View Full Version : Which tent for winter?
firecrest
28-10-2008, 22:33
I was finding my double skin domed tent a tad cold for one person, so I recently bought a very cheap one man lightweight tent with a single skin. I know these are prone to condensation but Ill probably be only using it for the meets, just 2 nights at a time. However, having not used it before I can't decide what would be warmest (though hopefully my sleeping bag, clothes and blankets should be keeping me warm) Is a larger domed tent with a fly colder than a smaller single skin?
If I put my tarp over it at night, will it be any warmer?
The tent I got is this model
http://www.the-big-outdoors.com/picts/GELMINIL_MAIN.gif
I pitched it once and Im a little worried about the stability. I cannot find any information on using these lightweight backpacker tents in wind. Has anyone ever bought one, and how would you rate it?
Gailainne
28-10-2008, 22:47
I've never seen a 4 season single skinned tent, (doesnt mean they're arent any) have a look at this site cheaptents (http://www.cheaptents.com/).
My only experience sleeping in a tent (double skinned tunnel) in cold weather was in Sweden earlier this year, averaged about -8 deg C but hit -20 one night, it was the double sleeping bags that kept us comfortable, that and the sleeping mat and reindeer hide :D.
The tent was to keep the wind and weather off, from what I remember a tent only accounts for something like a 2 deg C temp difference.
Sorry couldnt be more help.
Stephen
A small tent very similar to that was used by the ACF for several years when they moved from the old canvas ridge tents to the new nylon "Force 10" ones. Can't make any comments on yours Firecrest but I can tell you the force 10 were rubbish. Very little room inside once your in, they had a reputation for being awkward to get in and out of because of the guy lines at the entrance, kit had to be left outside cos of the lack of space. and when you touched the sides, which is inevitable in that size of tent, when it was raining water would wick through the spot. Thin walls are not very good for keeping in warmth and there is no shielded area for cooking in. The new dome style tents with double skin I find are far superior if a bit heavier, they normaly have a porch area for cooking in too. Sorry if this does'nt go down well, just my own personal opinion, I allways go for 1 size up, so if it's just for me I choose a 2 man tent cos it gives me the space for me and my kit wheras a 1 man tent is only big enough for 1 person and nothing else.
scoops_uk
28-10-2008, 23:01
hopefully my sleeping bag, clothes and blankets should be keeping me warm
If you put blankets over the top of your sleeping bag you may well prevent the bag lofting and insulating you a it should. Sleeping bags are reliant of lofting well to insulate how they should. Putting anything over them that squashes that loft reduces the bags ability to keep you warm.
If you're sleeping solo then as small a double skin tent as you feel comfortable in is generally best, so you reduce the amount of air you need to warm inside. If you're using a two man tent it's worth bringing all your kit inside to try and reduce the internal volume as much as possible.
Simplest solution is to get a sleeping bag that's warm enough to keep you comfy or buy some good wool thermals :D
Scoops
Stephen that little one man tent you used at the previous meet at Morch's looked ok what was it?
alpha_centaur
28-10-2008, 23:07
That tents only got a hydrostatic head of 1000 so it may leak.
From what I can remember about tents, excluding draughts: the smaller the tent the warmer it is, beacause you have less circulating air to heat.
In saying this though I've camped out in -5+ in a cheap eurohike double skin tent that's really only designed for summer usage and I've been fine. But I did have an ancient goose down bag at the time and a good mat to sleep on.
I see it that in winter you have 3 problems: cold, wind and snow.
I would guess a fly plus inner tent will be warmer than a single skin, though I doubt it would make much difference. Many lightweight tents have a mesh inner fly - great for midgies but I can't see it adding to insulation.
However, hooped bivis are usually single skin, and are small, which is likely to be an advantage for warmth. Anyone tried them and can comment if warmer than a tent?
Regarding wind, the hooped bivi wins here as it is so low profile. Even four season mountain tents don't feel secure when its blowing a hoolie at high level.
The third issue is snow. Some mountain tents have snow valances which provide an adjunct to pegs and better draughtproofing too. My Vaude space packer has these, but it doesn't shed snow well. So far it's not collapsed under the weight of snow, but....
I would be really interested to hear of any views on hooped bivis in winter.
The Argos single skin one man tent was a bit notorious for condensation. Having said that, some people have condensation issues with the £300 Hilleberg Akto, which is generally regarded as the best solo tent you can buy.
w00dsmoke
29-10-2008, 00:17
I was at one time a greta fan of hooped bivi's for lightweight wintering. The only hooped bivi I've used other than a home made job was the marines issue cammo double hooped bivi. These have been reviewed here many times.
They are certainly warmer than a tent but they are not without problems:
. Warmer, snug, no problems with wind or snow to that matter as it just helps insulate you.
