpr then technically you are not allowed to stop unless a doctor says so.
the best buy out is 'I am not a doctor, do you still wish me to go ahead?' another is dont give pills make them ask and pay for them. that way you are not prescribing.
to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault
the whole wasting time in casualty gets me wound up. as a kid I'd fall off the swings onto the concrete and smack my head, go home complaining of a headache, get given and aspirin and I'd go to bed. now a child bumps into a door at school, goes to hospital in an ambulance, gets a scan and is monitored every hour overnight while the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim. sorry rant over :cussing:
Neanderthal
29-11-2008, 12:30
[QUOTE=crazydave;469126
the only issue I'm aware of is that if you start cpr then technically you are not allowed to stop unless a doctor says so.
[/QUOTE]
Or the rescuer is exhausted.
Stu
the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim
Don't get me started on risk assessments at school. Many of my colleagues will no longer take students out on activity trips due to the enormous workload involved in preparing risk assessments for the most ludicrous things - like crossing a busy road.
Both St John's and Red Cross run courses to various levels where you are and it is possible to get a course tailored to your requirements ie outdoor injuries, however there would have to be more than just one applicant. Give your local Red Cross a call and see what they can offer, a full standard first aid certificate is generally around the £60 mark and that is the highest level there is, in fact it is the same course as their own volunteers do for covering large events for the public. Another way is, dependant on your circumstances and community spirit, you could join as a volunteer in which case all training is free, and you can go on to take more advanced skills training such as administering oxygen therapy, moving and handling casualties, trauma management and a host of other skills. Courses for the public are either over a period of 14 weeks at one night a week for 2 hours, or, many are now done over 2 weekends Sat/Sun and almost all now are done using live casualties made up with simulated wounds which are very realistic. These courses are not to be confused with a First Aid at Work certificate which employers must by law provide a certain quantity of their workforce to deal with injuries only in the workplace costing around £280 per person and is of a lesser standard to the one I have mentioned earlier.
As regards lotions, potions, and pills this is a real quagmire legally. A layman can be prosecuted for administering any of these without adequate professionally recognised training, even then a set of questions must be asked/answered before you can even give paracetamol. You are not even allowed to provide sun cream, in case someone has an allergic reaction which would then open you up to procecution. No win No fee lawyers have brought about this sad state of affairs where everyone these days are too frightened to lend a hand in case of litigation. I for one could not stand by and watch someone injured, I feel it is my moral duty to step forward and help and to hang with the consequencies, but hopefully I am well enough trained and practiced enough with many years experience under my belt that I would not do anything wrong.
He' s left the building
30-11-2008, 17:30
Last time I stopped at a traffic accident the bloke I was giving CPR died, not one person even mentioned litigation from all present at the scene: police, paramedic, family of the deceased, by-standers.
Do not be afraid of litigation in an emergency situation, the so-called horror stories are all media hype.
Do a St Johns course or your employers HSE-approved training provider if you're working. For expeds in remote areas do one of the remote medical courses available.
Common sense should rule your actions. CPR to be honest fails a lot more times than it succeeds, certainly away from a 'high tec' ward/hospital environment and as someone who has carried out CPR on many occasions I can confirm that its very hard work.
If you start try and keep going as long as possible until the professionals arrive, stop when you have, as someone else said, you can get exhausted carrying out the procedure.
Don't give any medication to anyone you don't really know well, its not a safe practise, I'll only give an over the counter analgesic for instance, to family or friends I do know well and am 100% confident they have used that type in the past without adverse reaction, friends have to ask first, family I've no problem giving to as I'll know their history and any possible conflicts involved with existing medication.
Do the courses, and I can't emphasise the importance of practising your skills after training, it can be fun bandaging the wife from time to time;) Its OK training and reading a book or three and thinking you are fine, you are not, when T**** its a whole new world, there will be some panic, some anxiety, some confusion, and all on your level,; be very careful on the procedures you carry out plus make sure they are safe
procedures and you are capable of them
If your interested in legal aspects its worth looking into 'Duty of care under common law'
...snip..
to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault
...snip...
I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not. If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.
I always feel that if you can do something and no one else is doing anything, act. Better to try to help than to watch someone suffer, I think.
Nag.
Guys thanks for all your advice.
Unfortunately as a contractor my employer is not going to pay for any training. So I think a call to the St. Johns and a canoe club are called for.
Thanks again.
