View Full Version : Activities Scouts are not allowed to do
What activities do you think or know about that Scouts in Scout association (britian) are not allowed to do.
Ie which of the following is not allowed:
using a fixed blade knife or paintballing or knife throwing.
Graham_S
28-10-2008, 01:26
As far as I know,
fixed blades are fine, (parental permission may be required depending on your DC)
I believe paintballing is out,
Knife throwing may be ok (but again check with your DC)
johannesburg
28-10-2008, 01:58
Are scouts still not allowed to use lasar quest (something along the lines of not shooting at each other - even if imaginary?) that destroyed our fun! We had virtually just bought all the gear aswell!
Are scouts still not allowed to use lasar quest (something along the lines of not shooting at each other - even if imaginary?) that destroyed our fun! We had virtually just bought all the gear aswell!
Yes laser quest is OK
We were always told fixed blades were not allowed. It was rubbish.
We were always told fixed blades were not allowed. It was rubbish.
You are no longer allowed to wear a sheath knife as part of uniform but of course you can carry it where appropriate and use it likewise.
You are no longer allowed to wear a sheath knife as part of uniform but of course you can carry it where appropriate and use it likewise.
Talking to the warden at our local campsite a while ago about this. When I was a Scout, you could wear your knive around camp, but not anymore. She blames the Leaders for turning up with great big knives straped to the legs, as it does not look good. When I showed her my Stu Mitchell, she said I could wear it if needed.
So come on Leaders, ditch the Rambo knives and machetes - and get something more discrete and useful. That way we set an example to the young people in our charge.
Simon
Our scout troop has been laser questing. We had an activity evening of saw and axe use, flagged it in advance for parents etc.
Folding knives were allowed at the last camp, I found it was other leaders that pulled faces if a fixed blade was used, even if involved in something like gutting fish.
crazydave
28-10-2008, 09:51
its not the leaders that have changed regards length or use of blades but the attitude of the thicko pc brigade of which the scout association seems to enjoy employing after they have been rejected for being too silly for government service.
a sheath knife should be around 6 inches to be of any use otherwise you have to lug around axes and saws. as to machetes a lot of leaders I know used to take them on site to clear the place up a bit which was doing the wardens a favour. if the kids aren't learning that a knife is a tool then they will only see it as a weapon. I made a point of cooking with my blades as well as prying and splitting pallets or making tent pegs.
I fear that the craze for bushcraft blades hasn't helped as it means the axes have come out of the stores which are far more dangerous. I used to keep a stock of birch logs in the store so if we had a quiet night or something fell through we would make tent pegs which they were taught to do with a blade and a mallet. I cant remember any accidents of merit.
on the plus side now we have to teach sex ed then every leader can now be had under the yellow card for 'grooming' the entire troop :)
they should bring back the common sense badge and let the leaders get on with it instead of thinking stuff up just to keep themselves busy and justify their jobs. it was and is broken but not in the ways they keep trying to fix. banning sak's from camps/jamborees incase little jonny might stab little peter when to my knowledge nothing like that has ever happened except in the ubiquitous urban myth. I've got fed up asking whose got a knife to the shake of heads or telling a kid to just cut that off when he cant do it.
as to what activities scouts arent allowed to do - given half the chance all of them I reckon, we even need a risk assessment to use the damn hut.
What activities do you think or know about that Scouts in Scout association (britian) are not allowed to do.
I know they are not allowed to practice archery at pictures of animals :rolleyes:
(Note: I'm not a scout leader but I am currently going through CRB checking to help out at my local pack)
Wallenstein
28-10-2008, 10:30
So come on Leaders, ditch the Rambo knives and machetes - and get something more discrete and useful. That way we set an example to the young people in our charge.
Simon
This was part of the reason I opted for a blaze orange Clipper...
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5497/imagexb8.jpg
Basically to show it's a boring tool, not something to use covertly to kill Russians. :rolleyes:
No danger of our cubs/scouts thinking it'd be "cool" to carry that around the streets!
Cubs and Scouts are allowed to shoot air-rifles (with parental permission), but you are not allowed to use a target with a picture of a living being.
A picture of a tree or apple is fine, a bee or a deer is not. You're not even allowed to use imaginary animals - dragons, for example - as they still count as "living".
phaserrifle
28-10-2008, 10:35
laser tag is fine.
paintball is out, partly because if a leader who is taking part shoots a child, it could get them in trouble with parents (and potentialy the law) when said child goes complaing "steve the leader shot me mum, it hurt"
archery and air rifle shooting at animal shaped targets is out.
fixed blades are not banned, but some leaders can get very annoyed if an explorer carries one (but has no problem calling the same explorer "a young leader", go figure :()
Don't know the rules on knife throwing, but it sounds like fun!
This all sounds very complicated to me but I haven't been a scout for about 25 years.
I can understand that to only allow folding blades is a convenient way to stop the knifecraze but isn't learning to use knife, axe, saw and rope the bread and butter of scouting any more?
What is the "mission statement" for the scout movement today?
"Whats the difference between the scouts and the brittish army?"
"Scouts don't have heavy artillery!"
:lmao:
Wallenstein
28-10-2008, 12:23
You can still use sharps - they just prefer you not to wander around with them the whole time; in the scout hut or within your own camp boundary you can whittle till the cows come home.
Chapter nine of POR is all about activities.
http://www.scouts.org.uk/documents/por/Chap%2009%20Sept08.pdf
I have seen a listing on scoutbase for activities if i find it i will post it
This was part of the reason I opted for a blaze orange Clipper...
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/5497/imagexb8.jpg
Basically to show it's a boring tool, not something to use covertly to kill Russians. :rolleyes:
No danger of our cubs/scouts thinking it'd be "cool" to carry that around the streets!