. Suffers terribly from condensation in the cold-even when well ventilated, a down bag will become damp if a significant amount of your exhaled air circulates within the bivi.
. Awkward to get in to-imaagine the scenario, it's raining heavily, your starting to get damp, it's howling a gail and you want to get your wet gear off and into the bivi ASAP, unless you have a tarp for shelter it's near impossible to do it without you and your sleeping kit getting wet.
. On rainless nights they are fantastic.
. You will get a cold face when sleeping with the door/vents open on a cold night, so a muffler is neccesary.
I must admit, I prefer a small geodesic tent for winter camping, it is warmer than my teepee, and I can still cook, do my domestic inside, comfort level increases because of this.
Intertidal
29-10-2008, 00:17
Firecrest,
Me and Mrs regularly camp in winter - mostly valleys in mountainous areas (Snowdonia, Scotland & Lakes). Mostly we are at locations we can drive to, so weight/bulk is not an issue. We own 5 tents from light(ish) weight backpacking to family sized dome. Our winter favourite is our 20+ year old all cotton Force Ten Mk4. Dunno what it is, but that tent 'feels' warmer. As others have said, reducing draughts keeps things warmer, but may increase condensation. We keep the inner tent closed up at night (mesh panel allows ventilation) but do not peg the fly down tight to the ground (some 'winter' tents have a snow valence for just that purpose and condensation can be considerable).
Our best improvement is to lay a wool blanket over the floor before any other gear goes in, which avoids any clammy feeling from the groundsheet. If the ground is frozen we'll even put down a fleece blanket too, followed by our 'Fat Airic' mats and sleeping bags.
We've used this combo regularly at below -10C and been comfortable. Its quite a lot of bulk, so only really suitable for car camping.
If you've got a bivibag, use that inside the tent too.
Experiment and see what works for you.
Quite a bit of winter camping is about avoiding getting cold and conserving the warmth you generate. We have a pretty good system of cooking, brewing etc all while in your bag. Its all about planning, making sure you have what you need to hand, and avoid getting in and out of the bag or tent too much.
Barn Owl
29-10-2008, 00:27
I've been using a £9.99 asda 2 man at the last 2 meets at Morchs'.
It's done very well as we've had really heavy rain and gales up there.
Condensation- a bit,but that doesn't matter really as I use a Belgian bag with w/proof bottom or bivi bag.
Only use it to keep wind off mainly.
Gailainne
29-10-2008, 10:44
Stephen that little one man tent you used at the previous meet at Morch's looked ok what was it?
Terranova Solo, great wee tent, bought it second hand on ebay, that was the first time I'd used it.
I have a snugpac hooped bivi, I used it on the Texa course, but under a tarp, you need to leave both vents unzipped, I zipped the back one up and soaked my down bag because of condensation.
Grooveski
29-10-2008, 11:05
I would guess a fly plus inner tent will be warmer than a single skin, though I doubt it would make much difference. Many lightweight tents have a mesh inner fly - great for midgies but I can't see it adding to insulation.
I lent a dome tent to a pal once and got it back with the inner trashed by mildew. Used it for years afterwards and didn't notice much difference in the winter at all.
Had to borrow my parents tent in the summer sometimes if I was heading for midgie territory but at the time I was usually up the hills above them.
P.S. Cotton Force Tens are where it's at. I still regret selling mine even twenty years later. Hell of a weight though.
korvin karbon
29-10-2008, 13:48
IMHO tents are nothing but glorified Tarps, the thermal retention is not great and the only ace they have over a tarp is a groundsheet. Geeting a decent thermalite and sleeping bag will be a better option.
can you guess i loved my first night under a tarp at all :p
bivi bag when winter climbing or my trusted Phoenix Phreak.
Got a Vaude but i've not tried that in winter yet - may be a bit big as it is a 3 person (or 1 bushcrafter and toys) tent.
There simply is no way to keep a nylon tent from being damp and cold. Nothing beats a canvas tent (especially Egyptian cotton) with either a stove inside or a fire out front.
This is the only pic I could find of our stove, it's a titanium made by "Four Dog". It keeps our large tent very warm even at minus 20 F.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/IMG_4712.jpg
Here are two smaller tents. The one on the left is just a modified tarp, but it reflects the heat of a fire or a hobo stove very well without a tendency to get smokey. The tent on the right is a pyramid with a stove jack. If I could only keep one tent, this would be it.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/IMG_1601.jpg
They weigh roughly double what similar designs in nylon would, but it's worth it to be warm and dry, to be able to cook and dry clothes inside, and to have hot water.
Scots_Charles_River
29-10-2008, 19:53
Nice setup, what breed is your dog ?