Well I just checked out the St. Johns website. They offer some cracking courses, as long as you live in England! I'd love to do the Activity and Motorcycle courses, but would need to travel over 2 hours just to get to a training centre. Not ideal :rolleyes:
I've fired off a query to find out if there are plans to offer more local training. I'll post up their reply in case it would be of interest to any other taffies hanging around sunny souh Wales :)
Well I just checked out the St. Johns website. They offer some cracking courses, as long as you live in England! I'd love to do the Activity and Motorcycle courses, but would need to travel over 2 hours just to get to a training centre. Not ideal :rolleyes:
I've fired off a query to find out if there are plans to offer more local training. I'll post up their reply in case it would be of interest to any other taffies hanging around sunny souh Wales :)
We have a St John's in Aberdare, plenty of others I think in South Wales too
ScarletPimpernel
02-12-2008, 00:48
I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not.
Reminiscent of the busload of nurses from BMH Rinteln that was apparently coming to the NAAFI disco....
If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.
In Germany it's an offence not to stop and help at a RTA. A first aid kit has to be carried in every car; if you have to use it, the Polizei at the scene will give you a chit to replace it. During my various tours sausage-side I've stopped at several accidents and given first aid, with no suggestion of any disapprobation from the authorities. The last time was earlier this year, when I saw a moped rider hit by a car. The rider was taken to the hospital I was working at, so I was able to visit her the next day; no suggestion of a law suit!
crazydave
02-12-2008, 02:12
I got told that one too when I was in Germany, back in '89. I have a feeling it may be a good old Army Urban Myth, but then again maybe not. If I remember right there was a change to German law which essentially, shall we say, encouraged people to help someone rather than not due to various stories of being sued. Of course that too my be a load of dog poo too.
I always feel that if you can do something and no one else is doing anything, act. Better to try to help than to watch someone suffer, I think.
Nag.
same time as me then, I was in paderborn at the time handing out condoms and chasing the infamous monica round the accomodation chart. it created quite a stir as the army hadnt long revoked crown immunity causing a lot of medics in the uk to do a basic st johns course for the free insurance. Our MO told us and gave us some tips to avoid trouble. the guys on aarse probably know who it was.
Minotaur
03-12-2008, 12:10
Are you allowed to give treatment/medication. Etc.
Yes to treatment, but medication is a really big issue. I would be amazed if you can find a course that does prescribing under experdition level. Ever then it is a big legal issue.
For those of us who haven't had a career where first aid training/experience is included this is a bit of a minefield.
The more you know the worse it gets.
Can anyone recommend a training course in south Wales that would cover the basics and the ethical/legal issues but geared to the outdoors? Even better, if the training incorporates natural resources.
I'm looking for something for myself and my 11 and 13 year old sprogs. All help appreciated.
Ta,
Nigel
Around Brecan there used to be a company called Bigfoot, that ran an Outdoor First Aid at work course.
Best bet find your local Mountain Rescue they will use someone.
The Outdoor courses are different, because the normal course is based around an 8 minute ambulance, the outdoor course is based around at least a 30 minute wait.
As far as I know none of the major organisations run an outdoor course, the closest they go is what is called the Oil Rig course.
Your best bet for the Kids would be a scout group, or St John(Red Cross as far as I know do not have a youth division anymore, but that could be area related).
Red Cross run various courses tailored to the groups needs/ wants. There will be a Red Cross branch near you I guarantee it, we get everywhere nowadays Lol. There is no such qualification as an outdoor first aid at work, the HSE only recognize the standard first aid at work certificate, you can however have bolt ons for the outdoors but drug prescribing is a definite no no as is the use of tourniques for any first aider. A standard first aid certificate holder (the highest level of training and competance available to the public) is allowed to administer only paracetamol for pain relief but only after certain criteria is met, the other is aspirin in the case of heart attacks again only when certain questions are asked and criteria met. As I said before a first aid at work course will cost over £300 but doing a more in depth standard certificate course as a member of the public, paying for it yourself will cost only £60 and nowadays we tend to tag the defib training onto this. Also I would like to clarify a little misconception if I may. It does not matter which first aid course you take, the treatment is exactly the same whether the ambulance will take 10 mins or 10 days, the procedure is the same. The only difference taught for differing ambulance eta is for fractures, and you will be taught both procedures on all courses even on the basic course. I hope this perhaps clears a few things up. May I also point out that although the Red Cross as an organisation no longer have youth group as part of their membership they do still cater in a major way to youth and schools first aid training nationwide. Also it may interest you that the Red Cross certificates are now recognised nationaly and internationaly.
Minotaur
03-12-2008, 23:42
Red Cross run various courses tailored to the groups needs/ wants. There will be a Red Cross branch near you I guarantee it, we get everywhere nowadays Lol.
Yes, including the American Red Cross running Wilderness courses.