Cubs and Scouts are allowed to shoot air-rifles (with parental permission), but you are not allowed to use a target with a picture of a living being.
A picture of a tree or apple is fine, a bee or a deer is not. You're not even allowed to use imaginary animals - dragons, for example - as they still count as "living".
Wow, that knife sheath is awesome, where did you buy the knife?
Another thing we weren't allowed to do is tie the hangmans noose, got in a lot of trouble over that.
Also, igniting gunpowder inside of tents.
Rothley Bill
28-10-2008, 13:53
I ubderstood it was paintballing as others have said here.
Ther last time I did some training our district advice on knives was this 'knives to be kept in a locked, preferably steel box and only one knife is allowed out of the box at a time'.
And no knives not even SAKs on site or any activity, which is very limiting, and largely ignored.
Wallenstein
28-10-2008, 15:05
Wow, that knife sheath is awesome, where did you buy the knife?
It's Frosts Clipper #860f - very hard to lose (especially in the snow), which is ideal for me (and for lending to scouts)!
Stainless steel blade which some people don't like, but is low maintenance and will still take a great edge.
It's Frosts Clipper #860f - very hard to lose (especially in the snow), which is ideal for me (and for lending to scouts)!
Stainless steel blade which some people don't like, but is low maintenance and will still take a great edge.
Yeah, but where did you buy it? I've never seen one in that colour and I wondered who sold it.
Yeah, but where did you buy it? I've never seen one in that colour and I wondered who sold it.
Lots of people sell them, Amazon and Attlebrough (http://www.attacc.com/acatalog/FROSTS_OF_MORA.html) to name but two
here is the list that i mentioned in my previous post
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/facts/pdfs/fs120084.pdf
as far as the use of knives on camp we keep all the knives and issue them for use under supervision. This means that the scouts learn the skills needed with knives but it is controlled by a leader.
Andy
Scots_Charles_River
28-10-2008, 18:50
Is there still the badge for good safe axe and knife useage ? Backwoodsman badge I think.
I was a cub, scout, sea scout, venture sea scout, Scout Ldr, Venture Scout Ldr.
Only now I wish had thanked my leaders more for the time they put into leading the troop. Thanks to all Ldrs who give up their time, for nothing, to young people.
Nick
Scots_Charles_River
28-10-2008, 19:07
Just dug out my uniforms. Still got the Land Ldrs and the Venture Sea Scout tops. Can't find the itchy wooly sea scout jersey.
Any good websites to research camps I was on ? eg vcp wurttemberg bundeslager 1990
Nick
Is there still the badge for good safe axe and knife useage ? Backwoodsman badge I think.
yeah nick i now the badge u mean, think there was also a certificate for it as well, not 100% tho, and that badge is gone and replaced with the likes of roller skating and meteorlisgit
Scots_Charles_River
28-10-2008, 20:11
We also did a badge, as a leader setting it up, think it was a survival type badge. We dropped off some PLs on a small uninhabitated island off Achnacloich, Loch Etive. They had a sheath knife and all clothing. They had to survive for two nights !
Nick
Don't know the rules on knife throwing, but it sounds like fun!
Look HERE (http://www.britishblades.com/forums/showthread.php?t=66478)to see a thread about knife throwing.
Scots_Charles_River
28-10-2008, 21:37
I would like to see the Risk Assessment for knife throwing.
Nick
crazydave
29-10-2008, 00:29
no worse than darts or frisbee I reckon :)
This all sounds very complicated to me but I haven't been a scout for about 25 years.
I can understand that to only allow folding blades is a convenient way to stop the knifecraze but isn't learning to use knife, axe, saw and rope the bread and butter of scouting any more?
What is the "mission statement" for the scout movement today?
"Whats the difference between the scouts and the brittish army?"
"Scouts don't have heavy artillery!"
:lmao:
Sorry but as a scout leader and an ex soldier,I have to say that our scouts are not trained in camouflage and concealment, escape and evasion, pyros, explosives/domolitions and we certainly dont encourage them to kill anyone
I ubderstood it was paintballing as others have said here.
Ther last time I did some training our district advice on knives was this 'knives to be kept in a locked, preferably steel box and only one knife is allowed out of the box at a time'.
And no knives not even SAKs on site or any activity, which is very limiting, and largely ignored.
But the Felling axe will be OK though:rolleyes:
I had our local campsite warden come up to me and say I could not carry my knife (he was joking though) so asked about the felling a few feet away then he laughed and pointed the other people on site were all coppers.
The archery rules are a bit of a challenge, especially when it comes to putting on some field archery.
The scouts used to make a lot of money from the National Field Archery Society, who used to use Scout land for some of their championships. Alas, now we just have to find other places to host them.
I really do think that the rules should be reviewed as they are really target archery biased. My understanding of the rule relating to field archery is that events will have to come under the insurance of the provider, with whatever restrictions have been placed on the activity with reference to coaching and supervision. In my opinion the archery leader qualification does not cover all of the potential aspects of archery in the woods and I would be looking for a field archery specific qualification. This will hopefully add more intracacy in the shooting done as the coach should have good knowledge of course laying as well.
You have to look at the areas of field archery that do not include animal targets (not just faces as 3Ds and 2Ds can not be used either).
Scots_Charles_River
29-10-2008, 18:31
Beecraigs Country Park near me, has a fenced off section, to do field archery and it has high 6ft plus fences, presumably to reduce the risk of poeple walking thru the woods ?
You have to look at the areas of field archery that do not include animal targets (not just faces as 3Ds and 2Ds can not be used either).
Which is basically the GNAS interpretation of field archery :rolleyes:
crazydave
15-11-2008, 00:12
We also did a badge, as a leader setting it up, think it was a survival type badge. We dropped off some PLs on a small uninhabitated island off Achnacloich, Loch Etive. They had a sheath knife and all clothing. They had to survive for two nights !