Nick
British Red
29-10-2008, 20:02
http://www.whitings-writings.com/images/claridges000.jpg
korvin karbon
29-10-2008, 20:08
Red, you mean you have not been to the Lanesborough Hotel, awwwwww :p
Shambling Shaman
29-10-2008, 20:16
If you put blankets over the top of your sleeping bag you may well prevent the bag lofting and insulating you a it should. Sleeping bags are reliant of lofting well to insulate how they should. Putting anything over them that squashes that loft reduces the bags ability to keep you warm.
If you're sleeping solo then as small a double skin tent as you feel comfortable in is generally best, so you reduce the amount of air you need to warm inside. If you're using a two man tent it's worth bringing all your kit inside to try and reduce the internal volume as much as possible.
Simplest solution is to get a sleeping bag that's warm enough to keep you comfy or buy some good wool thermals :D
Scoops
I was going to say "Holiday Inn" :D
Scoops has it right.
Main thing is to insulated off the floor. As a rule of thumb - If you had 6 blankets you should sleep on 5 cover with one,
British Red
29-10-2008, 20:30
Red, you mean you have not been to the Lanesborough Hotel, awwwwww :p
We prefer the understated flunkies at Claridges. For a simple functional presidential suite for those on a budget though, we occasionally patronise the Melia White House ;)
Nice setup, what breed is your dog ?
Nick
Great Dane, just a pup.
korvin karbon
29-10-2008, 21:55
We prefer the understated flunkies at Claridges. For a simple functional presidential suite for those on a budget though, we occasionally patronise the Melia White House ;)
i suppose if your going to rough it with the under classes you may may as well go the full hog, i though salute your gracious foray into the "commercial" hotel world, i can only bring myself to the levels of Gleneagles
£40 for a breakfast buffet BTW, my work mate only had a boiled egg for 7 days running ( i being greedy git smuggled in a tupperware box)
firecrest
30-10-2008, 20:48
cheers people. Im still not sure which tent to bring, its a plus to have a light weight tent but a minus that I cant put my stuff inside it. I really cant get the nack of this light weight camping!
Gailainne
30-10-2008, 21:17
Get yourself some waterproof bags, exped do some with a stopper, I must admit thats how I sort out my stuff, plus they can be used for food on site to keep the local wildlife away.
w00dsmoke
30-10-2008, 23:02
Those bags won't keep wildlife away from food! I've had mice eat through them in Glen Etive, badgers rip them open on the banks of loch Tay and rats try it in numerous bothies and only a barrell has stopped the onslaught!
a decent mat and bag is defo a good start. I use a Vango dart DS 2 man tent. its only big enough for one plus some kit and has a small porch. I've used it in -8 and real bad gales and providing you peg it out with good sturdy rock pegs you wont have a problem. The main advantage is the fact that its pop up and double skin.Ever tried putting up a tent in a gale...well you can with this and its up in a couple of mins. £50 from outdoor world and Vango stuff is guaranteed for life
The tent is only there to keep wind, rain and snow (in the UK?) from you, the secret is to use warm sleeping bags and ground insulation plus hot food before you call it a night. Go to bed warm, and you should stay warm if you have the right sleep kit and you have fuelled your body
A tent is a fantastic way of keeping wind chill factor from your body
scoops_uk
31-10-2008, 18:30
its a plus to have a light weight tent but a minus that I cant put my stuff inside it.
That's where the money goes on the more expensive tents, being stronger and lighter at a given size.
The tent is only there to keep wind, rain and snow (in the UK?) from you, the secret is to use warm sleeping bags and ground insulation plus hot food before you call it a night. Go to bed warm, and you should stay warm if you have the right sleep kit and you have fuelled your body
That's exactly it, the tent is not meant to be a heated room, you might warm it up a bit above ambient, but it's your sleeping bag that has to do the insulating work.
Scoops
Slept in issue two man tents, 9x9s, 12x12s, issue bivi bag, hooped bivi and my Vango Mk2 CN which I have to agree can wet if you roll around but is great for 1 with all my gear!
I was probably warmest in the back of my command vehicle with the generator and heaters going full blast (on sleeping watch of course!) The hooped bivi and vango were the warmest otherwise!
That's where the money goes on the more expensive tents, being stronger and lighter at a given size.
That's exactly it, the tent is not meant to be a heated room, you might warm it up a bit above ambient, but it's your sleeping bag that has to do the insulating work.