There is no such qualification as an outdoor first aid at work, the HSE only recognize the standard first aid at work certificate, you can however have bolt ons for the outdoors but drug prescribing is a definite no no as is the use of tourniques for any first aider.
The HSE reconise three different First Aid at Work Certificates. The Standard, Offshore, and Diving.
As you said there are also bolt ons for different enviroments. Which do include adminstering drugs, for specfic reasons.
A standard first aid certificate holder (the highest level of training and competance available to the public) is allowed to administer only paracetamol for pain relief but only after certain criteria is met, the other is aspirin in the case of heart attacks again only when certain questions are asked and criteria met.
Oh no there not! :yikes:
Under one very specfic curcumstances you can give asprin, but that is all.
If you are a Red Cross member working for the Red Cross, if asked for, you can ask some questions, and provide the recommend doses of Paracetamol. The questions are approved by a doctor, and are basically what someone who can prescribe would ask. It is actually the same system for all non-doctors, regardless of drugs. They set up a protacal, and it is followed. I am not sure how the Nurse perscriping system works, but I think they are taking bits of the doctor course.
Also I am not actual sure what the highest level course a member of the public can get is. A First Aid at work Holder can do a EMT course, but there are all sorts of courses that you can do, that are higher than the First Aid at Work. The BTLS should be available to the Public, and that is the surposed to be a higher than first aid at work.
As I said before a first aid at work course will cost over £300 but doing a more in depth standard certificate course as a member of the public, paying for it yourself will cost only £60 and nowadays we tend to tag the defib training onto this.
It will cost you over £2000 to get a full Wilderness EMT certificate. First aid training courses are expensive. If you pay the £300, it counts and you can use it at work, and to go on other courses. At one point the two courses(Public, and Work - Work ignored children for a start) were slightly different, but the Red Cross always taught them the same. Which in a weird way made more sense.
Also I would like to clarify a little misconception if I may. It does not matter which first aid course you take, the treatment is exactly the same whether the ambulance will take 10 mins or 10 days, the procedure is the same. The only difference taught for differing ambulance eta is for fractures, and you will be taught both procedures on all courses even on the basic course. I hope this perhaps clears a few things up.
The standard first aid at work course is based around the 8 minute ambulance time. The offshore one is not because there is no way that casualty is going to be in hosiptal in under an hour.
I agree the procedure is the same, but a Wilderness course is double the hours of the standard course, so they teach more of the procedure than the standard first aid course because you are not going to wait 10 days for the next life saving step. For a start are you going to do CPR for ten days? Someone has been stung by a bee, massive allergic reaction, helecopter is going to take two hours, do you let them die or inject aredaline?
Wilderness medicine is a whole field on its own. Doctors do Wilderness medical courses.
May I also point out that although the Red Cross as an organisation no longer have youth group as part of their membership they do still cater in a major way to youth and schools first aid training nationwide. Also it may interest you that the Red Cross certificates are now recognised nationaly and internationaly.
Red Cross certificates are not recognised nationaly and internationaly unless something has massively changed. It was one of the big problems within the organisation. For a start the first aid at work cert, is a HSE cert, under their guidlines, and enforcement. Almost all of the other courses work that way, so they would have to be teaching what the course body wants them to, so the Red Cross on the certificate means nothing. The big problem is they taught the information but as their course, which outside of the Red Cross means nothing, because it does not have the realvant backing, or awareness.
I am not Red Cross bashing, I am a Red Cross member, and it is a brillant organisation, but like any it has its problems.
Minotaur
04-12-2008, 00:08
litigation - you cant be sued for doing nothing. infact it would probably wake the pc brigade up if more people admitted to knowing what to do but not bothering for legal reasons. there was the case of the community support officers who watched a kid drown because they said they werent trained in such situations.
As it stands, First aiders do not have a Duty of care, but this is coming, or being threaten for a while. Duty of care means you have to help, and if you get do not, and they find out you will be in trouble. If you have a Public you cannot be sued for doing something. If you have a First Aid at Work you are legally responsiable for your actions, insured at work, and if you plan to use it outside work, spend the £12 quid for the extra insurance. The Red cross used to throw the insurance for free, but worth a check.
the only issue I'm aware of is that if you start cpr then technically you are not allowed to stop unless a doctor says so.
This sounds like the their not dead thing. Which is basically only a Paramedic, or Doctor can say a person is dead, and stop treatment.
the best buy out is 'I am not a doctor, do you still wish me to go ahead?' another is dont give pills make them ask and pay for them. that way you are not prescribing.