Nick
cor thats like being a youth in sparta - wouldn't be allowed now unless you have a full campsite next to them, satellite phone, 5 leaders, rescue boat and paramedic ready. form m, form w, form c, first aid cert and a note from your mum :)
crazydave
15-11-2008, 00:15
Sorry but as a scout leader and an ex soldier,I have to say that our scouts are not trained in camouflage and concealment, escape and evasion, pyros, explosives/domolitions and we certainly dont encourage them to kill anyone
do your lot not read the anarchists cookbook then? I used to spend hours fending that off once the kids discovered the internet 10 years ago or so. :) I understand youtube now has videos too
my gsl loved the suggestion of the insurgency award when I brought it up :eek:
Spunyarn
15-11-2008, 04:28
Have a word with your local army barracks. Most (or atleast some), of the PTIs their will be qualified enough to take the little darlings and through them over any army obstacle course (Civilian Users or Army Obstacle Course). Fun for all, and good for future recruiting. :)
was told by my Dad today (hes been a leader for a very long time)
its in the constituion or rules etc Scouts are not allowed to us e a knife with a blade over 3" :eek: lucky they make sliced bread if thats true and guess thats clippers out then
I assume leader have to conform the the same rules and best BG doens use his own knife when in new Cheif scout uniform :lmao:
ATB
Duncan
Dave Budd
02-06-2009, 17:35
There are lots of myths about what scouts can and can't use/carry in the way of knives. So much so I was asked to write an article for it in the Scout magazine a while ago!
The official word is quite grey, but basically scouts are no longer allowed to carry a knife (doesn't say whether it is fixed, folding or lock) to a normal meeting or on camp unless the leaders have given them prior permissioon to do so on account of them needing to use it for specific tasks (such as food prep or shelter building, etc)
It used to be part of the rules that a knife was worn on teh belt as part of the uniform. Now it is that a knife should not be carried unless it is needed and permission has been given. But it is still a part of teh scouting life. They still have plenty of badges ot work for that require the use of a knife, axe, saw, etc
Whether individual groups allow the scouts to own or use particular types of knife is down to those leaders. Some may be happy with the kids carrying a street legal pocket knife to meetings (as long as they are not flashing it around then I would because they are not breaking the law and the Offcicial Regs just say "knife", which I take to mean a fixed blade as that does have a legal implication for carrying it)
My scout group have just finished making their very own knives and while I'm not letting them bring them along to meetings, I will find plenty of good reasons for them to use them. that way they become mundain objects not something excitnig to flash about.
was told by my Dad today (hes been a leader for a very long time)
its in the constituion or rules etc Scouts are not allowed to us e a knife with a blade over 3"
As Dave says no such rule just a myth.
i was hoping so but hes been in scouting since the 70's and runs many courses (he was my scout leader :eek: ) and was adamant it was in the regs i will ask him where :D its a shame PC grips so many aspects of life.
ATB
Duncan
PS ive looked online etc and i cant find any ref to it
http://www.scouts.org.uk/support_resource_view.php?supp ort_resource_id=1515
tho they do gloss the law a little in the PC favour
http://www.scouts.org.uk/support_resource_view.php?supp ort_resource_id=71
Dave Budd
03-06-2009, 10:23
When I wrote the article I phoned head office and asked them for the official line. I called them three seperate times to see if I got different answers. They all pointed me to the same rule book.
So I would say that your dad has just been miss-led like so many others. Sorry. On the bright side, he can now let the scouts loose with knives again :D
Here is what The Drewsteignton and Chagford scouts will be using on their next camp :)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i98/buddknives1/scoutknives0003web.jpg
they started off with this kit and did everything themselves using hand tools ;)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i98/buddknives1/scoutknives0008web.jpg
my guys being explorers all have a Mora Frost, they bring it along to unit nights that i designate, but like Dave budd says, i give them plenty of opportunities!!
you would hope so but i doubt it the rules do say only uses a bigger knife and not a folder if you doing bigger tasks like splitting wood :rolleyes:
The vast majority of Scout use will only require the use of a pen or clasp knife, the cutting of string, cooking or whittling. Where you have a larger task, such as splitting wood, a larger knife such as a sheath knife may be appropriate.
and when i showed him my orange Clipper and said this is the one Blue peter used and it would make a good scout knife he replyed those ar the ones you kill people with :eek: meaning sheath knives in general . bearing in mined when i was a scout he used to wear a 8" razor sharp bowie knife ofton forgetting it was on when at camp and go shopping etc :lmao:
those are knive kits and ideal for scouts they might be in danger of learning something tho :rolleyes:
ATB
Duncan
phaserrifle
03-06-2009, 17:09
Sorry but as a scout leader and an ex soldier,I have to say that our scouts are not trained in camouflage and concealment, escape and evasion, pyros, explosives/domolitions and we certainly dont encourage them to kill anyone
I believe that the kids who want to do that sort of stuff join army cadets....
according to a mate who was one (although I will say he does over exadurate on occasion):
camoflage and concealment.....yes
escape and evasion......to a degree
pyros.......yes (I'm assuming that thunderflashes count)
explosives/demolitions.......alegedly (he claims he got taught how to make napalm, although he now denies saying this :rolleyes: )
so we're just down to not encouraging to them kill each other.
you would hope so but i doubt it the rules do say only uses a bigger knife and not a folder if you doing bigger tasks like splitting wood :rolleyes:
Duncan
This guidance not a rule.
The only rule regaurding knives in the UK Scout association is that a knife may not be worn as part of the uniform. A knife was originally part of the uniform.
Rule 10.2 B says
b. Knives may not be worn with uniform except for religious reasons.