Scoops
mmmmm Maybe its not supposed to be a heated room but thats exactly what it becomes. Thats why the smaller the tent the warmer it is.. obviously because your body heat, heats it up, making it a heated room or am I missing something...someone please tell me I'm wrong lol
scoops_uk
01-11-2008, 20:34
mmmmm Maybe its not supposed to be a heated room but thats exactly what it becomes. Thats why the smaller the tent the warmer it is.. obviously because your body heat, heats it up, making it a heated room or am I missing something...someone please tell me I'm wrong lol
You're right, as I said in post #4 :)
My point stands though, your body heat might raise the temperature a few degrees inside, it is not going to provide enough heat to keep you warm in the tent overnight without additional insulation.
So unless you're in a tipi with a wood burner or similar it's your sleeping bag and ground insulation that are going to be keeping you warm.
Scoops
Scoops, I must admit that Optimus Crux really looks the monkeys nuts, have to get myself one of those. Anychance you can point me in the right direction.
scoops_uk
01-11-2008, 21:38
Scoops, I must admit that Optimus Crux really looks the monkeys nuts, have to get myself one of those. Anychance you can point me in the right direction.
That'll be the Optimus Crux from Tengu's "Best Stove for a BOB" thread? :)
I guess RvOps (http://www.rvops.co.uk/sleeping-cooking-76/cooking-gear-29/optimus-crux-1593.html) is as good a place as anywhere to get one from.
Scoops
That'll be the Optimus Crux from Tengu's "Best Stove for a BOB" thread? :)
I guess RvOps (http://www.rvops.co.uk/sleeping-cooking-76/cooking-gear-29/optimus-crux-1593.html) is as good a place as anywhere to get one from.
Scoops
Cheers mate, i'll have a look
Regards
Gray
Scots_Charles_River
03-11-2008, 19:31
Great Dane, just a pup.
Never realised what those pups looked like.
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
03-11-2008, 19:34
Optimus Crux
I got a similar coleman burner and a HIgear pan tried to get it all inside the pan but not quite. Looks like the crux does pack it all in.
Nick
Best tent for winter, has to be a cotton one, quieter, and no condensation :)
helixpteron
18-11-2008, 18:28
This company make very good, lightweight winter tents and sleeping bag systems.
Their website has lots of interesting information regarding waterproofing, air flow, moisture vapour barriers and condensation, all factors affecting tents in winter.
http://www.warmlite.com/tents_In.htm
ESLRaven
18-11-2008, 18:30
I've spent nights at minus temperatures in both bivvy (hooped) and small tent (Terra Nova Voyager) and personally I've found the tent to be warmer.
Although the tent has a larger space to heat the addition of a flysheet creates an area of still air in between inner and fly. As the air is a poor conductor of heat this acts as a kind of blanket over you, whereas with the bivvy any wind quicky convects heat away.
On a really cold day the temperature is noticably different between inner and porch and then again the outside when getting up after spending a night in the tent.
Having said all that I'm with Scoops' previous comments about insulation - I think this actually makes a greater difference than the tent or bivvy - although nothing beats a stove in a tipi to warm your cockles (until the fire goes out . . .)
Don't worry too much about condensation, if it gets reasonably cold that will freeze anyway . . . actually not sure that's a good thing :D
I use a Hilleberg akto in winter and a tarp in summer - unless I am on a campsite, when i tend to use the akto to avoid strange looks and visitors peering in while I'm changing my undies!
The akto is great - compact and warm, yet big enough for you kit as well. The downside of this warmth, however, is condensation. Not a problem if you're staying put as it tends to dry out during the day, even in wet weather. But it can be a problem if you are moving on straight after you get up. I tend to separate the fly from the inner and dry the fly at every opportunity during the day.
I've tried the hooped single skin tents, and condensation was a MAJOR problem - and that was only in the autumn. I was looking at this bivvy bag on Backpacking Light, which looks interesting: http://backpackinglight.co.uk/product58.asp
Just spent four days with lots of rain and a little snow deer hunting out of this tent. I'd come in at the end of the day soaking wet, stoke up the fire, hang my clothes above it, and wash up right inside with hot water from the stove's water jacket, letting the water soak into the ground. I'd wake up once or twice during the night when it got a little chilly, and throw on more wood. By morning my clothes would be dry and there'd be more hot water for breakfast. I'd bank the fire and close the damper, and the stove would hold a fire all day.
This stove is made of steel, so I only use it when canoe or car camping. It's nice because it's large and has a water jacket on the side. When weight is an issue, I use a smaller one made of titanium.
The fellows who had nylon tents kept coming over to mine to dry off, warm up, and mooch some hot water.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/IMG_1706.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c116/Oblio13/IMG_1713.jpg
I was looking at this bivvy bag on Backpacking Light, which looks interesting: http://backpackinglight.co.uk/product58.asp
I have one of the older models of these and it is my bag of choice whenever I go out without a tent. The only downside is the colour (mine is bright purple!) But since it doesn't tend to come out of the bag until it's dark then I suppose this isn't much of an issue.