To charge someone for drugs you need to be a Chemist, so that is breaking the law. Looks left, and right, you are would be better off giving them the drugs, and then dening it till your dying day. I never did it, no one saw me do, I did not do it, the Bart Simpson defense.
to show how daft it gets a fellow medic stopped on the autobahn to help at an rta, without thinking he stuck his hand up a girls skirt to pinch off a femoral bleed out and saved her life in the process. three months later he was done for indecent assault
There is a really famous one of a First Aider giving CPR to a member of the Public. He did what he was taught, and got sued. That will teach him to save someones life, or to undo a bra strap, before starting CPR.
the whole wasting time in casualty gets me wound up. as a kid I'd fall off the swings onto the concrete and smack my head, go home complaining of a headache, get given and aspirin and I'd go to bed. now a child bumps into a door at school, goes to hospital in an ambulance, gets a scan and is monitored every hour overnight while the school has to go through its risk assessments and notify its insurance company of a possible claim. sorry rant over :cussing:
On the other hand I know of someone who discharge himself against medical advice after banging his head. He died from bleeding in his brain, two days later. The problem is that insurance companies stopped fighting claims, and now they have started again because it is costing them money. We live in a world were we have to guard against the worse happening, and everyone must be treated as an idiot. Look at the 'Baby P' case, they are up the creek because it is in black, and white what they should have done, but did not.
crazydave
04-12-2008, 00:37
[QUOTE:] To charge someone for drugs you need to be a Chemist, so that is breaking the law. Looks left, and right, you are would be better off giving them the drugs, and then dening it till your dying day. I never did it, no one saw me do, I did not do it, the Bart Simpson defense. [quote:]
the buy out is that by paying you they are requesting what you have offered so all you are doing is providing the goods not prescribing them which is the chemists job.once purchased its up to them whether they take it or not. looked into this in detail a few years back so cant remember the exact wording. you can buy aspirin from the corner shop the risk is in saying 'here take these'. if someone says I have a headache have you got any painkillers then technically you are okay charging just covers your back if its a stranger. when I was a megabowl manager we often got customers asking for something for a headache (normally mothers during the party season) and by stressing that you would have to charge them after they requested it them made it clear where you stood so minimising any negative feedback, never had a complaint, same goes for plaster allergies when people had their nails ripped off, charged em 10p and made them fillin the accident book. recently though there is the thing about not supplying enough for an overdose which is more silliness as you just go down the road to buy more.
if you want daft the woman in morrisons today giving out samples of pringles had to give them to the parents and then the parents were allowed to dose their kids with crisps. she wasn't allowed to give freebies to anyone under 18.
Minotaur, the 3 HSE courses you name are the same certificated course but just different bolt ons relevant to activity.
Aspirin can only be given in the case of heart attack and not as pain relief as stated and you are spot on with the protocols for providing them.
You are again spot on with the differences between the level of training between FAW and the higher level of standard first aid for public. I just wish the HSE course would update to competancy based bringing it in line with modern techniques but I am informed they are now looking at doing this.
Ok I exaggerated by saying 10 mins to 10 days but as I said and as you agree the treatment and procedures are exactly the same, but obviously you got my drift.
Wilderness medicine I assume means making lotions and potions from natural things found in the outdoors, a great notion but as you rightly suggest this if for the more advanced persons like doctors, chemists and the like, no first aider would be allowed to administer any concoction be it home made or shop bought outside those already named (the exception would be burns kits).
A British Red Cross certificate for standard first aid is recognised throughout the UK and now in the EU and in many countries throughout the world, although it has always been recognised throughout the UK it is only very recently been accepted in the EU and beyond thanks to these new directives and standards in health and social care which the Red Cross have been working towards for the last 7 - 8 years, I believe they have only come into effect end of last year or the beginning of this year.
The HSE certificate is only acceptable here in the UK, but the standard first aid is the accepted certificate here and abroad and it is this standard first aid certificate which the international ER teams have, because their level of competance in first aid training as provided by Red Cross is recognised all over. It is only the standard certificate that is recognised mind you, not any other ones.
My main reason for pointing out these things in the first place is to highlight the fact that Joe Public can get the highest level of first aid training, locally and it does'nt need to cost the earth, for most people a 4 day standard course for the public is only around £60 all in, and I feel this is far from expensive for the training, and peace of mind knowing they can deal with any situation that could arise, and the fact that these courses are available, and no need to pay big bucks for a course.
Hope all this makes sense.
Minotaur
04-12-2008, 15:13
Crazy Dave,
That actual makes sense, but as a business you have Public Liability insurance. The modern problem is that you will get sued, and then it is a roll of the dice.
I buy Codine in 100's from Boots it does make me laugh. It is really funny when I buy ibuprofen at the same time.
Sniper,
You make sense.