The rule book POR (http://www.scouts.org.uk/support_resource_view.php?supp ort_resource_id=71)
Feel free to point the rule you quote.
your quite right those are the 2 links i posted earlier should have repeaded it in that post to
and yes thats guidance not policey
however like HSE guidance does become a Benck mark which you best have a very air tight reason to go against the 25kg max lift recommendation for example you find any company that dosnt state it as Max rule
after further discussion and showing him this thread hes going to try and find it it may have been a District ruling or fo rspecific camps etc
ATB
Duncan
after further discussion and showing him this thread hes going to try and find it it may have been a District ruling or fo rspecific camps etc
This is a common problem LOCAL RULES and if thats what it is I would deliberately go against it and take it further if I felt inclined:BlueTeamE
Back to the original topic there are only 3 explicitly banned activities...
Paintball
Bungee Jumping
Towing of inflatables behind powerboats (eg banana boating)
all other activities are permitted but possible with various rules attached.
eg shooting needs a signed parental consent form and the targets cant represent humans or animals. (live quarry also forbidden)
(note scouts can shoot any type of gun depending on having a suitable range and qualified instructor.... Nowhere in POR does it limit you to only air rifles.. Ive heard of explorers shooting full bore rifles at the local TA range)
tomongoose
27-10-2010, 16:42
I run a Paintball, Laser, Airsoft and field archery site and the scouts locally are not allowed to do any of the activities including the laser as there guidelines do not allow them to shoot a living target or representation of a living target but the local schools come out for paintball all the time with no bother.
cbkernow
28-10-2010, 17:39
Rule 9.39 Paintball Games
a. Members may not take part in the activity
known as 'paintball' (or any similar activity).
b. Paintball games may not take place on
property owned or leased by, or used in the
name of, the Scout Movement.
Rule 9.40 Laser Games
a. Laser Games remain an optional Scouting
activity without age limit but with the
knowledge of parents.
b. Parental permission is required for laser clay
pigeon shooting.
Not sure why laser clay pigeon shooting needs specific permission, maybe because it tends to use lifelike weapons rather than the kind we tend to use for laser tag (though they seem to be getting more realistic now, saw an AK 47 laser gun once!!)
I presume it means we can't shoot "projectiles" at human/animal targets which rules out paintball and airsoft, but altering field archery to use bulls eye targets should be fine.
I presume it means we can't shoot "projectiles" at human/animal targets which rules out paintball and airsoft, but altering field archery to use bulls eye targets should be fine.
YES ..... there is no problem with field archery in scouts as long as it is run within their rules and to GNAS standards (whatever the latter are but that is a whole different topic)
There was a field round in the 1st National Scout Archery Comp at Gilwell, dont know if there still is. Just use FITA field targets (ie yellow and black roundels) instead of Hunter etc paper or 3D targets. Safe and appropriate course setting is more challenging than what colour the piece of paper is! Sorry but I don't understand why some people seem have such a problem simply working within the rules and devising something challenging / enjoyable for the kids.
Peter
(who happens to be, but is not speaking as, Scout District Commissioner and a GNAS Coach)
I run a Paintball, Laser, Airsoft and field archery site and the scouts locally are not allowed to do any of the activities including the laser as there guidelines do not allow them to shoot a living target or representation of a living target but the local schools come out for paintball all the time with no bother.
An operator near to me asked me to distribute - and therefore tacitly approve - an offering. I replied that I could not as
a. I had never visited and
b. the flier said airsoft and paintball which was not acceptable. :nono:
Reply was still no invitation to visit (I drive past quite often) and "Oh I did not mean that was included, we would take it out for scout groups". OK but you need to not put it in the flier and make it clear what they DO get.
Never heard anything else so I assume he was not really going to alter his business offering at all. :sadwavey:
It probably could have worked but hey there are plenty of other site operators who will want the business when the stag parties and testostoren run out .......
Melonfish
29-10-2010, 11:50
I wonder if this is why the scouts and whatnot are always crying out for volunteers to lead packs? because the hell & safety wooly mitten bunch have had their way with baden powell's ethos and "it just ain't what it used to be" ?
I heard the scouts weren't allowed to indulge in goat tinkering.
the hell & safety wooly mitten bunch have had their way with baden powell's ethos and "it just ain't what it used to be" ?
This may be a perception but its not reality.
I heard the scouts weren't allowed to indulge in goat tinkering.
Not sure what that entails so I cant answer
http://www.scouts.org.uk/news/225/scouting-refutes-knife-ban-claims
I became a Scout in 1967 and wore a sheath knife to meetings. This entailed walking or cycling thro urban streets. Later in life, as a Troop Leader, Venture Leader, GSL and ADC(LT) over the years, I never saw any reason why it was necessary to carry a sheath knife at camp and found it far easier to carry and use a folder. If nothing else, it set a powerful example to the yp/children/Scouts as we had a mutally agreed "local (District) rule" against sheath knives being used by them, under any circumstances. Folders were, of course, allowed under appropriate circumstances.
There were very good reasons for that, given the area we operated in, one with very significant social issues and where "knife culture" was a significant social problem.
Although no longer in the Movement, I still don't use a sheath knife in my outdoor activities. That said, that's my personal choice and while I recognise the value and practicality of such a tool I've yet to find anything my folder can't do that my sheath knife can do better.
Much will come down to the quality of training in safe knife usage and sadly there are still too many Scouters who want to carry machetes or "rambo knives" on their belts. That this may serve some purpose for them, either practically or to fulfill some personal ego need is a little difficult when they are also serving as role models for Scouts, many of whom will possibly seek to emulate people they admire and respect.
All that said, if yp are taught the safe use of a knife in Scouts, that knowledge will quite probably stay with them for the rest of their lives and I'm delighted to see the Movement taking a sensible and realistic line. Scouting without being able to use a knife is not Scouting.
Mike.