I had not heard that the Public had gone international. The HSE course is basically the American course, in fact most of the courses are some version of an American course. The First Aid at work translates, so I surpose it makes sense that the Public would as well. It is such a nightmare at times. I really wish they would just give up, and take the US system full stop. There books make so much more sense, and they design everything so it builds on what you already know. If you get a chance, have a look at the BTLS(Not sure what the ITLS is like) book, it is surposed to be the next step after the First Aid At Work.
The Wilderness title is used on almost all courses that are outside of the Pre-Hospital window. The way I think it works is that it is Pre-Hospital if you are working towards the Golden Hour. As I said all of the courses are double the length, so they have more in them, training you to take steps you would not normally take.
I agree that the prices are a joke, but the First Aid at work does stand as the bottom run for all of the other courses, unless you go pro. An EMT course will set you back £600 pounds, so it really starts to add up. Espically when you add in retests.
The NVQ version is such a better course, but would be almost unworkable for people not in trade.
I was going to mention ExMed (http://www.exmed.co.uk/index.html) which I thought were in Wales but having re-looked at their website I'm not so sure.
As for the litigation, this is a huge concern for many people and a debate I would not presume to be an expert on. However, I am a Secamb (South East Coast Ambulance Service) Community Responder, this is when I wear my pants on the outside.
However, during the day when my pants are firmly on the inside lol! I am a trainee litigation lawyer. Bring on the scorn!!!! Hows that for a conflict of interest.
It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training. For example I am trained to use, and keep in the house, a defib, give aspirin and hypostop when appropriate, assist a patient with their GTN, and a epipen. These things I can do as I'm trained and proficient in their use.
Through other training I am also proficient in taking BM's readings, checking blood pressure etc however, the ambulance service protocols don't let me do this and so I don't! This keeps me safe and the service safe from any claims. This wouldn't stop irronious claims however I feel confident that there is plenty case law to protect me.
I'd also add that any 'samaritan' law wouldn't stop people trying it on. I'd say that says more about society rather than the legal profession. But I guess I'm biased.
Minotaur
06-12-2008, 09:37
I was going to mention ExMed (http://www.exmed.co.uk/index.html) which I thought were in Wales but having re-looked at their website I'm not so sure.
As for the litigation, this is a huge concern for many people and a debate I would not presume to be an expert on. However, I am a Secamb (South East Coast Ambulance Service) Community Responder, this is when I wear my pants on the outside.
However, during the day when my pants are firmly on the inside lol! I am a trainee litigation lawyer. Bring on the scorn!!!! Hows that for a conflict of interest.
It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training. For example I am trained to use, and keep in the house, a defib, give aspirin and hypostop when appropriate, assist a patient with their GTN, and a epipen. These things I can do as I'm trained and proficient in their use.
Through other training I am also proficient in taking BM's readings, checking blood pressure etc however, the ambulance service protocols don't let me do this and so I don't! This keeps me safe and the service safe from any claims. This wouldn't stop irronious claims however I feel confident that there is plenty case law to protect me.
I'd also add that any 'samaritan' law wouldn't stop people trying it on. I'd say that says more about society rather than the legal profession. But I guess I'm biased.
Wait till you go do the new First Aid At Work, they do not even take pulses any more. That has got so many people. Some people now have four, or five different CPR's depending on circumstances to remember.
Really fancy being a First Responder, but am to city bound at moment.
The law thing is just us becoming Americans, what ever happened to British Common sense?
He' s left the building
06-12-2008, 16:34
It seems to me that the key is sticking to your protocols and not going beyond your training.
That's the key phrase!!!
If you carry medical equipment that you are not familiar with and haven't been trained to use you are on very thin ice!
If you have a current certificate from St Johns or similiar and are carrying basic first-aid equipment (note use of terminology, I'm talking about first-aid equipment, not medical equipment) then you are entirely within your remit and capable of doing the 'Good Samaritan' bit.
I recently viewed a 'bushcraft' video on youtube where the guy said he carried a needle and thread for 'sewing up wounds and stuff'... very scary!!!
My post on another thread:
I carry a small water-proof plastic box (Pelican micro or supermarket special) containing Band-aids, purifying tablets, chewable imodium, chewable nurofen and any other small items to be kept dry and protected.
This box is then placed in a larger zip-pouch, along with: military field dressing, compression and triangular bandages, Sam-splint, AMK Heatsheet, micro-torch, whistle, Leatherman micro-tool (for the forceps and scissors), Laerdal pocket mask.
I think it is important to keep the kit in its own dedicated pouch, so it can be cross-loaded between large bag to day-pack to jacket pocket as required.
Although I have in the past been formally trained in emergency medicine, all the items in this basic kit need little specialist training and this is all I reckon I will need in 99% of 'first-aid' situations I am likely to encounter (in the other 1% if I haven't got access to trauma kit I accept I am unlikely to be of much use)
All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.
Minotaur, taking pulses has been out for some time in the services side, and believe it or not all public and volunteer training for first aid must be done using casualty simulation and reacting casualties according to policy and has been like that for 10 years now but how many actually do it.
All I can say is PC and Health & Safety, plus the "no win no fee" brigade have a helluva lot to answer for. Nobody wants anybody to take resposibility for their own decisions anymore everything has to be regulated and confined.
Nobody has ever been sued or tried for trying to help someone in a critical condition, whether using the right techniques or not, in fact they are usually thanked by the family for trying to do something. However no one ever rammed two skyscrapers with passenger liners until 9/11 so just because it has'nt happened yet, does not mean it won't, and that I think is the true fear.
Minotaur
07-12-2008, 17:09
All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.
Tell me about it. Parents who take their kids out without suncream, medications, or give them enough water used to drive me nuts.
Minotaur, taking pulses has been out for some time in the services side, and believe it or not all public and volunteer training for first aid must be done using casualty simulation and reacting casualties according to policy and has been like that for 10 years now but how many actually do it.
I get the reasoning but it proves the problem with the current set up. The main problem is the second you do something like bag, and mask, you take pulses. As I said I know people who have to remember four or five different CPRs. I find it really hard to remember not to do it the way I was taught originally.
All I can say is PC and Health & Safety, plus the "no win no fee" brigade have a helluva lot to answer for. Nobody wants anybody to take resposibility for their own decisions anymore everything has to be regulated and confined.
I do not mind us taking in the best of what American has to offer, but do we have to get the worst as well.
Nobody has ever been sued or tried for trying to help someone in a critical condition, whether using the right techniques or not, in fact they are usually thanked by the family for trying to do something. However no one ever rammed two skyscrapers with passenger liners until 9/11 so just because it has'nt happened yet, does not mean it won't, and that I think is the true fear.
Has not someone been done for sexual assault, after doing CPR. I admit, I am sure I have been told he dug the hole for himself, but still. Also has a Doctor not been done on the street over killing a biker?
He' s left the building
07-12-2008, 17:29
All that medication is perfectly ok for yourself but you can not prescribe or administer to a third party without the fear of litigation. I am allowed to take sun cream with me when on duty as a first aider at a public event for self use, I can't even lend it to someone else for fear of redress according to the rules, it's crazy.
Yep, my meds are for my personal use only.
As for giving out pills, potions and lotions to others, if you're not:
a. Qualified to do so
and
b. Aware of the casualty/patient medical history
then quite frankly you deserve to be sued.
It's not 'elf n safety gone mad', it's best practice based on past incidents where people have been harmed by enthusiastic amateurs.
Has not someone been done for sexual assault, after doing CPR. I admit, I am sure I have been told he dug the hole for himself, but still. Also has a Doctor not been done on the street over killing a biker?
Have'nt heard of the assault incident mate, but ah doctors are a whole different level from my thoughts, was'nt really talking at that level, it being well above first aid and all. Well look at Dr Harold Shipman but that was'nt by mistake or bad technique, that was murder.
He' s left the building
08-12-2008, 17:26
... look at Dr Harold Shipman but that was'nt by mistake or bad technique, that was murder.
I wouldn't have shared a tarp with him?!!
I was searching for details of that incident on an aircraft where two (Brit?) doctors saved a passengers life by performing a needle decompression using a bottle of vodka and a coat hanger, when I came across this BMJ article dated from 2000 which makes for interesting reading: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=11190 71 The conclusion quotes 'A doctor on board an aircraft may encounter any medical emergency. The standard and range of equipment and drugs available on board varies but can be extensive. It is important that doctors who volunteer to help the crew manage an incident remember the first rule of medicine—“do no harm”—and practise within the limits of their training and knowledge.'
Good advice for anyone to follow; do a recognised course, carry a kit appropriate to your level of training and then follow what you've been taught when needed.
crazydave
08-12-2008, 17:52
I have heard of someone getting done for opening a womans blouse and bra for cpr but cant confirm it.
I wouldnt be surprised though
those two doctors made a posh butterly valve to releive plural swelling didnt they?
He' s left the building
08-12-2008, 18:07
I can't remember? Thinking about it now, it must have been ten years ago (?)
I remember talking to a doctor about it and he said (in his opinion) they took a massive risk and it's not something he would have attempted.
He' s left the building
08-12-2008, 18:25
Found it!