The Lord Poncho
12-01-2011, 12:21
Sorry but as a scout leader and an ex soldier,I have to say that our scouts are not trained in camouflage and concealment, escape and evasion, pyros, explosives/domolitions and we certainly don’t encourage them to kill anyone
Ok, I’m quoting an old post, but as a Scout Leader I can say our Explorers are trained in Camouflage and Concealment, Escape and Evasion, Tactical Movement, Tactical route planning, voice procedure and use of radios etc, and more besides! These skills are not the preserve of the forces, but can be used to add excitement and flavour to training which develops attributes and skills in young people whilst certainly not encouraging them to kill one another.
Each year we run an Escape and Evasion weekend for the Explorer Scouts in the district. Without exception, it's the most popular event we run in the annual programme, and involves navigating across large tracts of forest to checkpoints, undertaking challenges at those checkpoints in return for points, and trying to escape a marauding bunch of leaders and the attentions of their fearsome flour bombs. The exercise commences with themed training on the Friday night, sometimes involving a casualty evacuation exercise/stretcher run, and starts for real early Saturday morning when the teams are set off. They are then on their own until early afternoon Sunday completing the course and bivying out all night.
Some could say that this is military training, and certainly there seems to be a fair representation of DPM at the events. But i would argue that the aims of this training is very different to that provided by the military- our aims are to use it as a tool to build up fantastic skills in the participants- all the usual team work, self reliance, problem solving, leadership etc etc.
Certainly more fun and worthwhile than anything I ever did in Cadets!
santaman2000
11-02-2011, 19:59
Back to the original topic there are only 3 explicitly banned activities...
Paintball
Bungee Jumping
Towing of inflatables behind powerboats (eg banana boating)
all other activities are permitted but possible with various rules attached.
eg shooting needs a signed parental consent form and the targets cant represent humans or animals. (live quarry also forbidden)
(note scouts can shoot any type of gun depending on having a suitable range and qualified instructor.... Nowhere in POR does it limit you to only air rifles.. Ive heard of explorers shooting full bore rifles at the local TA range)
Quick question: If they cain't shoot live quarry, how do they earn their hunting merit badge?
santaman2000
11-02-2011, 20:21
Let's see if I understand this. Although the exact rule are a bit fuzzy, the usual practice is for the Scouts to only have a knife for a specific task under supervision then turn it back in? That sounds exactly the way we treated the convicts working in the prison kitchen while I was a correctional officer.
Ie which of the following is not allowed:
using a fixed blade knife or paintballing or knife throwing.
i would think that the knife throwing would be a no no... as a former scout and leader; a knife is a tool and should never be abused in this way.
a knife belongs in either 2 places: in the hand(while being used), or in its' sheath. anything else leads way to either loss or injury.
i fixed blade knife is one of the best tools for bushcraft(no bowie knives please), and i believe it is safer than an axe(easier to control). when i was a leader, the fixed blade was only allowed after training, and demonstration of the scout in its' safe and proper use.
when parents asked me what kind of knife, i recommended a frost mora. blaze orange is best, to prevent loss in the bush.
one of my favorite knife videos for scouts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnvusOGZ91Y&playnext=1&list=PL5FDE34DA0DAAF0DE
I heard the scouts weren't allowed to indulge in goat tinkering.
or cow tipping... ;)
dorkingbushcraft
11-02-2011, 23:35
Duncan
This guidance not a rule.
The only rule regaurding knives in the UK Scout association is that a knife may not be worn as part of the uniform. A knife was originally part of the uniform.
Rule 10.2 B says
b. Knives may not be worn with uniform except for religious reasons.
The rule book POR (http://www.scouts.org.uk/support_resource_view.php?supp ort_resource_id=71)
Feel free to point the rule you quote.
but can a knife be worn on the belt during flag break etc. if the scout is allowed to bring it along to meetings to use during the meeting,but has nothing to do with uniform?
FreddyFish
11-02-2011, 23:41
Quick question: If they cain't shoot live quarry, how do they earn their hunting merit badge?
UK Scouts don't hunt.
While i was in the air scouts we were allways being told off for drinking , swearing and chasing girls .
Well we were only following their example , they were a lot worse than us and still are .
Craig.................
Quick question: If they cain't shoot live quarry, how do they earn their hunting merit badge?
UK scouting doesn't have a proficiency award for hunting ~ what do scouts in America need to do for theirs?
santaman2000
12-02-2011, 20:35
I've just checked and it appears hunting as such has been incorporated into the Rifle Shooting and Shotgun Shooting merit badges. The BSA rifle Shooting philosophy and merit badge requirements are:
“ Unless a rifle is handled incorrectly or recklessly, it is not dangerous. A rifle, like any other precision instrument, is manufactured to perform a specific task and can do so at no risk to the user or others. By earning this badge, Scouts can develop their shooting skills while learning safe practices. ”
The Rifle Shooting merit badge was one of the Original 57 Merit Badges issued by the Boy Scouts of America in 1911.
Rifle Shooting requirements
1. Do the following:
a. Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms.
b. Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s).
c. Explain the need for, and use and types of, eye and hearing protection.
d. Give the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state.
e. Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources.
f. Obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state. Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns or ammunition.
g. Identify and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities.
h. Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting.
i. Give to your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use.
2. Do ONE of the following options:
OPTION A--RIFLE SHOOTING (MODERN CARTRIDGE TYPE)
a. Identify the three main parts of a rifle, and tell how they function.
b. Identify and demonstrate the three fundamental rules for safe gun handling.
c. Identify the two types of cartridges, their parts, and how they function.
d. Explain to your counselor what a misfire, hangfire, and squib fire are, and explain the procedures to follow in response to each.
e. Identify and demonstrate the five fundamentals of shooting a rifle safely.
f. Identify and explain each rule for safe shooting.
g. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a rifle from the bench rest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.
h. Identify the basic safety rules for cleaning a rifle, and identify the materials needed
i. Demonstrate how to clean a rifle properly and safely.
j. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a rifle
k. Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter. Using these targets, explain how to adjust sights to zero.
l. Adjust sights to center the group on the target* and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) A-32 targets - 9; (2) A-17 or TQ-1 targets - 7; (3) A-36 targets - 5.