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19950524/ai_n13984214
I quote: 'The surgery, using a metal coathanger, an Evian water bottle, Sellotape and a bottle of brandy, began on Sunday on British Airways flight 032 from Hong Kong to London. It was a complete success. Ms Dixon even ate breakfast towards the end of the 14-hour flight.'
Incredible???!!!
More interesting reading about being a 'good samaritan' from the BMJ (2002) http://student.bmj.com/search/pdf/02/04/edit.pdf (starts on second page), although this piece is aimed at student doctors and not the lay-person.
if you can get hold of a copy Casualty Caer in Mountain Rescue by John Ellerton & MR(E&W) is a very good book to read. Just ignore the bit about drugs etc as you'll not have access to them anyway.
It is specifically geared to UK outdoors environment
http://www.waterstones.com/waterstonesweb/displayProductDetails.do?sku=5 617637
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Casualty-Care-Mountain-Rescue-Ellerton/dp/0950176575
The syllabus:
http://www.longtownmrt.org.uk/CasualtyCaresyllabus2005-8.pdf
Minotaur
08-12-2008, 20:12
I can't remember? Thinking about it now, it must have been ten years ago (?)
I remember talking to a doctor about it and he said (in his opinion) they took a massive risk and it's not something he would have attempted.
A lot of Pre-hospital trained people, will think outside the box, because they turn up with what is in the bag, and verhicle so if they have not got it, and the person needs it to survive, they have to do something. Also a lot of the reading, and other pre-hospital people, will be full of these stories.
Dana Hawkeye
09-12-2008, 13:14
The UK Remote Medics/Offshore Medics Course is for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors. The UK Mountain & Wilderness Medicine course is also for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors. As far as I know, the standard for First Aid in the UK has to be HSE Approved.
Did you know, that Nurses are not First-aid trained unless they have taken the 'extra' course? BTLS, by the way, does not count as a First-aid course. The NMC have recently revised the 'protocols' on what to do if a casualty is found outside of a NHS facility - Basically, only do what you feel you are competant and capable of doing. On NO account give any medicines as they are not prescribed.
Minotaur
11-12-2008, 13:50
The UK Remote Medics/Offshore Medics Course is for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors.
There is a First Aid at Work course designed for this. It is at the HSE website.
The UK Mountain & Wilderness Medicine course is also for qualified Paramedics/Nurses/Doctors. As far as I know, the standard for First Aid in the UK has to be HSE Approved.
I sort of agree, to do any of the 'Wilderness' course you have to have the quailification, so you have to be a Doctor to do the Doctor course. What appeals to me, is you can get an EMT cert, and turn it into a 'Wilderness' cert, and then just keep the 'Wild' cert.
Did you know, that Nurses are not First-aid trained unless they have taken the 'extra' course?
Yes, but did you know this is true of Doctors as well. Pre-hospital care, is different, and constantly changes.
BTLS, by the way, does not count as a First-aid course.
Basic Trauma Life Support is not a First aid course?
The point of the American course, was as step up from a First Aid at Work. It was surposed to be aimed at Fireman, Police officers, but here it is being offered to medical Personnel.
The NMC have recently revised the 'protocols' on what to do if a casualty is found outside of a NHS facility - Basically, only do what you feel you are competant and capable of doing. On NO account give any medicines as they are not prescribed.
Which has been the plan for years.
He' s left the building
11-12-2008, 16:13
Professional medical personnel must comply with their employers clinical governance, simple.
The original query I think has been answered, do a St Johns or similar HSE approved course and stick to what you learn on that course, simple.
Bothwell_Craig
30-12-2008, 19:27
If there's one thing that always seems to get everyones knickers in a twist its liability during a first aid incident.
If your not prepared to take the risk then dont even attempt it......just so long as you can live with the consequences :$
I've met loads of people who have attended many re qualifications of their first aid cert and when called upon to deal with a "live" incident go to pieces.
Whats your main purpose of learning first aid? Is it to be able to act effectively in an emergency, to have the knowledge to treat and assist a friend, colleague or loved one, is it as part of your employment?
If it's the latter, then you are perhaps more guided by company regulations than anything else although your basic teachings involving protocols will still remain.
I actually love first aid. I've done loads of it, taught loads of it, saved a few casualties, lost more than I've saved.
I have done it in a professional capacity, voluntary capacity and as a willing member of the public.
I go by the premise that if I attempt to save someones life and it all gos wrong then at least my own conscience will be salved.
I fully understand those who aren't willing to take the risk.
Everyone should have basic first aid knowledge, certificates are fine but as I said earlier, unless you practice it regularly then by the time it comes to having to deal with puke, blood and screaming then it'll all go out the window for most.