OPTION B --- AIR RIFLE SHOOTING (BB OR PELLET)
a. Identify the three main parts of an air rifle, and tell how they function.
b. Identify and demonstrate the three fundamental rules for handling a rifle safely.
c. Identify the two most common types of air rifle ammunition.
d. Identify and demonstrate the five fundamentals of shooting a rifle.
e. Identify and explain each rule for shooting an air rifle safely.
f. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills and attitude necessary to safely shoot a target from the bench rest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.
g. Identify the basic safety rules for cleaning an air rifle, and identify the materials needed.
h. Demonstrate how to clean an air rifle safely.
i. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting an air rifle.
j. Using a BB gun or pellet air rifle and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position at 15 feet for BB guns or 33 feet for air rifles, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.
k. Adjust sights to center the group on the target and fire five groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) BB rifle at 15 feet or 5 meters using TQ - 5 targets - 8; (2) Pellet air rifle at 25 feet using TQ - 5 target - 8, at 33 feet or 10 meters using AR-1 targets - 6.
OPTION C --- MUZZLE - LOADING RIFLE SHOOTING
a. Discuss a brief history of the development of muzzle-loading rifles.
b. Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock rifles and discuss how they function.
c. Demonstrate and discuss the safe handling rules of muzzle-loading rifles.
d. Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
e. Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
f. Discuss proper components of a load.
g. Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading rifle.
h. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading rifle on a range, including range procedures.
i. Shoot a target with a muzzle-loading rifle using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.
j. Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle- loading rifle safely. Using these materials, demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading rifle safely.
k. Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading rifle's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
l. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzle-loading rifle.
m. Using a muzzle-loading rifle of any caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft soft drink can.
n. Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score: (1) at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets - 7; (2) at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100 yard targets - 7.
* Note: It is not always practical to adjust the sights (i.e. when using a borrowed fixed-sight rifle). For requirement 2l, you may demonstrate your ability to use the shooting fundamentals by shooting five shot groups (five shots per group) in which all shots can be covered by or touch a quarter and then explain how to adjust the sights to zero the rifle.
Requirements 1e,1f, 2j (in option A), 2i (in option B) and 2l (in option C) would be the links to hunting proficiency. I'll do another post with the Shotgun Requirements.
santaman2000
12-02-2011, 21:11
The BSA philosophy and requirements for the Shotgun Shooting merit badge are:
“ A shotgun is a precision instrument, designed to shoot a shot charge in a specific pattern to cover a designated area at a certain distance. Unlike a rifle, the bore of the shotgun is not rifled, so the shot emerging from the muzzle is not spinning. ”
Shotgun Shooting requirements
1. Do the following:
a. Explain why BB and pellet air guns must always be treated with the same respect as firearms.
b. Describe how you would react if a friend visiting your home asked to see your or your family's firearm(s).
c. Explain the need for and use and types of eye and hearing protection.
d. Explain the main points of the laws for owning and using guns in your community and state.
e. Explain how hunting is related to the wise use of renewable wildlife resources.
f. Successfully complete a state hunter education course, or obtain a copy of the hunting laws for your state, then do the following.
1. Explain the main points of hunting laws in your state and give any special laws on the use of guns and ammunition, and
2. List the kinds of wildlife that can be legally hunted in your state.
g. Explain to your counselor the proper hygienic guidelines used in shooting.
h. Identify and explain three shotgun sports. Identify places in your community where you could shoot these sports and explain how you can join or be a part of shooting sports activities.
i. Give your counselor a list of sources that you could contact for information on firearms and their use.
2. Do ONE of the following options:
OPTION A: SHOTGUN SHOOTING (MODERN SHOTSHELL TYPE)
a. Identify the principal parts of a shotgun, action types, and how they function.
b. Identify and demonstrate the rules for safely handling a shotgun.
c. Identify the parts of a shotgun shell and their functions.
d. Identify the various gauges of shotguns. Explain which one you would pick for use and why.
e. Identify and explain the fundamentals of safely shooting a shotgun.
f. Identify and explain each rule for safely shooting a shotgun.
g. Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot moving targets, using the fundamentals of shotgun shooting.
h. Identify the materials needed to clean a shotgun.
i. Demonstrate how to clean a shotgun safely.
j. Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a shotgun.
k. Shooting score required: Hit at least 12 (48 percent) out of 25 targets in two 25-target groups. The two groups need not be shot in consecutive order.
Shooting skill rules:
* Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: If using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.
* All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.
* Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.
* Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.
* Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 12 gauge may be used.
* Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.
* Any ammunition, either factory or hand loaded, may be used.
* Shooters must shoot in rounds of 25. Rounds need not be shot continuously or on the same day (the term "round" refers to a single series of 25 shots).
* If using a trap field, shoot station 3 with traps set to throw straightaway targets.
* If using a skeet field, shoot station 7 low house.