I teach first aid to young people and am about to run an adults only course for the Scout Association. That gets them a Scout Association certificate valid for a year. It wont count towards NGB courses, it wont cover you as an appointed first aider in the workplace, but it WILL furnish you with the knowledge to deal effectively with a first aid scenario.
If there was an interest locally then perhaps we could run a first aid course for some on here on the above proviso and as an adults only activity? Though be warned, I recently managed to get a teacher and two pupils in such a fainting state that they had to leave the classroom!
I do love my moulage :grin:
Hello,
Sorry to open up an old thread, but just wanted to clarify a few things.
If you have been trained to perform CPR and are confident to do so - perform it. There are a lot of urban myths about people being sued but there has so far been not one single case. (More info and source: http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm)
As far as meds go, don't be stupid. If someone has a painful tooth or something and want to take a paracetamol then they can. They don't need you to give it to them, or prescribe it, or administer it, or sell it, etc. they can take it themself. If they are so injured that they can not take a paracetamol on their own, then the paracetamol is not going to help them (and is the least of you worries)!
There is a lot of mis-information floating about which scares people off. Don't worry, don't be stupid, just follow your training and do the best you can.
If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to PM me or post here.
Alex
He' s left the building
05-02-2009, 18:13
Thanks for the info Alex, and welcome on-board :)
Thanks for the info Alex, and welcome on-board :)
No worries - hello all!
You can probably guess my specialist subject from my posts...
Alex
Well I finally got my wish and went on the Forest Knights course a couple of weeks ago. Lots of fun and very useful. If they have the time I'd thoroughly recommend this course to anyone looking for an outdoorsy orientated first aid course.
It's got me thinking about bolstering my skills and doing something to keep them fresh. So in the next couple of days I'll contact the south/west Wales Mountain Rescue and see if they'd have a use for me. Yes, I'm just a teensy bit unfit and overweight :) but that is something I can work on. On the plus side I do have the first aid training and as an occasional rock climber I'm confident working with ropes and at height. Between the Mountain Rescue (assuming I get in) and the occasional exped (hope you're listening Wayne, if you need someone to help out and can knock a few quid off the trip ...) I hope to keep the lessons alive and be of more use to people.
So a quick "thank you" to everyone who's contributed to this thread. Some interesting and informative stories and lots of advice.
Sleepy Weasel
20-05-2010, 08:22
Join the Mountain Rescue by all means! I joined NEWSAR (www.newsar.org.uk) in 2006 and haven't looked back, I've also just requalified in the MREW Cascare certificate courtesy of the team and am looking into expanding my cascare skills.
The John Ellerton book is very good, and it does stop people reading over your shoulder at work lunchtimes!
superc0ntra
20-05-2010, 10:03
I don't know about Wales but in Sweden the Red Cross runs first aid courses. Check with them
Scots_Charles_River
20-05-2010, 20:36
I did a renew course last June, not enough 'Scenarios' compared to a BASP or Dave Craig (ex BASP) providers. As the course was specifically for Outdoor Situations as a climbing, kayaking etc coach scenario.
Since then I have only used the skills abroad on holiday, came across a roller skier fitting at the side of road, the highest in europe - Col de Bonnete Restefond, and when driving back to work I saw a motorbiker liying in the road, no on else had stopped.
I need an Outdoor Based 1st aid, 16hrs, for validating me taking my school kids out climbing etc.
I have only used the 1st aid kit in the last 13years for -
1) Large plaster for covering pierced belly buttons, climbing harness can compress (not applied by me)
2) Wet wipes/hand gel for outdoor toileting
3) Tick removal - many times
4) Bee sting removals
Wee also have to carry a bothy bag, in the minibus.
If you need/want to practice skills, then the red cross always need volunteers. Even offering to help at events such as speedways, horse races, club rugby matches etc.
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
20-05-2010, 20:41
Hello,
Sorry to open up an old thread, but just wanted to clarify a few things.
If you have been trained to perform CPR and are confident to do so - perform it. There are a lot of urban myths about people being sued but there has so far been not one single case. (More info and source: http://www.resus.org.uk/pages/legal.htm)
As far as meds go, don't be stupid. If someone has a painful tooth or something and want to take a paracetamol then they can. They don't need you to give it to them, or prescribe it, or administer it, or sell it, etc. they can take it themself. If they are so injured that they can not take a paracetamol on their own, then the paracetamol is not going to help them (and is the least of you worries)!
There is a lot of mis-information floating about which scares people off. Don't worry, don't be stupid, just follow your training and do the best you can.
If anyone has any specific questions, feel free to PM me or post here.
Alex
Exactly, well said.