OPTION B: MUZZLE-LOADING SHOTGUN SHOOTING
a. Discuss a brief history of the development of the muzzle-loading shotgun.
b. Identify principal parts of percussion and flintlock shotguns and discuss how they function.
c. Demonstrate and discuss safe handling rules of a muzzle-loading shotgun.
d. Identify the various grades of black powder and their proper use.
e. Discuss proper safety procedures pertaining to black powder use and storage.
f. Discuss proper components of a load.
g. Identify proper procedures and accessories used for loading a muzzle-loading shotgun.
h. Demonstrate knowledge, skill, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a muzzle-loading shotgun on a range, including range procedures.
i. Shoot a moving target with a muzzle-loading shotgun using the five fundamentals of firing the shot.
j. Identify the materials needed to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun properly and safely.
k. Demonstrate how to clean a muzzle-loading shotgun safely.
l. Identify the causes of a muzzle-loading shotgun's failing to fire and explain or demonstrate proper correction procedures.
m. Discuss what points you would consider if selecting a muzzle-loading shotgun.
n. Shooting score required: "Hit at least five out of 15 targets. The two groups need not be shot in consecutive order.
Shooting skill rules:
* Targets may be thrown by a hand trap, manual mechanical, or on any trap or skeet field. Note: If using a hand trap or manual mechanical trap, the trap operator should be at least five feet to the right and three feet to the rear of the shooter. If throwing left-handed with a hand trap this should be reversed.
* All targets should be thrown at a reasonable speed and in the same direction.
* Targets should be generally thrown so as to climb in the air after leaving the trap.
* Scores may be fired at any time, either in formal competition or in practice.
* Any gauge shotgun not exceeding 10 gauge may be used.
* Standard clay targets customarily used for trap and skeet are to be used.
* On a standard trap field, the shooter should be positioned 8 yards behind the trap house. The trap should be set to throw only straightaway targets
* If using a skeet field, shoot station 7 low house.
The hunting prificiency would be demonstrated in requirements: 1e, 1f1, 1f2; then under Option A: 2d, 2j; then under Option B: 2m.
santaman2000
12-02-2011, 21:25
The BSA has 4 different levels of Scouts: Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Venture Scouts and Varsity Scouts. A higher level of qualification is required for members of the Venturing program which is defined as follows:
Venturing is a year-round program for young men and women who are 14 (and have completed the eighth grade) through 20 years of age to provide positive experiences through exciting and meaningful youth-run activities that help them pursue their special interests, grow by teaching others, and develop leadership skills.
Sea Scouting
Sea Scouts is a specialized segment of the Venturing program, which was organized to address members' boating skills and promote knowledge of our maritime heritage. Swimming, lifesaving, first aid, Coast Guard Auxiliary Sailing and Seamanship, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation courses are taught with the ship by its officers.
Their shooting sports award philosophy and requirements are:
Venturing Shooting Sports Outstanding Achievement Award
From MeritBadgeDotOrg
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Venturing Shooting Sports Outstanding Achievement Award. Medal is pinned immediately above the seam of the left pocket.
Venturing Shooting Sports Outstanding Achievement Award. Medal is pinned immediately above the seam of the left pocket.
Contents
[hide]
* 1 Award requirements
o 1.1 Procedure
* 2 Notes
* 3 Help with these requirements
* 4 See also
* 5 External links
Award requirements
Awarded to Ranger candidates who complete five of the shooting disciplines within the Shooting Sports (Ranger Award elective).
Procedure
While working on the Ranger Shooting Sports elective, Venturers are required to complete one of the following disciplines:
* Air pistol
* Air rifle
* Archery
* Muzzle-loading rifle
* Shotgun
* Pistol
* Small bore rifle
However, those completing five of these seven disciplines will earn the Venturing Shooting Sports Outstanding Achievement Award. Recipients are awarded a medal and certificate.
Notes
This award is sponsored by many companies and organizations in the shooting sports industry to recognize outstanding achievement in shooting sports.
Our rough equivalent is Master-at-Arms. From your quotes/info, it seems that American scouts have had the actual hunting taken out ~ which is a pity.
BTW, until recently I was a qualified NRSA 'instructorcoachtype thing' ~ hence my interest.
santaman2000
13-02-2011, 02:49
Our rough equivalent is Master-at-Arms. From your quotes/info, it seems that American scouts have had the actual hunting taken out ~ which is a pity.
BTW, until recently I was a qualified NRSA 'instructorcoachtype thing' ~ hence my interest.
Yeah, the hunting part does seem to have been gutted but I'm afraid we're not as far off as we're going to be. It seems from this thread that a hunting requirement has not only been removed in the UK but it is actively discouraged. I fear we are moving in that direction also. I am also a Life Member of the NRA and retired from the forces after 21+ years and retired again after 12+ years in law enforcement. Add to that that I grew up in the countryside hunting, fishing and generally enjoying an outdoor environment so I to have a keen interest in hunting and bows & firearms in general.
... It seems from this thread that a hunting requirement has not only been removed in the UK but it is actively discouraged...
Whether hunting is discouraged will be down to the individual instructor ~ and attempting to pass on _personal leanings_ are a bias that will hold true for most (if not all) disciplines.
From what I've seen, hunting and the role of an air rifle, does get talked about during training sessions.
There are conditions under which a UK scout may hunt as part of an official, organised activity ~ but you need to know and understand the rules.
I think the biggest difference is that here in the UK, hunting doesn't form a great part of our cultural identity ~ and hasn't for a long, long time. IIRC this is primarily due to the land being in private hands rather than being held in trust for the people of the land.
santaman2000
13-02-2011, 19:29
Whether hunting is discouraged will be down to the individual instructor ~ and attempting to pass on _personal leanings_ are a bias that will hold true for most (if not all) disciplines.
From what I've seen, hunting and the role of an air rifle, does get talked about during training sessions.
There are conditions under which a UK scout may hunt as part of an official, organised activity ~ but you need to know and understand the rules.
I think the biggest difference is that here in the UK, hunting doesn't form a great part of our cultural identity ~ and hasn't for a long, long time. IIRC this is primarily due to the land being in private hands rather than being held in trust for the people of the land.
That's what I meant by saying I fear we're going in that direction too. Urbanization is an ongoing fact that I don't see reversing. As you said their is a cultural difference also. I stated on another thread how our hunting demographics are largely reversed. Here we have people of all economic classes hunting but it is largely a lower to middle income activity (we still have subsistence hunters also) while the upper income peoples are gravitating towards golf or similar. Not universally mind you but largely. This in contrast to what I remember UK hunting culture whereas it was an expensive pursuit olny the upper income could afford (or as you said, private landowners) I wish more people on both sides of the Atlantic could have a better understanding of the role of hunting in wildlife management. It tends to deteriorate into a more emotional and less rational argument here.
i would think that the knife throwing would be a no no..
Not banned but needs to be carefully run in correct context with the correct tools.
but can a knife be worn on the belt during flag break etc. if the scout is allowed to bring it along to meetings to use during the meeting,but has nothing to do with uniform?
A sheath knife is no longer part of the uniform of TSA and so no.
UK Scouts don't hunt.
The TSA (there are other Scouts associations in the UK) does not even allow shooting at animal shaped targets.
santaman2000
27-02-2011, 03:40
Not banned but needs to be carefully run in correct context with the correct tools.
A sheath knife is no longer part of the uniform of TSA and so no.
The TSA (there are other Scouts associations in the UK) does not even allow shooting at animal shaped targets.
That's why we were discussing hunting. I had asked how they got their hunting merit badge if they can't even shoot at animal shaped targets. Originally someone had asked about field archery.
Also, to add to the info santaman2000 has posted regarding the Venturing Ranger Award, there is an actual hunting elective the Venture Scout can choose in earning this award. The hunting elective requirements are...
Hunting (Ranger Award elective) requirements
Requirement 1. Hunter education and enforcement
a. Successfully complete a hunter education course offered by your state wildlife/conservation agency.
b. Learn and explain the requirements to become a volunteer hunter education instructor in your state.
c. Explain how to report a wildlife-related violation to the appropriate law enforcement agency.
Requirement 2. Do (a), (b), or (c).
a. Successfully complete a bowhunter education course offered by your state or the National Bowhunter Education Foundation.
b. Successfully complete a National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association Rifle Basic course.
c. Participate in a National Rifle Association-International Hunter Education Association Youth Hunter Education Challenge event sponsored by your state.
Requirement 3. Do (a), (b), or (c).
a. Assist a certified hunter education instructor with a hunter education course.
b. Either plan or assist in putting on a National Hunting and Fishing Day program.
c. Talk with a game warden/ conservation officer about his/her job. If possible, observe/assist at a game check station in your state.
Requirement 4. Plan and carry out a hunting trip approved by an Advisor.
Requirement 5. Make a tabletop display or presentation on what you have learned for your crew, another crew, a Cub or Boy Scout group, or another youth group.
Source:
Venturer / Ranger Handbook (BSA Supply No. 33494)
So, if the Scout chooses this elective, then actual hunting is a part of the requirements.
YIS,
Gordy
In the BSA, Scouts learn how to use wood's tools (knife, saw and axe) and the privilege to carry and use them at Scouting activities, by earning a Totin' Chip card. (BSA Supply No. 34397)
From the reverse of the card -
This certification grants a Scout the right to carry and use woods tools. The Scout must show his Scout leader, or someone designated by his leader, that he understands his responsibility to do the following:
1. Read and understand woods tools use and safety rules from the Boy Scout Handbook.
2. Demonstrate proper handling, care, and use of the pocket knife, ax, and saw.
3. Use the knife, ax, and saw as tools, not playthings.
4. Respect all safety rules to protect others.
5. Respect property. Cut living and dead trees only with permission and with good reason.
6. Subscribe to the Outdoor Code.
The Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibility.
The BSA does not have an "official policy" on sheath knives, though many Council camps do not allow them. Here is the BSA's "guidelines" on knives. This is taken from The Guide to Safe Scouting available online at the BSA's official website.
A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.
Remember—knives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.
YIS,
Gordy
santaman2000
28-02-2011, 03:26
In the BSA, Scouts learn how to use wood's tools (knife, saw and axe) and the privilege to carry and use them at Scouting activities, by earning a Totin' Chip card. (BSA Supply No. 34397)
From the reverse of the card -
This certification grants a Scout the right to carry and use woods tools. The Scout must show his Scout leader, or someone designated by his leader, that he understands his responsibility to do the following:
1. Read and understand woods tools use and safety rules from the Boy Scout Handbook.
2. Demonstrate proper handling, care, and use of the pocket knife, ax, and saw.
3. Use the knife, ax, and saw as tools, not playthings.
4. Respect all safety rules to protect others.
5. Respect property. Cut living and dead trees only with permission and with good reason.
6. Subscribe to the Outdoor Code.
The Scout's "Totin' Rights" can be taken from him if he fails in his responsibility.
The BSA does not have an "official policy" on sheath knives, though many Council camps do not allow them. Here is the BSA's "guidelines" on knives. This is taken from The Guide to Safe Scouting available online at the BSA's official website.
A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility.
Remember—knives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft.
YIS,
Gordy
Thanks G. I want to add a couple of things myself.
1st: That last statement about not being allowed on commercial arcraft is a bit misleading. They ARE allowed but only in locked baggage that is checked in to the cargo compartment and not accesable to the passengers. They are NOT allowed as part of your carry-on.
2nd: Happy Birthday to the BSA!!! This month they turned 101 years old. Last night I celebrated the event with my Godson at the Cub Scouts annual Blue & Gold Banquet where he was awarded his Sr. Webelos rank. Thank you Baden Powell. Thank you to the leaders, sponsers, parents and supporters of The Florida Gulf Coast Council, Pack 530 and Den 4.
P.S. Gordon, are you still involved in Scouting/Venturing?
So now you can see that there are few differences between the TSA and BSA.
There are a lot more association out there too.
Thanks for the Spam reporting goodjob